Piercing the Heavens: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Warpriest


Advice

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don´t know, but i think this guide thing is getting a bit out of hand.
Especially since this looks more and more like guides to win the game and influences a lot of new players into thinking there´s only one way this game can be played.
I also disagree with a lot of the judgements made here. Many are right where pure power is concerned, but a lot of things are disregarded which are also powerful or powerful enough and can add a lot of flavor and roleplaying opportunities.

Silver Crusade

Hayato Ken wrote:

I don´t know, but i think this guide thing is getting a bit out of hand.

Especially since this looks more and more like guides to win the game and influences a lot of new players into thinking there´s only one way this game can be played.
I also disagree with a lot of the judgements made here. Many are right where pure power is concerned, but a lot of things are disregarded which are also powerful or powerful enough and can add a lot of flavor and roleplaying opportunities.

The better guides do take that stuff into account. You'll see a lot of "This isn't the most powerful option you can take, but it's pretty good, and could be fun and flavorful" in a well written guide. This one's still early in the writing process, so give him a chance to hit everything, and I'm sure you'll see some of that.

Scarab Sages

I love that the Vital Strike, Cleave, and Sacred Weapon benefits allow the Warpriest to take options that are usually suboptimal and make them effective.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

N. Jolly, I have no idea if this is something you'd want to put in your guide since it relates to 3PP, but on the other hand, Path of War is pretty popular... I don't think it hurts to mention it on the discussion thread regardless.

The feat Seize the Opportunity from the Path of War expanded playtest seems perfect for a Vital Strike reach build.

Seize the Opportunity wrote:

Seize the Opportunity [Combat]

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity. You still cannot move when it isn’t your turn.


Alex Mack wrote:
I'm afraid I don't catch your meaning...

I mean that there is no real reason to use the Charge action a lot of the time. Vital Striking on a charge is less useful than on an AoO.

Silver Crusade

The Mortonator wrote:

I'm just gotta write down races that should probably get a once over and aren't here yet.

Skinwalker - I actually like base skinwalker for this without a heritage.
Kasatha - Unfair.
Wyvaran - The dragonborn are noble folk with great racials.
Syrinx - Arguably an upgrade to Strix. Probably comes down to Str. or Dex. build.
Orang-pendaks - You blew it up! Aaah. Damn you. Damn you all to hell.

I'll work on getting them down soon, thanks for the heads up on those.

Alex Mack wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:


The later is really the only one I think is relevant to a Warpriest. Aside from being a Half-Orc and nabbing their teamwork charge feat into the immediate action one it seems.

I'm afraid I don't catch your meaning...

There's a number of really good threads on this here board on the ins and outs of the warpriest.

Here's one on spells:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rqlf?Best-lvl-2-warpriest-buff-spell

Here's one on builds:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sqil?Warpriest-what-is-it-good-for-Post-your-b uild#1

Lot's of awesome advice to be found there...

I'll be sure to check them out, I want to finish feats now, but I think I have an idea for the roles section. So far I have:

Reach
Ranged
Thrown
Vital Strike
Cleave
Caster
Tank

Any other roles I should be including in the roles section?

eakratz wrote:
Under Fervor you mention slightly worse for evil because of self healing. I do believe that they could still self heal by memorizing cure spells. A swift action CMW ain't too shabby. Still slightly worse but an option.

You're burning a spell and fervor for that, which again makes it slightly worse.

ZZTRaider wrote:

N. Jolly, I have no idea if this is something you'd want to put in your guide since it relates to 3PP, but on the other hand, Path of War is pretty popular... I don't think it hurts to mention it on the discussion thread regardless.

The feat Seize the Opportunity from the Path of War expanded playtest seems perfect for a Vital Strike reach build.

Seize the Opportunity wrote:

Seize the Opportunity [Combat]

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, BAB +1
Benefit: When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity. You still cannot move when it isn’t your turn.

Sorry, but my rule is that I won't include third party content for something I didn't write for. I made it back in the Barbarian guide (amusingly for DSP material since I was too lazy to want to include it), but it's become my rule. Call it selfish if you want, but that's kind of the thing you're allowed to do when you write a guide.

Hayato Ken wrote:

I don´t know, but i think this guide thing is getting a bit out of hand.

Especially since this looks more and more like guides to win the game and influences a lot of new players into thinking there´s only one way this game can be played.
I also disagree with a lot of the judgements made here. Many are right where pure power is concerned, but a lot of things are disregarded which are also powerful or powerful enough and can add a lot of flavor and roleplaying opportunities.

You come into an optimization guide and say this? Why? What's your end game here? I'm sorry, but this annoys the hell out of me.

Spoiler:
I can't determine what you find flavorful, that's not the job of this guide, this guide is for the mechanical side of the class, that's the point here. Do you understand why there's even different colors in the system instead of one build? Because I want people to make their own choices, but be aware of the power of those choices. You can make a character out of all yellow options if you want, that's fine, it's flavorful, but the player should be aware that on the mechanical side, it will be weaker.

Maybe a player wants to make a flavorful concept but also doesn't want to be completely trash. That's where a guide comes in to show them the best options of doing so. My guide isn't made to 'help you win', and the fact that there's multiple options that are listed as viable that normally wouldn't be (vital strike, cleave, throwing) shows that there's more than one way to play instead of the 1 single way that you seem to think I'm advocating.

If you want to have a guide that involves flavor as well as efficient mechanics (which I attempt to do, but obviously am not doing well enough in your opinion), literally nothing is stopping you from making your own guide, it's free and friendly to the environment. But to come into my guide and to tell me that I'm advocating some 'one true way' (which again I'm not) or not taking flavor enough into consideration is rude as hell and it's not constructive.

