So my clerics keep dying...


Advice

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2ndGenerationCleric wrote:

So I'm about to play my 7th cleric in the campaign my friend has been running for 3ish years (6 died, one retired) and I'm hoping to maybe not die again this time. 2 were due to bad positioning on my part, 2 were mailed by a tiger and 2 I feel were kinda targeted (reach clerics dying in ways hero points can't save) but it's also a tough dungeon.

So I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should play something else. Party is a battle Oracle, a rogue, and a bard. We might be getting a wizard soon. Considered paladin but limited in crafting arms and Armor. Considered warpriest, but they aren't as good in terms of healing. I'm kinda stumped. Suggestions?

Well, it sounds like at last part of your problem is that your party composition is light on front-line defense. It's possible that the Battle Oracle is built for defense, but even if he/she is, they're holding the line by themselves up there. You're also lacking any full Arcane casters, so you're ability to deal damage to large groups is going to be limited.

You should be looking at the tactics of the whole party, not just yourself, if you want to reduce your mortality rate. One option you can try as a cleric is to go with one of the domains that grants you an animal companion (Saurian, Animal) and then apply the Bodyguard Companion Archetype from Animal Archive. Combine that with a defensive build (medium armor, heavy shield) and you should find yourself much more survivable.

Tactics-wise, don't neglect combat support. Healing is good, but at 7th level and above, you just can't outheal the damage output of the monsters anymore. Look at spells like Spiritual Weapon, and it's older brother, Spiritual Ally. These are typically a better choice (IMO) than standard summons because they deal Force damage, and their attack bonus is tied to your BAB and Wisdom. This means they usually hit better than you would in melee (your WIS is probably higher than your STR) and they can affect incorporeal creatures without any difficulty.

Looking at feats, consider Toughness. Also weigh the possibility of using a 2h weapon and picking up Shield of Swings; it's a +4 Shield bonus in exchange for halving your melee damage, which isn't that big of a deal if you plan to be mostly defensive/support. Alternatively, consider Shield Focus.


right, so the basically do the same thing, take a standard action to start, and are up for all the fights you want. And the bardic performance scales to get higher and higher bonuses.

But we get it, you don't like bards, you feel they are useless, because you play with really high charisma and int bards that have no combat stats so they can't do combat because, "that's how they're supposed to be played."


The idea that bless which adds one to attack and may not cover everyone present versus a scaling bonus to attack and damage and covers everyone that can hear/see it is somehow better and takes "less effort" shows you need to study up on bards, Derek.

In a campaign running for 3 years? That song should by now be swift action to start and offer a +3 bonus to attack and damage. Even at level 1 it is in every way superior to bless. Unless paralyze is somehow RAMPANT in a game, in which case I put to you that no one's going to be using that bless bonus anyways.


In fairness, the utility of "rounds per day" powers are going to go down significantly if your combats involve one character hiding until they're over, one character doing nothing but healing, and one character doing nothing but buffing...


well..
1. no real front. d8 - 3/4 bab isnt a wall.
it's not that a wall is a must have - but you need to work according.

2. unless super stat , super item game - all the 3/4 casters need to make a solid choice.
be great at casting Vs be great front liner Vs be medium minus hybrid.

a cleric that dont max his wisdom wont be super melee, at least not damage wise.

here are 4 options i like, all out last most fights.

the caster :
flame and feather domain
animal companion protect you, you use sacred summon to add more pets, buff, heal but always at the back - defended. wear full plate and tower shield and never use a weapon.

the melee.
feather (see the pattern) and travel .
be a dwarf.
feats : heavy armor , toughness, power attack and the team imp share spells.
start with 16 in con\str\wis. dex, int, cha low.
use dwarven waraxe - great saves, hp,
round 1+2 buff the animal while you hide behind it.
join in while the 2 of you are buffed.

the hybrid:
feather and travel or glory.
all in on wisdom > con. str = 14, no dex, int or cha.
versatile channel, channel smite, guided hand, power attack.
your wisdom now work for to hit and spells the same time.
rest of feats go toward meta feats.
you can fight with great to hit, so-so damage unless you buff up.
high DC and spell list

last : be a druid.
fly up, cast and never be any where near melee. summon, all the time.


