One suggestion for the Ninja (other than flank, Flank, FLANK!) is to take the Offensive Defense rogue talent, it provide a scaling dodge bonus to AC anbd if he's flanking with Summons or the Slayer, he should be able to get it off almost every single round, it can really push his AC into ridiculous levels.
I can suggest, but can't play their toons for them. I told the Slayer that the +1 Shield AC feat is kinda useless, I think he still took it.
I can suggest ingame things for strategy, not builds.
|
I'm pretty sure you're using that achievement feat incorrectly. The 1000 hp healing is a PREREQUISITE i.e. he can't take that feat until he meets the requirements. The GM should let him replace that with a useful feat, but continue to keep track of healing. Once he hits the PREREQUISITE 1000hp, then he can CONSIDER taking it. By that point a maxxed cure spell will be a drop in the bucket anyway and he'll finally realize why combat healing is a trap. He needs to contribute.
I'm pretty sure you're using that achievement feat incorrectly. The 1000 hp healing is a PREREQUISITE i.e. he can't take that feat until he meets the requirements. The GM should let him replace that with a useful feat, but continue to keep track of healing. Once he hits the PREREQUISITE 1000hp, then he can CONSIDER taking it. By that point a maxxed cure spell will be a drop in the bucket anyway and he'll finally realize why combat healing is a trap. He needs to contribute.
Well, maybe, again, not my toon. I'm not gonna argue against the GM on that. Already tried for the Shield thing, and it gets annoying.
I don't think they will realize in combat healing sucks. I'm just hoping he starts using more Buffs spell and CC, which you guys provided a great list of.
I mean, Summons are great, but unless you have feats for it, they're kinda on the weak side.
If I can make him use Shield Other, Bless and some level 2 buffs which I don't know, things gonna get better.
Hold Person looks great, at least much better than CMW
I'm pretty sure you're using that achievement feat incorrectly. The 1000 hp healing is a PREREQUISITE i.e. he can't take that feat until he meets the requirements. The GM should let him replace that with a useful feat, but continue to keep track of healing. Once he hits the PREREQUISITE 1000hp, then he can CONSIDER taking it. By that point a maxxed cure spell will be a drop in the bucket anyway and he'll finally realize why combat healing is a trap. He needs to contribute.
This looks right to me. This feat shouldn't be taking up a feat slot until after the prerequisites are met.
Replace it with Mystic Healing! :-P
Can the oracle hold a long spear and threaten with it and help flank with the ninja &/or the slayer? He doesn't have to hit things with it.
Or maybe even a fauchard or some other reach trip weapon? Since he won't be making attack rolls with it, the non-proficiency penalty isn't going matter.
Wands of cool 1st level spells (with no Save DCs!) are really good for spontaneous casters, too. Bless, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, endure elements, protection from chaos/evil/good/law&order, etc.
You can do TWF and still hit. TWF actually does more damage than Two handed weapons eventually, but that assumes no DR is in play.
What I did with my slayer was take the TWF tree, but I stayed two handed until I felt like my TWF style would match it. I also tried to get flanks, but of course it takes two to flank, and if the ninja isnt cooperating then the slayer is better off two-handing for a few more levels.
Try houseruling a CLW wand. Instead of rolling for each charge used, just give it a healing pool based on the average of dice rolled. 4x50=200 hp of healing that can be used as needed.
Replace it with Mystic Healing! :-P
Can the oracle hold a long spear and threaten with it and help flank with the ninja &/or the slayer? He doesn't have to hit things with it.
Or maybe even a fauchard or some other reach trip weapon? Since he won't be making attack rolls with it, the non-proficiency penalty isn't going matter.Wands of cool 1st level spells (with no Save DCs!) are really good for spontaneous casters, too. Bless, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, endure elements, protection from chaos/evil/good/law&order, etc.
If I can convince him to drop his shield, sure, he can wield Reach weapons.
That was going to be my argument against him ingame, why is he using Medium Armor+Shield since he's not engaging in melee/frontlines combat. He's just limiting his movement for nothing. Just wear a Chainshirt and you're done. I could even cast Mage Armor on Him if he buys a Pearl of Power.
You can do TWF and still hit. TWF actually does more damage than Two handed weapons eventually, but that assumes no DR is in play.
What I did with my slayer was take the TWF tree, but I stayed two handed until I felt like my TWF style would match it. I also tried to get flanks, but of course it takes two to flank, and if the ninja isnt cooperating then the slayer is better off two-handing for a few more levels.
TWF requires a ridiculous amount of to-hit to outshine two-handed weapons, and requires all 8 attacks to hit, with Power Attack (or Piranha Strike), and full Strength on every attack. Unless you're rocking a +100 to hit, and can negate Natural 1's, it's not gonna happen.
