Ranged Fighter Feat & Archetype Advice Needed


Advice


I'm making a feat-based archer and the build I've got caps at 12. I need some advice on where to go after that. She specializes in using a comp longbow, but I'm deciding between if I should go with the archer archetype or stay core fighter. As a core fighter, I'd equip her with a longsword and daggers in addition to her longbow, but as a archer, I'd probably equip her with special arrows from the alchemy manual instead. Anyways, this is the build. I'm not sure what feat to pick up at 13th level and beyond, but I'm thinking either Quick Draw for the daggers, Improved Critical (Longbow), or Greater Snap Shot.

Human Fighter 13
Str 14, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 (+4 Dex Belt)

Feats:
1) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot
2) Deadly Aim
3) Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4) Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
5) Point Blank Master
6) Cluster Shots
7) Manyshot
8) Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
9) Combat Reflexes
10) Snap Shots
11) Improved Snap Shot
12) Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
13) ???

Dark Archive

Take a look at Weapon Master Fighter Archetype: you get Weapon Training bonuses earlier than other Fighter types, at the expense of Armor Training, which you really don't need with your high DEX. The bonuses to your CMD against sunder and disarm may come in handy of your DM wants to try to screw you up with AOO's (partially mitigated by Point Blank Master). Watch out for opponents who can trip you.

Start with a 12 STR and put the extra 3 build points into DEX: DEX is that important to your build. This will give you a 26 DEX after the level 4, 8 and 12 bumps.

The difference between a Fighter-based archer and any other Pathfinder archer is your attack bonus, which is based on your full BAB, your DEX, unique fighter-only feats (eg GWF) and Weapon Training: max your attack bonus and you will put Rangers and Zen Archer Monks to shame with your overall damage output.

Improved Critical is more important at level 13 than Greater Snapshot.

With Point Blank Master there is no reason to use other weapons: use your bow all the time.

Check out the feats Disruptive and Spellbreaker if you want to be able to get up close and personal with spellcasters - and light them up.


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The introduction of Advanced Weapon Training has made the Archer archetype MUCH worse than the base Fighter, because Archer loses Weapon Training. So just stick to the base Fighter or the Weapon Master archetype.

Liberty's Edge

GeneMemeScene wrote:
The introduction of Advanced Weapon Training has made the Archer archetype MUCH worse than the base Fighter, because Archer loses Weapon Training. So just stick to the base Fighter or the Weapon Master archetype.

Yep. This. You might even want to swap out some Feats for Advanced Weapon Training (which is, indeed, allowed). There are several really good options.


I'd like to recommend you go Lore Warden. It has a lot of nice utility that ranged classes can use without a hitch.

Here's a build, using Weapon Master's Handbook goodies..


Base fighter in this case. Archtypes may seem really cool but often times strip a base class of their abilities and don't give enough in return. The only fighter archtype I have found that doesn't is The Tower Shield Specialist. Stick with a Base class.


Was there ever a ruling on Catch Off Guard when you have an arrow in your hand?

Catch off Guard rules:
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

Does that mean that in between each round an archer could have an arrow in her hand so that if a foe were to run up to her and think "hah, they've only got a ranged weapon, I can combat maneuver without provoking" then the archer can actually take the provoke with the arrow in their hand which they not only don't have -4 but is against their flat-footed AC?

I don't know, is there any reason you couldn't use this? Is there anything I am missing.

It would only be 1d4+STR but it would be against flat footed and you can take Catch Off Guard long before Snapshot. Considering damage in a CM provoked attack penalizes their CM roll this could make all the difference to stop yourself being tripped, or worse... your bow being sundered. Which is not hard.

When you get to level 5, pester your Wizard for Rune Of Durability, asap. Also maybe a locked gauntlet for your left hand holding the bow.


I thought I mentioned it, but I'm starting at lvl 13. I like the build the way it is right now, but I didn't know if going Archer would be a better idea to gain a control advantage, or if staying with my current build would be the better option.

Overall, I've got a 10ft threatened area, 7-8 AoOs per round, up to five attacks with six arrows at 1d8+18 with feats and boots accounted for. I've maxed my UMD skill so that I can utilize situational wands, and a 33 AC as a core fighter.