2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
2 were mailed by a tiger

Where did it mail them to? Did it use correct postage?

;P


The problem I'm seeing a lack of specialization and cohesion. The Rogue and Oracle should be working together to tag team the monsters. In fact all party members in a combat situation should be working to drop one opponent then onto the next one. This is a sound tactic. One less monster one less chance to get hit.
I've suggested another class over the Bard because they lack specialization. Bards are utility but never can compare to a specialized class. Minus two to hit compared to a Martial class even with it's abilities. Spell selection is a mixture of Divine and Arcane but lacks the better of either one. Limited armor and or weapon selection. All of this in a group that seems without cohesion doesn't help. Case in point thread is about one guy dying three times. Three times when maybe with bad luck or circumstances only once. Three healers and he dies three times. This is partly why I'm suggesting he pick a Martial class and have the other player switch from a Bard to something else. I have also suggested the Rogue and Oracle start working together more.
If I were either the Oracle or Cleric I'd be casting Bless. In fights I suspect will be tough Blessing of Fervor, which Bards don't get. I'd have Shield of Faith as well. +3 Deflection AC far cheaper then a Ring of Protection. Protection from Alignment spells maybe not on my spell list but on scrolls maybe depending on the campaign. As the Rogue I'd be doing everything to be invisible or as close to impossible to see if not. I'd be moving to flank every chance I get. I'd be doing everything to beef up my armor and bonuses to hit so I can hit.
Since I and my group hate the Bard I don't have a suggestion except of course don't play one. I'm curious has anyone else died at least once and what the situation was.

Scarab Sages

Derek Dalton wrote:

The problem I'm seeing a lack of specialization and cohesion. The Rogue and Oracle should be working together to tag team the monsters. In fact all party members in a combat situation should be working to drop one opponent then onto the next one. This is a sound tactic. One less monster one less chance to get hit.

I've suggested another class over the Bard because they lack specialization. Bards are utility but never can compare to a specialized class. Minus two to hit compared to a Martial class even with it's abilities. Spell selection is a mixture of Divine and Arcane but lacks the better of either one. Limited armor and or weapon selection. All of this in a group that seems without cohesion doesn't help. Case in point thread is about one guy dying three times. Three times when maybe with bad luck or circumstances only once. Three healers and he dies three times. This is partly why I'm suggesting he pick a Martial class and have the other player switch from a Bard to something else. I have also suggested the Rogue and Oracle start working together more.
If I were either the Oracle or Cleric I'd be casting Bless. In fights I suspect will be tough Blessing of Fervor, which Bards don't get. I'd have Shield of Faith as well. +3 Deflection AC far cheaper then a Ring of Protection. Protection from Alignment spells maybe not on my spell list but on scrolls maybe depending on the campaign. As the Rogue I'd be doing everything to be invisible or as close to impossible to see if not. I'd be moving to flank every chance I get. I'd be doing everything to beef up my armor and bonuses to hit so I can hit.
Since I and my group hate the Bard I don't have a suggestion except of course don't play one. I'm curious has anyone else died at least once and what the situation was.

The predominant problem with the group, it seems, is tactics and builds. If that rogue is an unchained rogue, and is regularly moving into flanks with the battle oracle, then they SHOULD be making mince-meat of their opposition. COMBINE that with a bard, hopefully an archer, and enemies should be dropping like flies with that hyper-accurate rogue/oracle combo.

The group shouldn't be having trouble with damage, unless the bard is some sort of weird, "I only do skills" silly build. If the rogue really isn't contributing to the fight at all, then that's the problem, but it's a tactical one. And if you really ARE playing the group "healer" then it looks like combat for you is 1 guy doing ALL the work with a bunch of cheerleaders not even contributing.

My advice? Tell everybody else to do something. Your battle oracle is on the front lines, and he'll be fine there, but if he's engaging encounters basically SOLO, you guys are going to have a bad time. Make sure everyone has combat-viable builds, or if they don't that the DM isn't hitting them with full combats. A group of 4 APL 3 characters where 2 of the characters aren't contributing isn't a level 3 group.

