Shillelagh & Monk of the Empty Hand


Rules Questions


While doing a bit of theory crafting with a friend we ran into an interesting question. When a monk of the empty hand picks up a q-staff, he uses it as a non-magical improvised q-staff.

So what happens when a spell/sla/su is cast on the weapon that a Monk of the Empty Hand is using as an improvised weapon?

What we know:

1. We know that improvised weapons can't be enchanted as a weapon, only as tools.
2. We know that magic weapons don't get their magic bonuses when used as improvised weapons.

What we are questioning is if you can cast spells on improvised weapons to improve their combat effectiveness. The most obvious one is Shillelagh since it increases the effective size of a weapon, and there are rules for different sized improvised weapons. There are also rage powers, bloodlines, and others.

Thoughts?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quote:
Target one touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff

That doesn't say Target one improvised weapon.

So it would work identical to using a +1 quarterstaff as an improvised quarterstaff. You wouldn't get the bonus.


Thank you for your opinion James and I see what you mean with a spell that calls out a specific weapon.

However, they didn't call the Improvised Weapons section "Attacking with Non-Weapons." An improvised weapon is still a weapon, just not one that was originally crafted for that purpose. So Target: 1 weapon, includes improvised weapons.

The question is whether an improvised weapon can have spells cast on them to improve their function as a weapon or if it can only be for it's crafted purpose.


To my understanding you'd be able to cast the spell, yes. I don't think the monk would technically benefit from it, because as intended the weapon isn't supposed to have magical benefits for someone using it in an improvised way in my opinion. But if he then passed it off to a friend, the spell would still be in effect and it should be fine then.

Also, without reading the archetype, I'd guess the MotEH "treats all weapons as improvised weapons", which, while it doesn't stop anyone including himself from casting a spell on it as a weapom, means it's still a regular weapon to anyone else if it ever did matter for some reason. They don't treat the weapon as improvised just because he's holding it wrong.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bladelock wrote:
An improvised weapon is still a weapon

This is the point we have different opinions.

An improvised weapon is the action of taking a non-weapon and attacking with it. It isn't about taking a non-weapon and permanently making it a new weapon to then enhance the new weapon.


James Risner wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
An improvised weapon is still a weapon

This is the point we have different opinions.

An improvised weapon is the action of taking a non-weapon and attacking with it. It isn't about taking a non-weapon and permanently making it a new weapon to then enhance the new weapon.

Fair point of disagreement.

I won't further argue intent with using the language "Improvised Weapon" rather than "Non-Weapon" because no way can devs predict what a choice of words can unleash on these boards. However as I see it, anything that can damage or hurt someone can be turned into a weapon. It's just that some things are crafted specifically to hurt people and some are not. The only non-weapons are things that can't cause damage.

Also, there is nothing that says an improvised weapon must be an impromptu use of some item. A cook who carries a pan all the time and knows how to use it, a baker and a rolling pin, an acrobat and his balancing pole, or anything that a Monk of the Empty Hand always has on him. An improvised weapon is more likely to be something that is used regularly and generally at hand when a surprise threat pops up. If that happens often, people will be "caught off guard" by how deftly the artist attacks them with his painting easel.

Improvised ONLY means not originally crafted to be a weapon.

Scarab Sages

Non-weapon isn't really a thing in pathfinder. You make an attack roll and the thing you use for the damage roll is your "weapon." Yeah, some spells classify some weapons differently, but weapons are basically how the PF game determines damage with ranged and melee attacks. That's why unarmed strike is a weapon, even on PCs without any training.

Improvised is a catch all grouping for weapons that don't have more specific rules. It's mostly for the GM so when the PC tries to use the ally's corpse as flail, the GM can look it up and easily know how much damage and what penalties are. 'Cause PCs do random stuff and it's nice to have a simple system to handle it.

Regarding crafting and magical weapon enchantments, doing so defeats the point. If designed as a weapon, it is inherently not improvised, and therefore not an improvised weapon. If your PC is hell-bent on that melee frying pan, I suggest the GM making a weapon profile and you taking an exotic weapon proficiency for it, then you can craft and enchant it normally and without additional rules complications.

As for spells, see the spell description. Most spells say what they can affect. I do think the improvised weapon qualifies as a weapon in most cases, but this is totally the GM's good judgement on a spell by spell basis.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

a chair leg can be used as an improvised weapon, or as a club, can you enchant a chair leg to be a +1 magic chair leg.

A club is just a shaped piece of wood, a stick or log of appropriate size can be a club that then can be enchanted with shillelagh, and enchanted to make it a +1 club.

Scarab Sages

Shadowlords wrote:

a chair leg can be used as an improvised weapon, or as a club, can you enchant a chair leg to be a +1 magic chair leg.

A club is just a shaped piece of wood, a stick or log of appropriate size can be a club that then can be enchanted with shillelagh, and enchanted to make it a +1 club.

Very notable that Shillelagh requires an OAK club/quarterstaff, so merely being a piece of WOOD doesn't qualify. The wood/stick/log needs to be an OAK stick/log to meet this requirement.

As for clubs vs improvised one-handed bludgeoning weapons, I'd ask the GM. It does actually have to be a club/quarterstaff to qualify for that spell. It's probably fine, but I'd be sure to ask rather than assuming.

Magic Weapon should work on your chair leg just fine.


What about a Monk of the Empty Hand? MotEH are technically using improvised clubs while using a club that has a spell on it.

If you cast Magic Weapon on a club, does a Monk of the Empty Hand get to use that bonus?


"These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell."

A monk (or anyone else) couldn't disarm a shillelagh-wielding druid, then pick up said shillelagh and use it as a 2d6 magic weapon. Nor could the party's druid helpful cast it on that oak table leg (nice catch, Murdock Mudeater) for someone else to use.


