The weakest sides of the Unchained Monk... or is it just my impression?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Why? Why the heck shouldn't I have my drunken monk with Wis as the third-highest stat after Con?

And even if I did have Wis as my second-highest stat, it would still be 15-17 and no better than my Inquisitor or Druid. (I'm playing human, overall starting stats Str 17+2, Dex 13 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 9)


Imbicatus wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
I didn't know Iron will gave a +6 bonus.
+2 from Iron Will and +1 from Indomitable Faith, because Monks need few feats to be good at their job. Higher WIS due to lower CON requirements than other classes - thanks to high AC and Improved Evasion - you are free to put more points into WIS too. This is the gist of the matter.
That's poor class design. You are saying that in order to be what the class should be you need spend a feat, trait and build you stats a particular way. If you have to do this it seem to me that is poor class design. You are right every umonk will be taking iron will and indomitable faith to make for this loss of good save. At that point shouldn't it just be a class feature?
My umonk didn't take Iron Will and won't be taking it. Of course, he is a Dwarf, and has a racial +2 against spells. If I take any save boosting feat it will be Steel Soul.

I might take Iron will but probably wouldn't. By saying the umonk doesn't have low will save because you can build it back in is saying the class is poorly designed. I don't think it is though. You can make perfectly fine monk with out the taking a trait and feat.

Liberty's Edge

Because it hurts your AC, Will save and ki pool - all the things people complain the monk is bad at. You're asking why your spells never work and you're always running out of them when you made an Int 14 wizard.

Shadow Lodge

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Monks, unlike wizards, have Multiple Ability Dependency. If you have only one ability that's important of course you want it to be very high, if not necessarily as high as it gets.

If you have multiple important abilities then any choice to prioritize a stat comes with trade-offs. And if we like build variety within a class (which I do) then it's good for the class not to be too locked into a particular way of prioritizing those stats. Aside from the crude "str-based/dex based" question, a character with abilities that let them take damage for allies (like a Life Oracle's Life Link, or the In Harm's Way feat) may want a much higher Con than usual for their class. A character that uses a lot of AoO, like a barbarian with CaGM or anyone with Bodyguard or a monk with Snake Fang or tripping, is going to want a higher Dex. Personally, I'm aiming for Fast Drinker which requires Con 18. (Note: we homebrew adapted the drunken archetype to UnMonk.) And then there are thematics.

The argument I'm seeing is "Monks should have a high Wisdom, because it's important for their Will saves. Because their Wisdom will be very high, it's OK for them to have a low base Will save."


Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, not to mention Evasion and Imp. Evasion, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Prioritizing WIS over DEX on a Paladin does that, but you don't hurt your AC because WIS gives you AC, your Reflex save is good (and have Imp. Evasion in case you fail saves), you have massive Perception and Sense Motive not to ever be surprised in combat, and you naturally grow DEX for AoOs with Belts, unlike a Paladin who doesn't want any more DEX than 12 because heavy armor gives no noticeable benefit for larger DEX investments.

The argument is "UnMonk's chassis allows to focus on WIS because it pads out all over defenses quite well."


Well... I'm realizing this: there are two paradigms to make a build, in terms of effectiveness, i mean to improve it to get the best from the game mechanics; well, at least two ways.

Paradigm One is to balance the build giving it what it lacks and placing it on par of other builds. I guess this is the way players like Secret Wizard prefer.

Paradigm Two is to enhance its already most powerful aspects; placing those aspects far beyond what other builds can ever have, not wasting a single resource on already poor aspects of the build. This is the kind of build some online gamers use in other games.

I like the Paradigm Two. It is the idea behind games like Street Fighter or King of Fighters; your characters is really strong at one point it is not an issue to be too weak in another aspect. Paradigm One can compare to games like MK 1, 2 or 3; every characters was the same as others, similar moves, power, etc. with a few unique differences, ah, and different sprites. I really don't like it, despite i liked MK in the past.

The UMonk poor will save can be improved if you make builds under Paradigm One. But UMonk is a poor choice if you make builds using the Paradigm Two. If you don't waste resources on already poor aspects of the build you don't purchase Iron Will, you prefer to make a Dex or Con build instead a Wis build, etc.

I admit the first weakest point of the UMonk is not as weak as i thought. So i understand, now, the why behind that decision.

