GMs - What do you choose not to throw at players?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Wait, hold on a moment here...

** spoiler omitted **

They actually don't throw it all away.

Slavers:

A4: In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords
Page 22
"In addition, all of the equipment taken from the characters
when they were captured is stored below in the tiny hold. It was
to be sent to the coast to be identified, and eventually sold. The
equipment is stored securely among other trade goods (these
goods are worth a total of 350 gp)."

This same text appears on page 122 of the "Scourge of the Slave Lords" anthology.

The more recent "Against the Slave Lords" hardback has slightly different text, on page 150:
"In addition, all of the equipment taken from the characters when
they were captured is stored below in the tiny hold. It was to be
sent to the coast to be identified, and eventually sold. The equipment
is stored securely among other trade goods (these goods are
worth a total of 350 gp).

"NOTE: If the players are using the characters provided with the
module, the stored equipment will include the following magical
possessions (some of which, such as magic arrows, may have been
lost):
Elwita’s shield +1 and war hammer +2
“Ogre’s” battle axe +1, splint mail +2, and 5 arrows +1
Freda’s 4 arrows +2, chain mail +3, and bastard sword +1
Karraway’s sling of seeking
Blodgett’s +1 sword of speed, ring of protection +1, and boots of elvenkind
Delgath’s bracers of AC 6 and book of spells
Phanstern’s cloak of protection +2 and book of spells
Eljayess’ spear +1 and book of spells
Kayen Telva’s javelin of piercing

"Their other normal possessions are also stored here. If the above
characters are not being used, the listed equipment will NOT be
there! Instead, the equipment the characters were carrying when
they were captured will be there in its place."

1E had a lot of crazy, unfun and unfair tropes, but they showed a reluctance to remove the adventurers' gear without returning it. Even characters teleported naked through the Tomb of Horrors could find their gear at the end of the session if Acererak was slain.

More on topic:
Death effects. I've reworked the rules of the game I run to remove death effects. Nothing will kill you outright, though it is possible to take an enemy (hero or villain) to varying degrees of negative hit points.


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I can now add Basilisks to this list.

Seriously, I unwisely decided to try *not* heeding this thread and almost TPKed the party.

Two starved CR5 Basilisks (20 starvation damage) locked in a room should be what? CR6 to CR7? Versus an over-WBL APL6 party with two fullcasters and a high save unmonk, that should be a speed bump, right?

Literally as soon as the door was opened half of the PCs were stoned.

By the end of the first round the only friendlies still up were the Inquisitor and the two animal companions.

Despite it only taking 1 arrow and three greatsword swings for the inquisitor to beat this "speed bump", the entire party was one bad roll away from a TPK. IIRC, the only player who got to do *anything* was the inquisitor. Everyone else failed a save before their turn came up.

Blech. Lesson learned.

Liberty's Edge

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Chaderick the Penguin wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Wait, hold on a moment here...

** spoiler omitted **

They actually don't throw it all away.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ah. See, that makes perfect sense, and works as a legitimate adventure hook because it gives the PCs a very real opportunity to recover their gear. Which also means it would still work fine in Pathfinder (at least in regards to stolen gear). Characters dealing without their gear for a short period of time is a perfectly reasonable hardship (and can potentially make the situation desperate in a fun way). It's losing all their gear permanently that's crippling.

Having them captured offscreen is still poor form IMO, but that's not system dependent.


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I'm really old school with some new school sensibilities. I don't avoid anything really, and Im upfront with my players about it. I do use certain abilities sparingly though. Mind control, save or suck, things like that. Monster knowledge really is important, so I always encourage players to put ranks and knowledge and be prepared. It's less golf bag syndrome and more.... more like playing Geralt in The Witcher.

The only thing I actively avoid is no-win situations. I don't force my players into doing adventures they don't like. Players always have options, even if it is diplomacy or running away.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I really like how 5E handles petrification.

Usually, if you fail the first save, you are paralyzed or restrained for 1 round while the petrification is starting, so you get a 2nd save to avoid being totally petrified in round 2.

Then, if you are petrified, it's usually not permanent. It might last until the next dawn, or you might get a save a day for 3 days before it becomes permanent. Sometimes, you just need to be painted with the blood of the slain beasty. Hopefully your allies figure it out, or have a really sick sense of artistic expression.

Also, the advantage/disadvantage system works really well with "averting your eyes" if you're not totally surprised by Big Ugly.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm a little surprised at all this disinterest in save-or-die and especially the heavier status effects (dominate, stun, etc). While I certainly avoid "spamming" such things on PCs, for example using multiple petrifying monsters in a single fight to force PCs to make multiple saves per turn until they inevitably fail, I certainly don't mind throwing in the occasional one.