The MotEH could be using a wand, have a lvl of druid or one of hunter. Or the Hunter/Druid could have a lvl of MotEH. Targeting the weapon is not a big issue.

The question is if you cast a spell (SLA, SU, etc...) on a club (quarterstaff, etc...), and it gets used as an improvised club by a MotEH, do they get the benefit.

Scarab Sages

Bladelock wrote:

What about a Monk of the Empty Hand? MotEH are technically using improvised clubs while using a club that has a spell on it.

If you cast Magic Weapon on a club, does a Monk of the Empty Hand get to use that bonus?

As far as I read it, magic weapon should work on improvised weapons.

Shillelagh will not, as it's more specific.

It is notable that Magic Weapon specifically works on the Monk's unarmed strike. It does not work on natural attacks, or unarmed strikes of non-monks.

Now, all that said, it would be pretty easy to make a case with GM that an improvised club is an actual club, as the club has a cost of "-" and is described as more of a found weapon. Shillelagh will still require it being made of Oak.


MotEH makes any 1h weapon they use into an improvised club or quarterstaff if 2 handed. The question is, if you enchant a club or quarterstaff with a spell/sla/su, and use it as an improvised weapon because you're a MotEH, should the player be able to take advantage of the spells enhancement to the weapon?

We know that any magic that is already part of the weapon is not usable. So a flaming greatsword will just be a improvised quarterstaff in the hands of a MotEH.

Scarab Sages

Bladelock wrote:

MotEH makes any 1h weapon they use into an improvised club or quarterstaff if 2 handed. The question is, if you enchant a club or quarterstaff with a spell/sla/su, and use it as an improvised weapon because you're a MotEH, should the player be able to take advantage of the spells enhancement to the weapon?

We know that any magic that is already part of the weapon is not usable. So a flaming greatsword will just be a improvised quarterstaff in the hands of a MotEH.

Wait, so the idea is that you enhance a normal weapon, then use it as an improvised other weapon....?

No dice there. Doesn't matter how you enchant it, as it becomes something else in your hands. I don't think magic weapon applies to improperly using weapons.

You might be able to enchant an actual improvised club as a weapon, but only if it wasn't a normal weapon as per MotEH. Though that would be iffy too, as the GM could reasonably say that the "chair leg" was a normal club, not an improvised one.

Kinda like that Wrecker Oracle Curse. Items are always broken in their hands.

Scarab Sages

If you want another weapon, I'd look into a natural attack, as that should be exempt from MotEH.

That Eldritch Heritage feat might be a good route, as many of those grant natural attacks that improve with levels (like becoming magic weapons for DR purposes).


This isn't for one of my personal builds or for an NPC at my table, just a bit of curiosity after an interesting discussion.

I'm going to agree that Shillelagh probably wasn't the best example to lead with during the post. The magic made to be place specifically on a quarterstaff probably won't work when the quarterstaff is being used as an improvised weapon.

However what about spells and sla's that just call out weapon being held.

Spells like Lead Blades, (Grtr.)Magic Weapon. What about bloodline heritage feats that add additional damage to a weapon, arcane pool points, etc...

Can a MotEH enhance their improvised weapons?

Scarab Sages

Bladelock wrote:
Can a MotEH enhance their improvised weapons?

As before. If the weapon is an actual improvised weapon, then enchanting should be legal.

If the weapon is a normal weapon, and you enchant it, then deliberately use it in a completely untended way (like improvising), then no, definitely not.

As per the wording of MotEH, their "misuse" of weapons only applies to "normal" weapons. So actual improvised weapons, unarmed strikes, and natural attacks should be resolved normally.

Like if I have a sword, then enchant it to be more balanced and sharper (magic weapon), then I grab it by the blade and hit people with the hilt, no, the magical improvements don't apply.

The issue is that you're using the weapon wrong...

Scarab Sages

Bladelock wrote:

This isn't for one of my personal builds or for an NPC at my table, just a bit of curiosity after an interesting discussion.

I'm going to agree that Shillelagh probably wasn't the best example to lead with during the post. The magic made to be place specifically on a quarterstaff probably won't work when the quarterstaff is being used as an improvised weapon.

However what about spells and sla's that just call out weapon being held.

Spells like Lead Blades, (Grtr.)Magic Weapon. What about bloodline heritage feats that add additional damage to a weapon, arcane pool points, etc...

Fair questions, and they are fun to think about.

Not sure on the sorcerer bloodlines, but the Blood Rager ones apply any melee attacks, not just properly used ones. Like the Celestial bloodrager bloodline should make your improvised weapons Good-aligned. Don't think Eldritch Heritage applies to bloodragers.

Really, I think if the spell/ability is worded to effect the melee output without mentioning weapons, your definitely in the clear with MotEH.

When we go into mentioning weapons with a spell/ability effect, the issue goes back to the fact that you aren't using the weapons the way they are supposed to be used. Doesn't really matter how amazing the weapon becomes if you just can't seem to figure out that the pointy end of the sword goes into the enemy...

Scarab Sages

Though, thinking about it more, since you make actual weapons into improvised versions, you would still gain the material benefits of weapons.

A Cold Iron Morning star is an improvised Cold Iron club in your hands, but that's better than the just a club. You wouldn't benefit from the master crafting or enhancement bonuses, but it would still matter for DR that is penetrated by specific materials.

Plus the materials affect the hardness and HP of your weapons, as well as magical enhancements would, even if your PC can't utilize them in combat, the HP and hardness should remain.

The real question is if a Anarchic weapon would impart a negative level if wielded by the MotEH, since you really aren't using it properly and really don't qualify as wielding it at all. (Assuming a lawful monk....)

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