But i still think the U Monk having a poor will save is a bad decision. It is not monkish. It fails to build the unbreakable mind monk. It fails to reflect the not really wise guy that thanks to hard and disciplined training improved his mind, but is still a dumb one to give wise advice. It also fails to reflect the guy whose path is to excel at every aspect in his pursue to perfection, not just in punching bad guys in their faces...

except if i accept what some people, like Ssalarn, VargrBoartusk and others, said. The U Monk is not really a monk, it is just the name of a pack of features in this game some people can use to make some monks... and other martial artists: disciplined combatants that desire to be in the front line rather than playing a support role, combatants focused in dealing damage with their own bodies rather than being mystical characters (but still being, to some extent). It is also an easier to use class for newbies.

In other words, my conclusion is: the Unchained Monk is as monkish as white chocolate is real chocolate. That does not change the fact white chocolate is tasty, but if i need to eat it for the need of caffeine and theobromine it is not the right choice. And to mix it with an expresso won't make it real chocolate. I like the class, i still can create Tekken/Street Fighter characters with it but not Miyagis, Kwai Chang Caines, Pai Meis or MMORPG-like monks. Well, i still can make a Li Mu Bai if i (homebrew) switch its poor save to fortitude.

I'd use it almost as it is now changing two things:
1) BAB is good for unarmed, natural, simple and monk weapons - not only in a flurry of blows - but average for other weapons... somehow like before. Add not proficiency penalties also.
2) Give it back the three good saves. Period. That was one of the simplest monkish features the class has.


I agree in the existence of two paradigms:

1. Boosting the relevant weak spots (for example, a Ninja or Wizard shouldn't try to boost AC because it's irrelevant) is feasible and a good way to make sure your character adapts to most situations.

2. I just want to auto-win rolls. If I cannot get 100% effectiveness in something, it's not even worth it.

I prefer the first paradigm. I think it adapts more to D&D itself, in that you are meant to be a real, living creature. If I compared it to a videogame, I'd say it's more like Fallout or Skyrim.

The second paradigm I feel adapts more to, say, Pokemon battling, in which you get to pick the weaknesses of your team (because there's no Pokemon team that doesn't get hard-countered by something). I find it very lacking and pretty underwhelming.

I think that UnMonk does the job very well and is, in strict terms, a better designed class than the regular Monk.

It's not perfect, but I can't think of a single class that is. But I know for a fact that it does its job way better.

My only wish is we had more archetypes to adapt to more playstyles. Right now, Combat Maneuvers and high CON playstyles have no real sustenance for the class.

Shadow Lodge

Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, not to mention Evasion and Imp. Evasion, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Prioritizing WIS over DEX on a Paladin does that, but you don't hurt your AC because WIS gives you AC, your Reflex save is good (and have Imp. Evasion in case you fail saves), you have massive Perception and Sense Motive not to ever be surprised in combat, and you naturally grow DEX for AoOs with Belts, unlike a Paladin who doesn't want any more DEX than 12 because heavy armor gives no noticeable benefit for larger DEX investments.

The argument is "UnMonk's chassis allows to focus on WIS because it pads out all over defenses quite well."

Except if all saves started out good, then each player would be able to decide if they wanted to balance Dex, Con, and Wis, with their respective benefits, or to specialize in one (and if so which one). And none of those would be obviously the right choice.

Making the Will save poor pushes you to pick Wis to compensate.

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's prqctically requiring it.


Weirdo wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, not to mention Evasion and Imp. Evasion, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Prioritizing WIS over DEX on a Paladin does that, but you don't hurt your AC because WIS gives you AC, your Reflex save is good (and have Imp. Evasion in case you fail saves), you have massive Perception and Sense Motive not to ever be surprised in combat, and you naturally grow DEX for AoOs with Belts, unlike a Paladin who doesn't want any more DEX than 12 because heavy armor gives no noticeable benefit for larger DEX investments.

The argument is "UnMonk's chassis allows to focus on WIS because it pads out all over defenses quite well."

If all saves started out good, then each player would be able to decide if they wanted to balance Dex, Con, and Wis, with their respective benefits, or to specialize in one (and if so which one). And none of those would be obviously the right choice.

Making the Will save poor pushes you to pick Wis to compensate.

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's prqctically requiring it.

Oh, yeah, totally agreed. I'd probably say the same thing about Swashbucklers or melee Bards and CON.

That being said, the regular Monk was not better in this aspect. They needed high ass STR or DEX to even hit reliably, had a large requirement of CON, and had few points to spare for WIS (no more than 14). What's more, they had to dump both INT and CHA to get to a good level of attributes.

The only variance in this was the Sohei archetype (which was functional with 12 DEX thanks to Light Armor Prof) and the Sensei/Drunken Master archetypes, which had different attribute priorities.

Of course, those are archetypes, that the UnMonk is now receiving. Hopefully, we'll get more of them that can allow new playstyles and distributions.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Last I checked, constitution gives monks the same bonuses it does any other class. It's a bit odd to argue they gain no benefit from having higher Con.

