Advice for a bored 11th level Fighter / Archer


Advice


So I'm stuck in a rut. I joined a campaign well into its story. I created a character at level 8. Half-Orc Archer (APG). He's level 11 now, about to go to 12, and he's just not terribly interesting to play. He's a one-trick-pony... granted, he's extremely good at that one trick, but really lacks in everything else.

Here are the main things:

STR: 16 DEX: 20 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 10
FORT: +12 REF: +12 WILL: +11
FEATS: Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Improved Crit (Longbow), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Many SHot, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow).
WEAPON: +1 Monstrous Humanoid-Bane Frost Composite Longbow (+3 STR DMG)

He does massive damage. But that's basically it...

Is it worth it to multiclass at this point. If so, with what? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


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Well Secret Wizard has a great guide that has a really neat ranged fighter with fun ticks like ranged trip and disarm. Take a look!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p2sDGtlDJcz5z47LwXGKV7bQGNAUmFxFBupBCJO orxo/edit

Also, have you take a look at the new weapon training options for fighter and the weapon mastery feats? They could help spice things up for you.

Take a look at that guide though, great ranged fighter build in there.


Well, there are three parts to the game. Exploration, interaction, and combat.

You've got the last one down, right? In fact, you could probably retrain a feat or two and STILL be just fine in combat.

With that much wisdom, I'd go inquisitor. You'll gain a good skill list, plenty of skill points as well. Spread them around liberally.

As for combat, you need options other than 'full attack again'. I don't have a copy of the Ranged Tactics Toolbox, but I can guess what the feats Ranged Trip and Ranged Disarm do.


And I'm amazed you don't have power attack. After all, you're a high-level fighter with good strength, power attack and a two handed weapon will do decent damage when bows aren't going to work.


Are you looking for ways to contribute out of combat, or tactics in combat other than full-attack?

Either way, off the top of my head, I believe there's a feat to gain a familiar with iron will as a prerequisite, could open up some RP as well as give some extra tactics, especially if you're allowed to take improved familiar and have ranks in UMD.. Even without the familiar, UMD can open a lot of utility once you can hit dc20 with some reliability..

I believe there's ranged maneuver feats in the ranged tactics tool box that could add a little variety to your combat rounds.

Warpriest arsenal chaplain could give you some minor spellcasting and buffs, and open up AWT feats at 5th, I'd be torn between the bonus skills (UMD!) or the sacred damage (could stack all effective fighter levels to give you base 2d6 damage at that level)..

Deific obedience feat could open up evangelist prestige, trade good BaB for skills and abilities..

Rogue(Unchained) gives you skills, slightly more damage melee option vs those nasty wind spells, and debuffs, just need a way to reliably SA and then greater sniper goggles pay off with only a few dice, but that's all easier said then done..

Paladin code is a forced RP challenge / conversation starter.. Same with Oracle's curse, especially with a mysterious patron..

Slayer, or Bard or Skald even with that Cha, give some skills and buffs, but it's take a long while before action economy would let you use the buffs effectively..

Edit: took too long to type, good ideas up there...


Inquisitor is definitely a good way to go! Their spell list is great for archers and Bane is always a wonderful thing to have when you're dumping out a tons of attacks each round!


Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
And I'm amazed you don't have power attack. After all, you're a high-level fighter with good strength, power attack and a two handed weapon will do decent damage when bows aren't going to work.

With point blank master there is almost no time at which a bow isn't going to work.

To OP-

Not really sure what you are looking for here. Is it to be able to do more things in combat other then killing things with a bow? Could try taking Intimidating Prowness to add your str bonus to Intimidation rolls. Controlling the battlefield isn't really a fighter's schick unforunately, maybe controlling one opponent. But you don't have the Int for combat expertise so much of those is out the window.

Are you looking for more role playing opportunities? Well, that is only limited by how much you are willing to talk. Sure, if the Gm is the kind that determines everything with just a die roll, you are screwed, but have fun talking with them anyways, and the looks on the other player's faces.

If your looking to help the party with some kind of skill rolls, then you would have to pick a class with a lot of skill points just to offset starting out at level 13. Bard is one of the few that comes to mind, but you won't ever be getting any spells. Inquisitor would be good if you decide to stick with it. Ninja would also be good (if you GM allows those), you might not have much Ki, but you get tons of skills and a lot of interesting abilities.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Are there any fancy arrows you could use?

I'm thinking of a harpoon arrow that can be used to pin a BBEG down. It might require 2 or 3 rounds to pin it in place. Also, are harpoon arrows a thing? Because they should be.

