So my clerics keep dying...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So I'm about to play my 7th cleric in the campaign my friend has been running for 3ish years (6 died, one retired) and I'm hoping to maybe not die again this time. 2 were due to bad positioning on my part, 2 were mailed by a tiger and 2 I feel were kinda targeted (reach clerics dying in ways hero points can't save) but it's also a tough dungeon.

So I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should play something else. Party is a battle Oracle, a rogue, and a bard. We might be getting a wizard soon. Considered paladin but limited in crafting arms and Armor. Considered warpriest, but they aren't as good in terms of healing. I'm kinda stumped. Suggestions?


I'm playing a 7th level cleric in one of the RARE games in which I get to be an actual player (I'm the GM 95% of the time). My strategy is to hang back, use Selective Channel to heal my comrades, and fight only if absolutely necessary. I provide buff spells to my comrades as well as myself to ward off damage and to increase my chances of survival. We've had combats where half the party was down to 0 or below and I had taken no damage simply by not engaging the enemy directly. This may not work for everyone, but it seems to be a strategy that works for me.


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Healing is a lose some game. Monsters will almost always out damage any healing you can do. Your healing should be made to avoid someone dying.

Now lets consider this example. If you have a two fighters chugging at a bad guy he monster will drop twice as fast. Once that creature drops its damage it doles out is zero. Now if you heal your 1d8+5 each round as the monster is doing 30+ damage a round for twice as long where do you come out ahead? With how fats combat can be, and the limited resources of healing I could suggest the firts example.

I would suggest making something very difficult to kill with a side of healing. War priests and paladins are great tanks that can heal if pressed. So if a buddy drops and needs to be stabilized you can do it and keep them from dying.


You have two choices. One let the Bard and Battle Oracle who both should have healing spells on their spell list take the slack. Between the three of you no one should be dropping like you are unless you are getting crited all the time. Redesign the cleric taking a level or two of fighter. That gives you access to heavy armor, better weapons and shield use all three. This will improve your chances at survival. The Oracle unless evil should have all cure spells on his spell list he definitely should take the slack of healing.
Warpriest is another option although you do lose the channel until fourth which can hurt. With Warpriest you have the advantage of getting fighter like abilities while stay a Divine caster.
I'm curious why such an odd combination. I like Oracles but they are better healers then clerics the one playing him should switch to Life and be the healer. Or better yet switch characters and you play the Oracle and he play the cleric. Rogues I like no complaint. Me I find a Bard a fifth party class. They have never in any campaign I saw held their own versus a primary class. Martial, Divine, Arcane or Trickster type. A straight fighter would serve your party better. If the group expects you to heal with two classes that can serve as healers switch to a Paladin and let them deal with that.


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You could also stay a cleric but be "not that kind of cleric". Be a bad touch cleric, a variant (rulership) negative channeler, a blaster, a battlefield controller, or a summoning cleric.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

It sounds like you don't have anyone the party who is a raw HP sink for monsters, whose job it is is to be the one taking the beat down. So instead that damage is falling to you. I'd say just don't be a cleric.

The Exchange

Wear full plate and a tower shield. Never make an attack and dont bother with the feats, use your actions to buff. Inevitable and leadership domains are solid here.

Spells:, bless, deathless, circle of protection, blessing of fervor....protectin from energy, holy smite, command, murderous command.

Feats: quick channel selective channel, toughness, ...

Scarab Sages

We need more info regarding party composition. Are they other guys built for combat? How do they contribute to the group? Do you have any ranged guys? What were your defensive measures taken aside from staying at reach as best you could?

Scarab Sages

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"So my clerics keep dying..."

Used to happen to me when I was a new god too. Eventually you sort out the riff raff.


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Eh, when you've been doing this long enough, they start sorting themselves out.


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How to not die as a cleric.
Dwarf
Heavy armor prof
stone plate
add a shield

Drink to Cayden Cailean

Domains
Travel and liberation
Boosts your movement speed to 40, you get longstrider as a domain spell, which lasts a long time.....Your a dwarf so heavy armor doesn't slow you down!!!!

Later on your flying and stone plate keeps you from getting rage pounced!!!

