If i'd devide a gibbering mouther's multiple bite attacks, each with free grab ability, among the PCs, could i grapple as many as i'd hit?
Or just the 1?
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If i'd devide a gibbering mouther's multiple bite attacks, each with free grab ability, among the PCs, could i grapple as many as i'd hit?
Or just the 1?
Thanks to grab you can grapple as many different targets as you hit. Don't forget that you get the grappled condition too so you get a -2 on every attack after you grapple the first creature (but not on the additional grapple checks).
However...
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
You cannot continue the grapple on multiple creatures the next round. A gibbering mouther being what it is it will probably try to engulf (swallow whole) one target as a standard action. It can still gibber and spittle, but no more attacks that round.
Actually, this is for a PFS scenario.
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Not sure this is how this works guys.
Typically, grab special ability or not, you can only be grappled with a single creature. If you are capable of grappling more than one creature, like holding someone in a grapple with just one arm (in this case mouth), any subsequent grapple checks (including the maintenance check next round) would be made at -20.
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It sounds like you're conflating multiple rules, Andrew.
You can grapple multiple creatures. The reason this is rarely done is that without Greater Grapple (or the like), you do not have the action economy to do so--in subsequent rounds you would Move Action maintain on creature A then Standard Action grapple creature B. For PCs, generally, the action economy and (usually) possessing only 2 arms prevents grappling more than 2 creatures. It is only a -4 penalty to initiate a grapple with one limb, which for a dedicated grappler is nothing.
Multiple creatures cannot grapple you individually, but can do so collectively with Aid Another.
The -20 you refer to is if you wish to avoid having the grappled condition yourself and has no bearing on on the above listed cases.
Also, Grabbing Style feat chain is built around the idea of grapplers having the action economy to grapple multiple targets.
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I don't like the term RAW. I know you didn't mean to use it flippantly, and you are probably correct. But the game rules were never meant to be used RAW. And based in the fact two folks can interpret the same rule differently, even if both feel it's RAW, means it's hard to nail down exactly what RAW actually is.
Now I'm not suggesting that means you are wrong, or that GMS should try to correct the CR system within PFS or anything like that. But I've decided to make a pact to not invoke RAW anymore.
I feel this issue needs more research. I firmly believe the intent was never for a single creature to TPK an appropriately leveled party simply by grappling all of them in round 1.
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It's not that effective in actual play. Without blood drain, the mouther is just rolling d4's for damage and has a smallish attack bonus for its cr. Sure, somebody usually gets engulfed and some sweet ooze lovin', but to me it's all about the TEKELI-LI. Losing a round to confusion or burning hands'ing your compatriots is often a quick trip to Lose Town.
Spittle's pretty good too. Great for killing ranged support.
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I feel this issue needs more research. I firmly believe the intent was never for a single creature to TPK an appropriately leveled party simply by grappling all of them in round 1.
What it seems you have issues with is using the creature's abilities to the fullest.
It is very doubtful it will TPK a party from one round of grappling. Assuming it magically was in melee range of 4 L5 characters and had highest initiative:
Round 1
Gibbering Mouther:
Gibbering: Free action
+7 bite (1d4 + grab @ +7 CMB), grapples PC1
+5 bite (1d4 + grab @ +7 CMB), grapples PC2
+5 bite (1d4 + grab @ +7 CMB), grapples PC3
+5 bite (1d4 + grab @ +7 CMB), grapples PC4
+5 bite (1d4) on PC1
+5 bite (1d4) on PC1
+6 spittle: Free action (possible blind), doesn't provoke as all are grappled
So, at the end of it's turn, 1 person is blinded, 4 people are grappled and confusion is moot because it attacked the confused PCs. At worst, 1 PC is blind if blinded for 4 rounds, grappled AND took 3d4 damage. The other PCs are grappled and took 1d4.
PCs up:
4 PCs worth of actions, most likely attacking the Gibbering Mouther with 1h/light weapons
Round 2
Gibbering Mouther
Standard Action: Swallow Whole PC1 (6d4 damage plus 2 Con damage)
Loses Grapple on PCs 2, 3, 4
Spittle would provoke, so it does not spit
PCs up:
PC1 is potentially bad shape, 4 PCs now get attacks this round (1 from inside) and 5' step back. PC1 cuts his way out easily beating AC12 & HP 4 and 5' steps out. A solid party could down it this round.
Round 3:
Gibbering Mouther
Attacks and potentially downs PC1 with 6 attacks. If PC1 goes down, then the mouther might 5' step and go after PC2.
Free Action Spittle at PC3.
PCs up:
3 PCs worth of action. At this point the Gibbering Mouther should be down or almost down.
Honestly, I wouldn't be afraid of the GM's grappling as action economy severely hampers that, I'd be more afraid of the free action Gibbering and the free action Ranged Touch blind.
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Possibly Sammy T. But that would be create a low CR creature that could so something better equated to a much higher CR.
Andrew, there is a module with a BBEG who is CR 8, which is within range for that module, who gets 4 attacks with potential grapple, and the successful grapples all do nasty things. And this monster, and its Bestiary cousin who is CR 6 without the extra class levels, were discussed in the catch-and-release thread in the Rules forum.
Catch-and-release:
Creature with multiple attacks, all with a Grab rider
Melee 4 claws +10 (1d4+3 plus grab)
Special Attacks evisceration, grab, sneak attack +2d6
Evisceration (Ex) A mi-go's claws are capable of swiftly and painfully performing surgical operations upon helpless creatures or those it has grappled. When a mi-go makes a successful grapple check, in addition to any other effects caused by a successful grapple, it deals sneak attack damage to the victim. A creature that takes this damage must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of ability damage from the invasive surgery (the type of ability damage dealt is chosen by the mi-go at the time the evisceration occurs). The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Attack, grab, <redacted>, release (free action), repeat on same target three more times, holding on after the 4th attack, instead of releasing. Not pretty.
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The Gibbering mouther I was talking about is in a tier 2-4 module. The way its tactics are written, it will get a surprise round, and will most likely be the only one acting, as its a very high perception check to make to spot it. That gives it an early advantage. It situated in very cramped quarter.
Its a CR5 creature, that is amorphous, has DR 5/bludgeoning and is immune to critical hits and precision damage.
My party of 4 level 3 PC's had a hard time.
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Exaclty. A Gibbering Mouther in a tier 2-4 is not exactly placed right.
Hmmm. That, really, is not correct.
A CR5 encounter will be a hard challenge for an APL 3 party, assuming a Tier 2-4 module, since that is designed for a party of level 3 PCs.
A CR6 encounter would be an epic challenge for that APL 3 party, with a good possibility of someone dying.
Difficulty Challenge Rating Equals…
Easy APL –1
Average APL
Challenging APL +1
Hard APL +2
Epic APL +3
So, with a tier 2-4 module, expect encounters ranging up to a possible CR 7, if the module is actually looking at APL 4 at the end.
Which is also how you can wind up with a Shadow (CR 3) or Wight (CR 3) in a Tier 1-2 module, and an end boss, in one of those self-same modules, that is CR 5, using 2 CR 3 creatures.