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In a couple threads in the Rules forum there is a question about being able to take Magical Tails if you have Racial Heritage: Kitsune.
The Prerequisite is Kitsune, no other requirements.
Full Feat:
You grow an extra tail that represents your growing
magical powers.
Prerequisite: Kitsune.
Benefit: You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable
twice per day, from the following list, in order: disguise self,
charm person, misdirection, invisibility, suggestion, displacement,
confusion, dominate person. For example, the first time you
select this feat, you gain disguise self 2/day; the second time
you select this feat, you gain charm person 2/day. Your caster
level for these spells is equal to your Hit Dice. The DCs for
these abilities are Charisma-based.
Special: You may select this feat up to eight times.
Each time you take it, you gain an additional ability as
described above.
There are two questions.
1. Do you grow a Tail?
2. Do you gain the SLAs?
Some people are arguing because you don't have a Kitsune's magic trait you don't gain the SLAs
Some people are arguing because you don't have a tail you can't grow an extra.
To me, this is clear cut, you grow a tail and you gain an SLA each time you take the feat, up to 8 times.
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You can't do it for a reason completely unrelated to the rules questions at hand.
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
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Unfortunately, that is not what it means. John Compton ruled that you cannot use Racial Heritage to bypass the ARG restriction.
Jiggy, this is also the case for the Racial Heritage feat, which does not override the Additional Resources text that shows up under the Advanced Race Guide header.
The Racial Hertiage feat needs a big asterisk with "terms and conditions may apply" on it in the Additional Resources.
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Rigby, the Racial Heritage feat means ARE effectively that race for that purpose, so no, that AR line does not stop it.
In PFS play, yes the feat Racial Heritage would be unable to grant magical tails access to a human. Check the ARG entry on the additional resources list. ONLY the specific race has access to the alternate racial traits, racial feats, and racial heritages for that race. As I understand it there's racial feats from other books not under that restriction, but all the stuff in ARG is.
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Honestly, I'd really don't want that restriction removed. There's a wide number of powerful options in the ARG and part of what keeps them balanced is that you can't get them all on one character. Likewise, racial heritage with material from the ARG is also ground zero of table variation and rules debates.If an action were to be taken, I would say to ban it. However, I don't want it banned (as there are other books presenting race-specific information) and it seems unfair to not allow those because the ARG can become messy.
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Ok, that ruling is officially (IMO) the dumbest ruling John Compton has EVER had, and I usually respect his rulings on things.
It is also NOT in the FAQ and impossible to find if you don't already know about it.
On another note, technically he is not listed as PFS Leadership which would technically make his posts irrelevant for PFS questions. Not saying that is really true, just a way to interpret it.
If this is truly the case in PFS it needs an FAQ.
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Ok, that ruling is officially (IMO) the dumbest ruling John Compton has EVER had, and I usually respect his rulings on things.
It is also NOT in the FAQ and impossible to find if you don't already know about it.
On another note, technically he is not listed as PFS Leadership which would technically make his posts irrelevant for PFS questions. Not saying that is really true, just a way to interpret it.
If this is truly the case in PFS it needs an FAQ.
He was leadership when he said that.
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maybe the ruling could be relaxed slightly, making Racial Heritage a bit more viable without opening the floodgates? maybe the ruling could change from "Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed)." to a note in the APG section (and anywhere else the feat has been printed) that says "characters may only take Racial Heritage once"? that way they get all the ARG options of one additional race, but because it's only one it doesn't open the floodgates as much as doing away with the ruling completely would.
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Oh, I think you're right. I can't find an official list right now of campaign leadership, either current or previous. John Compton and Tonya, are currently considered PFS campaign leadership. Former PFS leadership includes (but I may be forgetting someone) Mark Moreland, Michael Brock, and Joshua Frost. There should be an easier way to reference campaign leadership.
Edit: Linda Zayas-Palmer is also a PFS developer, though she mostly posts clarifications in the GM discussion threads - I haven't seen her make a broad PFS post.
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Ok, that ruling is officially (IMO) the dumbest ruling John Compton has EVER had, and I usually respect his rulings on things.
It is also NOT in the FAQ and impossible to find if you don't already know about it.
I wasn't aware that "clearly stated in the Additional Resources document" makes something impossible to find.
In fact, if you're planning on using something that isn't in the CRB, you really need to check the Additional Resources doc to begin with. Not everything from every book is allowed after all. And the option you're eyeing may not be PFS legal. But that particular ruling does stop issues of ambiguity such as the one this thread demands a ruling on. namely because there IS a PFS ruling on it already.
But that wont stop the 50 page long debates on the issue for non-pfs play.
EDIT: Notice that I'm not disagreeing that the ruling is dumb. I'm just disagreeing about it being impossible to find.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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On his page it only lists:
Developer. Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Dedicated Voter, 7 Season Star Voter, 8 Season Star Voter. Pathfinder Tales Subscriber. 5 Star Pathfinder Society GM.