Let me know if I'm missing any big feats, running through the combat feats then the general ones, after which I'll probably swing back around to traits.

Scarab Sages

The Mortonator wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
I'm afraid I don't catch your meaning...
I mean that there is no real reason to use the Charge action a lot of the time. Vital Striking on a charge is less useful than on an AoO.

There actually is. If you are limited to making a single move or attack, you can partial charge, or if the enemy is farther away than a single move, you can still attack them with the charge. As a melee focus character, the hardest thing to do is to be in range of your target. Charge is a useful way to break action economy to enable that when you can't just move and attack.


N. Jolly: for roles you should include Stealther since the mantis zealot archetype fills that role.

Silver Crusade

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I was thinking about a whip wielding warpriest of Calistria. Her domain choices aren't that great, but I like the 1st level Trickery blessing, and I'd probably go with Luck for my second choice. All the warpriest bonus feats and ability to skip some prerequisites on the bonus feats, should let you do more than many classes with a whip. Namely, a tripping build and an enforcer build in the same PC, doing it all by level 7.

Here's the feat chain, based on a half-orc build:

1: Dirty Fighting
1 (WP bonus): Weapon Focus (Whip)
3: Whip Mastery
3 (WP bonus): Improved Trip
5: Enforcer
6 (WP bonus): Greater Trip
7: Improved Whip Mastery

Improved Trip and Enforcer can be reversed, depending on which you'd rather have at levels 3 and 4.

The point would be that at level 7, you can trip someone from 10 feet away, attack them for non-lethal damage as an AoO while they're falling, then intimidate them to make them shaken as a free action. Unfortunately, it really does require that many feats to do all of that at once, which is why most whip wielding classes (bards, clerics or inquisitors of Calistria, etc) can't pull this off until much higher level.

Half-orcs get +2 racial on intimidation, which along with the normal Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored + Divine Favor combo makes them an outstanding race for this build.

The other very good option is human. That would let you use the level 1 bonus feat for Intimidating Prowess, or else do the alternate skilled thing to get Skill Focus three times, starting at level 1, using that for Intimidate first. Or you could just use the level 1 feat to get some of the feats listed at an earlier level. And you can use the favored class bonus to get an additional bonus feat at level 6 to get Improved Whip Mastery one level sooner, pulling off the big combo at level 6, or just pick up a different feat.

At higher levels, tripping becomes less effective, as you face flying or very large foes, so you'll need a backup plan. That's where the spellcasting and more combat feats come in. I'm thinking Power Attack and/or Weapon Specialization at level 9, just to boost your damage output.

Scarab Sages

I really don't see the need to go with Calistria on a Whip Build. Half-Orcs gain racial proficiency, and Human can gain racial proficiency with both whip and scorpion whip, negating the need for whip mastery.

Silver Crusade

Grond wrote:
N. Jolly: for roles you should include Stealther since the mantis zealot archetype fills that role.

I'm having a hard time with this one, I mean aside from sneak attack, there's nothing that really jives with it in class features. I'll leave it up for now, but if you've got suggestions on how to make this combat monster stealthy, I'm up for listening.

Silver Crusade

Yes, there are racial ways to get whip proficiency, instead of worshiping that deity. But Calistria's just cool. :)

Scorpion whip and skipping Whip Mastery doesn't work for this build, for two reasons. First, scorpion whip is lethal, and the Enforcer feat only works with non-lethal damage. Second Whip Mastery is a prerequisite to Improved Whip Mastery, which is needed to take AOO's with a whip, which is the point of Greater Trip.


The real issue I keep having with the idea of a whip-based warpriest is how much does it really give you over a regular polearm and lunge (which you can take at level 6)? The whip costs you two feats to even threaten, attacks up to 15' and threatens up to 10', is finesseable, and is one-handed. A regular polearm threatens at 10' right out of the box, can attack up to 15' with lunge, and is two handed.

I love the idea of a whip-based warpriest, but every time I start to stat one out I just hate that I'm spending feats just to threaten and deal lethal damage, which delays all the normal reach combat sorts of feats. I'd kind of rather be taking combat reflexes and pushing assault than the whip feats.

@Imbicatus, Whip Mastery is still needed to get improved whip mastery and to avoid provoking, and a reach build that doesn't threaten but does provoke is sort of like bad archery.


The Whip-Warpriest beats the Polearm Warpriest in Cool-Factor by orders of magnitude :P

Silver Crusade

Saldiven wrote:
The Whip-Warpriest beats the Polearm Warpriest in Cool-Factor by orders of magnitude :P

It really, really does.

Also @Alex Mack, you said Gorum devotees could get lead blades, mind telling me how? Again, I'm still checking out all the content for the class, so any heads up for things like this would be super helpful.


In inner sea gods, it opens up Unique Spell Rules for deities. So in the Deity block it has this unique spell rules section and it allows the divine classes to learn some spells that are fitting for your god.
Archives of Nethys has this info in the deity pages.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:
Sorry, but my rule is that I won't include third party content for something I didn't write for. I made it back in the Barbarian guide (amusingly for DSP material since I was too lazy to want to include it), but it's become my rule. Call it selfish if you want, but that's kind of the thing you're allowed to do when you write a guide.

That's totally fair. Like I said, wasn't sure if it was something you'd want to include, but I thought it was at least worth mentioning for anyone reading through the discussion thread.

