The weakest sides of the Unchained Monk... or is it just my impression?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

I also strongly dislike having a PC with only 2 skill ranks per level (remember, we're adding our FCB to skills instead of ki pool) but that's how the paladin typically plays.

1) 10 + 11 armour + 4 Ironskin + 1 deflection (ring, like the monk) = 26. Paladin 1 has Dex 13 for 27. I mentioned smite AC separately because it is situational, but in that situation it beats the monk. Note that the paladin hasn't taken Dodge (though Paladin 1 qualifies).

2) It matches the paladin against enchantment effects, but not things like Bestow Curse. Also, the paladin is flat immune to fear and charm at this level - and hasn't spent a feat or a trait on increasing its save, just the cloak of resistance. Paladin wins.

Serisan - Good catch, I was comparing to the posted build. Demon-born works for high-wis paladins if you like tieflings.


Yeah, well, we can agree that Monks having on-par saves and AC vis a vis Paladins makes them eligible for the "physically and mentally resistant" type of character everyone here is saying Monks aren't :P

The one thing I don't like about dumping INT is not qualifying for Unsanctioned Knowledge tho.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The only "monkness" it lost was the good will save.

And some of the more permanent abilities turning into ki pool features that you have to waste some of your customization choices or resources on.


Secret Wizard wrote:

I am trying to start a conversation and all I'm getting from you is "bro no" rather than any arguments.

OP mentioned low Will saves. I proved he was wrong because better attribute distribution and more feat leisure on the UnMonk grants you the ability to make up for it.

OP mentioned losing ki powers. I put up a build which had all the thing he wanted save for poison immunity (which, as a high fort class, is not particularly important). The only CRB Monk builds people made GIVE UP high jump, slow fall, etc. so they don't even get to keep the features he wanted. The UnMonk is better at that too.
Sure, Diamond Soul is activated, but that's just better design. Now you are not spell resisting your own healer's cure wounds out of combat.

So unless you want to give me some arguments with your posts, I really have got nothing to add. If you want to keep commenting about my font editing choices like that's what makes me wrong, I, uh, can't help you, buddy.

No what makes you wrong is you've confused the words monk and DPR as assume that because you have an easier time optimizing it that it makes a better monk. What makes a better monk is rather subjective and based on opinion so when you go around saying think like the UnMonk is a better monk rather than saying that it is a better combatant or it suits my personal view of what a monk should be better you are in fact wrong in a way that posting builds has nothing to do with.

What makes me uninterested in actually continuing to read anything you post is because that typing style suggests either you're so sure of your inherent correctness that just have to draw attention to it because it's just so amazingly awesome or you confuse volume with correctness. You're not AM BOARD-POSTER.


VargrBoartusk wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The only "monkness" it lost was the good will save.
And some of the more permanent abilities turning into ki pool features that you have to waste some of your customization choices or resources on.

You can still customize the exact same way, I don't understand how you think that being able to not go that route is a bad thing (considering that the Quinggong is one of the better Archtypes).

While some of the abilities have started to cost Ki, some of them are also far supperior already at the beguinning. Ex: Slow fall is unlimited distance from the start, unlike the Core Monk that have to wait untill level 20. And some other abilities are just improved, Ex: Wholness of Body that adds a 1d8 to the healing, making it a much better at the start.


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VargrBoartusk wrote:
What makes me uninterested in actually continuing to read anything you post is because that typing style suggests either you're so sure of your inherent correctness that just have to draw attention to it because it's just so amazingly awesome or you confuse volume with correctness.

Before you state this, make sure YOU are not this person.


Secret Wizard wrote:
For the same reason wizards are supposed to be knowledgeable and have 2 ranks only.

AKA one of the most common pitfalls of game design/balancing: The idea is that your bonuses (i.e. class features) can/should offset a weakness (or that a weakness should offset a boon). The reality is that you de facto lose that bonus/class feature!

It's not really a problem on a wizard (mostly because at some point more skill ranks have little effect), but other classes suffer a lot.

For example, a fighter's primary class feature is bonus feats. If the fighter needs to spend all his bonus feats on save increases, he's just a barbarian without rage powers. In theory he has a lot of feats, but in reality the number of feats he can actually freely choose isn't really bigger than what other classes have.
Same problem with UnRogue's Debilityting Injury: Disoriented. Made to offset the lack of full BAB and the lack of a to hit-class feature, your to-hit is lower by 0.1 compared to a raging barbarian at levels 4-20 (and by 3 before level 4). That means, for your own to-hit, you are completly reliant on that debuff, yet it does not give you any bonus over what other classes have.