Also, yeah, Derek is SUPER wrong about bards. I'm talking flat-worlder levels of wrong. :P


To make your clerics survive, you need to learn to love summoning. Get the feats. Do the maths and update the critters as you level. Up your speed as suggested. If possible, get invisibility. Make sure you get Sacred Summons and, say, Summon Good Monster. Get a tanky cohort if you can. Keep your initiative up, Reactionary is a good trait. Give up the idea of fighting in melee after level five or so, you will not do a good job. This frees you to pile on the defenses instead.


There is no reason a Cleric cannot be the hardest target in the group.

Full Plate + Tower shield. Stand on the front line. Laugh at opponents who rush the healer.

It you are not targeting opponents with spells, you can make strength your primary stat. You can choose to either deal mediocre (but not irrelevant) damage when not healing, or focus feats on 1 or 2 forms of battlefield control.


Party cohesion might be a problem if the rogue isn't flanking with the oracle for her sneak attacks. If she's ever waiting for the fight to end, she becomes dead weight in a combat. It's her job to make sure she can contribute which usually means getting sneak attack however she can. Is she a melee rogue? If that's the case maybe suggest the Press to the Wall and Circling Mongoose feats. Those can be a great aid in getting sneak attack for a melee rogue. Archer rogues have a much rougher time on the sneak attack front since you can't flank with a ranged weapon.

As far as the bard goes, haste and inspire courage is a great start but he should try to get other buffs up too. I'm currently playing a level 7 archer bard in a home campaign. I always cast Good Hope at the first sign of combat and then follow suit with Haste and Inspire Courage when combat starts. This nets the entire party an extra attack, a +5 on attack rolls, +4 on weapon damage rolls, +2 on saving throws (reflex is +3) and +2 on skill and ability checks and finally a 30ft movement increase. After the first round, I join the fight with my shortbow (while benefiting from all of my own buffs of course!). I also keep Liberating Command and Saving Finale on my spells known to keep my allies in the fight and dealing damage at all times. Lingering Performance synergizes very well with the "finale" line of spells and also means that when I use saving finale, my inspire courage performance keeps giving bonuses until I can start up the performance again. The fact that the Oracle is summoning is great because the summoned creature will also benefit from the bard's buffs.

As for what you should do, I would play some form of frontliner or an arcane caster if the wizard player you mentioned in the OP doesn't join the party.


Not just me, my group friends who have played in other groups all of them agree Bards kinda to totally suck! I however did say my opinion and apologized for offending anyone but I agree tactics is the problem.
Clerics can be tougher then a fighter in combat. Have played and seen played Clerics who had higher AC then the straight fighters. Two of the party members seem like good choices just poorly used. The Bard enough said already. I have suggested a specialist, preferably a Martial class. A good Arcane build would certainly help. If you insist on Dive class consider Hunter or Druid. Animal Companion. That tiger that mauled you now is mauling the monsters while you do whatever your build is. Depending on your build a level of fighter to get better weapons and profiency with heavy armor getting stone plate wouldn't hurt.


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flame cleric (theologian) , full plate and tower shield and.... fireballs, intensified...
many options to be great.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm Dwarf Cleric of Torag, with protection/tactics. Tactics is just a really nice initiative boost, and that weird clerical haste, protection gives you freedom from spending gold on a cloak of resistance, later a lesser cloak of displacement gives you constant miss chance.

with lesser meta magic rod of extend, and later beads of Karma, you can keep your AC high with Magic Vestments, again reducing gold spend on your amor and shield.

You can be a nearly untouched wall (not including rays...)