N. Jolly wrote:
Also @Alex Mack, you said Gorum devotees could get lead blades, mind telling me how? Again, I'm still checking out all the content for the class, so any heads up for things like this would be super helpful.

I can answer this one. In Inner Sea Gods (p67), "Clerics and inquisitors [of Gorum] add lead blades to their respective spell lists as a 3rd-level spell."

Owner - Gator Games & Hobby

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N. Jolly wrote:
Also @Alex Mack, you said Gorum devotees could get lead blades, mind telling me how? Again, I'm still checking out all the content for the class, so any heads up for things like this would be super helpful.

It's from Inner Sea Gods

EDIT: Bah! This is a Warpriest Guide not a Ninja Guide!


Saldiven wrote:
The Whip-Warpriest beats the Polearm Warpriest in Cool-Factor by orders of magnitude :P

Except maybe a Spear-Dancing Style TWF-Nodachi Warpriest.

Silver Crusade

Saldiven wrote:
The Whip-Warpriest beats the Polearm Warpriest in Cool-Factor by orders of magnitude :P

Yeah, it's the cool factor, just like picking Calistria.

Ironically, my first warpriest is a polearm warpriest. If I actually make this idea into a PC, it'll be my second warpriest.

But again, I'm not taking Whip Mastery for lethal damage. The Enforcer feat gives you a free intimidate to demoralize when you do non-lethal damage. So the entire build is actually designed for non-lethal, which really can't be done easily with any other reach weapon.

The real question is whether the vicious weapon property can be used with a non-lethal weapon. I don't see anything in the rules to prevent it, but it doesn't make logical sense.

I just realized that I should be able to afford +1 whip by level 3 or 4, and Sacred Weapon will let me start to upgrade it with special properties at level 4, so this build could do a LOT more damage than expected from a whip. We're talking 3d6+5 damage at level 4, using just +4 strength, a +1 whip, and Sacred Weapon to make it vicious. This ain't your typical 1d3 whip.

I really like this idea - a Calistria worshiper who causes lots of pain and intimidates people, but doesn't do lethal damage. After all, if you kill them, then the revenge is over too quickly. And the fact that the vicious damage to myself would be non-lethal would make it less dangerous to me.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:

In inner sea gods, it opens up Unique Spell Rules for deities. So in the Deity block it has this unique spell rules section and it allows the divine classes to learn some spells that are fitting for your god.

Archives of Nethys has this info in the deity pages.

Thanks, knowing where it is helps a lot. I think I'll add my suggestions for non golarion deities for this as well in the guide.

Also for Fromper's whip build, Fury's Fall/Snare could be fun additions, land some hard trips and entangle for even more penalties. It's a hard debuff, especially adding demoralization into it.


Oh yes, Calistrian warpriests can be pretty fun, in particular (imo) cult leaders, who actually have a touch more skill points and social aptitude.

Also, I am interested if someone will do the VMC options for a warpriest.The bonus feats warpriests get make this a rather interesting option. A few thoughts on what they offer:

Barbarian: Rage, uncanny dodge, and a rage power, with a weakish DR and greater rage coming very late. Between fervor allowing you to buff yourself quickly and a decent base combat ability, barbarian VMC is not a bad choice for combat-oriented warpriests, especially those with a two-handed weapon.

Bard: this is a mostly utility-oriented VMC, but it is a potentially great one. Bardic knowledge and versatile performance help your few skill points make do, and bardic music is, if somewhat action-intensive at first, welcome in a larger party. While your charisma isn't great, by the time you get bardic music you will have the character level to ensure you have a few rounds of being awesome. Overall, a good support option. Lore master and the extra performances come in quite late - I am not so sure how good they are, but at least you won't bother much.

Cleric: if your DM allows you to take this (the warprierst is a cleric/fighter hybrid), you get an extra domain and all the goodies that gives, and some channel tricks. Seeing as the extra channel will probably not stack with your own, this VMC is mostly interesting for the good domains.

Druid: Wild empathy is meh, the companion is good, but it takes until level 11 to properly scale. At higher levels, you get wildshaping. This VMC can get quite powerful later in the game, but it starts rather underwhelming. Also, note that you will have the druid's armor restrictions, which could be an issue for some builds.

Fighter: like with the cleric, we start with whether as a warpriest you are allowed to take that VMC. If yes, you have some options. Bravery is pretty bad in and of itself, but weapon and armor training are nice. In fact, as a warpriest you are likely able to take advanced weapon training (and likely advanced armor training, when it comes) as feats, and that can end up being pretty nice.

Monk: I think the sacred fist archetype generally does it better. I mean, if you are going to be almost naked and punching people...

Paladin: detect evil can be handy, but I am not sold on trading it for a level 3 feat.. Lay on hands is okay if it stacks with your fervor, and smite is, well smite. Mercy comes a bit late considering that you have spells to cure those conditions on your list, and divine bond is great if the game lasts long enough - but that is a pretty big if. This VMC isn't bad, but there are better ones out there, I think.

Ranger: overall, this needs a class with more skill points to shine. Track is okay, Favored enemy and favor terrain are great, but I find the higher level abilities to be quite forgettable for a warpriest.

Rogue: good for a mantis zealot or a cult leader, especially if the sneak attack stacks. However, any warpriest can still appreciate the mix of offensive and defensive features, especially if going for two weapons.

Sorcerer: a great way to get the bonuses of a nice sorcerer bloodline without having to get a skill focus and a high charisma. Something like the draconic, orc, or abyssal bloodline could be pretty handy for a combat-oriented warpriest.