Try to do it right next time!!!

The Exchange

Really not enough info here. The answer may be:

1. You need to learn to cast buff spells (on yourself and/or buddies):
2. You need to learn not to pick these kinds of fights:
2a. Your group needs to learn to draw fights into better locations:
3. Your buddies need to learn not to let enemies mob their principal healer:
4. Your GM needs to learn that molesting the same player repeatedly really isn't doing the game any favors:
5. You should use more sanctuary, invisibility or similar spells that remove you from the valid-target list:
6. Your team needs to increase their damage enough to prevent enemies from living long enough to kill you; and/or
7. You need to stop taking the last slice of pizza when the GM is reaching for it.

Consider your performance to date and decide which answer(s) will assist you.


Some DMs play out every enemy as being mindless. Only ever attacking the closes enemies, never reacting to the PC's moves. Only using the scream, charge, whail at tankish PC untill either monster or PC drops.
No matter if mindless Zombie, INT 3 wolf, or INT 22 Mindflayer.

Some DMs play out every enemy as being a tactical genius with INT and WIsdom of 20, filled with cold logic. Every monster flanks, uses all terrain modifier to their fullest, and ignores the low-damage high-AC fighters to go directly to the much morejuice casters in the back.
No matter if mindless Zombie, INT 3 wolf, or INT 22 Mindflayer.

If your DM falls into the 2nd category your problem of dying is not directly caused by you, but rather by the DM. This can best be solved by having an open talk about playing out monsters in monster-behavior-appropriate ways.

P.S.
Take a level of Fighter, get Heavy Armor and Towershield. That alone is +5 AC over Breastplate + Large Shield.


Only one problem with a Tower Shield -2 to hit when using it. I'm not saying don't use it just bear in mind that does make a difference in combat. Had a guy use one in two separate campaigns willingly taking that hit doing amazing things with it still.
I agree with Guru about seeing if this is an issue with the GM. If there is a high group body count the GM is probably a bit on the brutal side. If it's just you maybe he is targeting you both are a problem. I'd consider both before talking with the group in general. Sometimes that is all that's needed.
Something I mentioned before is your group is all over the place for classes suggesting unorganized and not at all cohesive. That is something to consider discussing with your group. Granted we all play what we want and sometimes what is cool. But as a group we discuss what we might need for group survival. I'm not saying play something you guys don't want to play but if you and maybe your group keeps dying that might be something to consider as well. You guys lack even one Martial class. The Battle Oracle is nice but not a Martial class neither is the Bard. Another question is this a home adventure or modules. Modules often suggest what a party needs. Home grown a GM should tell you what he plans unless he actually doesn't know. Had a GM screw me over repeatedly by not telling me anything about his adventures but letting his friends know. Needless to say the group booted him out for being such a jerk.


Still say stone plated dwarf cleric with a large steel shield is a tank!!!

8 tentacle attacks walk through them and clobber the beast....

Fighter level is a waste just get heavy armor prof as a feat.
Buy heavy armor and ignore movement penalties.....

Dark Archive

OK, Donogar: I do like the idea of a heavily armored, mobile Dwarven cleric, but I gotta ask: why do you always recommend stone plate, rather than full plate? There isn't any functional difference if you can wear metal armor, and the stone plate is heavier. What gives?

Also, base (and armored)speed for Dwarven cleric with Travel and Liberation is 30', not 40. Not sure where you are getting the extra 10' from unless you are assuming that Longstrider is always on? If that is the case, there isn't any functional difference between your Dwarf and any normal Medium sized creature. I human with Longstrider plus Travel domain would have a 50 base speed, 40' in heavy armor.


I just like the flavor of Stoneplates!

First level I would purchase heavy armor and take proficiency also.

Longstrider is a free domain spell and last a long time. I have never been in an encounter without it


The +10 spd is the main reason I consider Travel as a Domain to take. Defense sub domain offers +1 saves and great selection of spells.
Stoneplate while cool sounding really isn't. It's heavy with a spd reduction and more expensive then Full Plate. It was more then anything meant for Druids who can't wear metal armor.
Defense subdomain offers Shield. While a combat spell it offers a bonus of four to shield not two like a standard shield. This also allows a Dwarf to use a two handed weapon like the Urgoth a great weapon for all it offers.


