So the questions I'm gonna propose revolve around the Spiked Hilt "weapon modification" for lack of a better term.
Anyway, there's the above link.
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons.
When the wielder issues the command word, a shrinking weapon shrinks to the size of a standard dagger. While in this state, the weapon deals 1d4 points of damage but is more easily concealable. When the command word is spoken again, the weapon returns to its original state.
Any and all opinions are welcome here. I'm debating applying this to a weapon that already has a spiked hilt and I'm really curious how it'll work. I'm assuming it'll shrink both, but then the issues come up like what if you then draw the dagger from the hilt, is it still shrunk even though it doesn't have the shrinking special ability on it?
Also, what happens for other abilities put on the main weapon, like Transformative
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A transformative weapon alters its shape at its wielder's command, becoming any other melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness; the weapon's categorization as simple, martial, or exotic is irrelevant. For example, a Medium transformative longsword can take the shape of any other Medium one-handed melee weapon, such as a scimitar, flail, or trident, but not a Medium light or two-handed melee weapon (such as a Medium short sword or a Medium greatsword). It can even take the shape of comparable weapons of different size categories. For example, a Small greatsword is a two-handed slashing weapon for a Small character, but is a one-handed slashing weapon for a Medium character, which is very similar to a Medium longsword; a Small transformative greatsword can thus become an actual Medium longsword, usable by a Medium creature without the —2 penalty for using a weapon of the wrong size. The weapon retains all of its abilities , including enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities , except those prohibited by its current shape. For example, a keen transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. When unattended, the weapon reverts to its true shape.
Cameron
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So let me get this straight. For 3 HUNDRED gp all you get is a dagger hidden in your larger weapon? Why not just spend 2 gp and get a normal dagger?
OK, so anybody who actually wants to spend 300 gp for this sneaky dagger is blowing a fortune on it. Based on that, I'd say rule this in whatever way works best for the guy who paid that price. Shrink the weapon? No problem, the dagger shrinks too, but remove the dagger and it returns to its normal size. Transform the weapon? The dagger transforms too, and if the new weapon is bladed or hafted then it will have the spike hilt in place in the new weapon.
Sheeeesh, for 300 freakin gp, it ought to be as useful as possible...
I would say 'no'.
Besides the obvious rules conflict, there is a logical conflict as well.
The idea that small/large sized weapons get a -2 to attack is due to a difference in balance, as well as the fact that they are made for different hands. A small weapon has a shorter, thinner handle, and a larger weapon has a longer, thicker handle. So in either case, they would rest strangely in the hand.
Since the spiked hilt is integrated into the handle, then it would be adversely affected if the handle suddenly shrank in size. Assuming it isn't transformative itself, it would likely just get squeezed out (assuming a best case scenario- I could easily see it getting crushed)
So let me get this straight. For 3 HUNDRED gp all you get is a dagger hidden in your larger weapon? Why not just spend 2 gp and get a normal dagger?
Well, the idea is probably that it is a fake quick draw, for a swift action draw.
...which would mean it would be an alright price, if it wasn't for the existence of spring loaded wrist sheaths, that do the exact same thing basically, but don't get ruined when someone disarms you (...which is probably when you want to spend a swift action to get a weapon as quickly as possible, actually...)
Overall, the concept has places- a 2 handed/TWF switching style where someone decided 'no, I would rather not use a cestus'. But there is better execution out there.
I definitely thank you all for the comments. I was beginning to wonder if this post was going to get any feedback...
Anyone else is welcome to suggest things here as well. This is basically house rule territory it seems since I can't find any actual rules on it other than the links provided.
Overall I do like DM_Blake's thoughts on it. And he has a good point about the pricing vs a standard dagger and a spring loaded wrist sheath.
I have no intentions of actually enchanting the dagger. But... I am debating also putting called on the trident though. And the trident currently has spell storing.
So if I call the trident I would say it's safe to assume everyone feels that the dagger would come with it, assuming it is still in the hilt of the trident when called? But if the dagger is out of the hilt then its just a standard dagger (or a Magic one if I ever add an enchantmemt too it) so it cannot be called, right?
And I don't think that if I draw the dagger then I can use the spell stored in the trident itself. That'd be ridiculous and I'd need to get the dagger enchanted with that. Right?
I do feel that the dagger should be considered part of the trident for all effects until drawn, like called, shrunk, etc. But once its drawn its a separate entity.
But if everyone else doesn't feel that way then I would also like to know that.
If it was automatically masterwork, and got 50 gp added on (so it wasn't cheaper than a regular masterwork dagger), it would be fine.
Not great, but if you wanted a dagger to go with your 1 handed weapon, then sure, fine.
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On a side note, while I might allow enchantments, even enhancement bonuses to affect both weapons simultaneously, I would require that the user must pick one weapon, not both, when he separates them - this is not a cheap way to TWF with a magical sword and a magical dagger but only have to pay for the enchantment costs once.
And, as Lemeres said, maybe bump up the price a little bit and make it masterwork (or just assume only a masterwork spike can be attached to a masterwork weapon), that way it can be eligible to be enchanted in the first place.
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At first I read the title of this thread as "spiked kilt", and I think that would be more amusing than this expensive dagger hiding mechanism. As a house rule maybe allowing a character to draw the spike hilt dagger as a Swift action if the "host" weapon is currently wielded would be an occasionally useful benefit. It could be nice for making a full attack with the dagger while you're grappled or perhaps making a ranged attack if an enemy you're attacking in melee enemy falls before your full attack is over (something I've sometimes used shurikens for)
Transformative - As long as the "host" weapon remains a one or two-handed sword or hafted weapon I don't see why the transformation should disrupt its ability to conceal a dagger.
Shrinking - The rules for this enchantment seem a little unclear to me since they don't actually state if the weapon becomes a light weapon (as opposed to say a two-handed weapon which happens to be dagger sized and only do 1d4 base damage). The rules also don't say if the weapon's damage type, crit range, etc change. Since the rules are vague and the spiked hilt seems weak I'd probably let you use these together unless you came up with some unexpectedly overpowered combo (and I can't think of one here)
Yeah I'm 100% happy with the dagger having no enchantments on it when used as a separate weapon. I'm mostly just making sure I'll be able to shrink my trident with this on it and that I'll be able to use called and it come back. Transformative would just be nice if it worked. Otherwise I'll pick one or the other.
I can't think of any overpowered combo from shrinking and the dagger though, it'd basically be the same as 2 daggers.
I'm fairly new to the game, this is my first character, so I'm just trying to find cool flavor stuff and utility here.