Wizard: good utility if that is what you are looking for. Some wizard schools are definitely worth pursuing, and the familiar folio brings a lot of options to get more mileage out of the familiar. A well-buffed mauler familiar can get pretty scary, for example. The cantrip is the main loss, but you sometimes have to take the good with the bad.

Alchemist: I want to like this, but as a warpriest you probably won't care about the alchemy bonuses or the bombs. If for some reason you do, great. If not, I cannot recommend this only for the mutagen.

Cavalier: a good fit thematically and mechanically. You are already a champion of your god, so the challenge is a good way to solidify that. There are some pretty nice orders out there, and the tactician ability is quite handy. Note that while you only get one challenge per day, from the VMC, nothing stops you from getting the extra challenge feat.

Gunslinger: I am not familiar with firearms, but if you want to use them, this seems like a good option.

Inquisitor: stern gaze helps with social skills you are likely to want anyway. Judgement at a lower level isn't much, but might be worth trading a feat for. Solo Tactics, on the other hand, is solid. If the campaign lasts long enough, additional judgement and solid judgement should be okay.

Magus: arcane pool is great, and the magus arcana abilities have some great options. Spellstrike isn't very good for you, though. Note that you can only use it with spells that are on the magus spell list. How many spells are shared between the magus and the cleric lists? Still, the rest of the features may just be good enough to compensate - especially if you find ways to get more spells on your list.

Oracle: the curse is flavorful and eventually more or less a wash. Some revelations are great, and despite not qualifying for extra revelations, there should be a few good choices in every mystery. Do mind that you will be fairly low level for any effects based off your revelations. The orison is a pain in the posterior. Still, with the right choice this could be great.

Summoner: you get a weaker summon monster once a day and a nerfed eidolon. The summons eventually get better, but I am not really convinced that it is a great trade, unless you really want to play a summoner. In that case, why not build a summoner or a herald caller from the get-go?

Witch: Familiars and hexes are quite powerful, even with the express mention that you cannot get extra hex. The cantrip is a pain, but at least it comes off a different list. Potentially useful.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Barbarian: Rage, uncanny dodge, and a rage power, with a weakish DR and greater rage coming very late. Between fervor allowing you to buff yourself quickly and a decent base combat ability, barbarian VMC is not a bad choice for combat-oriented warpriests, especially those with a two-handed weapon.

So, my initial thought is that Rage cuts off your spellcasting, which is one of the great things about being a Warpriest. On the other hand, though, you can swift action Lesser Restoration to remove fatigue after a Rage as well, which could come in handy sometimes...

On the whole, I think it's probably not worth it, but it may be more viable than it seems up front.

Dark Archive

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Chess Pwn wrote:

In inner sea gods, it opens up Unique Spell Rules for deities. So in the Deity block it has this unique spell rules section and it allows the divine classes to learn some spells that are fitting for your god.

Archives of Nethys has this info in the deity pages.

Inner Sea Gods was published before Advanced Class Guide so it lists additions to the Clerics, Inquisitors and Paladin spell lists. I tried looking but I could not find anywhere that indicated if a Warpriests counts as one of these. Could you point us in the right direction?


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DubiousYak wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

In inner sea gods, it opens up Unique Spell Rules for deities. So in the Deity block it has this unique spell rules section and it allows the divine classes to learn some spells that are fitting for your god.

Archives of Nethys has this info in the deity pages.
Inner Sea Gods was published before Advanced Class Guide so it lists additions to the Clerics, Inquisitors and Paladin spell lists. I tried looking but I could not find anywhere that indicated if a Warpriests counts as one of these. Could you point us in the right direction?

The warpriest uses a cleric's list. (And ergo the changes to the cleric's list.)

Silver Crusade

The Shaman wrote:

Oh yes, Calistrian warpriests can be pretty fun, in particular (imo) cult leaders, who actually have a touch more skill points and social aptitude.

Also, I am interested if someone will do the VMC options for a warpriest.The bonus feats warpriests get make this a rather interesting option. A few thoughts on what they offer

Really, that's more than what I'm looking to do here, and there's already a great guide on VMCs and what they offer, I don't think they need too much mention here, although if there's any particularly strong VMCs (like fighter for instance), I'll be sure to add them.

The feat section is done, and to give you an idea of how much effort goes into a guide like this, the feat section alone is about 7,000 words. I'm trying to be as comprehensive here as possible (which is why the weapon master handbook got it's own section), so it'll be slow goings. I don't think I'll be doing a full spell section for this, just things that are worth quickening, but that's because the thought of doing all those spells is daunting (much like feats were, but I didn't know what I was getting into there.)

If you like the guide so far, please check out the donate link in the guide, and thanks for checking out what I've got up so far.


ZZTRaider wrote:
So, my initial thought is that Rage cuts off your spellcasting, which is one of the great things about being a Warpriest. On the other hand, though, you can swift action Lesser Restoration to remove fatigue after a Rage as well, which could come in handy sometimes...

You can do it, but it would take 2 rage powers and a feat (mad magic). Generally, it is an either/or issue. I like the concept, but it works a lot better if you can just drop a few buffs and then get to smashing.

Silver Crusade

Traits are up now, and seriously props to TheOneHawk for their awesome trait guide, made my job so much easier.

Seriously, there's so many good traits for this class, picking only 2 (or 3) is going to be very difficult.

Next section I want to work on is archetypes, although I'm being told that I might actually have to include a prestige class section in this guide. Thoughts on that?


Well, if you want to do it :) . I expect that the vindicator, exalted and evangelist PrCs would work okay, though I am not sure if losing the major blessings would be worth it.