I'd also say just grab a shield and heavy armour and perhaps a trait that allows for Holy symbol to be held or tattooed.

Basically from what info we have you're getting hit.

Your battle oracle should be swift action healing you if you're that hurt too. Costs almost nothing in actions and saves a party member.


I say Warpriest. Swift action buffs/full attacks are Amazing. My dwarf has reached level 16 and I kinda feel he is unkillable at CR fights that are not beyond my teammates.
My DM hates him.


Derek Dalton wrote:

The +10 spd is the main reason I consider Travel as a Domain to take.

Stoneplate while cool sounding really isn't. It's heavy with a spd reduction and more expensive then Full Plate. It was more then anything meant for Druids who can't wear metal armor.
Defense subdomain offers Shield. While a combat spell it offers a bonus of four to shield not two like a standard shield.

Dwarves don't suffer speed reductions from heavy armor....FYI


KenderKin wrote:
Dwarves don't suffer speed reductions from heavy armor....FYI

No additional reduction. They come with reduced speed already build in.

Human in Heavy = 20ft.
Dwarf in Heavy = 2ßft.

the only relevant differnece is that a Dwarf can still use Acrobatics to tumble around AoOs.


That may be true guru but a human in stone plate moves at 15. So it was worth bringing up that dwarves suffer nothing for that.


A dwarven cleric (in heavy armor) at first level with the travel domain moves at 30!

A dwarven cleric (in heavy armor) at first level with longstrider moves at 40!


Taking 1 level in fighter gives you: 1 bonus feat, martial weapons (longbow), heavy proficiency, tower shield proficiency, an additional feat not taken up by heavy armor proficiency, +1 BAB, and +2 Fortitude. It's probably worth the tradeoff.


Longstrider does last a long time. Problem it's the Domain spell and once cast it's done.
Two levels of Fighter is usually how we do it. Second level extra BAB and extra feat. Two Combat feats always helps a cleric going for combat and defense.
Still see little reason to wear StonePlate unless Druid. Seen pictures really isn't all that cool looking but some people would disagree.


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I think part of the problem is that there Is too much duplication in the party. You have a cleric and a oracle both of which are ¾ BAB full divine casters with the same spell list. You also have a bard and a rogue both of which are skill monkey’s. You also have three characters that have some healing. What you don’t have is a full martial or any real offensive magic. Also from the sound of it the original poster has been creating basically the same character.

While an oracle of battle is better at combat than most they are still no match for a full martial class. True they can nova a few times a day for some very impressive results, but it takes time to buff up enough to be fully ready. The big problem is these two characters are too similar.

Since they will be getting a wizard soon a paladin would actually be a good addition to the party. As far as healing goes the oracle has the same spell list as the cleric and should already have all the cure wounds spell on his list of spells known. All that leaves is condition removal spells. These can usually be handled with consumables especially scrolls and potions.

The paladin is also the best defensive class in the game. They have good fortitude and will saves and even their reflex save is decent due to divine grace. They are immune to fear and disease and use heavy armor. With swift healing from lay on hands they are very difficult to take down. Smite evil keeps their offensive ability up where they cannot be ignored. They also have some spells including access to many condition removal spells. About the only thing they have difficulty is bringing someone back from the dead. If healing is really a problem than take the hospitaler archetype and maybe even an oath of charity.


If you can hold off I recommend taking some levels in Holy Vindicator instead of fighter. You get full BAB progression, martial weapon & heavy armor proficiency, channeling progression, 7/10 spellcasting progression, and some class abilities.


Have played the Vindicator all the way up just isn't really worth it honestly. The first couple of levels it gives you the nicer abilities of the class. Higher up they are not impressive enough to lose the spellcasting potential as a full cleric. The first level of it is nice enough. You add the number of dice of your channel to your AC until you are hit for one channel. So figure by the time you hit this class your channel die is at least four or five. That's 4 or 5 points to your AC a big step up for one channel a day well worth it. The nice thing about the ability is you don't have to be using the shield to get this boost. You could wear a buckler or just carry a shield on you back and you get this.