It also requires an inane 19 Dexterity unless you're a Ranger and decide to pick them up, ignoring Pre-requisites (in which case you still need Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, et. al., and they still have high Dexterity pre-requisites), which means you need to be MAD to take them, and most builds, if not all builds, can't afford to do that.
This also means that, unless you're a full BAB class with on-hit effects (such as Slayers and Paladins), TWF is a giant trap in the early levels. You shouldn't even consider performing TWF until 11th level, at the earliest, where you'll have feasible access to all of the TWF feats you'll need (such as Double Slice, TWF feat chain, Two Weapon Rend, Power Attack), have a fairly decent amount of to-hit, and that takes up every normal feat up to and including 11th level, just to stay "relevant" to Two-Handed Weapons. I'm not even including feats like Hammer the Gap (which would also be necessary to stay relevant), Weapon Focii, et. al.
At level 4 the Ninja is at 3 BAB + 3 DEX = 6 Attack bonus, doing TWF it's a rocking +4/+4, honestly it's not really high.
And damage only does 8d6 if he connects all attacks, so I'm not really a fan of TWF, not even for full bab classes, at least early levels.
Never seen TWF do great damage in my games.
Never seen TWF do great damage in my games.
The only time I've seen it rock was a surprise attack against a Dex Magus followed by a full attack that also had the Magus flat footed. Generally it tends to be flurry of misses.
He's lacking Dexterity for his build to be effective. In the early levels, your Attribute Modifier is your #1 source for Attack Bonuses and Damage Bonuses. In the higher levels, it's still a pretty damn big source of your power. Not pumping it up almost damns you in the early game, and can very well screw you over in the late game as well.
Let's presume 20 point buy, and he chose Hobgoblin (it's a damn effective Stealth race, with +4 Racial Bonus to Stealth, +2 Dexterity and Constitution with no stat penalties, Darkvision, et. al., perfect for a Dex-based Ninja/UCRogue build).
He should have:
Strength 13
Dexterity 20 (18 + 2)
Constitution 14 (12 + 2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 8
The 13 Strength is for Power Attack. If he's TWF, he could dump Strength down to 10 and snatch Piranha Strike, though that requires Weapon Finesse to work, and either increase his Constitution for more survivability, increase Intelligence for more skills (but let's face it, 6 Skill points per level without having to be the face is more than enough), or boost Wisdom so he doesn't fail that crucial Will save. Presuming average hit dice and HP FCB, he should have 33 HP, which is somewhat durable, considering he's only D8 Hit Dice and uses Leather Armor. His Reflex Saves would be at +9, which is insane for 4th level (Most DCs will be 14-15, tops, which means he'll make most of them, and should have Evasion too). For AC, we're looking at 19, which isn't bad considering he's using Light Armor, and 15 of it is Touch AC.
We also said he's 4th level, which results in 6,000 gold WBL, meaning he can have 2 +1 Weapons, +1 Armor, and a Cloak of Resistance +1, which is more than appropriate for a character of his level.
At that level, he should have 3 BAB + 5 Dexterity + 1 Weapon - 2 TWF - 1 Power Attack/Piranha Strike = +6/+6. Not including Flanking, which would result in +8/+8; if he just wants Sneak Attacks, he can simply dump Piranha Strike, as it's only +1/2 damage, as 2D6 (average 7 damage) will definitely outweigh Piranha Strike benefits. Even minimum damage, Piranha Strike will only be equal to your Sneak Attack damage, so I'd only apply Piranha Strike if the enemy has garbage for AC.
Everyone on your party that goes into melee should be taking the Outflank feat, which doubles your Flanking bonuses, and any critical hit made on that enemy (come on Kukris and Nodachis!) results in providing an Attack of Opportunity for your flank buddy to take for free, which means more Sneak Attacks, more damage, etc. I understand Teamwork feats seem lame, as they require everyone to take it, but the way I see it, if you're going to be in melee with the usual suspects, I don't see a reason to not maximize those benefits. Plus, a Slayer and a Ninja, each with Sneak Attack damage? Come on, that's the perfect combination for Flank buddying.
There's also Improved Outflank, which triples your Flank bonuses, and Criticals deny enemies their Dexterity Bonus for 1 round (which means it's much easier to hit those enemies), but I wouldn't take it unless you also take the Gang Up feat, which allows you to flank without being in the proper position to flank, but requires 3 allies to do so.
|
One suggestion for the Ninja (other than flank, Flank, FLANK!) is to take the Offensive Defense rogue talent, it provide a scaling dodge bonus to AC anbd if he's flanking with Summons or the Slayer, he should be able to get it off almost every single round, it can really push his AC into ridiculous levels.I can suggest, but can't play their toons for them. I told the Slayer that the +1 Shield AC feat is kinda useless, I think he still took it.
I can suggest ingame things for strategy, not builds.
wasn't offensive defense nerfed or forbidden for unchained rogues?