Now, I imagine what you were actually trying to say is that they need Con less than a D8 HD class with low fort saves. Which I think there's plenty of room to argue over, given that the UnMonk is a frontliner class that's expected to trade attack with big hard-hitting enemies. Every other D10 HD Good Fort class still wants a decent Con score, after all.

Scarab Sages

Chengar Qordath wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Last I checked, constitution gives monks the same bonuses it does any other class. It's a bit odd to argue they gain no benefit from having higher Con.

Now, I imagine what you were actually trying to say is that they need Con less than a D8 HD class with low fort saves. Which I think there's plenty of room to argue over, given that the UnMonk is a frontliner class that's expected to trade attack with big hard-hitting enemies. Every other D10 HD Good Fort class still wants a decent Con score, after all.

They can have a 12 minimum where core monk needed a 14 minimum though. My umonk has a 14 CON, but you can make due with a 12. Personally, my ideal monk set up on 20 pt buy is a dwarf with a 16/14/14/12/16/5 post racial adjustment.

Liberty's Edge

Weirdo wrote:

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's practically requiring it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.


Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's practically requiring it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.

Well... using that argument we can also say will save should be a poor save on the cleric too, because the cleric should be a wise spiritual guy, so we are encouraging people to build a wise cleric.


cablop wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's practically requiring it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.

Well... using that argument we can also say will save should be a poor save on the cleric too, because the cleric should be a wise spiritual guy, so we are encouraging people to build a wise cleric.

You could, but then you'd need to either give them 4+INT ranks per level, or make Channel not Charisma based or heavy armor or some other quality of life boost because right now they are, in spite of being so powerful a class at higher levels, a very MAD class early on.

That being said,, I'd love to see a nerf to Clerics/Druids/Wizards in general.


Secret Wizard wrote:
cablop wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's practically requiring it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.

Well... using that argument we can also say will save should be a poor save on the cleric too, because the cleric should be a wise spiritual guy, so we are encouraging people to build a wise cleric.

You could, but then you'd need to either give them 4+INT ranks per level, or make Channel not Charisma based or heavy armor or some other quality of life boost because right now they are, in spite of being so powerful a class at higher levels, a very MAD class early on.

That being said,, I'd love to see a nerf to Clerics/Druids/Wizards in general.

Mmmmm. You are right, placing things in those terms... Those clases need to be nerfed... or the other classes need to be improved.

With nerfing casting classes i can accept the poor will of the monk. Without that nerf i still vote for a good will save on the u monk to be on par.

And i think the same way the Barbarian gets a d12 HD exception, the U Monk can have a three good saves exception too. It won't hurt and makes it more flexible, if people don't want to spend in wis, ok, don't do; you are still a playable monk.


cablop wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
cablop wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

Shisumo was shocked at my Wis 14 monk and compared it to an Int 14 wizard. That is not "allowing" you to focus on Wis, it's practically requiring it.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.

Well... using that argument we can also say will save should be a poor save on the cleric too, because the cleric should be a wise spiritual guy, so we are encouraging people to build a wise cleric.

You could, but then you'd need to either give them 4+INT ranks per level, or make Channel not Charisma based or heavy armor or some other quality of life boost because right now they are, in spite of being so powerful a class at higher levels, a very MAD class early on.

That being said,, I'd love to see a nerf to Clerics/Druids/Wizards in general.

Mmmmm. You are right, placing things in those terms... Those clases need to be nerfed... or the other classes need to be improved.

With nerfing casting classes i can accept the poor will of the monk. Without that nerf i still vote for a good will save on the u monk to be on par.

And i think the same way the Barbarian gets a d12 HD exception, the U Monk can have a three good saves exception too. It won't hurt and makes it more flexible, if people don't want to spend in wis, ok, don't do; you are still a playable monk.

I would actively discourage, as part of class design, not investing on WIS. If you want to be a simple guy who knows kung fu, go Brawler. Monk is about the mysticism.

Shadow Lodge

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I'm definitely on board with 4+Int skill ranks for clerics. Fighters, too. Maybe also paladins. Added bonus: actually discourages hard-dumping Int because there's a difference between your skill points with 8 and 7 Int.

Secret Wizard wrote:

That being said, the regular Monk was not better in this aspect. They needed high ass STR or DEX to even hit reliably, had a large requirement of CON, and had few points to spare for WIS (no more than 14). What's more, they had to dump both INT and CHA to get to a good level of attributes.

..