AC 33 = 10 + 11 Armor + 7 Dex + 2 Nat + 3 Deflect.
(+5 Mithral Chainmail, Amulet of Nat Armor +2, Ring of Protection +3)


Alchemist at this point wouldn't hurt. They have a discovery for using arrows for their bombs which improve the range of them and with other discoveries you can do some interesting things. In other words paly Hawkeye or Green Arrow.


So instead of picking up more fighter levels, I go into Alchemist.


Yep. I am a fan of multi classing but you and your GM may not like this idea. realize your BAB will suffer at higher levels being a split class but it gives you more versatility. Purchase the Adaptive feature on your magic bow and then using Mutagen you can pump your strength up by four points for heavy combat or Dex if you have problems hitting. The natural armor boost doesn't hurt.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Yep. I am a fan of multi classing but you and your GM may not like this idea. realize your BAB will suffer at higher levels being a split class but it gives you more versatility. Purchase the Adaptive feature on your magic bow and then using Mutagen you can pump your strength up by four points for heavy combat or Dex if you have problems hitting. The natural armor boost doesn't hurt.

But it conflicts with my amulet. If anything I could dip two levels into Grenadier Alchemist, pump up craft alchemy and utilize the alchemical weapon ability. Though the drawbacks outweigh the benefits, as I can't do it as a free action until 15th level alchemist, but that won't happen because we wouldn't reach epic levels until then.


Archtypes don't thrill me much finding the base class in most cases better in terms of power and abilities. The stat boost is the nice part of a Mutagen. The Bomb arrow discovery is nice and part of the charm of taking it but I realized you have to be like sixth level or something to take it. Sorry. Alchemist just went down in choice. However Warpriest is another. Weapon Focus if you don't have it a few combat feats and at fourth level channel. A standard cleric for the domains and a few spells. You have a Ring so Shield of Faith won't help Deflection bonus. Barbarian for the boost to str when raging.


I'm not a big fan of multi-classing though. I've tried it and I feel weaker for it. Heck, I barely go for prestige classes unless they're legit upgrades for the build I'm going for.


With the archer, your concern isn't really putting out damage anymore, esp with full BAB and feat support. What you might want is better saves, and maybe a bit of extra skills.


Multiclassing has it's advantages and in this case couldn't hurt. At your level fighter you probably have every feat you really need to be an archer. Your Bab will go up as a fighter but you are pretty much maxed out in the classes actual usefulness to you.
Two ideas. Rogue for a couple of levels so depending on situations you get that extra damage from Sneak. Evasion is a nice perk. The extra skills certainly won't hurt at all 8+Int compared to 2+Int. The second idea is to take Alchemist and rearrange you magic items. Bracers of Falcon's Aim is one magic item I grab as soon as I can if I'm an archery guy. Maybe look at the Rage Chemist as a possibility. Replacing the ring of protection is nice but at your level and the fact your fighting style is to stand as far away from melee as possible this may not be a bad trade. The mutagen lasts ten minutes a level. You take until 20th that makes it about an hour. That is usually at least four or five rooms in a dungeon. The mutagens are not a once a day item either just ten minutes at a lab, even a portable one works. Rage Chemist is for the stat bump of str more then anything +6. That's why I recommend Adaptive to your Bow. It allows you to use whatever str at full value. It's also cheap a thousand gold.

Dark Archive

Multiclassing at this level takes away your strengths: your attack and your BAB. Please don't throw that away. Pickup magic items to shore up your weak Will save (Cap of the Free Thinker, maxing out your Cloak of Resistance, etc), and/or spend a feat or two on Improved/Iron Will - but don't dilute your attack by multiclassing.

Ignore REF saves and focus on Will: you will have enough HP that low REF won't hurt you.

Gloves of Dueling and a +3 bow are your friends: your attack bonus will be high enough (BAB, DEX, Weapon Focuses, Weapon Training) that you will be hitting with your tertiary attacks.

You may want to consider re-arranging your starting stats to shore up your weakness (Will Saves) and keep your DEX high:

STR: 12
DEC: 19
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 7

This still gets you to 26 DEX at level 13 (w/ your +4 belt), giving up 13 HP (shouldn't hurt too bad since you are a ranged combatant) and dumps CHA (which you won't use anyway) to get you +2 to Will saves.