I have bolded the bit that matters.
You may not simply ignore rules clarifications made by the campaign leadership, including the campaign coordinator and campaign developer, at http://paizo. com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderSociety .
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Ok, that ruling is officially (IMO) the dumbest ruling John Compton has EVER had, and I usually respect his rulings on things.
It is also NOT in the FAQ and impossible to find if you don't already know about it.
On another note, technically he is not listed as PFS Leadership which would technically make his posts irrelevant for PFS questions. Not saying that is really true, just a way to interpret it.
If this is truly the case in PFS it needs an FAQ.
well its pretty common sense....
and its not hard to use the search function in the forum.. and find dozens of other similar cheesy threads...
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I've honestly always been confused how people don't inherently read the AR line that way.
I always thought of it as--
Why would a general rule (this stuff already has the racial restriction) be repeated in the AR? It must mean something extra, and the only logical extra is that you need to truly, really, honestly, actually be that race, not just have something that says you pretty much are.
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Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.I wouldn't say "clearly spelled out" or "pretty common sense".
A: You must be race X to qualify feat Y.
B: Feat R allows you to count as race X.
A + B: If you have Feat R, you qualify for feat Y.It's a normal, logical reading of the rules to assume that Racial Heritage is an exception to the general rule listed on a page that normally just lists what parts of what books are legal, just like the Cleave feat is an exception to the general rule that you can only attack one target with a standard-action attack or having "You can make Aasimar characters" listed on a Chronicle Sheet is an exception to the general rule that you can't have an Aasimar character.
The Developer clarification is unfortunate, and it would probably be best if the dead feat were simply banned specifically, since it doesn't function in PFS.
The difference is that in general play Racial heritage can overwrite the requirement to be X race for certain things. Fine, great, but this can create issues like "do you grow tails and/or get the SLA from Magical Tails if you're a human fighter with racial heritage: kitsune?" Nothing then prevents you from taking the feat, the issue is can you benefit from the feat.
The Additional Resources doc however is PFS specific rulings on what is allowed from each book. Normally it's up to the GM to allow or disallow word casting from Ultimate Magic in their campaign. PFS's rules says "no, you can't make a wordcaster, period." Normally it's up to the GM to allow or disallow racial feats, racial archtypes, or alternate racial traits. PFS has specific house rules saying "everything in Advanced Race Guide is only legal if you actually are that race, unless that particular racial equipment says otherwise". No ifs, no ands, and certainly not buts.
Which means that ONLY someone who's actual race is kitsune can be a nine tailed scion in PFS. Similarly no human can take magical tails, because they aren't actually a kitsune. They are human.
EDIT: There are racial feats and archtypes that aren't in Advanced Race Guide. I believe you can find some in sources which don't have the restriction "only available to this race in PFS". Those feats and archtypes would be allowed by racial heritage, thus it's not a 'dead' feat in PFS. Just doesn't let you bypass the racial restrictions in Advanced Race Guide (and one other book to my knowledge).
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@Majuba: isn't that the point of Racial Heritage? getting the options of another race in addition to the ones from your base race?
Yes, but the additional resources was meant to specifically block some combos from happening. They've specifically said that this feat doesn't go around the additional resources
I've been saying for a while that the feat needs an asterix because it probably won't do what the person taking it wants it to do
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@Majuba: isn't that the point of Racial Heritage? getting the options of another race in addition to the ones from your base race?Yes, but the additional resources was meant to specifically block some combos from happening. They've specifically said that this feat doesn't go around the additional resources
I've been saying for a while that the feat needs an asterix because it probably won't do what the person taking it wants it to do
Which, again, is why when you're planning on using stuff from an additional resource, you really should check the doc. That way you know if what you want to use is allowed, or if there's specific restrictions.
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@BigNorseWolf: well, restricting it to where you can only take it only once (come to think of it, it might not even be possible to take it multiple times, since most feats that have you choose an option and allow you to take it multiple times specifically say so in the book.) eliminates any combos that require things exclusive to multiple non-human races, so maybe in addition to the "you may only take this once" limitation they could restrict only certain ARG material to it's normal race, rather than the whole book?
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Which, again, is why when you're planning on using stuff from an additional resource, you really should check the doc. That way you know if what you want to use is allowed, or if there's specific restrictions.@Majuba: isn't that the point of Racial Heritage? getting the options of another race in addition to the ones from your base race?Yes, but the additional resources was meant to specifically block some combos from happening. They've specifically said that this feat doesn't go around the additional resources
I've been saying for a while that the feat needs an asterix because it probably won't do what the person taking it wants it to do
The additional resources document is a little overwhelming as it is and the rules around the race stuff is outright headache inducing. Messing up and being stuck with a feat you need 5pp to get rid of is kind of harsh
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This is why we can't have good things.