Of course, those are archetypes, that the UnMonk is now receiving. Hopefully, we'll get more of them that can allow new playstyles and distributions.

I agree that the Core Monk had similar problems. Despite the original direction of the thread I do think the UnMonk is overall an improvement.

However I would really have liked the UnMonk's "fixes" to include making more varied stat spreads viable, instead of just switching the requirement to start with lots of Con to a requirement for lots of Wis. I share your hope that more archetypes will add more variety but think this could have been there from the start, and that there was no good reason for a more limited design. I don't see anyone arguing that a better will save would be OP, and the precedent argument goes both ways since people were expecting a monk with all good saves more strongly than they were expecting martials to have only two good saves.

Shisumo wrote:

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am 100% suggesting that U!monks are required to focus on Wisdom.

What I am less clear on is why that is controversial. Wisdom, in its non-mechanical sense, is basically the defining trait of monks when they are described in fiction. Why shouldn't it likewise be the case in the mechanics that define it in-game as well? I think it is good game design that the mechanics so thoroughly encourage you to build your monk to match the archetype it is trying to replicate.

As cablop pointed out, priests are also supposed to be very wise, but no one bats an eye at a combat cleric with only 14 Wis - in fact, in low pb games you'll be encouraged to get away with a 13 to start.

And Wis 14 is actually very good. For non-heroic NPCs, their highest stat is 13-15 after racial modifiers. Many of the low-level heroic NPCs in the NPC Codex have a 14 in their second-highest stat.

Without the low Will save, with the AC bonus and ki alone, monks are still encouraged to have a very good wisdom, but it's fine to make one that has a merely above-average wisdom.

Plus, being quick is also a big part of the monk legend ("snatch the pebble from my hand") and we're not talking about giving a monk a poor reflex save to encourage them to keep their Dex up above 14.


Imbicatus wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:

And prioritizing Wis over Con hurts your HP and Fort save.

And prioritizing Wis over Dex hurts your AC, Reflex save, Initiative, and possibly number of AoO if you have Combat Reflexes.

Prioritizing WIS over CON on a Bard does that. For a Monk, you have 1d10HD and a good Fort save, so your HP and Fort are fine with an okay investment.

Last I checked, constitution gives monks the same bonuses it does any other class. It's a bit odd to argue they gain no benefit from having higher Con.

Now, I imagine what you were actually trying to say is that they need Con less than a D8 HD class with low fort saves. Which I think there's plenty of room to argue over, given that the UnMonk is a frontliner class that's expected to trade attack with big hard-hitting enemies. Every other D10 HD Good Fort class still wants a decent Con score, after all.

They can have a 12 minimum where core monk needed a 14 minimum though. My umonk has a 14 CON, but you can make due with a 12. Personally, my ideal monk set up on 20 pt buy is a dwarf with a 16/14/14/12/16/5 post racial adjustment.

Personally, I would never be happy with a frontline melee character who only had 12 Con. Yeah, the Core Monk needs Con even more to make up for a lower hit dice, but i certainly wouldn't make a frontline fighter, barbarian, ranger, etc. with only 12 Con, if I had any choice, so I wouldn't do that for a Monk either. Frontline melee just involves taking too much HP damage and making too many fort saves.

The only frontline melee class I'd consider running with less than 14 Con is a Paladin, thanks to their swift-action self-heals.


Monk takes very little damage. 12 CON is more than enough. Your Fighters are taking those Scorching Rays to the face and the Fireball damage. The Monk dodges out of rays and touch attacks, and always negates AT LEAST half damage from evocation spells.

Plus, the Monk gets access to Restoration as an SLA - which the Paladin can't use effectively. So if you are getting shot Enervation to the face, the Monk can do much better with lower CON than the Pally.

High overall AC rates help too.


The only thing I don't like about the UMonk is the low Will Save. Doesn't feel thematic. My own fix for it would be:

1. Amendment to Ki Pool
At 3rd level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. As well as long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool he has +2 to this Will Save.

At 8th Level, as long as a monk has at least 1 point in his ki pool he has +4 to his Will Save

At 16th Level The Monk has +4 to his Will Save even when his ki pool is depleted.

It's a straight buff but a thematic one (Monk has to grow into being a mystically strong willed character, has to husband spiritual energy to maintain this mystical power until high levels) and I don't think it makes the UMonk OP.

A weaker buff would be to make this a Ki Power you have to select.

Love everything else 'bout the UMonk though.


I'd like that if you removed Still Mind.


Secret Wizard wrote:
I'd like that if you removed Still Mind.

Ah, agreed. Adding that to Still Mind would definitely be OP.


Well, not as much as OP as redundant.