It wasn't nerfed, in a sense, any more than it was clarified like any other similar subject.
The general rule is that if bonuses stack with themselves (i.e. Dodge with Dodge, Circumstance with Circumstance, etc.), they cannot use the same source, otherwise they won't stack. This is consistent with the Double Attributes to one given roll/statistic FAQ, which says just that, and I believe there is a FAQ that specifically calls out Same Source subjects don't stack with themselves.
In the example of Offensive Defense, the most you'd ever get out of that is a +1, because you can't stack the +1 from one instance of Offensive Defense with another instance of Offensive Defense, as they're from the same source (the Offensive Defense Rogue talent). If there was text saying the bonuses stack with themselves, then he would have a point. Lacking that text, you'd only ever get a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, because you can't stack the same source effects on top of each other.
The reason Offensive Defense isn't legal for the Unchained Rogue is you get something similar but better in Unchained Rogue.
|
Ok I checked again: Offensive Defense is not legal for an Unchained Rogue. You can still take it with the core rogue, if you intend to build a non-damage oriented rogue.
Yep, exactly right. But given the party member in question is a Ninja it's a great fit for a party that seems to be having real trouble staying alive and needs to focus on that somewhat, it should work out pretty well. I'd also hardly say taking it makes you a, "non-damage oriented rogue", it takes up the rider slot on your sneak attack, which if we're looking only at damage is Powerful Sneak, Bleeding maybe, etc. nothing that is going to add a huge amount to your overall damage, and certainly a small enough sacrifice to make when the alternative seems to be constant TPKs, a dead character does 0 dpr after all.
In the example of Offensive Defense, the most you'd ever get out of that is a +1, because you can't stack the +1 from one instance of Offensive Defense with another instance of Offensive Defense, as they're from the same source (the Offensive Defense Rogue talent). If there was text saying the bonuses stack with themselves, then he would have a point. Lacking that text, you'd only ever get a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, because you can't stack the same source effects on top of each other.
Unless I missed another faq that's not at all how I read it, they state that multiple applications of Offensive Defense don't stack but the ability itself says +1 AC dodge bonus per dice of sneak attack, you roll 4 dice, you get +4 AC. A single sneak attack is one source, that source rolls 4 dice and so grants the 4 AC (for example), there is nothing about that not being the case as far as I'm aware.
Ok I checked again: Offensive Defense is not legal for an Unchained Rogue. You can still take it with the core rogue, if you intend to build a non-damage oriented rogue.Yep, exactly right. But given the party member in question is a Ninja it's a great fit for a party that seems to be having real trouble staying alive and needs to focus on that somewhat, it should work out pretty well. I'd also hardly say taking it makes you a, "non-damage oriented rogue", it takes up the rider slot on your sneak attack, which if we're looking only at damage is Powerful Sneak, Bleeding maybe, etc. nothing that is going to add a huge amount to your overall damage, and certainly a small enough sacrifice to make when the alternative seems to be constant TPKs, a dead character does 0 dpr after all.
In the example of Offensive Defense, the most you'd ever get out of that is a +1, because you can't stack the +1 from one instance of Offensive Defense with another instance of Offensive Defense, as they're from the same source (the Offensive Defense Rogue talent). If there was text saying the bonuses stack with themselves, then he would have a point. Lacking that text, you'd only ever get a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, because you can't stack the same source effects on top of each other.Unless I missed another faq that's not at all how I read it, they state that multiple applications of Offensive Defense don't stack but the ability itself says +1 AC dodge bonus per dice of sneak attack, you roll 4 dice, you get +4 AC. A single sneak attack is one source, that source rolls 4 dice and so grants the 4 AC (for example), there is nothing about that not being the case as far as I'm aware.
So I misread the +1 per dice thing.
It still doesn't stack with itself.
This also gets ridiculous with things like Sap Adept and Sap Master.
In the example of Offensive Defense, the most you'd ever get out of that is a +1, because you can't stack the +1 from one instance of Offensive Defense with another instance of Offensive Defense, as they're from the same source (the Offensive Defense Rogue talent). If there was text saying the bonuses stack with themselves, then he would have a point. Lacking that text, you'd only ever get a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, because you can't stack the same source effects on top of each other.
First, wtf? If you hit with a 2d6 sneak attack, you get a +2 dodge bonus.
Second, Offensive Defense actually does stack with itself, even from multiple attacks. The stacking rules state that typed bonuses (exept dodge bonuses) don't stack, and untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source. As written, the "same source" thing only applies to untyped bonuses.Note that this is clearly not intended and no reasonable GM would allow it. But even as intended, it's a good rogue talent.
TWF requires a ridiculous amount of to-hit to outshine two-handed weapons, and requires all 8 attacks to hit, with Power Attack (or Piranha Strike), and full Strength on every attack. Unless you're rocking a +100 to hit, and can negate Natural 1's, it's not gonna happen.