Galnörag wrote:
It sounds like you don't have anyone the party who is a raw HP sink for monsters, whose job it is is to be the one taking the beat down. So instead that damage is falling to you. I'd say just don't be a cleric.

Summoner cleric. Nothing says "meat shield" like summoned creatures! Herald Caller archetype if possible, and the usual summoning stuff. You can still channel, buff etc., don't need to get too close, and the extra bodies on the battlefield should help keeping the party (cleric included) safe.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Since people have asked a lot of questions, I'll answer them all but won't quote everyone.

Battle Oracle usually does summoning before attacking with his scythe. Full Plate armor.

Rogue goes for the sneak attacks. If she can't, she waits for the fight to end. Good at trap finding.

Bard usually inspires then shoops worth a bow.

I actually just played a monk cleric, not entirely sure I want to go too crazy with multiclassing, as when things went south they went south fast.

Dwarven cleric is something I hadn't considered yet and is certainly interesting, especially with full movement, though would just get boys of stepping and springing if I want a speed boost. Ideally I'd want access to the restoration Subdomain as,at level 10, the party has grown used to empowered healing.

I'd also grown attached to the heroism Subdomain, was nice to have that aura - saved the party multiple times.

Been looking into a bad touch cleric but haven't really gotten the gang of how it works just yet.

Also, if not a cleric, what should I switch to?


If youre healing in combat thats why you die. You should be buffing, summoning or hitting the enemy. Youre a cleric, not a wizard with robes who hangs in the back


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm healing in combat and I'm hitting things and buffing. But then I get pummeled.

I'm thinking I might make a bad touch cleric, see how things go


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
Battle Oracle usually does summoning before attacking with his scythe. Full Plate armor.

i prefer Metal Oracle over Battle Oracle


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ok? Not sure what my friend's character has to do with this (I only posted it due to someone asking for more info on the rest of the party)


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The "bad touch" cleric is just another squishy frontliner. I think your party already has more than enough of those. I'd suggest a summoner (meatshield for the squishies, flanking aid for the rogue), a traditional martial (see above), or a caster focussing on battlefield control.


Well with the full plate battle oracle you have someone to soak up damage...what types of things have you been fighting and where have you been fighting them?

Depending on what it is a wind oracle with the invisibility and wings revelations might help make you a nontarget while allowing you to throw out buffs, summons, and heals. You need space to fly though, and there's a few enemies that can see invisible creatures.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Have played the Vindicator all the way up just isn't really worth it honestly. The first couple of levels it gives you the nicer abilities of the class. Higher up they are not impressive enough to lose the spellcasting potential as a full cleric. The first level of it is nice enough. You add the number of dice of your channel to your AC until you are hit for one channel. So figure by the time you hit this class your channel die is at least four or five. That's 4 or 5 points to your AC a big step up for one channel a day well worth it. The nice thing about the ability is you don't have to be using the shield to get this boost. You could wear a buckler or just carry a shield on you back and you get this.

Yeah it's not a very good prestige class. In the RotRL campaign I'm playing in my character is a cleric 8/holy vindicator 6. I've felt the HV levels have mostly been worth it, but I built my character from the start to take levels in HV. I do think however taking some levels in it is a better alternative to taking levels in fighter if you can hold off having the weapon and armor proficiencies until 8th-9th level.

The Exchange

How about the animal domain? That should give you someone to protect you or act as an attack dog/wolf/TRex. Then concentrate on buffing and summoning would be my advice.

Good luck 7th Gen Cleric.


Bard should Buff more. Rogue should focus on stealth to be able to sneak all the time. She also should be flanking with the Battle Oracle. This is part of the problem this group isn't functioning well together.
The Oracle doesn't sound too bad but not a Martial Class. The Rogue and Oracle should be working to get the Rogue to flank as often as possible. Fights will end with them working together more. Advice for the Rogue take a level or two of Shadow Dancer. Free stealth almost all the time. Then Rogue can Flank almost all the time.
My opinion of the Bard class is well known and considered wrong but I still suggest the bard switch to another more useful class.
I'd suggest Warpriest since most of you will always having problems hitting in combat even with buffs. None of your are Martial which means your BAB will always suffer as a result. A Rogue sneaking gets to hit flatfooted and deal sneak that is why he compares favorably to a fighter.