Liberty's Edge

Weirdo wrote:
As cablop pointed out, priests are also supposed to be very wise, but no one bats an eye at a combat cleric with only 14 Wis - in fact, in low pb games you'll be encouraged to get away with a 13 to start.

I don't think the comparison is valid, however. "Wise" and "monk" are much more tied together conceptually than "wise" and "priest" are.[See Note 1.] Sure, wise priests are a thing, but so are non-wise ones, and no one really bats an eye at them. (Please note that I am referring to real world concepts, here, not game constructs or mechanics.) Consequently, I don't think the mechanics do or should push the same level of Wisdom-focus for clerics as for monks, given what each is intended to represent.

Note 1:
A Google search for "priest" returns 125 million hits, while a search for "monk" produces a little over 80 million - about a third less. Despite that, however, searching for "wise monk" returns about a third more hits than searching for "wise priest."


Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
As cablop pointed out, priests are also supposed to be very wise, but no one bats an eye at a combat cleric with only 14 Wis - in fact, in low pb games you'll be encouraged to get away with a 13 to start.

I don't think the comparison is valid, however. "Wise" and "monk" are much more tied together conceptually than "wise" and "priest" are.[See Note 1.] Sure, wise priests are a thing, but so are non-wise ones, and no one really bats an eye at them. (Please note that I am referring to real world concepts, here, not game constructs or mechanics.) Consequently, I don't think the mechanics do or should push the same level of Wisdom-focus for clerics as for monks, given what each is intended to represent.

Note 1:
A Google search for "priest" returns 125 million hits, while a search for "monk" produces a little over 80 million - about a third less. Despite that, however, searching for "wise monk" returns about a third more hits than searching for "wise priest."

I'd love to see that google comparison run in chinese and hindi (or whatever represents indian tradition) too.


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Proposal:

1. Base Save Bonus progressions become fair game for archetypes to modify.

2. Classic Monk archetypes get converted for Unchained Monk (except for Qinggong, which is already baked into it).

3. Some of the converted archetypes modify the Base Will Save to be Good Progression.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Proposal:

1. Base Save Bonus progressions become fair game for archetypes to modify.

2. Classic Monk archetypes get converted for Unchained Monk (except for Qinggong, which is already baked into it).

3. Some of the converted archetypes modify the Base Will Save to be Good Progression.

Give. I don't care how you do it, give.

Shadow Lodge

cablop wrote:
A Google search for "priest" returns 125 million hits, while a search for "monk" produces a little over 80 million - about a third less. Despite that, however, searching for "wise monk" returns about a third more hits than searching for "wise priest."

I'm getting 25.8 million hits for "wise priest" and just under 9.5 million for "wise monk," which gives you 1 "wise priest" for every 5 "priests" and only 1 "wise monk" for every 9 or 10 "monks."

Of course, some of the hits for "monk" are actually talking about members of the cleric class, so maybe this isn't the best way to determine how strong certain concepts are in general real-world thought.

And even if it WAS a good quick look... I'm getting over 28 million hits for "wise oracle" and only 300K for "charismatic oracle," many of which are Pathfinder itself. So clearly Paizo doesn't care all that much for exactly how we see a particular concept when good game design points elsewhere.

Liberty's Edge

I don't really have a way to put together a sociological study in time for this post to still matter; the Google search was the best I could come up with off-hand. I will note though that you're looking at wise + priest and not "wise priest" (likewise wise + monk and not "wise monk"), and my point was not only the two words together but the specific relationship between them. The search algorithm itself seems to think the actual phrasing is more accurate when you tie them together that way, though, since even without the quotes the top hits for wise + priest involve a law firm in Tupelo and the top hits for wise + monk involve, well, wise monks. (Image search pops on the monks too - nothing from the priests.)

Weirdo wrote:
And even if it WAS a good quick look... I'm getting over 28 million hits for "wise oracle" and only 300K for "charismatic oracle," many of which are Pathfinder itself. So clearly Paizo doesn't care all that much for exactly how we see a particular concept when good game design points elsewhere.

That's not necessarily good game design, though. In fact, there were a number of players who were not thrilled about oracles being Charisma-based back during the APG playtest for this exact same reason. They felt oracle was the wrong concept to attach to a Charisma-based spontaneous divine caster, that Paizo was hammering a square peg into a round hole because "spon casters must be Charisma-based," full stop. This was especially aggravating to them with the inquisitor sitting right there in the same book.