I'm pretty sure the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons has LOTS of specialty arrows.

Also, what is the rest of your party? What do they usually do in combat?

A dip into Inquisitor, as mentioned a bunch of times up thread, would be good.


SmiloDan wrote:
I'm pretty sure the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons has LOTS of specialty arrows.

Problem is, most of them suck. The good ones are useful to have in your quiver (Blunt for skeletons and nonlethal takedowns, Pheromone to help out animal companions, wildshaped Druids, etc). The rest are either too expensive at low levels and too ineffective at high levels (see also Poisons), or are just not as effective as shooting regular arrows. None of them really alter a character's playstyle in any way, except he can sometimes add "I select a special arrow" before making the usual "I shoot the thing".

A dip in Inquisitor would be good. A full retrain to Inquisitor, if that's on the table, will be better. On balance, your effectiveness at shooting things dead will be just as good, and you'll have far more options and utility, both in and out of combat.

Liberty's Edge

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If allowed, you could switch your Class over to Slayer, all 11 levels. You'd lose Weapon Specialization, but nothing else, and gain a lot of skill and non-combat options. The re-build would be surprisingly easy.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Athaleon wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
I'm pretty sure the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons has LOTS of specialty arrows.

Problem is, most of them suck. The good ones are useful to have in your quiver (Blunt for skeletons and nonlethal takedowns, Pheromone to help out animal companions, wildshaped Druids, etc). The rest are either too expensive at low levels and too ineffective at high levels (see also Poisons), or are just not as effective as shooting regular arrows. None of them really alter a character's playstyle in any way, except he can sometimes add "I select a special arrow" before making the usual "I shoot the thing".

A dip in Inquisitor would be good. A full retrain to Inquisitor, if that's on the table, will be better. On balance, your effectiveness at shooting things dead will be just as good, and you'll have far more options and utility, both in and out of combat.

Is there a 5 level PrC that make arrows better? It seems like something that should exist.

Alternatively, maybe a dip into an arcane class and then some Arcane Archer? I'm not sure how that would affect your combat effectiveness, but it would give you more options.


Any class that grants access to Domains will open up a lot of options that don't necessarily rely on levels.

For example, a single level of Pharasma Cleric could open up an Inquisition that uses wisdom for social skills, plus the ability to stagger with a no-save touch using the Repose Domain (which can then be applied through a conductive weapon in melee).

There are a ton of interesting Domains and Inquisitions you can open up with a single level, besides the fact that worship of a deity will give a ton of structure and motivation to a character.

Silver Crusade

A lot depends upon what abilities you want to gain in order to be more interesting. Here are a few ideas:

For more interesting combats:

1. If you want to retrain minimally:
A. Trade Archer archetype for PHB fighter. That gets you additional groups for weapon training.
B. Trade point blank master for Quickdraw. In some ways this is a downgrade. You get to use a secondary weapon in melee rather than your bow. Take Power Attack at your next opportunity. This results in a little bit lower damage. However, it does have two advantages:
i. It does apply in a few situations that Point Blank Master does not--such as when tripped, grappled, swallowed whole, underwater, or fighting a foe protected by fickle winds or wind wall.
ii. It gives you and your DM something to think about that will make combat more interesting for you.

You could also go with the proposed switch to slayer or inquisitor but while they give you out of combat options, they will primarily make your combat rounds more complicated without actually making them more interesting. Studied Target and Bane/Judgement/Spells have good uses and are effective but you will still face the problem that your most effective action every combat and every round is the same (swift action buff plus full attack with your bow).

2. If you want to multiclass rather than fully retrain, multiclassing with Ninja is probably your best bet for obtaining useful combat options. Ki points for attack and vanishing trick would give you (by level 13) meaningful options in combat that you don't have now.

Out of combat is where the switch to Slayer or Inquisitor would shine. (That said, while a full retrain to Inquisitor would help, I don't think you would get much out of multi-classing to Inquisitor--waiting till level 16 to get bane and +2 judgements isn't terribly exciting and having 2nd level spells available to you starting at level 15 isn't going to change your list of effective options). However, depending upon what you would like to do out of combat, multiclass with ninja, ranger, or even rogue might well give you skills to give you more out of combat options too.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If he's going to do a rebuild, just rebuild to a ranger with archer weapon group.

Bing! Capable of doing everything he has now, except more skill points, a pet, and spellcasting, and better saves. And he gets to toss a couple feats he doesn't need, since Rangers skip pre-reqs.