This is simply wrong. You don't need ridiculous amounts of to-hit, what you need is a good amount of to-damage (hint: sneak attack is a good start). Power Attack/Piranha Strike is actually crap for WTF, because in most cases, it actually lowers the average offhand damage and the main hand damage's increase is not big enough to make the feat worth it.
In the example of Offensive Defense, the most you'd ever get out of that is a +1, because you can't stack the +1 from one instance of Offensive Defense with another instance of Offensive Defense, as they're from the same source (the Offensive Defense Rogue talent). If there was text saying the bonuses stack with themselves, then he would have a point. Lacking that text, you'd only ever get a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC, because you can't stack the same source effects on top of each other.First, wtf? If you hit with a 2d6 sneak attack, you get a +2 dodge bonus.
Second, Offensive Defense actually does stack with itself, even from multiple attacks. The stacking rules state that typed bonuses (exept dodge bonuses) don't stack, and untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source. As written, the "same source" thing only applies to untyped bonuses.
Note that this is clearly not intended and no reasonable GM would allow it. But even as intended, it's a good rogue talent.TWF requires a ridiculous amount of to-hit to outshine two-handed weapons, and requires all 8 attacks to hit, with Power Attack (or Piranha Strike), and full Strength on every attack. Unless you're rocking a +100 to hit, and can negate Natural 1's, it's not gonna happen.This is simply wrong. You don't need ridiculous amounts of to-hit, what you need is a good amount of to-damage (hint: sneak attack is a good start). Power Attack/Piranha Strike is actually crap for WTF, because in most cases, it actually lowers the average offhand damage and the main hand damage's increase is not big enough to make the feat worth it.
Please read my follow-up post; I acknowledged that it's +1 per dice. Moving on...
I'm fairly certain that regardless of things being untyped, or being normally stackable, effects from the same source shouldn't stack unless they explicitly state otherwise. This is the reason why you can't cast Haste over and over and get a bunch of free, full BAB attacks. I understand you said that it's obviously not intended to work that way, but even from a RAW standpoint, I highly doubt that's how it works.
The hell you don't need to-hit. You're already -2 down from the two-handed martial, you're 3/4 BAB (while he's probably full BAB), you spent at least two or three feats (whereas he's spent one, and has more feats to spend on things like Weapon Focus), there's 3 reasons why you're getting a Flurry of Misses instead of a Flurry of Sneak Attack (Criticals). Not to mention, the PC in question is lacking in his to-hit attribute, which means his damage dice aren't going to amount to jack when he isn't hitting worth a damn. Also, his Flank bonuses are just as useful for him as they are for the full BAB two-handed martial.
We haven't even gotten into Iterative territory yet, which means your newer attacks are at -5, or more. Also, being 3/4, you're lacking an entire attack that a two-handed fighter would probably be able to hit with if he's optimized.
I'll go ahead and say that Power Attack/Piranha Strike may not be worth it most of the time, especially in the early game, because of the to-hit deficiencies, but if a TWFer is optimized with a lot of to-hit, and adequate damage bonuses, Power Attack/Piranha Strike and Hammer the Gap would be the next steps up for increasing damage.
|
|
So I misread the +1 per dice thing.
It still doesn't stack with itself.
This also gets ridiculous with things like Sap Adept and Sap Master.
No worries, I've misread things more times than I can remember!
The thing that makes it so good is that it scales, hell by 11th level you're getting +6 AC that stacks with everything just for doing what you were going to anyways and attacking! It can also stack with Befuddling Strike as whilst you can only apply one sneak attack affecting talent at a time, you can use different ones on each attack, so if this Ninja is really needing more AC hit with offensive defense first, then befuddling strike, at 4th level this would give him +3 AC and the enemy -2 to hit... a 5 point difference in his chance to be hit from before and he's still hitting just the same!
For TWF getting + to hit is definitely the biggest boost and I'd agree that Piranha Strike and Power Attack are often not worth it for those builds, stack all the hit you can and then if you find you're not missing with iteratives look at taking those feats. Also remember an often forgotten source of extra to hit for a Ninja is +2 from being invisible (and also no Dex to their AC) thanks to Vanishing Trick and eventually Invisible Blade, which can make TWF much more viable for Ninjas over others.
Remember he's a Ninja, he can't dump CHA, otherwise all of this ki powers are useless.
You can do TWF and still hit. TWF actually does more damage than Two handed weapons eventually, but that assumes no DR is in play.
What I did with my slayer was take the TWF tree, but I stayed two handed until I felt like my TWF style would match it. I also tried to get flanks, but of course it takes two to flank, and if the ninja isnt cooperating then the slayer is better off two-handing for a few more levels.