If your PC doesn't have a tail already, you cant possibly get an extra tail...
90% of PFRPG rules and options are available for PFS.
But if you want more cheese (aka kewl powerz) on that PC build keep pushing the issue until you drive this feat into the ban list.
To be honest I wouldn't mind seeing this feat on the banned list. Not particularly because of "kewl powerz" but because it causes so many headaches trying to explain exactly what it does (and does not) do. Taking Racial Heritage out of circulation would remove so many issues.
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Same place the normal feet is. It's the same feat. But two specific books limit racial required items in it to that specific race only in PFS. Thus racial heritage can't bypass the race requirement for things in those two specific books. Stuff in other books that's racial requirement limited, racial heritage could bypass that limit.
I think stuff in ARG is limited only to the specific races because of issues like Magical Tails on a non-kitsune. It's such a gray area issue that mentioning it tends to spawn a huge furball. Pun intended. There's people like me who read it one way. Others who read it a different way. People who completely disregard the 'fluff' and claim you never grow a new tail, just get the SLA, people who take offense to the feat even existing. People who think you can't even consider taking the feat unless you already have a tail... And then you bring PFS into the issue, and an even bigger furball starts up. Again.
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Same place the normal feet is. It's the same feat. But two specific books limit racial required items in it to that specific race only in PFS. Thus racial heritage can't bypass the race requirement for things in those two specific books. Stuff in other books that's racial requirement limited, racial heritage could bypass that limit.
So where are the PFS restrictions on the feat? I can't find them. I'm not being silly here, I'm trying to honestly figure this out for a much more tame concept and want to see if it is a valid one or not.
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Same place the normal feet is. It's the same feat. But two specific books limit racial required items in it to that specific race only in PFS. Thus racial heritage can't bypass the race requirement for things in those two specific books. Stuff in other books that's racial requirement limited, racial heritage could bypass that limit.So where are the PFS restrictions on the feat? I can't find them. I'm not being silly here, I'm trying to honestly figure this out for a much more tame concept and want to see if it is a valid one or not.
The additional resources document, which has a link right on the PFS main section on the right hand side, lists any and all restrictions on allowed books for PFS.
Click the link, and you can check the entry for each book too see what parts of that book are allowed, and what restrictions there are. For example in Occult Adventures it lists all the classes and archtypes, but then calls out a couple archtypes as not being allowed. All the spells, except specific ones are allowed. And the psychic duel system isn't allowed. Which is why spells dealing with it and the archtypes which specialize in psychic duels aren't allowed.
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Which thus nicely sidesteps the HUGE gray issue that is racial heritage+magical tail. Among with many other gray issues and possible exploits.
How do you know that racial heritage+magical tail is a gray issue? Because every time it comes up it ends up being a lengthy debate which covers the same issues over and over, yet never actually resolves anything. And still the question of "will non-kitsune grow a tail and get the SLA" gets debated about with no consensus.
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This is why we can't have good things.
If your PC doesn't have a tail already, you cant possibly get an extra tail...
90% of PFRPG rules and options are available for PFS.
But if you want more cheese (aka kewl powerz) on that PC build keep pushing the issue until you drive this feat into the ban list.
I'm missing something... What does the Magical Tail feat do for a Human that it doesn't do for a Kitsune? Why is it super horribad cheez for Humans when it's a normal, valid feat for Kitsune?
Contributor
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So Racial Heritage is a waste of space for PFS play, since the only traits a human could get from it are human traits?
Not necessarily. ^_^
For example, there are a number of racial feats, traits, and other effects in books such as the Advanced Player's Guide. Racial Heritage could be used to access those.
It's only the Advanced Race Guide and Dragon Empires Primer that have the race-only restriction. Everything else is fair game.
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It's just that people see the race only restriction on ARG and Dragon Empires Primer, and get all upset that they can't have those goodies.
Then again, many of the racial feats in ARG look to be things which imply needing a racial ability without actually stating "you need this racial ability". Thus creating gray issues on if the item in question will work for other races. The one I know from Dragon Empires Primer also has the whole "gray issue" thing going on. Does fox shape (form, not sure of exact wording) require the ability to shape shift? It's implied, but not specifically stated.
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I'm missing something... What does the Magical Tail feat do for a Human that it doesn't do for a Kitsune? Why is it super horribad cheez for Humans when it's a normal, valid feat for Kitsune?
Because humans have lots of other cool options they shouldn't be able to snag Everyone's other cool options. They already have the most overpowered caster ability (trade one hit point for a spell known: thats basically 1 hp for a feat)
Its also problematic deciding what abilities from other races they can or cannot borrow: can you take magical tails without having a tail? is fox shape its own ability or an add on to change shape (which humans don't have and the feat won't give you) etc.