Take item creation feats and a social skill with your doubled (tripled?) skill points, and go to town.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

If he's going to do a rebuild, just rebuild to a ranger with archer weapon group.

Bing! Capable of doing everything he has now, except more skill points, a pet, and spellcasting, and better saves. And he gets to toss a couple feats he doesn't need, since Rangers skip pre-reqs.

Take item creation feats and a social skill with your doubled (tripled?) skill points, and go to town.

==Aelryinth

Or a Slayer, to maintain the lack of magic and possibly theme.

I advised Slayer a while ago...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If you don't want to totally rebuild, a dip into ranger and/or horizon walker would give you some additional utility while keeping your BAB up. Slayer is pretty sweet, too. Cavalier might be an interesting option. More skill points, social skills, and a teamwork feat, which would give you more options.


Dios into divine classes are strange. You need to somehow you came up with those powers.
Explain it rp wise at least. You could also to wizard and say infame you feel useless compared to a magic wielder. That way you get access to wand and study for it.
It makes sense for a martial guy to notice how weak she is compared to magic users, who defy everything

RP wise is a great opportunity


I recommend taking a level in Wizard, then take levels in Arcane Archer. That will certainly give you a whole new set of capabilities that should make things interesting and build smoothly on top of your Archer capabilities. And it will generally make your character significantly more powerful. Plus, you can make the change fast: probably just 1 level in Wizard, then you can start taking levels in Arcane Archer.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I recommend taking a level in Wizard, then take levels in Arcane Archer. That will certainly give you a whole new set of capabilities that should make things interesting and build smoothly on top of your Archer capabilities. And it will generally make your character significantly more powerful. Plus, you can make the change fast: probably just 1 level in Wizard, then you can start taking levels in Arcane Archer.

Arcane Archer could be interesting, though if you're going to do it, maybe retrain a few of your levels in Fighter to Wizard so you can eventually higher level spells onto your Arrows.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Can you go fighter X/magus Y/arcane archer Z?

Or do magus spells not gel well with AA abilities?

I'm just thinking the magus levels might reduce BAB loss if taken for more than 3 levels.


SmiloDan wrote:

Can you go fighter X/magus Y/arcane archer Z?

Or do magus spells not gel well with AA abilities?

I'm just thinking the magus levels might reduce BAB loss if taken for more than 3 levels.

I think the utility from having level 6 spells instead of level 4 (with 12 levels combined Magus/AA or Wizard/AA) would probably swing things in favor of the Wizard. To be fair, I've never tried to build a Magus/AA though.


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LooseScrew wrote:

So I'm stuck in a rut...he's just not terribly interesting to play. He's a one-trick-pony... granted, he's extremely good at that one trick, but really lacks in everything else.

He does massive damage. But that's basically it...

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Who isn't bored? (that's not a rhetorical question even though it sounds like one)

Is the rage-cycling barbarian bored with activating rage and clobbering every bad guy?

Is the wizard bored with every fight being "Haste this round, Black Tentacles next round, Stinking Cloud the round after that, then fire crossbows while the fighter kills the remaining bad guys".

Is the cleric bored with healing you?

Is the rogue bored with tumbling behind monsters to sneak attack, only to do less damage than you most of the time?

Is the white-haired witch bored with grappling every bad guy?

Is the other witch bored with Slumber Hexing every bad guy?

Is the ...

You get the idea by now.

Almost every class is a "one trick pony". They all do the same thing over and over and over and over. Admittedly, the casters can easily swap out current tricks for different tricks, but they rarely do because they rarely need to - they picked their favorites in the first place.

Frankly, playing any class for 11 levels (or nearly 4 since you started late) can get stiflingly boring - if the only think you're doing is grinding through encounters.

But if the GM is crafting a fun story and engaging his players, and if YOU are getting into character and into the story and staying involved, and most importantly if the whole game isn't devolving into a grind-fest of combat rolls, then the GAME is fun regardless of which particular "one-trick pony" you chose to play.

Probably not the advice you're looking for, but IMO it will probably help far more than it would have helped if I just suggested a new feat or magic item.


Cheburn wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Can you go fighter X/magus Y/arcane archer Z?

Or do magus spells not gel well with AA abilities?

I'm just thinking the magus levels might reduce BAB loss if taken for more than 3 levels.

I think the utility from having level 6 spells instead of level 4 (with 12 levels combined Magus/AA or Wizard/AA) would probably swing things in favor of the Wizard. To be fair, I've never tried to build a Magus/AA though.

Plus, as a Wizard, he gets a much larger selection of spells and no limit as to how many he can learn. That will result in much greater short-term versatility and utility.