TWF requires a ridiculous amount of to-hit to outshine two-handed weapons, and requires all 8 attacks to hit, with Power Attack (or Piranha Strike), and full Strength on every attack. Unless you're rocking a +100 to hit, and can negate Natural 1's, it's not gonna happen.
It also requires an inane 19 Dexterity unless you're a Ranger and decide to pick them up, ignoring Pre-requisites (in which case you still need Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, et. al., and they still have high Dexterity pre-requisites), which means you need to be MAD to take them, and most builds, if not all builds, can't afford to do that.
This also means that, unless you're a full BAB class with on-hit effects (such as Slayers and Paladins), TWF is a giant trap in the early levels. You shouldn't even consider performing TWF until 11th level, at the earliest, where you'll have feasible access to all of the TWF feats you'll need (such as Double Slice, TWF feat chain, Two Weapon Rend, Power Attack), have a fairly decent amount of to-hit, and that takes up every normal feat up to and including 11th level, just to stay "relevant" to Two-Handed Weapons. I'm not even including feats like Hammer the Gap (which would also be necessary to stay relevant), Weapon Focii, et. al.
TWF does more with average numbers. I'll do the math for you later.
Remember he's a Ninja, he can't dump CHA, otherwise all of this ki powers are useless.
I thought that was Wisdom based. I seriously don't understand why a Ninja has to be Charisma-based for his Ki, when every other form of Ki is Wisdom-based. I want to know who the wisecrack at Paizo is for creating an inconsistency like that (it's like one normal Spike Pit dealing Bludgeoning damage instead of the Piercing that every other Spike Pit would otherwise do, with zero mechanical difference).
At any rate, it's a minor fix, since he's Dexterity-based anyway. Just switch the Strength and Charisma stats around (he's carrying Leather Armor, two Wakizashis, a Composite Bow, some rope/grappling hooks, and Thief's Tools, which puts him right below his Light load threshold).
Needless to say, his level 4 Stat would go into Charisma to have a +2 Charisma modifier, if he really needs it. The rest goes into Dexterity.
...That Ki stuff is gonna bother me for the rest of my days now...
Aaaand, I'd like to point out that the same source not stacking applies to all sources of damage, named or otherwise, unless specifically noted. It just tends to be the defining thing for untyped bonuses.
==Aelryinth
I tried to use older builds, but I had trouble finding any.
The power attacking build with a two handed weapon is ahead if power attacking and favored target is in play. In all other situations Two weapon rend pulls TWF'ing ahead.
I tried to use older builds, but I had trouble finding any.
The power attacking build with a two handed weapon is ahead if power attacking and favored target is in play. In all other situations Two weapon rend pulls TWF'ing ahead.
Pretty sure Ninja's STR is not above 10, even with 20 pt build.
What scrolls/wands should I tell the Oracle to buy? I'm gonna speak ingame/out of game about our lack of cohesion and say that we need better strategy and input from the oracle otherwise we're gonna keep dying.
I also have an ingame reason, because we actually died, and I don't want that to happen again.
A good list of scrolls to have would be great, so I can tell the Oracle to buy them and make him more involved overall.
Also, I'm gonna try to convince him about the 2H Reach Weapon, so he can threaten being far from the enemy, otherwise he's gonna need tons of weapons if he's gonna cast in combat.
He has Safe Curing, which means he doesn't provoke while casting Cure spells.
Remember he's a Ninja, he can't dump CHA, otherwise all of this ki powers are useless.I thought that was Wisdom based. I seriously don't understand why a Ninja has to be Charisma-based for his Ki, when every other form of Ki is Wisdom-based. I want to know who the wisecrack at Paizo is for creating an inconsistency like that (it's like one normal Spike Pit dealing Bludgeoning damage instead of the Piercing that every other Spike Pit would otherwise do, with zero mechanical difference).
At any rate, it's a minor fix, since he's Dexterity-based anyway. Just switch the Strength and Charisma stats around (he's carrying Leather Armor, two Wakizashis, a Composite Bow, some rope/grappling hooks, and Thief's Tools, which puts him right below his Light load threshold).
Needless to say, his level 4 Stat would go into Charisma to have a +2 Charisma modifier, if he really needs it. The rest goes into Dexterity.
...That Ki stuff is gonna bother me for the rest of my days now...
Ninja ki being Charisma rather than Wisdom is because unlike monks, who gain usage of their ki through monastic training and attuning their minds and bodies, ninjas treat their ki as a tool and call it up through force of personality.
...Be glad there's no PF feat like Kung-fu Genius, which allowed monks to use Int for all of their Wis-based abilities...
I tried to use older builds, but I had trouble finding any.
The power attacking build with a two handed weapon is ahead if power attacking and favored target is in play. In all other situations Two weapon rend pulls TWF'ing ahead.
Pretty sure Ninja's STR is not above 10, even with 20 pt build.
