Need rules clarification on underwater grapple and Air Crystals


Pathfinder Society


I played #3-06 Song of the Sea Witch last night and died. I'm not sure I should have.

Scenario spoiler:

The witch/boss grappled me right at the altar. CRB says that he should only be able to move at half speed with me grappled, so, assuming standard movement speed, it should have taken three rounds for him to get me into the water, not one, correct?

Once we were in the water, he sunk down to the floor. Reading the rules for swim and underwater combat, my understanding is:

  • I should have <CON> (in my case 14) rounds to use my escape artist skill against his grapple at a -2 penalty (due to being underwater) while my party members attempt to kill him.
  • After <CON> rounds, I need to make a DC 10 (+1 per attempt) Constitution check. If I succeed, I can continue to attempt to escape.
  • Once I fail the saving throw, on my next round, my hit points go to 0.
  • On the next round, I die.

The GM ruled that since I was grappled, I only had two rounds to attempt to escape, then I died.

Prior to leaving town, I had purchased some Air Crystals.
PFSFG wrote:
A pouch of air crystals provides 1 minute of breathable air. Placing air crystals in your mouth takes a standard action; chewing them each round is a free action.
From reading net commentary, I had understood that the correct way to use these is:
  • Put crystals in your mouth.
  • If I get my head above the water within <CON> rounds, which I did, and do not speak, I did not need to chew them and they remain in my mouth for future use.
  • If I am still underwater after <CON> rounds, I chew for one round, providing air.
  • If I get out of the water withing the next <CON> rounds, as long as I do not speak or chew them, they remain in my mouth for use for however many rounds are unused. This point, while raised a number of times, seems ambiguous.
Clarification on both points please? And, what is my recourse in PFS?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

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Since none of us were there, your best course of action would be to contact your local VOs and state your position, so either Zak or Xath.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Out of curiosity:
That end "boss" is fairly simple to take down for every party I've ever run through it. How come the rest of the party couldn't take it down within 3 full rounds of it trying to grapple you out of its lair?

5/5 *****

This is largely not a question for the PFS forums but the rules forum.

It normally takes a standard action to maintain a grapple. If you succeed in doing so then you have various options. Moving yourself and your grappled target is one of those options. You are right that you can only move half your speed.

If your enemy tries to move you into a dangerous location then you get an extra check to escape at +4. Once you were underwater you should have been able to hold your breath in the usual way. You can hold your breath for twice your con stat in rounds. Note that while holding your breath if you take a standard or full round action that time is reduced by a round.

You can use escape artist to escape. You wouldn't take -2 for being underwater, that applies to attack rolls. You would take -2 because your dex is 4 lower while being grappled.

While grappled you can certainly grab gear which is on you, I don't see any reason why you couldn't garb an air crystal.

If you are unhappy with how your GM ran the game the first recourse is to talk to them about it in a civilised way, explain what your issue was and see what they have to say. If you are still unhappy then contact a local venture agent, officer or captain. Hashing these sorts of things out on the forums rarely helps improve matters.

5/5 *****

Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

This and also the door isn't that wide. It doesn't take many people standing in it to prevent him getting out at all.

Spoiler:
Having had a quick look at the creature the GM may have used the creatures Jet speed of 200. However, that can only be used in the water and as a full round action which would preclude maintain. Otherwise it has a 30' land speed

Silver Crusade 4/5

As a GM...:
I've tried to figure out how the author of this scenario possibly imagined that the creature could get away with this tactic as written. It would be mincemeat long before it gets to the door unless it had some special ability or perhaps surprised the party at the door in some special manner as to whisk away one surprised individual.

Dark Archive 4/5

It's either Xath or Jeff, Zak stepped down.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Prethen: he has a once per day sprint like ability to jet under water, so even at half speed thats a 100 foot with a grapple once he gets you in the water.

Silver Crusade 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Prethen: he has a once per day sprint like ability to jet under water, so even at half speed thats a 100 foot with a grapple once he gets you in the water.

Yes, I understood that. But, his main problem is to get out the door first. And, I just don't see how that's possible in virtually any circumstance unless the party is oblivious.

5/5 *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Prethen: he has a once per day sprint like ability to jet under water, so even at half speed thats a 100 foot with a grapple once he gets you in the water.

It is a full round action to use and can only be used underwater. It cannot be combined with grapple and doesn't work until he gets out of the main chamber.

4/5

Talk to your local venture officer, they should be able to sort things out for you.

For the general rules questions, yes with a successful maintain check you can move up to half your speed while bringing the grappled person with you. And since that fight has 10' squares it should take some time to get you into the water.

Drowning rules assume you are holding your breath, if your not holding your breath it does indeed take only three round to suffocate. Not being at the table the GM could have ruled that you weren't holding your breath before entering the water for a number of reason [character talking is one, casting spells with verbal components is another].

Air Crystals are pretty much like pop rocks, you empty the pouch of them in your mouth and chew. Though they are foul tasting. You get one minute (10 rounds) of air once you start chewing. Opening your mouth for any reason [talking to the party] releases all of that air, even the unchewed air.