A quick note for those trying to determine between cleric or warpriest in terms of building a fighting priest.

They break about even in terms of combat.

Clerics don't have the feat access of the warpriest but the other tools at their disposal (divine interference, conductive weapons, standard action summons, quicken spell) combined with their full casting go a long way.

I remember when I did a build comparison early after the release and where the warpriest's action economy definitely helped get them into the fight faster the cleric simply had more and stronger options available to them. The warpriest was better at dpr but the cleric often required less buffing to get the job done and could do really really mean things like poke people with a chaos touched bestow cursed spear from 20ft. away.


N. Jolly, I'm always surprised about how every time you manage to reference shows or games that I love.

That said, I'd like to point out that you understandably rate low the Ranged Weapon Trick because it forces you to readied attacks instead of full attacks, but I'd say it synergizes well with the Overwatch Style that you rated as green


TarkXT wrote:
I remember when I did a build comparison early after the release

No offense meant (I have no reason to disparage your figures) but the Warpriest has gone a lot more tools over time. WMH gave a lot to a Warpriest as well as a few other things here and there. A well optimized cleric is a known factor while I feel like a well optimized Warpriest is still somewhat of a question mark.

Silver Crusade

The Shaman wrote:
Well, if you want to do it :) . I expect that the vindicator, exalted and evangelist PrCs would work okay, though I am not sure if losing the major blessings would be worth it.

Yeah, I plan on looking over the major ones, although losing out on bonus feats is a hard pill to swallow for everything but Evangelist which is amazing forever.

Entryhazard wrote:

N. Jolly, I'm always surprised about how every time you manage to reference shows or games that I love.

That said, I'd like to point out that you understandably rate low the Ranged Weapon Trick because it forces you to readied attacks instead of full attacks, but I'd say it synergizes well with the Overwatch Style that you rated as green

I have amazing taste in everything, also only the opening quote was related to why I picked this theme, and because TTGL is amazing. Anyone clicked the link for table of content yet? Remember, it'll always link to something relevant to the guide.

Even a bad option can have synergy with a decent to good option, which was my thinking here.

The Mortonator wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
I remember when I did a build comparison early after the release
No offense meant (I have no reason to disparage your figures) but the Warpriest has gone a lot more tools over time. WMH gave a lot to a Warpriest as well as a few other things here and there. A well optimized cleric is a known factor while I feel like a well optimized Warpriest is still somewhat of a question mark.

I really have to agree with Mort here. Even pre WHB there was a decent combat difference, but with WMH out, Warpriest picks up a slew of options that it didn't have before and that it can pick up before the cleric (some that it can pick up that the cleric just can't as well), meaning that at this point the warpriest is probably a stronger combatant than the cleric, at least damage wise.

The other thread has mentioned that reach and bad touch style should be included, thoughts on that?


N. Jolly wrote:


I really have to agree with Mort here. Even pre WHB there was a decent combat difference, but with WMH out, Warpriest picks up a slew of options that it didn't have before and that it can pick up before the cleric (some that it can pick up that the cleric just can't as well), meaning that at this point the warpriest is probably a stronger combatant than the cleric, at least damage wise.

In terms of damage I never contended. It's simply that the cleric can do good damage and so much more.

Clerics don't need to get excited about vital strike at 6 when we've been swift acting enlarge person since level 1.

As for Bad Touch or reach?

I honestly don't think they're worth it for a warpriest. Reach is a style borne from necessity. A necessity the warpriest doesn't really worry about. Bad touch is possible, but that one came about because clerics have really nutty touch powers like Chaos and Madness which are amazing from 1 all the way to 20. I don't think they have anything equivalent.


So, discussing TWF-

It mostly works since warpriest has decent bonuses on every hit. One of their main class features is being able to swift action cast a self buff, and divine favor is a buff they have from the get go. +1 to +4 (with fate's favored, obviously) works pretty well for a TWF style.

The damage dice help, but it isn't the only thing going on. But divine favor is practically a class feature in and of itself. It helps to boost things enough that you have no problems going with TWF. And of course, getting sneak attack on top of that via archetype basically means you are like a slayer that trades his full BAB for spell casting.

Due to the problems with spell casting and TWF, you might find yourself restricted to either double weapons or glove weapons like the cestus. Of course...with outslug style giving you a ton of mobility and range for full attacks... getting stuck with the cestus rather than kukri is not a bad thing. Full attack enemies that are far enough away that some races have to use their entire move action to reach (halflings in fullplate at least) is not a bad thing at all.

I don't get why outslug is viewed as orange. sure, the initial feat is 'meh', but the end of the style is fantastic. It makes lunge free (rather nice not to face -2 ac), and together with weave you basically get +10' of reach for your full attacks. That makes it fairly close to a pseudo pounce in many situations. And the 10' movement that doesn't draw AoOs, along with the 10' reach with lunge, means you can close in on pretty much any creature without risk of AoOs- nice in campaigns such as rise of the rune lords that are giant heavy.


Made my own thread for the below, then figured hey, lets bring it straight to the warpreists :) Specific advice for the below would be super appreciated:

I have an image in my head of a goblin who starts life as a rogue (3 levels unchained rogue (to get dex to damage)) and then finds "god" and goes the route of a dex only based (no strength to speak of) two weapon wielding warpreist with the fire and trickery domains.

I'd need a god with those domains and an appropriate light weapon - help?

And feat/build design help would be appreciated. This is just a concept right now, but one i think could turn out really fun.