It's not that bad for a UnMonk, but the problem is still there. Unchained should have given monk a straight upgrade, yet the defensive package is more of a sidegrade.
It doesn't matter that UnMonk still has a good overall will save - they shold have the definite best will save of all martials, yet paladins have a good will save plus wisdom and charisma.

That doesn't mean i dislike the UnMonk, quite the contrary - but from both a balancing and a fun-to-play/interesting-class point of view, the two nerfs they snuck in (i.e. extra attack from ki only for unarmed strike and the low(ered) will save), in combination with doing absolutly nothing against the core problem (MADness) means that the class is still partly disappointing.


VargrBoartusk wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

I am trying to start a conversation and all I'm getting from you is "bro no" rather than any arguments.

OP mentioned low Will saves. I proved he was wrong because better attribute distribution and more feat leisure on the UnMonk grants you the ability to make up for it.

OP mentioned losing ki powers. I put up a build which had all the thing he wanted save for poison immunity (which, as a high fort class, is not particularly important). The only CRB Monk builds people made GIVE UP high jump, slow fall, etc. so they don't even get to keep the features he wanted. The UnMonk is better at that too.
Sure, Diamond Soul is activated, but that's just better design. Now you are not spell resisting your own healer's cure wounds out of combat.

So unless you want to give me some arguments with your posts, I really have got nothing to add. If you want to keep commenting about my font editing choices like that's what makes me wrong, I, uh, can't help you, buddy.

No what makes you wrong is you've confused the words monk and DPR as assume that because you have an easier time optimizing it that it makes a better monk. What makes a better monk is rather subjective and based on opinion so when you go around saying think like the UnMonk is a better monk rather than saying that it is a better combatant or it suits my personal view of what a monk should be better you are in fact wrong in a way that posting builds has nothing to do with.

What makes me uninterested in actually continuing to read anything you post is because that typing style suggests either you're so sure of your inherent correctness that just have to draw attention to it because it's just so amazingly awesome or you confuse volume with correctness. You're not AM BOARD-POSTER.

Not a single time have I mentioned DPR. I think you are having a conversation by yourself here.

Quote:
AKA one of the most common pitfalls of game design/balancing: The idea is that your bonuses (i.e. class features) can/should offset a weakness (or that a weakness should offset a boon). The reality is that you de facto lose that bonus/class feature!

But 2 ranks per level is not a problem at all for Wizard/Magus, etc. The only reason why Fighters had been screwed so far was that feats weren't good investments, after WMH I can say they are much more solid.

The design issue would be "Monks have low Will saves and they are meant to have high WIS to compensate, but WIS doesn't do enough for Monks", which is what i call "the Swashbuckler deal".

"The Swashbuckler deal" is related to Charisma. They are encouraged by the game to have high DEX and CHA, but all the while they have terrible FORT and WILL saves.

"Oh!", the game says, "but you got Charmed Life!" But it's an immediate action in a class plagued by swifts and immediates.

So in the end, Swashbucklers are told to have high CHA to compensate for FORT and WILL and it doesn't work out at all.

With UnMonks, it's completely the opposite. The Will increase is organic and beneficial. It's more like Wizard and skill ranks, or Oracles not having that many class skills (but gain skills from a Mystery).

Shadow Lodge

Secret Wizard wrote:
Yeah, well, we can agree that Monks having on-par saves and AC vis a vis Paladins makes them eligible for the "physically and mentally resistant" type of character everyone here is saying Monks aren't :P

The monk isn't on par with the paladin. It has slightly worse resistance (vs non-enchantment effects, fear, and charm) and expends more effort in getting there. If the paladin spends a feat and a trait on its will save like the monk did, it gets +17 (immune to fear and charm) compared to the monk's +12 (+14 vs enchantment).

Secret Wizard wrote:
The one thing I don't like about dumping INT is not qualifying for Unsanctioned Knowledge tho.

Well, I'm not a fan of a frontliner like your UnMonk having only 12 Con. Mechanics aside, what if I want to play a monk who is very tough, not exceedingly insightful or perceptive - but still has strong willpower? This describes my current character, a drunken monk.