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Ok then, now that we are comparing the monk and the cleric in a somehow real world representation of those roles in game, i can make this question:

Suppose we meet two guys, their abilities are the same (in game same ability scores), one a monk and one a priest, they're equally wise (in game they have the same Wis score, already said, but emphasized), equally expert in their fields (in game, same levels). Who is supposed to be the harder to manipulate his mind? Who is supposed to be the one harder to enchant? Who is supposed to be the stronger when it comes to "he made up his mind"? The harder to seduce? The harder to be convinced by a charismatic performer, noble or politician?

Always the cleric?

So in game terms, has a cleric a stronger willpower than a monk of same ability scores?


cablop wrote:

Ok then, now that we are comparing the monk and the cleric in a somehow real world representation of those roles in game, i can make this question:

Suppose we meet two guys, their abilities are the same (in game same ability scores), one a monk and one a priest, they're equally wise (in game they have the same Wis score, already said, but emphasized), equally expert in their fields (in game, same levels). Who is supposed to be the harder to manipulate his mind? Who is supposed to be the one harder to enchant? Who is supposed to be the stronger when it comes to "he made up his mind"? The harder to seduce? The harder to be convinced by a charismatic performer, noble or politician?

Always the cleric?

So in game terms, has a cleric a stronger willpower than a monk of same ability scores?

Neither, each has their price.


Thinking of monks and monk-like characters in fiction, I can think of as many drunken monks and monks who can't resist temptation as wise / high willpower monks.

The defining factor of monk-like martial-artists is usually their amazing dexterity. The defining factor of other 'monks' is their refusal to resort to physical violence.


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There is a place for a class in the game that bends the rules a bit by having all good saves and the monk should be that class. Drunken monks should be an archetype that gives the will save up for other goodies.


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Weirdo wrote:
Plus, being quick is also a big part of the monk legend ("snatch the pebble from my hand") and we're not talking about giving a monk a poor reflex save to encourage them to keep their Dex up above 14.

This. Though mostly for the quote.. Kwai Chang Caine is more or less what I think the Monk class was trying to emulate rather than any of the wuxia action movie guys. It's a very westernized pulp genre monk more than any sort of honest attempt at an accurate cultural depiction.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

Thinking of monks and monk-like characters in fiction, I can think of as many drunken monks and monks who can't resist temptation as wise / high willpower monks.

The defining factor of monk-like martial-artists is usually their amazing dexterity. The defining factor of other 'monks' is their refusal to resort to physical violence.

To be fair how many of those were

a) Still actual monks and not former monastic students or martial artists
b) Overly playing up the reputation of a drunkard for some greater purpose
or c) a deliberate negative depiction for use as a villain or redemption story fodder
Also on occasion D) Not characters in anima or manga where the drunken lecherous monk is deliberately played aginst type for the lulz


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I still think the UnMonk is better at depicting anything at all than the CRB Monk.

Perhaps in some ways the CRB Monk was more able to do so, but in many, many ways it failed. Plus it was a trainwreck mechanically.

Would I have done the UnMonk the same? Probably not. I'd probably push Flurry to level 5, and make the hallmark ability of the Monk combining STR AND DEX on attack/weapon damage rolls.

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Thinking of monks and monk-like characters in fiction, I can think of as many drunken monks and monks who can't resist temptation as wise / high willpower monks.

And you do also see priests who can't resist temptation. Frollo comes to mind.

Shisumo wrote:
That's not necessarily good game design, though. In fact, there were a number of players who were not thrilled about oracles being Charisma-based back during the APG playtest for this exact same reason. They felt oracle was the wrong concept to attach to a Charisma-based spontaneous divine caster, that Paizo was hammering a square peg into a round hole because "spon casters must be Charisma-based," full stop. This was especially aggravating to them with the inquisitor sitting right there in the same book.

Because of the Inquisitor, I think it's more that they wanted a charisma-based divine caster than that they wanted a spontaneous caster (that then needed to be charisma-based). "Oracle" isn't a perfect fit conceptually, but it's better than 3.X's "favoured soul."


Secret Wizard wrote:

I still think the UnMonk is better at depicting anything at all than the CRB Monk.

Perhaps in some ways the CRB Monk was more able to do so, but in many, many ways it failed. Plus it was a trainwreck mechanically.

Would I have done the UnMonk the same? Probably not. I'd probably push Flurry to level 5, and make the hallmark ability of the Monk combining STR AND DEX on attack/weapon damage rolls.

That'll make an interesting archetype.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

I still think the UnMonk is better at depicting anything at all than the CRB Monk.

Perhaps in some ways the CRB Monk was more able to do so, but in many, many ways it failed. Plus it was a trainwreck mechanically.