I wish that goblins love of fire would actually show in game as a buff to their fire spells like gnomes have, but all the goblin fire love seems tied up in the alchemist. Ce la vie!

Suggestions welcome! I know this won't be a power class, this is more for fun, but i DO want it to be at least moderately effective.


lemeres wrote:
Due to the problems with spell casting and TWF, you might find yourself restricted to either double weapons or glove weapons like the cestus.

Also, going with a glove/unarmed offhand paired with a one-handed weapon will allow all single attacks to be made two-handed with a good weapon like a scimitar, at the cost of an extra Weapon Focus. Using a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes unarmed offhand with Dragon Style is pretty nice for the fact that Dragon Style will overrule the normal offhand strength modifier once per round.

Silver Crusade

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Timdog, checking the Pathfinder Wiki, I see only 3 gods that give both fire and trickery domains: Asmodeus, Kro'akoth, and Zursvaater. Maybe it's just me, but I kinda like the idea of a goblin worshiping the king of fire giants, thinking he's a big enough man to fit in with the giant types. But what campaign is this for? All 3 of these deities are evil, so these really work best in an evil campaign.

And none of them have a favored weapon that works with weapon finesse, but you don't have to use their favored weapon. You can take the warpriest's level 1 Weapon Focus on any weapon you want to make it a sacred weapon.

I know goblins love fire, but what exactly are you planning on doing with fire? If you'd consider trading that for a different blessing, you'd have a LOT more good possibilities. It's not like the cleric domain where you actually get fire spells, so I don't see it as quite as thematic for a pyro PC.


Also, a note on spells and metamagic feats - the somewhat obscure spell Admonishing Ray opens up a ton of nice aggressive spell options, not least because it's been ruled that Divine Favor affects rays. So Toppling Spell is an interesting option, or with Magical Lineage: Admonishing Ray at level 11, you could use a level 3 spell slot to throw an empowered ~75 damage Non-Lethal Death Ray (tm) - or put one in a Spell Storing weapon.


BadBird wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Due to the problems with spell casting and TWF, you might find yourself restricted to either double weapons or glove weapons like the cestus.
Also, going with a glove/unarmed offhand paired with a one-handed weapon will allow all single attacks to be made two-handed with a good weapon like a scimitar, at the cost of an extra Weapon Focus. Using a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes unarmed offhand with Dragon Style is pretty nice for the fact that Dragon Style will overrule the normal offhand strength modifier once per round.

Certainly an option...although I am a bit reluctant, both due to the rather nice advantages I detailed with outslug style and because you may need to spend extra feats to get your sacred weapon going full force. Just a minor detail when you deal with class features tied to weapon focus- they don't play well with heterogeneous weapon sets.

Now a slayer or ranger? Absolutely take advantage of that. They are STR based TWFers, and they don't have much tied into specific weapons. So they should totally feel free to mix and match for advantages.

BadBird wrote:
Also, a note on spells and metamagic feats - the somewhat obscure spell Admonishing Ray opens up a ton of nice aggressive spell options, not least because it's been ruled that Divine Favor affects rays. So Toppling Spell is an interesting option, or with Magical Lineage: Admonishing Ray at level 11, you could use a level 3 spell slot to throw an empowered ~75 damage Non-Lethal Death Ray (tm) - or put one in a Spell Storing weapon.

EDIT- just noticed the comment and decided to chime in- this spell is basically scorching ray, but nonlethal rather than fire. So advantages and disadvantages.

Disadvantage- not working well in undead heavy campaigns, and the like, obviously. Immunity is something to watch out for.

Advantage- one of the main problems with scorching ray is that a lot of things have mild (5-10) fire resist. Since the spell spreads over multiple hits, it doesn't have the big punching power of spells like a metamagic'd fireball. That is a primary limiting factor of using it as a blast spell- it does decent enough damage, but it sucks when something is even mildly fire resistant.

This is not so much a problem with admonishing ray- creatures are either immune or they are not. Little in between. As long as you aren't shooting against obvious stuff like skeletons or golems, it should generally have full effect.

So if nothing else, having a couple of these memorized can be useful when you need ranged attacks, but don't want to waste an action to grab your bow. This way, you can shoot off decent enough damage as a standard action, then do a move action (either to close in on the far off target, or to draw the bow). Actual archery is far better (just comes from enhancements, deadly aim, stat bonus, etc), but this can be useful so you are doing 'something' more useful than just doing a standard action attack with a bow or with a melee weapon.


Should have mentioned: home brew campaign, reasonably flexible dm. I'd be allowed to take this feat:

Somatic Weapon

You can satisfy a somatic component using a chosen weapon.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Spellcraft 1 rank

Benefit: Choose a weapon for which you have taken Weapon Focus. When casting a spell with a somatic component, you can satisfy the component of that spell as if the hand holding it were free. You cannot use this feat while grappled unless the weapon you are holding is light.

Note: Spellcasting this way does not prevent attacks of opportunity triggered by spellcasting.

So that fixes that problem of TWF.

As far as fire - i just wanted it because it was theme appropriate to the little buggers. My DM MAY let me select spells from the fire domain if i sweet talk him if i take fire blessing.


lemeres wrote:
Certainly an option...although I am a bit reluctant, both due to the rather nice advantages I detailed with outslug style and because you may need to spend extra feats to get your sacred weapon going full force. Just a minor detail when you deal with class features tied to weapon focus- they don't play well with heterogeneous weapon sets.