I also notice that your build doesn't include combat maneuver feats, something many people like on a monk. You could trade out a bonus feat or two for Improved Maneuver feats, but that's not enough to be really good at maneuvers in the long run. Maybe Iron Will shouldn't be a given?


Not doing enough for the class is only half the problem I discribed. The other half, the one the UnMonk suffers from, is the problem of necessity reducing options. Monks are too dependent on Wis, yet they still need high Str and reasonable high Dex and Con but can't dump Int too much.
Iirc, one of the devs explictly statet in the unchained-thread that they chose will as the bad save (he never stated why monk needs in the first place, though) because most monks already have high wisdom, so you don't feel it that much. What Paizo failed too see is that more mandatory stuff (MADness in this case) equals fewer different ways to build the character - which, in my opinion, is a bad thing.


Weirdo wrote:


The monk isn't on par with the paladin. It has slightly worse resistance (vs non-enchantment effects, fear, and charm) and expends more effort in getting there. If the paladin spends a feat and a trait on its will save like the monk did, it gets +17 (immune to fear and charm) compared to the monk's +12 (+14 vs enchantment).

Well, I'm not a fan of a frontliner like your UnMonk having only 12 Con. Mechanics aside, what if I want to play a monk who is very tough, not exceedingly insightful or perceptive - but still has strong willpower? This describes my current character, a drunken monk.

I also notice that your build doesn't include combat maneuver feats, something many people like on a monk. You could trade out a bonus feat or two for Improved Maneuver feats, but that's not enough to be really good at maneuvers in the long run. Maybe Iron Will shouldn't be a given?

Remember that my build was to respond to OP saying he couldn't build Li Mu Bai. Additionally, let's agree that comparing a Monk with the Paladin is hardly representative of anything. Saying "the Monk has lower Will saves than the Paladin, who gets two stats to Will" seems pretty irrelevant.

And again, I'm sure the Paladin has much better things to do than boost Will with its traits and feats (your build in particular also has 12 CON, requiring Toughness, you need Magical Knack to get good duration on the spells you rely on and you should probably use your other trait to get at the very least Perception as a class skill).

The Monk has high Will saves. The Monk doesn't need more than 12 CON - they get Evasion and very high AC, including touch AC. The Pally has roughly the same, but they get hit by touch attacks and fireballs - and then heal the damage back. The Monk doesn't need to because he doesn't take the damage in the first place. For each class, different needs.

Personally, I build 12 DEX and 14 CON and play defensively early until the lost AC is compensated for.

Your Drunken Monk wouldn't be possible without archetypes. The CRB Monk is not good enough to do that.

Regarding Maneuvers, that IS my criticism to UnMonks. They have no CMB boosters. Their maneuvers have terrible accuracy.
I would have liked them to have a feature that removes the STR bonus to CMD on the targets of their maneuvers.

Derklord wrote:

Not doing enough for the class is only half the problem I discribed. The other half, the one the UnMonk suffers from, is the problem of necessity reducing options. Monks are too dependent on Wis, yet they still need high Str and reasonable high Dex and Con but can't dump Int too much.

Iirc, one of the devs explictly statet in the unchained-thread that they chose will as the bad save (he never stated why monk needs in the first place, though) because most monks already have high wisdom, so you don't feel it that much. What Paizo failed too see is that more mandatory stuff (MADness in this case) equals fewer different ways to build the character - which, in my opinion, is a bad thing.

I agree to an extent.

1. Attribute Distribution (is fine): I think there are three UnMonk distributions:

S16 D12 C14 I10 W15 CH7 - what I run

S16 D14 C12 I10 W15 CH7 - better AC at kickoff

S14 D16 C12 I10 W15 CH7 - finesse

(I never dump INT on my builds unless I play a Rogue or a 6-rank class, btw, I love skills.)

I find the few distributions available to be... pretty common, honestly. For Paladins, you have:

S16 D12 C14 I10 W7 CH15 - +3 Will, 4 skill ranks

S16 D12 C14 I7 W10 CH15 - +5 Will, 2 skill ranks

S15 D12 C14 I14 W7 CH15 - unsanctioned knowledge, 5 skill ranks (my favorite)

S14 D16 C12 I10/7 W7/10 CH15 - divine hunter

So there's not like there's a lot more optimal distributions for Pallies than for Monks.

