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Definitely, table variation
Some players/GMs feel that if you pay for a service, the provider should/would guarantee success or return your payment. Sort of a you get what you pay for guarantee, especially if you are using Fame/Prestige Points to charter the service. You are not exactly buying the spell, but moreso buying the results of the spell.
Other players/GMs feel that purchasing services is no different than doing it yourself and carries the same chance of failure.
Some GMs will let you pay more for a higher level caster to increase the chances of success. The CRB has rules for calculating the cost of spell casting services.
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Would you have expected me to be charged?According to the Pathfinder rules? Yes, if you consider that two drinks. No, if it was one.The employee of the bar performed the act of filling a glass of beer twice to give to me.
The employee of the spellcasting service performed the act of casting a spell with no material components on your PC twice for the remove curse to take.
Their job wasn't to remove your condition it was to cast the spell. They don't care if your condition was cleared.
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Their job wasn't to remove your condition it was to cast the spell. They don't care if your condition was cleared.Would you have expected me to be charged?According to the Pathfinder rules? Yes, if you consider that two drinks. No, if it was one.The employee of the bar performed the act of filling a glass of beer twice to give to me.
The employee of the spellcasting service performed the act of casting a spell with no material components on your PC twice for the remove curse to take.
you go to the doctor to treat your cold. He does something to cure you. Next week, you're still sick, so you go back to the doctor, and he treats you again... do you pay him for ONE visit, or for TWO?
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Strictly speaking, yeah, the player may have to go broke and eventually die because they can't afford the number of castings it would take to finally make the DC.
In Society play, there's no such thing as GM fiat where there are rules. My secret wish is that there would be some sort of "rule" allowing GM's some sort of wiggle-room (even with hardset rules) depending on the context. Yes...I'll just keep that wish a secret.
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This shouldn't be subject to table variation. You can absolutely buy a higher caster level spell if you are paying cash. If prestige purchases work automatically there is very little reason to ever do so.
The rules for this are unclear at best, which is why I said expect table variation.
In Society play, there's no such thing as GM fiat where there are rules. My secret wish is that there would be some sort of "rule" allowing GM's some sort of wiggle-room (even with hardset rules) depending on the context. Yes...I'll just keep that wish a secret.
I think you'll find some GMs will hand-waive the die roll and let it auto-succeed. That is essentially GM fiat.
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Just to reinforce Bob's point, here's how I run things at my tables:
1. Any spellcasting service that requires a caster level check does require a roll to be made.
2. All spellcasting services bought with prestige are at minimum caster level.
3. You can use gold to buy the spellcasting service at any level - minimum or above - you want but the cost is calculated per the CRB.
a. I don't give out the DCs automatically but I do suggest some kind of skill check to determine the DC (Heal, Knowledge: Arcana, etc.) or for a particularly unskilled party some other spells (augury, divination, etc.) that might tell them if they should spring for a higher caster level.
b. Probability calculation by the GM is a free service :)
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This shouldn't be subject to table variation. You can absolutely buy a higher caster level spell if you are paying cash. If prestige purchases work automatically there is very little reason to ever do so.The rules for this are unclear at best, which is why I said expect table variation.
In Society play, there's no such thing as GM fiat where there are rules. My secret wish is that there would be some sort of "rule" allowing GM's some sort of wiggle-room (even with hardset rules) depending on the context. Yes...I'll just keep that wish a secret.I think you'll find some GMs will hand-waive the die roll and let it auto-succeed. That is essentially GM fiat.
Correct. It's just not considered legal.
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The "legality" is just as subjective as a GM allowing a to hit roll that would ordinarily fail to hit instead, a failed save to succeed, or a skill check. Remember, GMs certainly have a modicum of discretion to "fudge" die rolls if they feel it is necessary for the table. Saying that is illegal is a bit harse, but some people have a militant opinion of fudging die rolls so YMMV.
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This is pretty much what I do with one exception. If you have a party member capable of casting the relevant caster level dependant cure and they can hit the DC eventually then I will generally handwave it.Just to reinforce Bob's point, here's how I run things at my tables:
1. Any spellcasting service that requires a caster level check does require a roll to be made.
2. All spellcasting services bought with prestige are at minimum caster level.
3. You can use gold to buy the spellcasting service at any level - minimum or above - you want but the cost is calculated per the CRB.a. I don't give out the DCs automatically but I do suggest some kind of skill check to determine the DC (Heal, Knowledge: Arcana, etc.) or for a particularly unskilled party some other spells (augury, divination, etc.) that might tell them if they should spring for a higher caster level.
b. Probability calculation by the GM is a free service :)
Pretty much this, with the proviso that they won't die from the effect of the disease in a day or so.
IOW: Don't dump Con!
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Your Con is irrelevant when you need a nat 20 to succeed on the save, and the cure is 2 consecutive saves. :P
Unless it kills them in a day or so, the party Cleric/Oracle/what-have-you should have time to fill their spell slots with Remove Whatever...
And Con dump is all-too-often, in my experience, why a PC dies before a cure or heal can be applied. Nothing is worse than going from full health to Con dead in a single hit.