As a Magus, though, he gets to keep his armor, or some kind of armor, anyway. That might result in a more smooth transition from the Martial to the Arcane, and be more comfortable for the OP. The Spell Combat and Combat Casting have applications that might make sense for an Arcane Archer, as does the Arcane Pool. And this late in the game, starting at level 11, his CL may never get all that high, anyway.

Personally, I was thinking that if I was going to make an Arcane Archer, like you, I would make it more arcane and less archer. I'd start with a level in Fighter, then I'd take 5 levels in Wizard, then like 3 levels in Eldritch Knight (until my BAB got up to +6, then start taking levels in Arcane Archer. I first got that idea when Paizo FAQed that Spell Like Abilities would count toward early entry into Prestige Classes, so an Aasimar with its Level 3 Arcane SLA, could start taking levels in EK by like level 3.

If I were following your proposal of retraining 1-5 levels in Fighter to levels in an arcane class and maybe Arcane Archer, too, then I would also follow your advice and go with Wizard and not Magus, say retrain so the OP is a level 6 Fighter/1Wizard/4Arcane Archer. I like that a lot better than 6Fighter/1Magus/4AA.


Did any of the people recommending dipping into wizard or magus even read the original post? He has a 10 INT and CHA, which means he would not even be able to cast 1st level spells. The only way he can cast spells is to be a WIS based divine caster, or an Empyreal bloodline sorcerer.

My question is how high is the campaign likely to go? Many classes do not come into their own for a few levels and if he will not be able to gain enough levels it may not be worth it. If he can and is willing to retrain his existing levels that opens a much larger selection. Also at 12th level having 1st level spells is not that impressive.

If he just wants to add something different his choices are narrower. Ranger or slayer would probably be the best addition as they complement his existing build. Since he already has the archery down and probably has pointblank master not much of a reason of a reason to go with a combat style. If he goes ranger choose an archetype that trades that out.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Did any of the people recommending dipping into wizard or magus even read the original post? He has a 10 INT and CHA, which means he would not even be able to cast 1st level spells. The only way he can cast spells is to be a WIS based divine caster, or an Empyreal bloodline sorcerer.

My question is how high is the campaign likely to go? Many classes do not come into their own for a few levels and if he will not be able to gain enough levels it may not be worth it. If he can and is willing to retrain his existing levels that opens a much larger selection. Also at 12th level having 1st level spells is not that impressive.

If he just wants to add something different his choices are narrower. Ranger or slayer would probably be the best addition as they complement his existing build. Since he already has the archery down and probably has pointblank master not much of a reason of a reason to go with a combat style. If he goes ranger choose an archetype that trades that out.

Nope. I missed that. To follow my advice, he'll need a Headband of Intelligence, and a pretty good one, too. But he's 11th level: he should be able to afford one.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Did any of the people recommending dipping into wizard or magus even read the original post? He has a 10 INT and CHA, which means he would not even be able to cast 1st level spells. The only way he can cast spells is to be a WIS based divine caster, or an Empyreal bloodline sorcerer.

My question is how high is the campaign likely to go? Many classes do not come into their own for a few levels and if he will not be able to gain enough levels it may not be worth it. If he can and is willing to retrain his existing levels that opens a much larger selection. Also at 12th level having 1st level spells is not that impressive.

If he just wants to add something different his choices are narrower. Ranger or slayer would probably be the best addition as they complement his existing build. Since he already has the archery down and probably has pointblank master not much of a reason of a reason to go with a combat style. If he goes ranger choose an archetype that trades that out.

Nope. I missed that. To follow my advice, he'll need a Headband of Intelligence, and a pretty good one, too. But he's 11th level: he should be able to afford one.

If retraining rules are allowed, he could also retrain his level 4 and 8 stats to INT.


Multiclassing or prestiging is an option, if not necessarily the greatest. I would check if you can retrain into the core fighter for the access to advanced weapon training, which can get you more trick shots and using your BAB instead of 2 skills not unlike how the bard gets it. From then on, hmm, inquisitor or shaman are good ways to get more supernatural tricks, if you are into that. Shamans get a familiar and some spirit mojo that strikes me as nice for a character who is already good at their core stuff.

Silver Crusade

Multiclass 1 Bard or 1 rogue level, lots of skill points and lots of skills.

You could cover a couple of sides where you are feeling weak.


DM_Blake wrote:

Almost every class is a "one trick pony". They all do the same thing over and over and over and over. Admittedly, the casters can easily swap out current tricks for different tricks, but they rarely do because they rarely need to - they picked their favorites in the first place.

