Drake Brimstone |
12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This post is an attempt to get this question answered with a FAQ.
The question:
Does a feat have to say you can take it more then once in order to take it more then once, even knowing that taking it a second time will not grant any added benefit?
Reasons for this clarification may not be obvious, after all, why would you take a feat if you aren't going to get anything from it?
So, here is a potential scenarios where you may want to do just that.
A fighter selects a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat but uses a "normal" feat to take it, even though it qualifies to be taken as one of his bonus feats. He gains a level and decides he wants a non-combat feat but this level only gives him a combat feat. If he can take that previous feat a second time using his fighter bonus feat for this level, then he can retrain the bonus feat into whatever he wants without having to pay for multiple retraining just to change one feat.
Diego Rossi |
RAW, I would say no.
In a home game? As the GM I would allow him to swap feat if he do it once.
If it become an habit I would ask him if he is using this tactic to get the feat 1 level earlier.
Edit: Raven is right, some class force you into taking a specific feat, so it is possible even if you play strict RAW. But in that instance I would say that the specific rules of the class/archetype supersede the generic rule.
Drake Brimstone |
Why can you not retrain out the first copy of the feat then take the feat with the combat slot?
/cevah
If it was used as a prerequisite for something else then you can't retrain it out without first retraining out what depends on it. For example, if you have Dodge and Mobility, you can't retrain out Dodge because you have to have it for Mobility.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
The core rule book doesn't have a prohibition on taking a feat twice.
It does have a rule they don't stack and we know that stack isn't just for things that are the same. We have examples of two effects with wildly different effects that don't stack so you must pick one or the other.
In Ultimate Combat, it directly says that you can't take a feat twice.
As is with a lot of FAQ, not all the rules are explicitly written out. So you have to infer the rule. In this case, should this get FAQ treatment you would get the answer that you can't directly take a feat twice.
Theconiel |
Some feats (e. g. Fleet) explicitly say that the character can take the feat more than once, and the effects stack. Others (Exotic Weapon Proficiency, for example) say that the character can tke the feat more than once, but the effects do not stack. As I see it, the implication is that the majority of feats cannot be sekected more than once.
dragonhunterq |
With the clarification in Ultimate Combat it is now clear that you need a specific instruction enabling you to take the feat twice.
Unless there is a reason that Ult. Combat doesn't supercede CRB despite being a later publication.
Diego Rossi |
With the clarification in Ultimate Combat it is now clear that you need a specific instruction enabling you to take the feat twice.
Unless there is a reason that Ult. Combat doesn't supercede CRB despite being a later publication.
I can't find that clarification in the page you limnked, can you cite it, please?
Byakko |
dragonhunterq wrote:With the clarification in Ultimate Combat it is now clear that you need a specific instruction enabling you to take the feat twice.
Unless there is a reason that Ult. Combat doesn't supercede CRB despite being a later publication.
I can't find that clarification in the page you limnked, can you cite it, please?
Yes, can you please give a reference on this clarification.
The place you linked actually implies the opposite, that you can take a feat more than once, although without benefit:
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line.
dragonhunterq |
Special: This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once, or whether the feat allows members of specific classes to gain additional benefits.
I could not get the link to go to the specific subsection, sorry.
Unusually this wording is different (just checked)in every other book with a feat section which state:
Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat.
some add an "if any".
Hardly surprising it is easily missed.
Byakko |
dragonhuntereq, that line doesn't say you can't take a feat more than once.
It says that the Special line can list special features of the feat, such as the ability or inability to take the feat more than once.
But if the special line doesn't mention anything one way or another, then you default to the standard rules: that you can, but gain no benefits.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Fair enough, all I can say is that while I would like this whole mess to be clearer, and I agree it is not conclusive, I find it compelling and that line has changed my mind about the intent.
+1
I've been playing 3.5 so long, and so many times I've answered or seen others answer "You can't take a feat twice" so many times. I think the whole culture around the game is that you can't. But I guess that makes it an unwritten rule. One they maybe made a little more clear in UC.
Cevah |
[Look for the id="text" inside of a tag. Add the text after the page link and a hash mark.]ultimate combat wrote:Special: This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once, or whether the feat allows members of specific classes to gain additional benefits.I could not get the link to go to the specific subsection, sorry.
Under Feat Descriptions, it states:
What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
I don't see this keeping you from duplicating a feet.
/cevah
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
I don't see this keeping you from duplicating a feet.
You maybe just forgot the obvious?