PFS Legal Dwarf Cleric:
Dwarf Cleric
Dwarf cleric of Torag 6/fighter 1
LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31, touch 14, flat-footed 30 (+10 armor, +3 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +6 shield)
hp 70 (7 HD; 6d8+1d10+27)
Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +10; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk dwarven waraxe +9 (1d10+4/×3)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 2/day (DC 12, 3d6), hatred
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +10)
. . 6/day—resistant touch (+2)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 6th; concentration +10)
. . 3rd—dispel magic, magic vestment (2), protection from energy[D]
. . 2nd—grace[APG], hold person (DC 15), shield other[D], spiritual weapon, weapon of awe[APG] (DC 15)
. . 1st—bless, burning disarm (DC 14), sanctuary[D] (DC 14), shield of faith (2)
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, stabilize
. . D Domain spell; Domains Protection, Tactics inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 23 (27 vs. bull rush, 27 vs. trip)
Feats Ancestral Weapon Mastery, Extra Channel, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Toughness, Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe)
Traits arcane temper, armor expert
Skills Appraise +4 (+6 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Knowledge (engineering) +5, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +7 (+9 to notice unusual stonework); Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones, +2 Perception to notice unusual stonework
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ inquisitor's direction
Combat Gear extend metamagic rod (lesser); Other Gear +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, mwk dwarven waraxe, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, boots of striding and springing, 6,840 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 3d6 (2/day, DC 12) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Protection) Granted Powers: Your faith is your greatest source of protection, and you can use that faith to defend others. In addition, you receive a +1 resistance bonus on saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 for every 5 levels you possess.
Cleric Domain (Tactics Inquisition) Deities: Gorum, Irori, Torag.

Granted Powers: It is the cold and tactical mind that often wins the day. A proper, carefully considered sacrifice can inspire one's allies to serve your cause.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs. Goblinoids/Orcs.
Inquisitor's Direction (6/day) (Su) Forego all actions for the round, 1 ally in 30 ft gains haste for 1 round.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resistant Touch +2 (6/day) (Sp) As a standard action, touch ally to grant Protection domain's resist bon for 1 min, but lose own bonus.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs. unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

The Exchange

Bards are awesome. Damn sorry to hear all that bard hate, but once bardic performance gets going, your bard becomes a full BAB class. The rest of your party too.

Lets say a human bard archer at lv 3:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14

+6 to hit on MW composite shortbow with +2 str rating for 1d6+2 dmg. By lv 3, you have precise, rapid shot. On inspire courage, you get +5/+5 for 1d6+3 dmg on hit.

A rogue can't hit those numbers, and a ranger with 16 dex would be at +5/+5 for 1d8+2 on rapid shot. The numbers from the bard match pretty well with a full BAB class, and they have spells on top of that. Why would anyone say bards suck?

The only issue is when the GM is limiting to 4 players, then I'd try for an evangelist cleric(has bard song), or substitute the rogue for a bard and give the bard trapspotter trait.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I really like the bard, and I've never met a table who wasn't happy to have one. The whole "Hi, I make all of you better" character is always welcome.


You haven't mentioned anything about limited sourcebooks that I've noticed so just picking some favourites off the srd:

I really like the trickery domain (deception subdomain).

Mirror image adds a lot to defence for a particularly grueling fight, Confusion is great crowd control which your party seems to lack (though it's possible your bard has it), the Sudden Shift domain power could go a long way towards helping your rogue get flanking attacks in. Also Veil is just odd enough for me to love.

Grace and Spiritual Ally are both great spell options for also helping setting up flanks.
Applying blindness is another great defence, possibly with AoE spells like Dark-Light. (Does blindness help rogues sneak-attack? Can't remember)
Stone Shield and Martyr's Bargain are nice immediate-action personal defences.

Then there's the usual, Sanctuary, Hold Person, Alignment Protection, Liberating Command, Pilfering Hand to take their weapons, Silence, Debilitating Portent, and some of the newer things like Greater Stunning Barrier.
Communal Resist Energy with a reach spell metamagic rod is a lot more satisfying than it's single-target variant.
Ideally the Oracle should be taking care of dispel magic since it'd be spammable when needed for him, but if not then it's usually a good defence option.
I've found the odd scroll of wind wall to be surprisingly helpful for a multitude of scenarios (like unexpected swarms which your group might struggle against) but my GM is kind of permissive so it might not be true for every table.

Possibly projecting here but your group seems to lack good multi-target options. Aside from Dark-Light, Cloud of Seasickness and Confusion if going Trickery I can't think of a huge number of Cleric spells that help against groups before 5th level spells, when you suddenly get too many (Greater Command/Forbid, Flamestrike, Hymn of Mercy, Insect Plague to name some I like)

*Edit* sorry if all of this was already known and I'm just, heh, preaching to the converted.