What scrolls/wands should I tell the Oracle to buy? I'm gonna speak ingame/out of game about our lack of cohesion and say that we need better strategy and input from the oracle otherwise we're gonna keep dying.
I also have an ingame reason, because we actually died, and I don't want that to happen again.
A good list of scrolls to have would be great, so I can tell the Oracle to buy them and make him more involved overall.
Also, I'm gonna try to convince him about the 2H Reach Weapon, so he can threaten being far from the enemy, otherwise he's gonna need tons of weapons if he's gonna cast in combat.He has Safe Curing, which means he doesn't provoke while casting Cure spells.
I wasn't talking about the ninja. I was saying the slayer's TWF will eventually pull ahead of a slayer's two handed weapon fighting.
With the ninja a two handed weapon is better.|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding the Oracles refusal to do damage... maneuvers. Get him a sickle, it's a simple weapon, he threatens, every time he gets an AoO or has no spells he wants to cast that round he makes a trip attempt. If he fails he just drops the sickle, if he provokes, he has great AC and it means the damage dealers can move into flanks without risking an AoO in most cases. If he doesn't want to provoke get him a long spear and use that (though he risks tripping himself if he fails badly then).
I'm fairly certain that regardless of things being untyped, or being normally stackable, effects from the same source shouldn't stack unless they explicitly state otherwise. This is the reason why you can't cast Haste over and over and get a bunch of free, full BAB attacks.
Spells have a seperate ruling for that (CRB p208): "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves."
The hell you don't need to-hit.
I did not say that. I disagreed on the word "ridiculous" that you used. Hit chance and damage heavily interact with each other (obviously) - one is nearly worthless without the other. 50% chance to do 50 damage is on average better than 95% chance to do 20 damage.
(...) but if a TWFer is optimized with a lot of to-hit, and adequate damage bonuses, Power Attack/Piranha Strike and Hammer the Gap would be the next steps up for increasing damage.
Unless your to-hit is so high that you don't suffer the full malus (or you need to pierce some high DR), PA/PS is a weak feat for TWF at best, and (depending on the target AC) often actually disadvantageous.
Aaaand, I'd like to point out that the same source not stacking applies to all sources of damage, named or otherwise, unless specifically noted. It just tends to be the defining thing for untyped bonuses.
Presuming you mean bonuses*, not damage: Source?
*Seriously, that word just looks wrong. I'm gonna go with the proper plural and say "boni" from now on!
It's the default rule - look it up. I believe only dodge and circumstance bonuses stack, unless explicitly stated for other bonuses. Thus, multiple morale bonuses to the same effect don't stack.
The 'same source' rule was added in on top of this so that, for instance, you couldn't get multiple untyped bonuses to your saves from Cha. They actually had to stick that one in the FAQ because of the abuse that was going on. So, getting multiple dodge bonuses from the same feat doesn't stack unless the feat specifically says it does. Getting multiple dodge bonuses from several feats DOES stack, unlike most bonuses.
People were getting double and triple bonuses from stats, but becuase it was different spells/feats/class abilities, claiming they all stacked. Same source rule said Cha was the common source, so, no, they didn't stack.
Now, if you got a typeless, deflection and morale bonus to AC from Cha, those would stack, by the rules.
==Aelryinth
I'm gonny try not to make this sound too hostile, but you shouldn't tell people to "look it up" when you didn't do so yourself. Offensive Defense is a dodge bonus (circumstance bonus pre errata, btw), so why are you talking about morale boni? And where do you see a "default rule" that typed boni from the same source don't stack? Why are you lecturing me on what I explicitly refered to (and even paraphrased from the rules text) in my second to last post?
The CRB p208 says this (which is what I was refering to in my first post on this page): "Bonus Types: (...) The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). (...) Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."
As you can see, the phrase "same source" only shows up once, in reference to untyped boni. Double CHA to saves doesn't work because it's an untyped bonus (with CHA being the common source)*. Offensive Defense on the other hand is a typed bonus, therefore the same source rule does not apply.
* The FAQ didn't change the stacking rules at all, it merely clarified that the source is not the talent/spell/etc, but the ability score itself.
I'm gonny try not to make this sound too hostile, but you shouldn't tell people to "look it up" when you didn't do so yourself. Offensive Defense is a dodge bonus (circumstance bonus pre errata, btw), so why are you talking about morale boni? And where do you see a "default rule" that typed boni from the same source don't stack? Why are you lecturing me on what I explicitly refered to (and even paraphrased from the rules text) in my second to last post?
The CRB p208 says this (which is what I was refering to in my first post on this page): "Bonus Types: (...) The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). (...) Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."
As you can see, the phrase "same source" only shows up once, in reference to untyped boni. Double CHA to saves doesn't work because it's an untyped bonus (with CHA being the common source)*. Offensive Defense on the other hand is a typed bonus, therefore the same source rule does not apply.