Frankly, playing any class for 11 levels (or nearly 4 since you started late) can get stiflingly boring - if the only think you're doing is grinding through encounters.

There's a reason I tend to skew more and more to hybrid caster/martial characters, theoretical optimization be damned. Versatility and tactics are fun.

Silver Crusade

BadBird wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

Almost every class is a "one trick pony". They all do the same thing over and over and over and over. Admittedly, the casters can easily swap out current tricks for different tricks, but they rarely do because they rarely need to - they picked their favorites in the first place.

Frankly, playing any class for 11 levels (or nearly 4 since you started late) can get stiflingly boring - if the only think you're doing is grinding through encounters.

There's a reason I tend to skew more and more to hybrid caster/martial characters, theoretical optimization be damned. Versatility and tactics are fun.

That's my experience as well, but for archers there is a significant difference especially since your high level feats (Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Master) tend to remove tactical considerations rather than add them.

For a melee fighter, there is always the question of positioning: should I move here? Who will be able to full attack me or flank me? Who will get AoOs? Can I charge? Should I Trip with my first attack? Is it worth all that in order to pin a caster in place/prevent the enemy from being able to get to my wizard/flank the other fighter without giving up a full attack and provoking an AoO. Even without spellcasting abilities or swift action abilities, those questions make each combat distinct and provide a reasonable number of factors to evaluate. And most characters will pick up more useful/meaningful options as they level up--more smites, more favored enemies, stun abilities, deadly stroke, Knockdown/Step Up/whatever.

On the other hand archers--especially fighter archers have fewer tactical considerations. They can usually attack anyone they want and they all have precise shot so their questions are usually:
A. Who should I attack?
B. Do they have cover?/Concealment?
C. Should I ready or Full Attack. (Almost always full attack)
D. Is there anyone in a position to opportunity attack me if I use my bow.

However, when an archer fighter levels up and gets Improved Precise Shot, B goes away. If they can see a small part of someone they can hit it. When they get a seeking bow, the other part of B goes away. Concealment does not apply. When they get Point Blank Master, D mostly goes away. Other than grappling, the enemy's position relative to the archer doesn't really matter anymore. So now the high level archer fighter is often left with only two considerations:

A. Should I ready or Full Attack? (Almost always full attack--let someone else take care of disrupting spellcasting).
B. Who should I full attack?

There are a lot fewer tactical considerations if your combat role is "mobile damage turret" and you have taken all of the feats so that you can shoot whoever you want whenever you want from wherever you want. IMO, that's probably a big part of why the original poster is finding the fighter archer boring. And it's why I recommended he consider training out of Point Blank Master. It's a good feat, but it makes the game less interesting rather than more interesting and the switch hitter alternative is almost as good in a lot of situations, better in a few situations, and most importantly, is a lot more interesting.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe retrain into slayer? Then you can position yourself for sneak attack damage, which can be challenging for a ranged combatant, so that might be fun. It would also give you more skills, but still be a non-magic-user, if that's what you're going for. You can also get a ranger's Combat Style, which might free up some feats since you don't need the pre-requisites. And you can use the freed up feat slots for some other options.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Moving on to Inquisitor or Ranger would be an easy way to get some utility on him with that stat array.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Are there any fun warpriest blessings that help archers?


SmiloDan wrote:
Are there any fun warpriest blessings that help archers?

Air, Destruction, any of the alignment blessing (+quicken blessing) for a meat shield

Dark Archive

Warpriest Quickened Blessing can't happen until you take 10 levels. That's not going to help when you are looking to dip a couple of levels.

Most of these suggestions really aren't going to help unless you are looking to rebuild: fighter archers do what they do very well, but they don't do much else.

There are some options to looks at that will give you trick shots and such that might be fun, in the Weapon Master's Handbook. Things like the ability to open/close, move items, and also some focused around improved trips and such.

One thing that I've done with my Fighter Archer in PFS that helps with the monotony is to spend some time moving around the battlefield and setting up flanks for people using Snap Shot. Its technically not as efficient as standing in one place and using full round attacks, but it allows you to help the other players shine (taking the damage spotlight off the archer), which improves my enjoyment of the games as much as it does theirs.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LooseScrew, what is it you wish your character could do?

Do you want more combat options?
Do you want to cause more damage?
Do you want to add carrier effects to your attacks?
Do you want more movement during combat?
Do you want to buff your allies or help them fight better?

Do you want more out-of combat options?
Scouting?
Facing?
Saging?
Exploring?

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