I don't like Bards despite what people insist. They are a fifth utility member of a party. I'd rather have a more specialized class over them. I keep reading about Bards having all these great spells, no they don't. Yes they have Buff spells or utility spells and even a few healing spells. If you are going healing pick a Divine class even the Inquisitor heals better then a Bard and has a better selection of weapons and armor. If you want offensive power go Martial class or Arcane. A Magus has a limited spell selection but all are offensive and they are designed to go melee. Something this party actually seems lacking. A Rogue in some situations is a better combat choice as well. Seen a Rogue in two hits drop a monster almost as fast as a high level Wizard. No Bard is ever going to be able to do that.
But that isn't the real issue for this thread. It's about a group that clearly isn't working together. If they did the cleric who posted the thread probably wouldn't be dying all the time. I and a lot of other people have suggested a more offensive or defensive class. A Cleric can be both depending on the build but that isn't the issue I'm seeing. The group lacks cohesion playing classes all over the place and not working together.
I stated between the Bard and Oracle they have all the healing needed. An more specialized Arcane class wouldn't hurt nor would a Martial class. A straight fighter but almost any other would work.

Grand Lodge

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To survive make sure you have the hit points don't short change Con 14 minimum 16 even better
Take toughness feat keep all of your hit points. You can buy a shawl of life keeping and a ages of recovery necklace.

I have a cleric of the trickery domain that give him inviability. so I can go invisible. While invisible I can heal, channel and summon and keep my inviability. Cast vanish on the rogue so they will do their job. If you are always drafted as the front line fighter you need better weapons damage and armor and the bard should have your back healing you,

The Exchange

Chainshirts are fine if you want to melee as a bard, if you wanted a breastplate, do armor expert + mithril breastplate. No ACP, you're good.

The problem with magus(unless hexcrafter) is its essentially a selfish class - you can nova, steal your team mates glory. Bards on the other hand, make everyone stronger, so you can win as a team. Even had I been playing full core, in a 4 person party I'd still toss up between bard or ranger(if it involved a lot of wildiness), rogue would only be a 1 level dip.

I've played on tables my animal companion was the *tank*. And that was on what most would call a nasty PFS scenario. Oh yes, we walked out of there fine.

Spoiler:

Even finished all the rooms in the time limit.

The fighter was an archer, and everyone hid behind my lion. And with bard song, we kicked @ss like champs. So claimimg you need a full BAB class to be at the front line is not true.

A dedicated arcane class, that I can understand. All that bard hate? Nope.


Just a Mort wrote:
Chainshirts are fine if you want to melee as a bard, if you wanted a breastplate, do armor expert + mithril breastplate. No ACP, you're good.

The issue with this is that you still have to contend with Arcane Spell Failure. The Bard only ignores it for Light Armour. A Bard with the Arcane Duelist archetype can get away with it at Level 10 though.

The Exchange

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Mithril armor is treated as light armor for everything except armor proficiency. That includes spellcasting.

"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. "


Jack of Dust wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:
Chainshirts are fine if you want to melee as a bard, if you wanted a breastplate, do armor expert + mithril breastplate. No ACP, you're good.
The issue with this is that you still have to contend with Arcane Spell Failure. The Bard only ignores it for Light Armour. A Bard with the Arcane Duelist archetype can get away with it at Level 10 though.

Funnily enough, I don't think the rules could disagree with you harder.

Mithral Armor FAQ wrote:


...
For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure,
...


Snowblind wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:
Chainshirts are fine if you want to melee as a bard, if you wanted a breastplate, do armor expert + mithril breastplate. No ACP, you're good.
The issue with this is that you still have to contend with Arcane Spell Failure. The Bard only ignores it for Light Armour. A Bard with the Arcane Duelist archetype can get away with it at Level 10 though.

Funnily enough, I don't think the rules could disagree with you harder.

Mithral Armor FAQ wrote:


...
For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure,
...

Nice, I wasn't actually aware of that! I'll be sure to keep it in mind for my own bard.

In any case, bards do not suck in the slightest from what I've seen. I also find the idea of them not getting good spells to be ludicrous. The amount of times Liberating Command or Saving Finale has gotten me or my allies out of a tight spot is insane, especially considering they are both level 1 spells.


