melee combat disalber because sometimes murder is.....


Advice


frowned upon. what classes and feats would make a great disabler? what would you focus on?


curse you typo fairy! one of these days i shall strike you down!

Silver Crusade

There are plenty of spells like Sleep and Deep Slumber that knock enemies out without killing them, Web to entangle them all, etc. Or the Merciful Spell metamagic feat from APG that converts any direct damage spell to non-lethal damage, without taking up a higher spell slot.

Or any melee class with non-lethal weapons. Monks and Sap Master rogues are particularly good at that. Or combat maneuvers like grapple to just pin and tie up the bad guys. Or other combat maneuvers like trip, disarm, and sunder to make the bad guys consider surrendering.


Witches & hexcrafter magi can use the slumber hex on everything in sight. The magus can be a decent debuffer with frostbite/rime spell too if so desired.

Merciful spell + blasting optimisation on a sorcerer is the most impressive at disabling people though.

Silver Crusade

Redeemer Paladins can non-lethal Smite.


1. Sneak Attack Damage can be nonlethal. I just offered a build as advice on Assistance with a melee caster build that does almost all nonlethal damage, and ridiculous amounts of it.

2. Dirty Tricks can make your opponent Blind, Deaf, Staggered, Sickened, and just about anything else. The Feat Tree is

Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighter
Improved Dirty Trick
Quick Dirty Trick
Greater Dirty Trick.

3. You can Grapple your opponent to make him helpless: Tied Up. Grappling is a Standard Action. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make a Grapple check as a Move Action once you have already Initiated one. Rapid Grappler lets you make a Grapple Check as a Swift Action after having made a Grapple Check as a Move Action. This means that if you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate, Pin, then Tie Up your Opponent all in 1 round. The Tie Up action imposes a -10, though. This can be lowered to a -5 with the rope Equipment Trick Feat.

You don't even need Rapid Grappler for that if you dip 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. That Level 2 Order Ability, Expert Captor, lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take that -10.

I recently built a Grappler-monstrosity character who can Grapple mulitple opponents simultaneously. Wrestling with White Haired Witch. This build is unusual in that (let me count the ways!) she doesn't have any levels in Tetori. Tetoris' ability to negate Freedom of Movement is highly coveted in Grappling Builds.


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zainale wrote:

curse you typo fairy! one of these days i shall strike you down!

Tou have my sowrd!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

1. Sneak Attack Damage can be nonlethal. I just offered a build as advice on Assistance with a melee caster build that does almost all nonlethal damage, and ridiculous amounts of it.

2.

3. You can Grapple your opponent to make him helpless: Tied Up. Grappling is a Standard Action. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make a Grapple check as a Move Action once you have already Initiated one. Rapid Grappler lets you make a Grapple Check as a Swift Action after having made a Grapple Check as a Move Action. This means that if you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate, Pin, then Tie Up your Opponent all in 1 round. The Tie Up action imposes a -10, though. This can be lowered to a -5 with the rope Equipment Trick Feat.

You don't even need Rapid Grappler for that if you dip 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. That Level 2 Order Ability, Expert Captor, lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take that -10.

False. In order to maintain a grapple you need to be in a grapple at the start of your turn. Rules for maintaining are pretty clear on this point.


Sap Adept --> Sap Master Feat-Chain Rogue Scout /Ninja.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

2. Dirty Tricks can make your opponent Blind, Deaf, Staggered, Sickened, and just about anything else. The Feat Tree is

Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighter
Improved Dirty Trick
Quick Dirty Trick
Greater Dirty Trick.

Dirty trick master allows a sickened enemy to become nauseated. That removed the standard action- the one needed if you want to attack or cast spells. So that makes the enemy a sitting duck with 2 checks.

And lets see how to make those two checks more efficient. Besides maneuver master monk, there is the eldritch guardian fighter, which gets a familiar that shares in all your feats- thus, it can double your action economy for this stuff. Be sure to pick up a mauler familiar, since it is the one with the decent CMB due to medium size and lots of str bonuses.

Overall, this is perfect for shutting down just about anything. Once they are nauseated, you can take your time to get people together and tie them up.


Combat manoeuvres in general are pretty good for not killing people. If somebody's prone or disarmed, they're a lot less likely to try to fight on.

Bolas are an exotic non-lethal thrown weapon that allow you to trip people over while standing on the other side of the room. That could be fun.
Tanglefoot bags are alchemical items that allow you to entangle your enemies.

