Does... any of these come with their respective weapon and armor proficiencies? If I apply the Fighter Creature template on, say, an advanced Medium Fire Elemental, does it gain proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, as well as all types of armors and shields?
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No
But elementals are:
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally
humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all
simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any
form of armor.
So ask your GM to what to do in this case.
If you are the GM, give it a weapon and armor and you are now proficient.
By the rules no. It seems to be an oversight in some way. As proof, the Giantslayer AP uses those templates and the giants still need to take weapon proficiencies.
So ask your GM to what to do in this case.
If you are the GM, give it a weapon and armor and you are now proficient.
Yes, I'm the GM... although I prefer to follow the rules as much as possible to avoid any kind of problem. I could break them and make them my own, but... the rules are already there, saving a lot of work :P
By the rules no. It seems to be an oversight in some way. As proof, the Giantslayer AP uses those templates and the giants still need to take weapon proficiencies.
O... k... That's a bit awkward...
Yeah, James is 100% right.
As the DM, when you stat up your Advanced Fighter Medium Fire Elemental, if you give it a long sword, then he is proficient in long sword.
If you instead gave him a great sword, he will instead be proficient with great swords. So long a it is basically humanoid in shape.
proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry
You are creating the "entry" for a customized monster. Whatever weapons you put in it, it is proficient with them.
You know, as an aside, these class templates (minus the ability score bonus) seem like they could be an interesting way to do an alternative multiclassing system.
Well, ok, granted, I can give it some weapon and armor and BOOM, it's now proficient. However, it's a template... that should give stuff to a creature that doesn't usually have this stuff... and this template doesn't give weapon and armor proficiencies... without bending the rules...
Well, ok, granted, I can give it some weapon and armor and BOOM, it's now proficient. However, it's a template... that should give stuff to a creature that doesn't usually have this stuff... and this template doesn't give weapon and armor proficiencies... without bending the rules...
Why not just give it a level or two of actual fighter and solve the whole issue?
The templates don't give proficiency, which I and others (including yourself it seems) see this as an oversight.
Luckily, since class templates are a GM only tool there should be no real problem tacking the appropriate proficiencies on.
P.S. I'm a proponent of GMs bending and breaking rules however they want for the sake of fun and a smooth story.
The templates don't give proficiency, which I and others (including yourself it seems) see this as an oversight.
Luckily, since class templates are a GM only tool there should be no real problem tacking the appropriate proficiencies on.
P.S. I'm a proponent of GMs bending and breaking rules however they want for the sake of fun and a smooth story.
That's probably what I'll do, but it's pretty weird to omit weapon and armor proficiencies, especially for the fighter. Why should I give the monster feats IN ORDER to have it benefit from a template?
Yeah, yeah, you can argue that I can tack on stuff to a monster, but it works better when designing a monster than applying a template...
The templates don't give proficiency, which I and others (including yourself it seems) see this as an oversight.
Luckily, since class templates are a GM only tool there should be no real problem tacking the appropriate proficiencies on.
P.S. I'm a proponent of GMs bending and breaking rules however they want for the sake of fun and a smooth story.
That's probably what I'll do, but it's pretty weird to omit weapon and armor proficiencies, especially for the fighter. Why should I give the monster feats IN ORDER to have it benefit from a template?
Yeah, yeah, you can argue that I can tack on stuff to a monster, but it works better when designing a monster than applying a template...
I was thinking more of tacking it on to the template rather than the monster.
If we agree that the templates are weird and unfinished without those proficiencies then why not just fill in the gap.
I do feel your pain, I hate seeing Paizo come out with stuff that seems broken or incomplete. But I passed the banging my head against the wall stage a long time ago (or else I would have developed brain damage already).
The templates are designed to add class features to monsters, based on the monster's CR and racial HD.
Monsters with racial HD are already proficient with weapons and armor.
Basically every type of monster that can wield weapons has a line like this under racial traits, "Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry."
So having the templates add weapon proficiency is wasted space, because it can wield any weapon and it is assumed to be proficient in that weapon's use.
What exactly would be the point of granting all martial weapon proficiency, when it is automatically proficient with any martial weapon you decide to give to him?
The templates are designed to add class features to monsters, based on the monster's CR and racial HD.
Monsters with racial HD are already proficient with weapons and armor.
Basically every type of monster that can wield weapons has a line like this under racial traits, "Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry."
So having the templates add weapon proficiency is wasted space, because it can wield any weapon and it is assumed to be proficient in that weapon's use.
What exactly would be the point of granting all martial weapon proficiency, when it is automatically proficient with any martial weapon you decide to give to him?
Because I need a Sif in my life?
Because giants and other racial HD humanoids need live?
And because the line about proficiencies could be read as proficiency with the specific weapons listed in their bestiary entries, not with any and every weapon they manage to get their hands on.
What exactly would be the point of granting all martial weapon proficiency, when it is automatically proficient with any martial weapon you decide to give to him?
Because I consider weapon and armor proficiencies to be actual class features.
These templates are nice to add class features to monsters without giving them class levels, but it's pretty dumb that you have to tweak the rules JUST to make them work.
They don't have it right now (although I know a 3rd-party which does), but that's like having a Gunslinger Class Template, in the same fashion as the 11 templates we currently have, WITHOUT granting the base creature firearms proficiencies.
Sure, I could give an oni a culverin and he's now proficicent with it, but WHY do I need to give it myself when the template should have done it in the first place???
P.S. Replace Culverin with Tetsubo, and you get the same reasoning...
And because the line about proficiencies could be read as proficiency with the specific weapons listed in their bestiary entries, not with any and every weapon they manage to get their hands on.
That argument doesn't really hold up since you are already altering the entry from the Bestiary by adding the template, making a custom monster. This new entry for your custom monster could have what ever weapon you want to give it, and thus proficiency with it.
I don't mean to ignore the first two questions, I just don't understand what you are actually saying in them.
Because I consider weapon and armor proficiencies to be actual class features.
These templates are nice to add class features to monsters without giving them class levels, but it's pretty dumb that you have to tweak the rules JUST to make them work.
They don't have it right now (although I know a 3rd-party which does), but that's like having a Gunslinger Class Template, in the same fashion as the 11 templates we currently have, WITHOUT granting the base creature firearms proficiencies.
Sure, I could give an oni a culverin and he's now proficicent with it, but WHY do I need to give it myself when the template should have done it in the first place???
You don't have to "tweak the rules" to make them work, you just have to follow the rules.
You don't have to do anything yourself, except write down the weapon you want it to use. Then the proficiency rules for the monster type provides proficiency, making it unnecessary for the template to do so.