Well, simply taking a second Weapon Focus is fairly painless on a Warpriest, but if the plan is to go into a whole run of weapon feats then it's more of an issue. Personally I'd rather have a mainhand-to-2-hand weapon with a 15-20 threat and a less exciting offhand, since all single attacks are much better and half of TWF attacks are a bit better, at the cost of half of TWF attacks being a bit worse. Plus, a TWF Warpriest only really gets one "fighter" feat anyhow when taking TWF feats early, so chaining weapon feats is off the table anyhow. It's interesting that there's nothing preventing the use of the Outslug Style chain with other weapons, save that you miss out on a +2.

Silver Crusade

TarkXT wrote:

In terms of damage I never contended. It's simply that the cleric can do good damage and so much more.

Clerics don't need to get excited about vital strike at 6 when we've been swift acting enlarge person since level 1.

As for Bad Touch or reach?

I honestly don't think they're worth it for a warpriest. Reach is a style borne from necessity. A necessity the warpriest doesn't really worry about. Bad touch is possible, but that one came about because clerics have really nutty touch powers like Chaos and Madness which are amazing from 1 all the way to 20. I don't think they have anything equivalent.

Yeah, that much is obvious, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. The guide mentions you don't have the staying power of a full caster, and domain spells/abilities are awesome. You can steal a domain ability with VMC, so that much is already covered. Cleric VMC is seriously nice for bad touch, and while you need to take a less than stellar blessing to snag them, you can also trade them for a divine fighting techique, which can be a bit of an alignment shuffle to make sure you're sharing the deity's alignment even if you're not worshiping them (important for non golarion), since non golarion doesn't tie the styles to any specific deity. It's a bit of a loophole, so I'd talk with your GM, but seriously I like the idea of Urgortha's priest being able to take blade and tankard style as a sign of excess and gluttony.

Perhaps I should put up something about the deities in non golarion games, since gods are kind of an important issue here.

Archetypes and VMCs are done, I don't really think I like warpriest multiclassing, so unless someone has a good suggestion for multiclassing, I'm basically done with that section.


The Shaman wrote:

{. . .}

Fighter: like with the cleric, we start with whether as a warpriest you are allowed to take that VMC. If yes, you have some options. Bravery is pretty bad in and of itself, but weapon and armor training are nice. In fact, as a warpriest you are likely able to take advanced weapon training (and likely advanced armor training, when it comes) as feats, and that can end up being pretty nice.

Think of Bravery as being usually more useful than the Cantrip or Orison that you get from VMC some spellcasting class.

The Weapon Master's Handbook has made this VMC and the parent class a LOT better, and in the future, the Armor Master's Hadnbook will do the same. Since no rule explicitly forbids you from taking a hybrid class VMC one of its parents, just not a class VMC itself(*), and since it is allowed to take levels in a hybrid class and its parent classes(**), a hybrid class VMC one of its parents should be legal.

(*)Actually, it would be cool if VMC were designed so that you could take a class VMC itself, sort of along the lines of going Kineticist taking the same element 2 times to get more specialized powers, or in this case alternatively going a class VMC itself with a different archetype.

(**)Multiclassing between hybrid classes and their parent classes was forbidden in the ACG Playtest, but this restriction was dropped in the real ACG.

The Shaman wrote:

{. . .}

Paladin: detect evil can be handy, but I am not sold on trading it for a level 3 feat.. Lay on hands is okay if it stacks with your fervor, and smite is, well smite. Mercy comes a bit late considering that you have spells to cure those conditions on your list, and divine bond is great if the game lasts long enough - but that is a pretty big if. This VMC isn't bad, but there are better ones out there, I think.

I would say that VMC Paladin is just bad. Not the worst (see below), but bad.

The Shaman wrote:
Ranger: overall, this needs a class with more skill points to shine. Track is okay, Favored enemy and favor terrain are great, but I find the higher level abilities to be quite forgettable for a warpriest. [/b]

This one's another stinker, unless you know exactly what type of enemies you are going to be up against in most of the campaign (and they are of very limited types), unless you find a way to cheese Instant Enemy onto your spell list.

The Shaman wrote:

{. . .]

Gunslinger: I am not familiar with firearms, but if you want to use them, this seems like a good option.

Okay, we've managed to find a VMC that is far worse than Paladin or Ranger. It doesn't even give you proficiency in firearms until 3rd level, and doesn't even give you the Grit class feature or Deeds until 11th level. You are far better off just using 2 feats or a single level Gunslinger dip to get firearm proficiency and Grit/Deeds.

The Shaman wrote:

{. . .}

Magus: arcane pool is great, and the magus arcana abilities have some great options. Spellstrike isn't very good for you, though. Note that you can only use it with spells that are on the magus spell list. How many spells are shared between the magus and the cleric lists? Still, the rest of the features may just be good enough to compensate - especially if you find ways to get more spells on your list.

If you get the Broad Study Magus Arcana, the Magus spell list restriction for Spellstrike goes away, although using a Magus Arcana just for this does hurt.

The Shaman wrote:

{. . .}

Witch: Familiars and hexes are quite powerful, even with the express mention that you cannot get extra hex. The cantrip is a pain, but at least it comes off a different list. Potentially useful.

Here is another one that stinks worse by far than Paladin and Ranger. Your 1st Hex is stick at 1 effective Witch level until you get your 2nd Hex at 15th level, at which point it advances to 8th level, but the 2nd Hex is stuck at 1st level; at 19th level, your Major Hex is stuck at 10th level. And you get a Cantrip at 11th level. So you do with VMC Wizard, but at least in that case you are taking the bad with the good; in this case, you are taking the bad with the bad.

Now I need to go off and read the actual new Warpriest guide . . . .