Derek Dalton wrote:
My opinion of the Bard class is well known and considered wrong but I still suggest the bard switch to another more useful class.

Bard is a way more useful class than rogue. I'd change the rogue into something useful (I presume it's a chained Rogue, a.k.a. Pathfinder's Worst PC Class) before I'd switch the bard. The oracle is probably a better martial than the rogue. The average FF-AC of all the monsters in the bestiary is roughly 3 lower than the normal AC. At level 5+, a fighter has a higher chance to hit normal AC than a rogue to hit FF-AC.

Yes, I know that you apparently play some game where you need infight healing in every combat and the Rogue is best at dealing with traps, but the OP seems to be playing Pathfinder instead.


Bard class is best class!

But the idea that one player should tell another that they don't like to play with the class someone ELSE is playing is abborhent and the worst kind of people to play with. It's their character. Their concept. Their way they want to play. It's not disruptive like an anti paladin or conflict causing. It's literally the least conflict causing class in the game.

Also, to go back to my original point, BARD CLASS IS BEST CLASS.


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:


Rogue goes for the sneak attacks. If she can't, she waits for the fight to end. Good at trap finding.

This is profoundly worrisome. That rogue needs to pick up some tricks or pick a different class. There are lots of classes more versatile in combat that still handle everything a rogue can from traps to skills.


Switching from a bard to "something more useful" pretty much limits you to the Alchemist,, Skald, or one of the nine level casters, IMO. Since everything else is probably not as useful as the bard.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If your group insists that you heal in combat, get Quick Channel and Selective Channel. That allows you to 5' step, channel, and cast all in the same round.

If you are going to change characters, I would suggest a Oradin: a Paladin multi classed with Life Oracle for the Life Link revelation. Combining that with the swift actin lay on hands to yourself allows you to keep the party going and still do things.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like there is probably a problem with the way the group is handling combats and the group may need more front line melee people. Bard and a rogue is generally too many skill characters.


I apologize if I have offended anyone regarding me and my group's opinion on Bards. Now that being said in this case you have four classes that there is little synergy to. The Rogue and Battle Oracle should be working together and they are not. Rogues are usually meant to be used this way. Fighter type engages the enemy Rogue slips around behind and shanks the monster. I'd even suggest the Oracle just become a martial class maybe in this case a Paladin.
My opinion of the Bard in this case is he seems to be the ranged attacker. As a Bard he isn't built to be specialized as a ranged attacker. The fact the party lacks even one martial class lowers their survivability. Again lack of specialization.
The question has been helping one character survive and this is part of the problem. No one is really specialized not even the Rogue. I'm not saying play this or you will die. I'm seeing problems and how what I think might help. Maybe you should consider since you lack one is a Martial class. Fighter, Paladin, and Cavalier would be my first choices. You have healers, the Bard and Oracle. You have two skill bags, The Bard and Rogue. You lack a true Arcane, sorry Bards don't come close to this, but I have ran campaigns where no one had an Arcane and did pretty well. I think with these suggestions you and the party will be stronger. Again suggestion and my opinion.


The bards giving everyone a bonus to attack. That turns everyone into a higher " BAB."


Bless does the same and doesn't take actions to maintain unlike some of the Bards abilities. Again Bards are not at all specialized something this group in general lacks


Derek Dalton wrote:
Bless does the same and doesn't take actions to maintain unlike some of the Bards abilities.

"Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action."

I mean "casting spells" and "taking skill checks" take actions, but they aren't really things you have to maintain per se. So I have no idea what you're talking about.


Cleric's Bless spell is better then the Bardic performance for one reason unless the Cleric is actually killed it stays going. One minute per level per casting. Cheap to put on wand, or scroll. Bardic performance is rounds per day and states if at anytime a Bard can't take a Free action such as paralyzed or otherwise incapacitated the bonuses stop.

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