Bludgeoner allows you to deal non lethal damage, with no penalty, when using bludgeoning weapons like clubs.
If you really want to focus on non lethal damage, then Bludgeoner qualifies you for Cudgeler Style, and the sequels, Sweep and Takedown, which basically make you very good at charging at people and bringing them down without killing them.

There are also a lot of spells that don't do damage, even without Merciful spell. Glitterdust, Grease, Wall of [Solid Material] and so on.

I was actually just thinking that a non-lethal campaign could be quite entertaining. Maybe the PCs are in law enforcement or something similar, and so you're expected to bring in the villains alive. It could be very different. Plus there's something amusing about the idea of a group of PCs that defeat a dragon, tie it up and then take it to court to face justice for its crimes.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/uncivilized-tactics-combat
through
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-uncivilized-tactics-comb at
then there's the bone breaker feat line starting with jawbreaker and ending with neck breaker


Sensei.

Motherf#$%ing.

Monk.

1. Abundant Step all over the place.

2. Bardic Performance and Mystic Wisdom to boost allies.

3. Stunning Fist with massive DC.

4. Quivering Palm with massive DC.

5. Touch of Harmony with massive DC to target Will saves.

6. Can't be touched by anything.

7. Pretty great grapple checks.

8. Crushing Blow to debuff as needed.

9. All the ki.

10. Can even take more Qinggong powers to get more damage, like Scorching Ray or Ki Shout.

Build at level 12, before the Dimensional Dervish goodness happens.

Here's the summary:

- 35 AC (great amount of that is Touch)
- Stunning Fist with DC of 27. Just for reference, a STORM GIANT needs to roll a 10 to pass. You have 14 attempts per day.
- Touch of Serenity with DC 25. 12 attempts per day.
- +25 CMB to grapple. Just in case you meet casters. You can Rapid Grapple too!
- +19/+14 to hit, +21 to hit Stunning Fists... and add Inspire Courage on top of that for more accuracy. You usually deal 2d6+4 damage (which is not really usable), but with Inspire Courage for extra damage on that you can get at least some damage in.
- 21 rounds of Bardic Performance per day (inspire courage, competence or greatness)
- Mystic Wisdom to share ki powers!

Human
Male Human monk 12 Archetypes Qinggong Monk (Wholeness of Body), Sensei,
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5, Senses Perception +24
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 35, touch 27, flat-footed 32 (+3 armor, +5 barkskin, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, )
hp ((12d8)+24)
Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +21, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities still mind, Immunities disease, poison,
=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 30 ft., Abundant Step, High Jump, Slow Fall
Special Attacks Ki Pool, Stunning Fist,

=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 28, Cha 7,
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+25 grapple); CMD 37 (39 vs grapple)
Feats Crushing Blow, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mantis Style, Mantis Torment, Mantis Wisdom, Rapid Grappler, Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity
Skills Acrobatics +14, Acrobatics (Jump) +26, Climb +6, Escape Artist +18, Heal +21, Perception +24, Ride +10, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +18, Swim +6,
Traits Reactionary,
Languages Aklo, Common
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, advice, barkskin, bonus feat, bonus ki (12x), diamond body, high jump, insightful strike, maneuver training, mystic wisdom, purity of body, skilled, skills, slow fall, unarmed strike,
Combat Gear Boots of Speed (10 charges),
Other Gear amulet of mighty fists +2, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, headband of inspired wisdom +6, bracers of armor +3, ring of protection +1, belt of physical might (dex/con) +2, cloak of resistance +4, boots of speed, 2000.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
Abundant Step (Su) You can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell Dimension Door. Using this Ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from your Ki pool. Your caster level is 12. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability.

AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +12 to your AC and your CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

Advice (Ex) A sensei's advice is identical to bardic performance (using oratory), allowing him to inspire courage at 1st level, inspire competence at 3rd level, and inspire greatness at 9th level, as a bard of the sensei's level, usable a total number of rounds per day equal to his level + his Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). This ability replaces flurry of blows, fast movement, and improved evasion.

Barkskin (Sp) Spend 1 ki point to use barkskin (self-only) as a spell-like ability (caster level 12).

Bonus Ki (12x) Add +1/4 to the monk's ki pool.

Diamond Body (Su) You are immune to poisons of all kinds.

High Jump (Ex) You can adds +12 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, you always count as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action, you gain a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.