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Would you have expected me to be charged?According to the Pathfinder rules? Yes, if you consider that two drinks. No, if it was one.
Lets use a better analogy.
If you went to a hospital with a snake bite, you'd have to pay for anti-venom. If for some reason the anti-venom didn't work the first time (and you didn't die from it or the poison) and you needed another anti-venom dose, the hospital would charge you for both doses. Not just one.
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Just to reinforce Bob's point, here's how I run things at my tables:
1. Any spellcasting service that requires a caster level check does require a roll to be made.
2. All spellcasting services bought with prestige are at minimum caster level.
3. You can use gold to buy the spellcasting service at any level - minimum or above - you want but the cost is calculated per the CRB.a. I don't give out the DCs automatically but I do suggest some kind of skill check to determine the DC (Heal, Knowledge: Arcana, etc.) or for a particularly unskilled party some other spells (augury, divination, etc.) that might tell them if they should spring for a higher caster level.
b. Probability calculation by the GM is a free service :)
I do the same.
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I do the same.Don't forget that you have to roll saves until they can reach a caster able to cast it. That could be awhile, especially if minimum caster level won't do it. Plus you can't heal the damage until the affliction is cured.
Con damage diseases are dangerous. :)
True, but Lesser Restoration only requires a 3rd or 4th level caster, and can keep you from dying in the interim.
And a scroll with 5 castings only costs 2 PP...
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The "legality" is just as subjective as a GM allowing a to hit roll that would ordinarily fail to hit instead, a failed save to succeed, or a skill check. Remember, GMs certainly have a modicum of discretion to "fudge" die rolls if they feel it is necessary for the table. Saying that is illegal is a bit harse, but some people have a militant opinion of fudging die rolls so YMMV.
Fudging die rolls is a time honored tradition which is even suggested in some Paizo material on how to GM. Doing it all the time is, of course, a bad idea... but when fudging the die rolls can prevent the dice from ruining the fun of the game, such as in the case of three crits on one player in the same turn turning them into paste or a symbol trap TPKing the whole party due to high rolls on the traps side, it is better to preserve the fun and fudge some dice. This is also one reason why it is suggested to roll dice behind a screen.
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High tier Pallid Plague is a b!~&! to remove.** spoiler omitted **
That scenario has mechanical issues.
Not an issue. Those are adventurer prices. See, the common folk don't pay 5sp for a sewing needle. Those suckers are 10 to a copper anywhere not within 1 mile of an active adventurer. Same with healing. Oddly enough this phenomenon works in reverse for resurrection spells, where a PC pays 5000gp(plus spellcasting services) it costs NPCs millions of gp. So much as to be practically unaffordable, and thus why villains never return except as undead.
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The "legality" is just as subjective as a GM allowing a to hit roll that would ordinarily fail to hit instead, a failed save to succeed, or a skill check. Remember, GMs certainly have a modicum of discretion to "fudge" die rolls if they feel it is necessary for the table. Saying that is illegal is a bit harse, but some people have a militant opinion of fudging die rolls so YMMV.Fudging die rolls is a time honored tradition which is even suggested in some Paizo material on how to GM.
For the record, I'm not saying I'm against the spirit of this and I likely benefited from a kind GM or 2 in the past. As a GM, I have not really had a situation where this would come up (and online I don't fudge dice as most rolls are in the open). However, that said, I'm not aware of any Society material that gives such leniency. Again...read my "secret wish" above. ;)
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Let's look at this from another direction.
A PC gets hit with a Bestow Curse and takes the -4 on attack rolls, saves, etc. After a series of bad rolls, the PC runs out of money buying Remove Curses at the end of the scenario. Conditions must be cleared, his was not, so the character must be reported as dead. Remove Curse leaves the character entirely playable, but must be reported as dead not because he died, but because he ran out of money.
Also, do you tell your players the DC of a save or check before they roll? Because the vast majority of GMs I've met (including myself) don't. What if the DC is more than 25? Do you sit there and let them buy a number of Remove Curse/Disease/etc spells until they roll a Nat 20 and fail (caster level checks don't auto-succeed on a 20)? There is no "Identify [condition] DC" spell or skill check.
Not to be overly pedantic, but your example doesn't work. Remove Curse auto succeeds against Bestow Curse. (It's the opposite like bane/bless or haste/slow)
That said, in that case I'd suggest spending more for a higher CL up front.
Also, antiplagues can be used to increase the CL for diseases and poisons. Or to make the save (for the cure) instead of actually going the remove disease route.
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For the record, I'm not saying I'm against the spirit of this and I likely benefited from a kind GM or 2 in the past. As a GM, I have not really had a situation where this would come up (and online I don't fudge dice as most rolls are in the open). However, that said, I'm not aware of any Society material that gives such leniency. Again...read my "secret wish" above. ;)The "legality" is just as subjective as a GM allowing a to hit roll that would ordinarily fail to hit instead, a failed save to succeed, or a skill check. Remember, GMs certainly have a modicum of discretion to "fudge" die rolls if they feel it is necessary for the table. Saying that is illegal is a bit harse, but some people have a militant opinion of fudging die rolls so YMMV.Fudging die rolls is a time honored tradition which is even suggested in some Paizo material on how to GM.