Grand Lodge

N. Jolly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I also think you are overselling the healing on fervor. The healing from fervor is very small. The swift action spell casting is going to be the primary use of the ability, using it for a heal is almost always going to be less useful than a swift action spell.
Fervor's text and rating have been updated to make sure people know the big sell here is the swift action casting, let me know if this needs to be focused on even more.

I am a 9th level warpriest and my first action is ALWAYS Fervor to swift cast divine favor, move in to attack.

ALWAYS! I have only once moved up slower, and that was to fervor swift cast, cast, move up, and rail against my opponents letting them know the wrath of Gorum was upon them. It was unbelievable for RP effect.

I might have used fervor to heal 2 or 3 times in 9 levels. I don't think you can stress enough this aspect of the class.


Okay, got done reading through the guide.

Since Paizo people keep recommending Warpriest as "Paladin of Any Alignment", and have the Champion of the Faith archetype for this, I suppose another Role to add is Paladin/Antipaladin Substitute, even if it isn't actually very good for this.

Looks like Sacred Fist actually needs an Unchained version, because right now it still has the lousy Classic Monk Weapon Proficiency list. Unfortunately, nothing you can do about that except maybe add a note to that effect in the sub-section for this archetype.

In a lot of places in the guide, you mention "feign" -- I think that this is actually supposed to be "feint", especially in reference to feats and actions. (But be careful in any global search and replace operation, in case I missed something like a reference to a spell "Feign Death" or something like that, where "feign" is actually the word you want.)

Also found a number of other grammatical errors and typos, but I won't go into all the details here.


Only taken a quick glance at the first pages but I can already say that I like it way better than the last Warpriest guide. It's extensive and actually discuss the potential of the Warpriest in many different areas.


You mention Bred for War race trait that it gains bonus to Initiative, while it really gives a bonus to Intimidate. And I believe that it will drop it's rating from blue to something else.

Very nice guide, this is the first time I'm really looking at the warpriest.

Silver Crusade

Bred for War gives +1 to both intimidate and CMB. As far as I know, it's the only trait in the game to boost CMB, so it's very good for any build that's going to be using combat maneuvers a lot. I actually have it on my reach tripping focused warpriest.

Of course, you have to be human of shoanti ethnicity, or consult your GM if you're not playing on Golarion.

Silver Crusade

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Raglum wrote:

I am a 9th level warpriest and my first action is ALWAYS Fervor to swift cast divine favor, move in to attack.

ALWAYS! I have only once moved up slower, and that was to fervor swift cast, cast, move up, and rail against my opponents letting them know the wrath of Gorum was upon them. It was unbelievable for RP effect.

I might have used fervor to heal 2 or 3 times in 9 levels. I don't think you can stress enough this aspect of the class.

The fervor description is modified again, and now it's solid purple, regardless of self healing. I think this is a strong enough endorsement myself.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Okay, got done reading through the guide.

Since Paizo people keep recommending Warpriest as "Paladin of Any Alignment", and have the Champion of the Faith archetype for this, I suppose another Role to add is Paladin/Antipaladin Substitute, even if it isn't actually very good for this.

Looks like Sacred Fist actually needs an Unchained version, because right now it still has the lousy Classic Monk Weapon Proficiency list. Unfortunately, nothing you can do about that except maybe add a note to that effect in the sub-section for this archetype.

In a lot of places in the guide, you mention "feign" -- I think that this is actually supposed to be "feint", especially in reference to feats and actions. (But be careful in any global search and replace operation, in case I missed something like a reference to a spell "Feign Death" or something like that, where "feign" is actually the word you want.)

Also found a number of other grammatical errors and typos, but I won't go into all the details here.

If I can find the space, I'll try to include it, but as of now it's less important than the other roles I have laid out, and the formatting for the roles section of my guide is look REALLY good now, so I'm loathe to make any changes there.

Sacred fist is pretty meh now, but it has its uses, so it's a shaky green. Still nice for high damage bad touch, but not for much else.

Yeah, that's a mistake I make a lot, it's been changed.

Typos I can deal with generally, although if you want to help with this, you can do 2 of the following things:

1: Make a document of where all typos and grammatical errors are and send them to me once the guide is effectively finished.

2: Donate to the guide so I can hire an editor. Note: I will almost certainly not hire an editor for this guide, and will probably spend the money on candy.

Rub-Eta wrote:
Only taken a quick glance at the first pages but I can already say that I like it way better than the last Warpriest guide. It's extensive and actually discuss the potential of the Warpriest in many different areas.

Thanks, I've taken a lot of time to make sure that every possible option is explored since you're basically a better fighter here, which means looking through just about every combat style in the game, including things like vital strike and cleave which are normally suboptimal for full BAB types. It's been pretty difficult, but I think I've done a pretty good job of it myself.

Fromper wrote:

Bred for War gives +1 to both intimidate and CMB. As far as I know, it's the only trait in the game to boost CMB, so it's very good for any build that's going to be using combat maneuvers a lot. I actually have it on my reach tripping focused warpriest.

Of course, you have to be human of shoanti ethnicity, or consult your GM if you're not playing on Golarion.

I still think it's blue, although technically heirloom weapon gives a +2 CMB to one combat maneuver, so that's actually pretty strong too, just not as strong as it used to be.

0 and 1st level spells are up, going to try to work on some more spells today.

Once I'm finished with spells, I'll be taking submissions for sample builds that you'd like to include in the guide. It'll probably work like my kineticist guide, where it's a feat breakdown with commentary every 5 levels or so.

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