Insightful Strike (Ex) At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 18 ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. You have a pool of 18 ki points, supernatural energy you can use to accomplish amazing feats. As long as you have at least 1 point in your ki pool, you can make a ki strike. Ki strike allows your unarmed attacks to be treated as magic, cold iron, silver and lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can make one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a Flurry of Blows attack. In addition, you can spend 1 point to increase your speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to give yourself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each use of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Maneuver Training (Ex) A monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

Mystic Wisdom (Su) At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target). At 12th level, a sensei may instead spend 1 point from his ki pool (as a swift action) while using advice to provide a single ally within 30 feet with evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, or slow fall. At 18th level, a sensei may spend 2 points to grant one of the abilities listed above to all allies within 30 feet, or diamond body, diamond soul, or improved evasion to a single ally within 30 feet. These abilities function at the sensei's level and last 1 round. This ability replaces the bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

Purity of Body (Ex) You are immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Slow Fall (Ex) You can use a nearby wall to slow your descent. If you are within arm's reach of a wall, you can use it to slow your descent. You take damage as if the fall were 60 feet shorter than it actually is.

Still Mind (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.

Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You can choose to make the target of your Stunning Fist fatigued, sickened for 1 minute, or staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. You must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves, but additional hits do increase the duration.
[/spoiler]


Mahtobedis wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

1. Sneak Attack Damage can be nonlethal. I just offered a build as advice on Assistance with a melee caster build that does almost all nonlethal damage, and ridiculous amounts of it.

2.

3. You can Grapple your opponent to make him helpless: Tied Up. Grappling is a Standard Action. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make a Grapple check as a Move Action once you have already Initiated one. Rapid Grappler lets you make a Grapple Check as a Swift Action after having made a Grapple Check as a Move Action. This means that if you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate, Pin, then Tie Up your Opponent all in 1 round. The Tie Up action imposes a -10, though. This can be lowered to a -5 with the rope Equipment Trick Feat.

You don't even need Rapid Grappler for that if you dip 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. That Level 2 Order Ability, Expert Captor, lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take that -10.

False. In order to maintain a grapple you need to be in a grapple at the start of your turn. Rules for maintaining are pretty clear on this point.

I stand behind my advice. What I said is not false.

I assure you readers that my advice is square with the Ruless as Written, and I will show you.

Mahtobedis wrote:
Rules for maintaining are pretty clear on this point.

Yes, they are.

Core Rulebook, Grappling wrote:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)..... Move, Damage, Pin, Tie Up

It doesn't say "after you have spent a round Grappling your opponent." It says, "once you are grappling your opponent," you get to do those other bad things to him or her. Normally, you can't make more than one check/round because normally, a Grapple Check is a Standard Action, and you only get one of those. But the whole purpose of Feats is to give you special privileges and abilities that the rules don't normally allow, such as:

Greater Grapple wrote:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action.

You get to make a Standard Action and a Move Action in a round.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Actions in Combat wrote:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action,

But just in case that was not clear enough, the Greater Grapple Feat specifies

Greater Grapple wrote:
This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round

It is not appropriate to carry on a rules debate in the Advice Forum. I give my advice with a nuanced understanding of the rules, and I am only responding to someone advising that my advice is illegal, and so Mahtobedis is calling upon me to support my advice within the rules.

Mahtobedis, I am more than willing to carry on a rules debate in the Rules Forum. Start yet another Grappling thread on the Rules Forum, link to it here, and we'll be in a debate. Admittedly, my evidence is old. If you have more recent evidence to offer, or if you feel there is something I overlooked, I would like to hear it. If you convince me, I will retract my advice on this thread.

Meanwhile, I should qualify my advice with the admission that this is a RAW interpretation. I am never very concerned with what the rules were intended to say, so if you are, that might be a problem. RAW is binding in PFS, even upon PFSGMs, but I cannot speak to zainale's or anyone else's GM. You should always check with your GM. Rule 0: the GM is always right.

Also, my Grappling Character includes some very weird features, and will present quite a roleplaying challenge. Expert Captor requires you be in the Order of the Penitent, and members of the Order of the Penitent are obliged to never kill any person intentionally. But my character is also taking the Potion Glutton Feat so as to take Alchemal Extracts and Mutagens as Swift Actions, and one of the Prerequisites of the Potion Glutton Feat is that you worship Uragothoa, the Goddess of Death, Undeath, and Gluttony (and probably some other bad things.). So any GM is likely to raise an eyebrow at a character who worships the Undead Goddess of Death and Undead who is under an oath to never kill anyone. Again, not strictly speaking illegal, but definitely a roleplaying challenge.

But again, Rule 0: the GM is always right. If the campaign you are planning for is not Pathfinder Society, it might not be Golorion or have the same pantheon of deities, so the the prerequisite upon Potion Glutton may mean something completely different: it might disappear, or the the whole Feat might disappear along with the Goddess, or the GM might invent some other Goddess that you will have to worship to take the feat.

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