That being said, I houserule like a fiend. A save every round against petrify or paralysis, death spells that drop you to negatives, or sunder effects that reduce a magic item's bonus by 2 until repaired. I find these sorts of effects both flavorful and threatening, so I don't want to avoid them. At the same time, though, the story is ultimately about the PCs winning, not dying in a hole somewhere.

For save-or-die, I generally limit it to foes who are both dramatically significant and thematically relevant. Bob the Bandit Bard shouldn't have a Wand of Roll Nine Or Reroll Your Character to use every round, but a super lich is going to have his undead minions summoned ahead of time and have a couple of nasty death effects ready to go.

I'm a big fan of Sunder and item destruction. I've never particularly liked the way magic weapons work, with people casually discarding the +3 sword that carried them through a half-dozen dungeons and a nail-biting dragon fight in favor of a new one the wizard claims is better.

The golf bag problem is something that doesn't bother me too much, provided there are some limits. Spellcasters are already so much more versatile than mundanes that I don't like discouraging a fighter from carrying a few backups or tactical alternatives.


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Coming from 1E, I have no qualms about save-or-die, domination, petrification or item destruction. With 3E and later editions almost all those effects are gone and the game has become much tamer.
(Don't ask me how 1E worked, it just did :) )

The only things I am careful about are coming from two 3E books (EHL and Draconomicon) and Mythic Adventures.

The Exchange

Rosita the Riveter wrote:

I think most GMs have certain options given in the Pathfinder books they just don't like to have players go up against. Personally, I don't use save or die effects as GM. I outright ban Raise Dead, Resurrection, Reincarnate, and anything of an equivalent effect under the metaphysical rules of the setting (Which state that dragging a soul back from beyond the veil of death will get you a badly damaged husk at best). Since you can't get back a lost character, I don't throw around things guaranteed to kill a PC on a failed save. I very rarely use traps, because I don't like them. I don't like giant spiders, so I don't use those. Don't think I've ever used a plant creature that wasn't a treant. I've never used a mimick or doppelganger.

What's in the rulebooks that you guys just choose not to have players encounter?

Wow, tough question. The ever famed Tarrasque, Cthulhu (not an aspect, the), some of the children of Lamashtu. Other then that, everything is game to use.


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Welp, I finally found one. The Zygomind.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Beholders...

Because pathfinder does not have any...


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Ghouls at low levels. The triple whammy of disease and paralysis combined with 3 attacks a round is too nasty, especially against a group that might have no way to counter or heal either effect due to level.

Edit: Wow talk about necroposting...


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You know what I don't throw at them?

  • Dice whose results I've already decided will be meaningless.
  • Supposedly ruthless enemies who suddenly start pulling their punches when the party starts to lose.
  • Intelligent enemies who suddenly turn stupid when the party starts to lose.
  • Dumb enemies who act super-intelligent without being directed.
  • Railroad scenarios.
  • NPCs built using rules unavailable to PCs.
  • (etc.)

    That said, I have no problem with SOD, SOL, APL +6 encounters. It's all fair game. I use hero points and I use foreshadowing for the "too-tough" encounters, but I also roll dice in the open and let them fall where they may. If someone dies an epic, cinematic death, good for them. If someone dies from a throwaway random encounter, they stop crying, roll a new character, and take better precautions next time.


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    I don't use any negative status effects on PCs, as I've found the players don't like that. Where possible, I have each enemy attack a separate PC so as not to gang up on any one PC.

    I think the overall idea is to make the players feel like their character's are in a little bit of danger without actually hurting their character's in any significant way. They are the heroes of the story, after all.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Spiders. One of my players is an arachnophobe.


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    The only thing I'm hesitant to use - as in I generally stop and think about it before doing it anyway - is swarms against low-level parties. Swarms nudge up against my "Do they have zero chance of success?" detector. Otherwise, everything's fair game.


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    Vanykrye wrote:
    The only thing I'm hesitant to use - as in I generally stop and think about it before doing it anyway - is swarms against low-level parties. Swarms nudge up against my "Do they have zero chance of success?" detector.

    There was a time when a 10-ft. pole, a sackful of iron spikes, torches, rope, a tinderbox, and alchemist's fire ("flaming oil") where considered obligatory adventuring gear alongside weapons, armor, and spell components. Swarms just reinforce that!


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    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Swarms just reinforce that!