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Disclaimer: I've just come home from an informal reunion with friends from Uni, so am not entirely sober.

Cavall wrote:
Bard class is best class!

I would never say Bards are "Best". I personally think that award is a toss up between Paladin, Inquisitor and Magus, personally.

But, despite the incredible amount if baggage and stigma that has been carried over from previous editions, the Pathfinder bard is actually very good, if one can get past the stereotype and build an effective character. Part of this boils down to the belief that many have that bards should be all Dex and Cha and prancing with an instrument - you can do that, but that doesn't mean you should do that.

Bards using the Dex-for-damage route can be Dex heavy, but usually they're better off being strength based and dipping into Barbarian or Fighter for big stonking 2-handed weapons of smackdown. A buffed-to-the-eyeballs bard might not hit as hard as a buffed-to-the-eyeballs fighter, but they can easily hit harder than an unbuffed fighter, which is what happens if there is no bard. Just remember that the Bards job is to kill the bad guy, not to throw some buffs out and let others do the killing for them.

In essence, support characters tend not to work very well except in big parties - so in smaller groups (e.g. 4 or less) bards need to actually deal viable damage and buff others to pull the 25% load that they should be.

Cavall wrote:
But the idea that one player should tell another that they don't like to play with the class someone ELSE is playing is abborhent and the worst kind of people to play with. It's their character. Their concept. Their way they want to play. It's not disruptive like an anti paladin or conflict causing. It's literally the least conflict causing class in the game.

Um. No.

I know the "Everyone should play what they want!" mantra is popular, but speaking as someone who typically plays frontliners, it really, really, really sucks when people bring ineffectual characters who hide behind mine and expect me to do all the work, cop all the claws to the face, sometimes heal me and whinge if I go down for "not being a good enough tank" while they do sweet FA in the background.

If the GM was willing to adjust the module to compensate, or give me some kind of recognition for doing 90% of the work in those cases, it wouldn't suck as much... but usually, it's just "No, they WANT to play the pacifist in the dungeon crawl! It's their character! The fact that you're forking out most of your share of the loot for healing potions isn't their fault!"

Okay, this might not be the most coherent rant ever. Point being: Pathfinder is a team-based game, and like any team-based activity, people who don't pull their weight hurt everyone, as it means more work for everyone else. Thus, my tolerance of "Everyone should play what they want" is limited, and comes with the "as long as they don't need to be carried through the adventure" proviso at least.

spectrevk wrote:
Well, it sounds like at last part of your problem is that your party composition is light on front-line defense. It's possible that the Battle Oracle is built for defense, but even if he/she is, they're holding the line by themselves up there. You're also lacking any full Arcane casters, so you're ability to deal damage to large groups is going to be limited.

To OP: This.

Frankly, with a bard and oracle alongside a cleric, there is a mountain of healing and buffs available, and all should generally be coordinating what to cast early on to get the most bang for the least actions, as actions casting buffs/heals aren't actions killing monsters. Point being that in such a group I wouldn't say a cleric is needed, and I'd suggest a Paladin.

In fact, if you're the character who dies the most, I'd definitely suggest a paladin, as good AC, great saves and lay on hands on self as a swift action will keep you standing far longer than a cleric will manage. If healing is needed in combat, there are still three people who can do that (and if the bard and oracle are refusing to, just stop healing them until they change their minds).

Additionally, Rogues are... well. Bad. It's not the player's fault, and given the history and style of rogues it's tempting to play them (I want to play them), but the class is simply woefully under-powered compared to... everything else. I sat down and crunched numbers at one point when working on a Rogue Thesis and associated house rules (too long to get into here), and the end result was that a TWF rogue with flanking would do about 70% of the damage of a comparable fighter, or about 20% of their damage without flanking... and a rogue build going anything other than TWF was, sadly, laughable. So even if your party member is smart, tactical, a great roleplayer and amazing person to have at the table, they are handicapped in the task of subtracting big numbers from the enemy HP, thus, life will be harder for everyone. This is amplified if they hang back, as it removes a pool of hitpoints to absorb damage from the combat, and means that those still in melee (you and the oracle) take more.