* The FAQ didn't change the stacking rules at all, it merely clarified that the source is not the talent/spell/etc, but the ability score itself.
Does this mean/are you saying that if I attack twice and deal SA damage, I get double AC?
Like 2d6+2d6 SA = +4 AC?
Sounds like the group is having difficulty with some of the characters' abilities being a bit more challenging to use. My suggestion is that when they get TPKed again, they create all-new characters. My suggestion:
* A greatsword-wielding unchained barbarian with a max strength and power attack.
* A bard with a high charisma focusing on bardic performance and buffing spells with the occasional CLW mixed in. Give him/her a bow for some plinking from the back.
* A goblin unchained rogue focusing on two-weapon fighting. Have him be a knife master with the River Rat trait and be a worshipper of Pharasma and taking Deific Obedience. High levels of sneak, acrobatics, and just move him into a flank spot and then murder murder murder.
* A "god wizard" (google Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards) or a summoner (Master Summoner, maybe?)
These should be MUCH easier to play. You can then use your wizard's familiar and/or your goblin to do scouting before you rush in all guns ablazing. The barbarian is simply "Hulk smash". The bard is "play a song, cast a spell, shoot my bow". The rogue just tumbles behind the baddies and then goes chop-chop-chop. The wizard is more complicated, yeah, but the others are simple.
Does this mean/are you saying that if I attack twice and deal SA damage, I get double AC?
Like 2d6+2d6 SA = +4 AC?
As it's written, yes. If a lvl10 rogue (5d6 SA) with imp. TWF hits with all 4 attacks, he gets a +20 dodge bonus to AC. But as I said, there's no way that's intended and it should be houseruled.
|
As it's written, yes. If a lvl10 rogue (5d6 SA) with imp. TWF hits with all 4 attacks, he gets a +20 dodge bonus to AC. But as I said, there's no way that's intended and it should be houseruled.Does this mean/are you saying that if I attack twice and deal SA damage, I get double AC?
Like 2d6+2d6 SA = +4 AC?
Largest key word....IF He is likely to land 2 of his 4 to be reasonable.
*sanders back off mumbling to self rogue's suck dragon dick*
Without reading through all the posts, here are my 2cp:
- You have only one fighter. A ninja is cute, but no tank.
- A ninja not flanking is a joke, that is what he has to do to hit even a few times and he should get skills/feats to achieve a good position. The AC of some of the NPCs in RotR is no joke. We had a rogue (same deal as ninja), and he was happy to hit 2 in 5 times. He was of course going 2-weapon *sigh*
- An oracle (life) is a joke in melee and the only useful contribution is to flank. My damage at 6th level was not noticeable against the paladin *sigh again* My real damage as an oracle came from making the melees hit more often. The huge contra to going into melee with an oracle is that you usually want to be able to cast spells without being threatened (and concentration rolls are a good chance to lose the spell at lower levels).
I don't remember much about Thistlecrown, it was a walk in the park for us (pally, rogue, wizard, monk and oracle). Having 3 melees to buff and play with makes the oracle much better - when I cast bless, every hit that just connects is actually my damage.
On a sidenote, the much maligned combat healing does have it's place :) I can repair a bit with lifelink and channels, but that doesn't help against the large damage spikes from crits. The manyheaded menace, for example, later in the AP did one crit on average per round, one of which almost one-hit the rogue. Or closer to home, the darn female cleric in the AP (2nd part) hit for up to 28 since she had time to buff.
That being said, I admit that casting blade barrier or flamestrike in tandem with the wizard is a solid way of damage prevention (and more fun). But when the enemy gets to shoot back, you occasionally need to be able to heal right there or perish.
* The FAQ didn't change the stacking rules at all, it merely clarified that the source is not the talent/spell/etc, but the ability score itself.
In many cases the source is a spell. What that FAQ did was also add the ability score as a 2nd source. There is nothing in the book to support that. I understand Paizo can't officially errata everything because of the goal of not pushing stuff over to a new page, but this is definitely a rule change(errata).
As an example if spells A and B both give you a +2 untyped bonus to charisma they stack and the source is the spell. However if you try to cast spell A twice they would not stack because they are from the same source(the spell).
I'm gonny try not to make this sound too hostile, but you shouldn't tell people to "look it up" when you didn't do so yourself. Offensive Defense is a dodge bonus (circumstance bonus pre errata, btw), so why are you talking about morale boni? And where do you see a "default rule" that typed boni from the same source don't stack? Why are you lecturing me on what I explicitly refered to (and even paraphrased from the rules text) in my second to last post?
The CRB p208 says this (which is what I was refering to in my first post on this page): "Bonus Types: (...) The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). (...) Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."