    My GM _loves_ swarms. We all fear the day he finds a fireproof one to throw at us.


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    Speaking of fireproof swarms, hellwasp swarms are one of the few things on my 'nope' list.


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    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Vanykrye wrote:
    The only thing I'm hesitant to use - as in I generally stop and think about it before doing it anyway - is swarms against low-level parties. Swarms nudge up against my "Do they have zero chance of success?" detector.
    There was a time when a 10-ft. pole, a sackful of iron spikes, torches, rope, a tinderbox, and alchemist's fire ("flaming oil") where considered obligatory adventuring gear alongside weapons, armor, and spell components. Swarms just reinforce that!

    I completely agree with you. I used to play with a guy who also packed about 10lbs of beeswax to use as a kind of all-purpose glue, even if only temporary.

    The last time I threw a swarm at my group they all got deer-in-the-headlights looks and started panicking. That's when I stopped the game and found out that between the 5 characters there was one (1) alchemist's fire and one (1) burning hands among them. I made them play it out anyway, and they ended up in a full retreat back to town, two of them being carried.

    Sovereign Court

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    I don't like to throw darkness spells and clouds. Not because they are difficult for the players. It just adds an hour to every encounter.


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    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    There was a time when a 10-ft. pole, a sackful of iron spikes, torches, rope, a tinderbox, and alchemist's fire ("flaming oil") where considered obligatory adventuring gear alongside weapons, armor, and spell components. Swarms just reinforce that!

    They still are.

    The real kicker is that "adventures" disappeared.
    Rarely you actually meet at the tavern, pack your rugs full of gear and then descent into the cave. Now there is always some big event that you hastily respond to instead.

    Anecdotal post over.

    Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

    Carebear GM wrote:

    I don't use any negative status effects on PCs, as I've found the players don't like that. Where possible, I have each enemy attack a separate PC so as not to gang up on any one PC.

    I think the overall idea is to make the players feel like their character's are in a little bit of danger without actually hurting their character's in any significant way. They are the heroes of the story, after all.

    Yeah I don't like to let PCs die from something as boring as hit point loss, either.

    Spoiler:
    lolno


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    Death Squads of sceaduinar >2.

    Nasty, Nasty things when played to their strengths.

    Swarms that are immune to weapon damage, as it is not fun to say "Well Bob and Jim, please wait half an hour while other people handle this." Also with things like the Wasp Swarm or even worse the Hellwasp swarm alchemist's fire is a bad joke. I would like to move away from "You must have this much casting to play today. No Bob, Jim you cannot play your fighter/rogue/monk!"

    Finally Rust monsters/Disenchanters. Destroying loot with one or two hits is a good way to produce a TPK. Also I have never seen a table that was not incredibly disheartened when one of this even showed up.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    I want to run an ant swarm against PCs some time. I like how they cling to folk and cause damage even after they exit the swarm.

    Unfortunately, the first time I ran an ant swarm, the new sorcerer had just got fireball and one-shot the whole swarm. Oh, well. He was happy and got to shine.

    Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players? I'm a big fan of troops of incorporeal undead, personally. Also under-CR'd ghosts with the young template and corrupting gaze.


    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players? I'm a big fan of troops of incorporeal undead, personally. Also under-CR'd ghosts with the young template and corrupting gaze.

    Very high CR encounters, very low CR encounters and level appropriate encounters. All in too high a number for the party to do them all. They quickly learn to scout and explore before picking their encounters.


    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players? I'm a big fan of troops of incorporeal undead, personally. Also under-CR'd ghosts with the young template and corrupting gaze.

    Shocker Lizards. Once per campaign. There is basically nothing else that amuses me quite as much as shocker lizards.


    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players?

    This sounds like a great spin-off thread!


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    Tacticslion wrote:
    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players?
    This sounds like a great spin-off thread!

    So, are you gonna start it, or will I?


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    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players?

    I like enemies that can swallow PCs whole, drag them underwater, engulf them, that kind of thing. Puts a PC in a bad position, but doesn't take them out of the battle entirely.


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    Saldiven wrote:
    Tacticslion wrote:
    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players?
    This sounds like a great spin-off thread!
    So, are you gonna start it, or will I?

    Done!

    Answer what you throw at them there!

    (I'm copying everyone's answers so far into that thread.)


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    Tacticslion wrote:
    Charlie Bell wrote:
    What about nasty things you do choose to throw at your players?
    This sounds like a great spin-off thread!

    3 parties have now been tpked by shocker lizards in my campaigns. They are presented with a clearing full of them, no one rolls knowledge, someone messes with them

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