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Its also problematic deciding what abilities from other races they can or cannot borrow: can you take magical tails without having a tail? is fox shape its own ability or an add on to change shape (which humans don't have and the feat won't give you) etc.
Not quite the issue. Of course you CAN take the feat. The question which Paizo has never really answered to my knowledge is "can you actually gain a benefit from the feat". If you can meet the requirement of "be this race" you can take the feat. But do those implied but never stated requirements mean you don't benefit?
This would be something easy for Paizo to fix. Just adding one additional line to these gray issue feats listing if you actually need X racial trait or not. Or them FAQing it to say one way or the other. But I don't think they have. Yet.
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It's just that people see the race only restriction on ARG and Dragon Empires Primer, and get all upset that they can't have those goodies.
Then again, many of the racial feats in ARG look to be things which imply needing a racial ability without actually stating "you need this racial ability". Thus creating gray issues on if the item in question will work for other races. The one I know from Dragon Empires Primer also has the whole "gray issue" thing going on. Does fox shape (form, not sure of exact wording) require the ability to shape shift? It's implied, but not specifically stated.
I see the race-only restriction, the feat to bypass the race-only restriction, and the restriction to bypass the feat which bypasses the race-only restriction... and I wonder what the point of this exercise is. A Kitsune who can turn into a fox surely isn't getting more or less out of it than a Human who can turn into a fox, right? The only grey issue that I can see that people have is whether having a Kitsune somewhere in your lineage makes you "foxy" enough to satisfy flavor text.
Because humans have lots of other cool options they shouldn't be able to snag Everyone's other cool options. They already have the most overpowered caster ability (trade one hit point for a spell known: thats basically 1 hp for a feat)
Seems odd to restrict a feat based on being "just too cool already." But then, isn't the coolest thing about playing a fantasy game to be a little more non-human? Why would we reduce fun arbitrarily?
Its also problematic deciding what abilities from other races they can or cannot borrow: can you take magical tails without having a tail? is fox shape its own ability or an add on to change shape (which humans don't have and the feat won't give you) etc.
Presumably, a Human can take the Halfling Opportunist class from Halflings of Golarion (since it is legal and not called out as Halfling-only, no seriously only for Halflings). At 2nd level, "Her halfling racial bonus on saving throws increases to +2" without the human actually having the halfling racial bonus on saving throws.
For the Magical Tail feat, note that only the descriptive text makes mention of a tail. The effect is that "You gain a new spell-like ability." It seems similar to not allowing a Bladebound Magus to use a whip because it's not a "blade" (even though it is a "a one-handed slashing weapon").
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Which is a large part of the issue (I think) that caused ARG and Dragon Empress Primer to have stuff locked to only the actual race. The feats themselves are ambiguous about if you need a certain trait to actually benefit from them.
EDIT: And of course, the whole "description is important/description should be ignored" part of the debate with magical tails (and other feats) gets stupidly long too. To the point where some claim magical tail can only be taken if you already had a tail. Others insist that you don't grow a tail, extra or otherwise, because only the 'fluff' says you do. And so forth.
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This is actually THE question I am most well versed about in PFS.
This.
Specific.
Question.
And as answered above, No. Special rulings in PFS prevent you from taking Magical Tail unless your character is a full born Kitsune.
However, as Kalindlara pointed out, this ONLY applies to specific books.
This means, as per the ruling, that a Human with Racial Heritage (Orc) qualifies for the Deathless feat tree from Ultimate Combat despite not being full born Orc nor Half-Orc.
Also, as per a discussion I had with Mike Brock in person some years ago, Racial Heritage makes for a nice bridge for aesthetic modifications normally out of reach without venturing into the dreaded realm of "reskinning".
At least at the time, he said that there was no issue with someone taking Racial Heritage(Kitsune) so that they could have fox ears and a fox tail.
The tail and ears don't DO anything mechanically, but they provide visual cue to the character's Racial Heritage feat, much in the way a Dragon Disciple's scaly skin may.
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Not quite the issue. Of course you CAN take the feat. The question which Paizo has never really answered to my knowledge is "can you actually gain a benefit from the feat".
Its a distinction without a difference. Of course anyone using the feat wants to USE it for something. You don't need a feat to do background flavor of grandad was a kitsune (I don't know how well that fits golarion lore but it fits the mythology very well..)
If you can meet the requirement of "be this race" you can take the feat. But do those implied but never stated requirements mean you don't benefit?
They answered this with the kobold tail terror feat. Some racial feats have required abilities beyond the race. Racial heritage will not give you those.
This would be something easy for Paizo to fix. Just adding one additional line to these gray issue feats listing if you actually need X racial trait or not. Or them FAQing it to say one way or the other. But I don't think they have. Yet.
And then going forward add it to every racial feat they ever make...all for compatability with one feat. Banning it from pfs and letting home game dm's decide would be way easier.