As you can see, the phrase "same source" only shows up once, in reference to untyped boni. Double CHA to saves doesn't work because it's an untyped bonus (with CHA being the common source)*. Offensive Defense on the other hand is a typed bonus, therefore the same source rule does not apply.
* The FAQ didn't change the stacking rules at all, it merely clarified that the source is not the talent/spell/etc, but the ability score itself.
Actually, the bonus is considered typed: Charisma. The FAQ says that if an Untyped Bonus refers to an ability score, it effectively becomes that type. Read it again:
...the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
There is also this FAQ right here regarding Temporary Hit Points, that references your same rule page, and says:
Generally,
The best part is, the "same source doesn't stack" portion from the FAQ would apply to things that aren't just straight bonuses either.
Sorry, no Sap Master +120 AC from a full attack shenanigans.
Derklord, you've also got an interestingly bad example, as Dodge bonuses, along with Circumstance bonuses, are the only kind of named bonuses that DO stack, unless they violate the same source rule. So, for instance, Dodge, Mobility and Offensive Defense all stack.
Which Darksol has conveniently provided the page and source thereof.
==Aelryinth
Actually, the bonus is considered typed: Charisma. The FAQ says that if an Untyped Bonus refers to an ability score, it effectively becomes that type.
I really don't see that (the FAQ explicitly calls it an untyped bonus), but it totally doesn't matter. A charisma bonus wouldn't stack with another one due to the same type-rule, while an untyped one with charisma as the common source wouldn't stack due to the same source-rule.
Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
Ok, this get's annoying - what's it whith Paizo and overly narrow language?* What they are referencing in this FAQ is the the rule that I quoted in post 131 and only applies to "spells or magical effects" (note that Offensive Defense is an exeptional ability, not a magical one). There is a ruling in it for non-spell boni ("More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).", yet that one references the other ruling (the one I quoted in post 133). Which brings us back to square one.
Why is it so hard to make an errata that changes "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." to "Bonuses without a type generally stack. Unless otherwise noted, bonuses and other beneficial effects (like temporary hp) from the same source never stack."?*Just like the increase in cast time for metamagiced spells explicitly calls out Sorcerer and Bard (and the spontaneous casting of Clerics and Druids) instead of generally saying "spontaneous casters".
Offensive Defense ERRATA
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8fo1/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced -Players-Guide#v5748eaic9p1m
Moving back to the topic at hand, I don't believe your party composition matters that much (or at all) until you guys work out you're all in this together and get some teamwork happening.
I'm sorta of the mind your GM needs to ease up a little and adapt encounters OR guide the players to be a bit smarter.
Actually, the bonus is considered typed: Charisma. The FAQ says that if an Untyped Bonus refers to an ability score, it effectively becomes that type.I really don't see that (the FAQ explicitly calls it an untyped bonus), but it totally doesn't matter. A charisma bonus wouldn't stack with another one due to the same type-rule, while an untyped one with charisma as the common source wouldn't stack due to the same source-rule.
Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.Ok, this get's annoying - what's it whith Paizo and overly narrow language?* What they are referencing in this FAQ is the the rule that I quoted in post 131 and only applies to "spells or magical effects" (note that Offensive Defense is an exeptional ability, not a magical one). There is a ruling in it for non-spell boni ("More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).", yet that one references the other ruling (the one I quoted in post 133). Which brings us back to square one.
Why is it so hard to make an errata that changes "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." to "Bonuses without a type generally stack. Unless otherwise noted, bonuses and other beneficial effects (like temporary hp) from the same source never stack."?*Just like the increase in cast time for metamagiced spells explicitly calls out Sorcerer and Bard (and the spontaneous casting of Clerics and Druids) instead of generally saying "spontaneous casters".
That FAQ says an Untyped Bonus is considered to be a bonus of the attribute it's boosted with (i.e. Bonus equal to her Charisma = Charisma Bonus) for the purposes of stacking. That means, effectively speaking, a "Bonus equal to her Charisma" is functionally the same as "her Charisma Bonus," and there is zero difference between the two. The thing I don't get is that it uses the term "source" incorrectly, since the source of getting Charisma to your Saves is the class feature, not the ability score. It makes more sense to say that an Untyped Bonus that's keyed off of an attribute becomes typed to that attribute.
Per RAW, you have the con. But quite frankly, that FAQ I mentioned states that the rule you quoted applies to every effect, not just spells (as it references the same page that has the text you bring up), which is grounds for my argument superseding Dodge Bonuses from the same source stacking.
Just because it's in the Spells section (which, by the way, I have no clue why a rule about Bonuses is in the Spell section) doesn't mean it can't have applications outside of just being with spells.
Also, it's hard to errata because they have the book formatted a specific way, and if it's adjusted that much, the format becomes ruined.
If you guys are going to argue about this take to another thread. This has completely derailed from the OP.