What is perfectly legal in society is fudging any rule that helps the game. One example is the 'can I tape two flasks together' discussion, which was ruled yes under the rule of cool. Not something to be done all the time. But in certain situations it can be allowable because, hey, it can be cool.
PFS is not as strict as (some)people make it out to be. The commandment is to stick to the rules, but allowances can be made when it suits the situation. You can't change how power attack works, but you can allow a called shot to provide some kind of benefit if it fits the situation.
Remember, one of the rules of the game that must be followed is that 'fun' trumps 'rules' where necessary. Knowing where is the art of being a GM.
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I do the same.Don't forget that you have to have them roll saves until they can reach a caster able to cast it. That could be awhile, especially if minimum caster level won't do it. Plus you can't heal the damage until the affliction is cured.
Con damage diseases are dangerous. :)
But everything else you can usually get some chicken soup and ride out on the college student health plan.
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But everything else you can usually get some chicken soup and ride out on the college student health plan.I do the same.Don't forget that you have to have them roll saves until they can reach a caster able to cast it. That could be awhile, especially if minimum caster level won't do it. Plus you can't heal the damage until the affliction is cured.
Con damage diseases are dangerous. :)
On two provisos:
You might need a dedicated nurse, if your luck is really bad, as most abilities, when reduced to zero, leave you helpless and/or unconscious.And that the affliction doesn't kill you if the ability it affects goes to zero, or a specified number.
Charisma dump PCs, with a Charisma penalized race, can wind up, with some bad luck, as no longer being PFS legal during a scenario.
Actually had a discussion, and some extra money paid, yesterday, when the <redacted> were especially successful during Mists of Mwangi. Both PCs affected opted to pay extra, 300 gp, for a CL10 Remove Disease, rather than the minimum and hope. Fortunately, both of them made the DC, so they survived. Equally fortunately, that scenario happens in Absolom, so no need to worry about ability drain if you have a long way to travel. Ability drain would be a real pain for a Tier 1-5 scenario.
Kiss (Su) A vargouille can kiss a helpless target by making a successful melee touch attack (this provokes attacks of opportunity). A kissed opponent must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or begin a terrible transformation that changes the creature into a vargouille within 24 hours (and often much sooner; roll 1d6 separately for each phase of the transformation). First, over a period of 1d6 hours, all the victim’s hair falls out. Within another 1d6 hours thereafter, the ears grow into leathery wings, tentacles sprout on the chin and scalp, and the teeth become long, pointed fangs. During the next 1d6 hours, the victim takes Intelligence drain and Charisma drain equal to 1 point per hour (to a minimum of 3). The transformation is complete 1d6 hours thereafter, when the victim’s head breaks free of the body (which promptly dies) and becomes a vargouille. This transformation’s progress is paused by sunlight or any light spell of 3rd level or higher, but stopping the transformation requires remove disease or a similar effect. The transformation is a disease effect. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.
Edit: This is also a case where even the normal price is fairly punitive at sub-tier 1-2 (150 gp out of a max gold of 509), and either a 24 hour delay, or a premium price add-on, would be inappropriate.
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But everything else you can usually get some chicken soup and ride out on the college student health plan.I do the same.Don't forget that you have to have them roll saves until they can reach a caster able to cast it. That could be awhile, especially if minimum caster level won't do it. Plus you can't heal the damage until the affliction is cured.
Con damage diseases are dangerous. :)
On two provisos:
You might need a dedicated nurse, if your luck is really bad, as most abilities, when reduced to zero, leave you helpless and/or unconscious.And that the affliction doesn't kill you if the ability it affects goes to zero, or a specified number.
Charisma dump PCs, with a Charisma penalized race, can wind up, with some bad luck, as no longer being PFS legal during a scenario.
Actually had a discussion, and some extra money paid, yesterday, when the <redacted> were especially successful during Mists of Mwangi. Both PCs affected opted to pay extra, 300 gp, for a CL10 Remove Disease, rather than the minimum and hope. Fortunately, both of them made the DC, so they survived. Equally fortunately, that scenario happens in Absolom, so no need to worry about ability drain if you have a long way to travel. Ability drain would be a real pain for a Tier 1-5 scenario.
** spoiler omitted **...
Wanna talk about punishment? An eldritch guardian is designed to put his familiar into combat. Yet, it still only has the HP of a regular familiar(unless mauler + a feat) and costs the same as a regular familiar to replace. 200gp X level.
I still play one, and am not complaining(though, if someone who can change this is listening... eh eh?) but it is very punishing, compared to ACs.|
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I've confess that I've always played that if you pay prestige for a condition to be removed at the end of the game it is automatically removed. I do not feel that this has in any way diminished the gaming experience, and wraps things up as efficiently as possible when everyone is just trying to get the paperwork put in their folders.