Dark Archive

Attack stats at level 13 with a +4 DEX belt, Gloves of Dueling and a +3 bow - and the build suggested above (straight vanilla fighter):

Attack: +13BAB+8DEX+3Magic+2WeaponFocus+5WeaponTraining-2RapidShot: +29/+29/+24/+19 for 1d8+13 (19-20)x3

Damage: +1STR+4WeaponSpecialization+5WeaponTraining+3Magic= +13

With Deadly Aim (-4 for +8 damage):

+25/+25/+20/+15 for 1d8+21 (19-20)x3

Unbuffed.

With Armor Training you could wear a +3 Mithral Breastplate using your full DEX, for a base AC (before rings, amulets, etc) of 27 - and no reduction in movement.


I disagree Argus. After tenth level a fighter actually starts to level off in power while other classes catch up. A Wizard for example doesn't begin to compete with a fighter until fifth his first third level spell. He just gets more and more powerful afterwards. Most fighters depending on their goals and builds have almost everything they want or need or soon will have. In her case she is leveling off and a few levels in another class would actually improve her. Yes her BAB will continue to rise as a fighter. But she is asking how to improve and diversify her character. I've suggested a few classes that don't hurt especially since in the case of the Rogue have been used in fighter combinations ever since first ed. Even in Pathfinder they still work. The Alchemist was a suggestion that may not work well but offers ideas as did the Occultist. Most prestige Classes won't benefit her at all. The Arcane Archer actually has taken a huge step down from earlier editions which is why I didn't suggest it.
Most of my gaming group at some point mutliclasses their fighters. Usually only a level or two but they all agree while straight fighters are tough a little diversity never hurts. Have seen work is a Paladin/fighter combo. Other cases depending on their goals something Arcane or Divine for a few extra abilities. Cleric offering self healing and a few buff spells and abilities.
I'm not saying take eighty other classes just one looking at what it offers her character in the long run.

Dark Archive

You are reading a lot into the OP's request that isn't there. They aren't asking if they should multiclass, or how to make the character more versatile out of compbat. They are asking whether there are good archetype options, or if they should stay core fighter - and how to make the character a better combatant.

Even so, let's take a look at the last 2 levels of the build so far, levels 12 and 13. How does fighter stack up versus a multiclass dip? Those two levels of (vanilla) fighter yield:

+2 BAB
+1 to all saves
+1 to weapon attacks and damage (Weapon Training 3)
A bonus feat - and access to a fighter-only feat that grants +2 to weapon damage.
That's a net of +3 attack and +3 damage.

You are going to compare that to what? A 2 level dip into a casting class that will net a gain of 1 BAB, probably a +3 to WILL, and access to first level spells? The ability to use wands? Go monk for a boost to all saves, and the ability to do mediocre unarmed damage (when you could instead use your bow instead, w/o provoking)?

Alchemist? +3 to your two best saves: Ref and Fort. The ability to cast 1st level spells on yourself, access to bombs that do much less damage than your arrows, and a mutagen that boosts your attack by 2, while penalizing your worst save (Will by an equal amount). Not really sure why you would think that would be helpful.


If I want to multi-class I'll ask my GM about allowing Unchained Gestalts, which is weaker than traditional gestalts. The fact of the matter is that I'm looking at the Archer archetype for the Trick Shot extraordinary ability. Though it looks like I could compensate for that with crafting special arrows. Example; Alchemy Manual - Trip Arrow.


I would 100% avoid the Archer fighter archetype. If you really want an archetype look at the weapon master or if you would like some utility the mutation warrior archetypes.

Mutation warrior can get you winged flight and the ability to buff either your strength or your dexterity.

Anything that trades out weapon training is awful after the introduction of the weapon master's handbook.

Personally, I also don't think Combat Reflexes/Snap Shot/Improved Snapshot is all that great. Usually my archers tend to try to stay away from the enemy, letting them get within 10ft of you is already a mistake.

Take a look at some of the new style feats in weapon master's handbook. Overwatch style is pretty awesome in my opinion, as are some of the ranged weapon mastery feats.

Dark Archive

BlingerBunny the Weapon Master's Handbook has some great options for tripping, disarming and various other "utility" kinds of ranged trick shots that might meet your needs. You can find online resources by searching for the feat.

Marksman’s Utility

Finesse Shot

Liberating Shot

If your GM is open to using the optional Called SHot rules, you may want to look at Ace Disarm and Ace Trip, too.

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