5/5 5/55/55/5

andreww wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Prethen: he has a once per day sprint like ability to jet under water, so even at half speed thats a 100 foot with a grapple once he gets you in the water.
It is a full round action to use and can only be used underwater. It cannot be combined with grapple

I don't see any of those mechanics.

ahah. there they are. In the universal monster rules. It would be pretty easy just to look at the stat block and think its a regular movement.

Quote:
and doesn't work until he gets out of the main chamber.

Maybe he didn't think jet needed to be used under water?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
It's either Xath or Jeff, Zak stepped down.

Ah. I knew one of them stepped down, but since Jeff isn't listed on the Regional Coordinator list and Zak was, I thought it was the other way around.

5/5 *****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Maybe he didn't think jet needed to be used under water?

Maybe, although jet does say you swim backwards which is tricky to do on dry land...:)

The problem really is that the stat block doesn't explain what Jet does. If he was using it wrong then really it's on the GM to prepare better and look up unfamiliar stuff beforehand.


Prethen wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Prethen: he has a once per day sprint like ability to jet under water, so even at half speed thats a 100 foot with a grapple once he gets you in the water.
Yes, I understood that. But, his main problem is to get out the door first. And, I just don't see how that's possible in virtually any circumstance unless the party is oblivious.

Zak forwarded my question to Jeff & Bill yesterday. Hoping for a response soon.

For BigNorseWolf:

Spoiler:

Initiative order was Swashbuckler(Mouser), me, boss, other 2 party members.
Fight went: Mouser goes to Boss, get grappled (AoO). I go to altar to close book but I get grappled (AoO) and Mouser is released. Boss goes, drags me out of chamber and I'm in the water. I got 2 rounds in the water to attempt escape, then I was dead.
Felt really harsh for a level 3-4 fight, hence my post here.

As I am relatively new to PFS, I was unsure who to contact or what my options were, hence I figured I could past here and ask. Thank you all for your comments, I will post results when this gets resolved unless Jeff or Bill do it first.

And thank you for the clarification on air crystals. I'm unclear why they would state that you need to chew them every round unless that is an optional action that could be delayed. Where is the proper place to raise questions like this?

Scarab Sages

Sounds like your GM had not prepped at all, and has large gaps in his rules knowledge. The creature could not have taken an AoO on your Mouser, because it was flat-footed, and I don't recall it having Combat Reflexes. It could not AoO you for the same reason, as well as because it had the grappled condition. The creature does not have Greater Grapple, allowing for it to get more than 15 feet a round. You most assuredly have rounds equal to your CON while struggling in said grapple, as well. Your VO's should reverse your death, and speak to the GM.

Scarab Sages

The Grand Convocation last year saw a Summoner hold his breath longer than a Barbarian, who raged at the end for a couple extra rounds. To say he was embarrassed is an understatement.

Scarab Sages 2/5

There are not many abilities which circumvent holding your breath. You should have been able to hold your breath, unless you were hit with something more than a grapple.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Steven G. wrote:
Sounds like your GM had not prepped at all, and has large gaps in his rules knowledge.

None of us were at the table and therefore not in a position to criticize the GM. Perhaps there were events occurring that the player was unaware of. Please to not speculate to the competence of the GM based on a player's description of an event that occured of which you were not even present. It could have just been an honest mistake by the GM, or perhaps s/he just got caught up in the action. As the saying goes, "Let him without sin throw the first stone."

Paizo Employee 5/5 Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes

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Prethen wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Siiiiiiiigh... I'm going to put this one to rest. :)

Spoiler:
As the author, allow me to explain 'how the author of this scenario possibly imagined that the creature could get away with this tactic as written'.

We were working off a version of the cecaelia that was subsequently altered prior to its inclusion in Bestiary 3. I just pulled up my 'long long ago' emails between Mark Moreland and myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming this.

The cecaelia possessed an ability along the lines of: "A cecaelia's that successfully uses its tentacles to grapple a foe does not gain the
grappled condition themselves, but can no longer attack with its tentacles in melee so long as it chooses to maintain the grapple."

This was removed in the final version. So the INTENDED tactics, were that the sea witch would grapple, then move around doing other threatening stuff while enjoying the perks of grappling a single target.

So no one is really at fault on this one. It was just a change that happened between what Mark & I were working off and what ended up in the Bestiary. I just wanted to put this to rest, as I get A LOT of flak about it.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Thanks, Thurston for replying! Now, THAT would have been a good set of abilities to make the encounter more threatening.

4/5

I'd agree with the above that Air Crystals have a limited duration.

I think the superior way to go (if you have access) is a potion sponge with Air Bubble. It lets you cast underwater and the spell description would preclude drowning. Same activation time and duration for a few gold more.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco

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Thanks for the info, Thurston! Very enlightening to see the change you refer to.


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Deaths of both party members and all expenses were reversed. Thank you all for your assistance.

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