Would I have done the UnMonk the same? Probably not. I'd probably push Flurry to level 5, and *make the hallmark ability of the Monk combining STR AND DEX on attack/weapon damage rolls*.

That could actually be an interesting take: intentionally make the Monk MAD, but then actually reward it for balancing its stats rather than having a spike or a dump. Give it skill points based on Int and Wis, attacks based on Str and Dex, HP based on Con and Str, and AC is already based on Dex and Wis, and etc.

Perhaps similarly to Dark Souls II's "mundane" weapons, which are best used with stats all equivalent to each other (because they scale with your lowest stat, but having a 20 in your lowest would give you similar damage to have 60 strength with a greatsword).


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GeneMemeScene wrote:
That could actually be an interesting take: intentionally make the Monk MAD, but then actually reward it for balancing its stats rather than having a spike or a dump. Give it skill points based on Int and Wis, attacks based on Str and Dex, HP based on Con and Str, and AC is already based on Dex and Wis, and etc.

This. This is actually the coolest idea for the monk I've ever read. This really fits the idea of the wholesome monk that brings the different aspects of his body and mind in harmony.


Yeah, that was my Monk fix back in the day. Should I write it down and post it on the Homebrew section? XD

Shadow Lodge

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GeneMemeScene wrote:

That could actually be an interesting take: intentionally make the Monk MAD, but then actually reward it for balancing its stats rather than having a spike or a dump. Give it skill points based on Int and Wis, attacks based on Str and Dex, HP based on Con and Str, and AC is already based on Dex and Wis, and etc.

Perhaps similarly to Dark Souls II's "mundane" weapons, which are best used with stats all equivalent to each other (because they scale with your lowest stat, but having a 20 in your lowest would give you similar damage to have 60 strength with a greatsword).

Very cool, though if you add Wis to skills without adding Int to something other than skills I expect you'd actually see a lower average Int among monks.

Reflex saves or Initiative seem most plausible for an Int-based bonus.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Yeah, that was my Monk fix back in the day. Should I write it down and post it on the Homebrew section? XD

Yeah please do. And adding Int to Init is a great idea from Weirdo.

But what about Cha.....


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How about ki pool being 1/2 level + WIS + CHA?


Azih wrote:
How about ki pool being 1/2 level + WIS + CHA?

I was about to say that. Cha would work for the ki pool. This way we can still have the monk that traded wisdom for empathy, a la Peter Caine (well, Peter would be a multiclass character, Cop/Shaolin Monk).

But i was thinking that if i had to design the class, the monk would also be a limited spontaneous caster, cause they have a lot of spell-like tricks like levitate, spider climb or heat metal, a la Kwai Chang Caine, he used that one a lot against guys with guns.

I'd still make it three good saves + the synergy stats. I'd like the synergy of stats people is proposing here, really, that makes a guy who is really trying to make himself perfect and not depending on or be tied to material things. In the end it's not going to make the character OP, cause the points he can spend on stats are the same.

Let me think, i'd start with the UMonk chasis and then change, HD to d8 (changing BAB to moderate also), make the three saves good, make it a psionic or psychic caster with spells per day equivalent to a paladin three levels lower (or half the level) with a very limited list of spells (sutra caster would work too), make the synergy things you are proposing (Str+Con for HPs, Str+Dex for atk/dmg, Wis+Dex for AC, Wis+Cha for ki pool (already alleviating the low ki pool), Int+Wis for skill points (not really sure on this one), Int+Dex for initiative, Int+Cha for casting (but the bonus spells you only get from the highest score)) and maybe not making still mind a fixed feature but optional and offer equivalents for the other two saves. Flexible, powerful, not depending on material mundane stuff and lowering the HD and BAB compensate for it, not MAD anymore, cause you build what you want sacrificing other things but not shooting yourself in your toes. So you can make the strong monk, or a wise one, or a fast one or a smart one or the empathic one or the healthier one or the skilled one. From the Sorata of X to the Kwai Chang Caine passing by drunken monks, Peter Caine, Li Mu Bai, Dhalsim, etc.


I forgot, by using armor the monk loses the Wis bonus to AC, the Dex bonus to atk/dmg and Int bonus to initiative aside the normal armor penalties.


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A monk

You can't say that Umonk does not have a worst will save. Normal monks have just as much reason to pump wis as a umonk.

I don't like Umonk. The passive monk defenses are my draw to the class. Those got removed via lower saves and gating abilities behind ki.

Umonk is not a bad class, it's just not anything I want.


Rhedyn wrote:

A monk

You can't say that Umonk does not have a worst will save. Normal monks have just as much reason to pump wis as a umonk.