I take a feat at 1st with my Level 1 feat choice.
I get a bonus feat (same feat) at level 2 from a class.
I didn't take a feat a second time, but now have the same feat. I need a rule that tells me what to do.
The existence of a rule saying what you do if you have a feat twice has zero to do with whether or not you can choose to take a feat twice.
No one else seemed to point this out.
fretgod99 |
dragonhuntereq, that line doesn't say you can't take a feat more than once.
It says that the Special line can list special features of the feat, such as the ability or inability to take the feat more than once.
But if the special line doesn't mention anything one way or another, then you default to the standard rules: that you can, but gain no benefits.
The line says it will tell you whether or not you can take the feat more than once. In other words, if you can take the feat more than once, it will tell you. While on its face "whether or not" implies it will say yes when you can and it will say no when you can't, in practice, the only thing ever mentioned is when you can. This comports with ordinary usage of "whether or not" ("I will tell you whether or not you can do x" typically means, "You cannot do x unless I tell you you can").
Absolutely, abundantly clear? Perhaps not. But for all practical purposes, it is.
Byakko |
Byakko wrote:dragonhuntereq, that line doesn't say you can't take a feat more than once.
It says that the Special line can list special features of the feat, such as the ability or inability to take the feat more than once.
But if the special line doesn't mention anything one way or another, then you default to the standard rules: that you can, but gain no benefits.
The line says it will tell you whether or not you can take the feat more than once. In other words, if you can take the feat more than once, it will tell you. While on its face "whether or not" implies it will say yes when you can and it will say no when you can't, in practice, the only thing ever mentioned is when you can. This comports with ordinary usage of "whether or not" ("I will tell you whether or not you can do x" typically means, "You cannot do x unless I tell you you can").
Absolutely, abundantly clear? Perhaps not. But for all practical purposes, it is.
Except there are rules stating that you can take any feat you qualify for. Without anything else taking away this permission, you are free to do so.
Additionally, there are specific rules discussing what happens when you do have a feat more than once, which further confirms that this is possible.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Additionally, there are specific rules discussing what happens when you do have a feat more than once, which further confirms that this is possible.
Which would happen if no one ever thought to say "Oh an of course you can't take the same twice".
Also we have comments with were put into Ultimate Combat that indication you can't in fact take a feat twice.
Byakko |
Byakko wrote:Additionally, there are specific rules discussing what happens when you do have a feat more than once, which further confirms that this is possible.Which would happen if no one ever thought to say "Oh an of course you can't take the same twice".
Also we have comments with were put into Ultimate Combat that indication you can't in fact take a feat twice.
Still waiting for that Ultimate Combat reference/quote that says you can't take a feat more than once...
Diego Rossi |
James Risner wrote:Still waiting for that Ultimate Combat reference/quote that says you can't take a feat more than once...Byakko wrote:Additionally, there are specific rules discussing what happens when you do have a feat more than once, which further confirms that this is possible.Which would happen if no one ever thought to say "Oh an of course you can't take the same twice".
Also we have comments with were put into Ultimate Combat that indication you can't in fact take a feat twice.
It is an extended reading of this:
Special: This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, b]whether or not you can take the feat more than once,[/b] or whether the feat allows members of specific classes to gain additional benefits.
Someone read it as "if there isn't a limitation in that line, you can take it more than once".
They later clarified that it is one of the possible interpretations.fretgod99 |
James Risner wrote:Still waiting for that Ultimate Combat reference/quote that says you can't take a feat more than once...Byakko wrote:Additionally, there are specific rules discussing what happens when you do have a feat more than once, which further confirms that this is possible.Which would happen if no one ever thought to say "Oh an of course you can't take the same twice".
Also we have comments with were put into Ultimate Combat that indication you can't in fact take a feat twice.
It's been posted. I get that you disagree with the reading. But there's not much we can do about that.
Byakko |
Say you purchase a ticket to an amusement park which allows you to ride any ride you want, but there's a note on the ticket mentioning that each ride may have a sign posted specifying whether or not you must be a certain height to ride it.
You discover that most rides in the park do not possess a sign discussing height requirements.
It it reasonable to assume that a short person is allowed to ride these sign-less rides?
I would say absolutely.
It simply doesn't make sense to construe that sentence to mean otherwise. To support that reading, you would need some other rule which states the normal "base case" is that no short person is allowed to ride any ride unless they can find a sign waiving height requirements. But the rules we have don't say anything like that.