What you have is a mix of semi-support classes and an underpowered class, all of which struggle a little at dishing out punishment and surviving it in turn unless built very carefully. Thus, life is harder. What you need is one of two things:

    1) A frontliner who can stay up despite incredible punishment, such as a paladin
    2) Someone who can deal absurd amounts of damage, preferably from range while the battle oracle scythes things. Wizard or archer (ranger or fighter) comes to mind.

If you're concerned about the battle oracle going down... frankly, they have spell slots and can use them (preferably after the fight). The sooner the monsters are dead, the less damage needs to be healed.

/Half-drunken advice.


Have apologized and will again. My opinion of Bards is me and most of my friends. We have played Bards and all have found them lacking preferring more specialized classes. That being said I'm sure there are classes I love people will say suck.
My point though isn't about whether I like Bards or not, I don't. The point is the thread is about a player dying a lot and he seeks help how to improve his character and luck so he doesn't die. Cohesion is a problem or rather lack of one. I have suggested class changes for the party and him. I have suggested tactics and ideas as well. I'm not implying mine are the best. I know some will say I'm stupid don't know what I'm doing, etc, etc. These suggestions in my case would certainly help and I think they will help him.

The Exchange

Consider a witch. Witch + wizard = debuff city. Don't think monsters fight very well with evil eye, misfortune and extended cackle. If the wizard wants to throw phantasmal killer, they won't save well either. If you are not sure if you are going to get a wizard, then play one and control the battlefield yourself. Acadamae graduate trait lets you summon monsters as a standard action at the risk of making yourself fatigued(just get a cord of stubborn resolve, you) which gives the rogue a flank buddy.

Oh and I never advise people to play paladins. Sure, in the numbers game they're good, but not everyone(nor should you assume everyone) is willing to deal with the paladin code. I certainly am not.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I love paladins, but already am playing one in a didn't campaign.

I've narrowed my decision making down to two ideas: a bad touch cleric and a warpriest. As a warpriest I can buff then hit all I want. As a bad touch cleric I can debuff the enemy while the rogue im flanking with kills it. Torn. Suggestions?

Dark Archive

I like it.


Warpriest is a solid class having heard only one complaint their BAB is low compared to a straight fighter. The archtypes are interesting as well. With this class you can melee and provide flank for the Rogue because it seems the Battle Oracle isn't doing that. But according to what I've read the Rogue isn't trying very hard.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The rogue does try harder than I led on. Usually. And swit action divine favor makes up for warpriest bab.

That said, I'm leaning toward bad touch cleric. Should be interesting


Derek Dalton wrote:

The +10 spd is the main reason I consider Travel as a Domain to take. Defense sub domain offers +1 saves and great selection of spells.

Stoneplate while cool sounding really isn't. It's heavy with a spd reduction and more expensive then Full Plate. It was more then anything meant for Druids who can't wear metal armor.
Defense subdomain offers Shield. While a combat spell it offers a bonus of four to shield not two like a standard shield. This also allows a Dwarf to use a two handed weapon like the Urgoth a great weapon for all it offers.

A Druid.

Has a reason to wear stoneplate.
Can turn into a vicious animal.
Can summon vicious animals.
Can prepare healing spells and use cleric on a stick spells.
Flame strike is a beautiful thing.


Just a Mort wrote:

Bards are awesome. Damn sorry to hear all that bard hate, but once bardic performance gets going, your bard becomes a full BAB class. The rest of your party too.

Lets say a human bard archer at lv 3:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14

+6 to hit on MW composite shortbow with +2 str rating for 1d6+2 dmg. By lv 3, you have precise, rapid shot. On inspire courage, you get +5/+5 for 1d6+3 dmg on hit.

A rogue can't hit those numbers, and a ranger with 16 dex would be at +5/+5 for 1d8+2 on rapid shot. The numbers from the bard match pretty well with a full BAB class, and they have spells on top of that. Why would anyone say bards suck?

The only issue is when the GM is limiting to 4 players, then I'd try for an evangelist cleric(has bard song), or substitute the rogue for a bard and give the bard trapspotter trait.

I once tried to play a rogue and found I had a hard time surviving after the sneak attack. Ever since I have been multiclassing Rogue and Bard. You don't need 2 seperate characters.

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