I don't like Umonk. The passive monk defenses are my draw to the class. Those got removed via lower saves and gating abilities behind ki.

Umonk is not a bad class, it's just not anything I want.

Ok. I hope you can read my post in full:

Here's an UnMonk.

Notes:

1. Even though I don't like Dragon's Roar or Power Attack, I took the exact same feats as you did to imitate your build.

2. I didn't get a +3 Amulet or Weapon Focus (opting for a +2 Amulet and Iron Will). This still lands me on +20 for accuracy because the UnMonk doesn't take -2 to attacks while flurrying. So it effectively compensates for Weapon Focus and the ability to use Elemental Fury more than compensates for the loss of +1 damage. Also even without Elemental Fury there's the fact that I can Flying Kick and Elbow Smash. +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 is probably +1 damage higher in output than +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10. Probably. And Flying Kick can increase output significantly against moving targets or when switching.

3. Not needing Amulets of Fists +3 to match your dude allows me to buy a Headband of Wisdom +4. Them's the breaks. I also had 10k left so I bought a Jingasa. That left me with 5k I left untouched.

4. I have less base CON and I don't use my favored class bonus on HP, but I have the same HP (1d10 hitdice, max HP calculated using the same method you did). I can freely use my favored class bonus on Ki and take 12 CON. That still nets me +3 Ki. This means that those "gated" abilities are easier to use. Not to mention you can custom tailor your ki abilities to fit your party (if you have a Druid, ignore Diamond Body and get something like Diamond Mind for example.)

5. I didn't note down Dragon Style/Still Mind benefits to saves or damage, but they should be the same in both builds.

Conclusion: Better chassis allows you to save money on accuracy and invest in saves to maintain 1-to-1 save parity. Your build has advantages: +1 fort and diamond body is passive rather than active. My build has advantages: Flying Kick for mobility, higher base damage, access to style feats that at higher levels can be combined, better damage on non-full attacks, higher Stunning Fist DC.

I may accept emotional arguments like the ones that cablop makes because I can't force anyone to feel anything if they have a guttural reaction to seeing a bad Will save and think that it is thematically worse.

But saying the UnMonk has less Will saves effectively and no progressing defenses is flat-out wrong.

Spoiler:
UnMonk
Male Human monk 12
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3, Senses Perception +21
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 35, touch 26, flat-footed 32 (+4 armor, +5 natural armor, +3 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 luck)
hp 112 ((12d10)+24)
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +17

=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 70 ft.
Flying Kick Flurry +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (2d6+8, 19-20/2x)
Elbow Smash Flurry +20/+20/+20/+15/+15 (nonlethal)/+10 (2d6+8, 19-20/2x)

=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 7,
Base Atk +12; CMB +18 (+20 trip); CMD 43 (45 vs trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Roar, Dragon Style, Elemental Fist, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Skills Acrobatics +18, Acrobatics (Jump) +34, Climb +21, Perception +21, Stealth +18,
Traits Indomitable Faith, Resilient,
Languages Common
Total Ki Pool: 15
SQ abundant step, ac bonus, bonus feat, bonus ki (12x), dual talent, elbow smash, evasion, fast movement, flurry of blows, flying kick, improved evasion, high jump, ki pool, ki powers, diamond body, purity of body, qinggong power (barkskin, ki arrow), still mind, stunning fist, style strike, unarmed strike, weapon and armor proficiency,
Other Gear amulet of mighty fists +2, headband of inspired wisdom +4, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, bracers of armor +4, ring of protection +3, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +4, 5000.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
Bonus Ki (12x) Add +1/4 to the monk's ki pool.

Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.

Elbow Smash The monk follows up a punch with a strike from his elbow. If the attack hits, the monk can make an additional attack using the same attack bonus as the punch at a -5 penalty. If this second attack hits, it deals damage as normal, but all of the damage is nonlethal. The monk must attack with a fist to use this style strike.

Flying Kick The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick. Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus. This movement is made as part of the monk's f lurry of blows attack and does not require an additional action. At the end of this movement, the monk must make an attack against an adjacent foe. This movement may be between attacks. This movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. The attack made after the movement must be a kick.

Still Mind (Ex) At 4th level, a monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.

Style Strike (Ex) At 5th level, a monk can learn one type of style strike. Whenever he makes a flurry of blows, he can designate one of his unarmed strikes as a style strike. This attack is resolved as normal, but it has an additional effect depending on the type of strike chosen. At 9th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk learns an additional style strike. He must choose which style strike to apply before the attack roll is made. At 15th level, he can designate up to two of his unarmed strikes each round as a style strike, and each one can be a different type. The monk can choose from any of the following strikes.

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