2. Build variety (is low): In terms of build choices, here's the problem - it's Ascetic Style, Jabbing Style, Dragon Style or the highway. You need the damage those styles give you to be competitive.

But I do think it's super restrictive. I would like to use weapons with Crane Style, for example, but then I can't apply Style Strikes or use extra ki unarmed strieks (because I'd have a crappy enhancement bonus).
So you NEED Ascetic Style to use weapons or fall into irrelevance.

I wish Formless Mastery had been a good, general buff if you had no style feats. That would have made the class stand on its own better.

Something like:

Formless Style (Ki Power): Whenever you roll for initiative, you may spend 1 ki point to enter a flowing combat stance. You gain a +1 bonus to initiative, dodge AC, CMB checks, attack rolls, weapon damage rolls and to saves until the end of combat. At 8th level and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1. You cannot benefit from this ability while using a Style feat.

If they had added something like that, we would still see Jabbing Style or Dragon Style Monks; we'd still see Crane Style Monks with massive AC; we'd still see Ascetic Style Monks tearing it up with 2H weapons...

But we'd not NEED those styles to maintain viability.

3. Combat Maneuvers ability (is terrible): UnMonk seriously wants a CMB boost to maneuvers. Or something that makes them better at using them. Style Strikes help, but they are still wildly inaccurate baseline.

Will saves are fine. They are well-compensated.

Mobility is fine. Flying Kick is great.

The issue with the UnMonk lays in Combat Maneuver mastery and build variety only.

Shadow Lodge

My paladins started with 12 con only because yours did - and Paladin 2 did have 14 Con.

And it's not just paladins. The sorcerer can match the monk's general bonus without much difficulty with Iron Will as a bonus feat (6 base + 1 wis + 3 feat/trait +2 resist = 12). The empyreal sorcerer exceeds the monk even without iron will or a trait (6 base + 6 Wis +2 resist = 14). Combat clerics and druids will probably also exceed the monk with equal feat/trait investment (assuming conservative 16 wis at level 8: 6+3+2+3=14) and those with a casting focus or Guided Hand will, like the empyreal sorcerer, easily exceed the monk.

I can roleplay the drunken part of the monk without archetypes. The stat arrangement for the concept is the issue with the UnMonk, especially since I did want to trip which meant no Iron Will for me (even with a houserule that let me skip Combat Expertise).

Agreed with build variety and maneuvers being significant issues with the UnMonk.


Quote:
And it's not just paladins. The sorcerer can match the monk's general bonus without much difficulty with Iron Will as a bonus feat (6 base + 1 wis + 3 feat/trait +2 resist = 12). The empyreal sorcerer exceeds the monk even without iron will or a trait (6 base + 6 Wis +2 resist = 14). Combat clerics and druids will probably also exceed the monk with equal feat/trait investment (assuming conservative 16 wis at level 8: 6+3+2+3=14) and those with a casting focus or Guided Hand will, like the empyreal sorcerer, easily exceed the monk.

I am sorry that the existence of a single archetype for Sorcerers that effectively loses an arcana and is forced to a single bloodline having higher Will saves ruins the Monk for you.


Secret Wizard: you are not answering my question, in regard of Will being a poor save. In fact, you are not proving the weakness does not exist, but you are proving the issue DOES exist.

If a poor will save was not a weakness... why do we need to workaround it with builds? Why do we need to sacrifice a feat or two to compensate an "inexistent" issue? Why do we need to spend the money in items we don't really want to balance a "non existent" weakness?

I'm not a build freak, because when i play or i GM with my friends we are not doing it for the DPR or alike, we don't look for the most optimized/efficient build there; we play to have fun. So to navigate through dozens of rules to make a build that can compensate a low save is not fun.

In short: If i got twin PCs, i make one a Core Monk and the other an Unchained monk, both have exactly the same ability scores, purchase the same feats, get the same items and monk weapons; because of the flavor of the characters... then the Core Monk ends with a far superior Will save than his brother. Period. Why? Why the decision of the designers was to remove one of the nicest features of a Monk, all the saves are good saves by sacrificing an iconic save of fantasy monks? Monks and Paladins, in regard of combat classes, should be the ones with the most powerful will saves. In fantasy you can make a health weak body, but a weak mind monk?

This does not happen with Core Rogue and Unchained Rogue. You compare both classes and you see that they just added on top of the old class.

Anyway; taking in consideration your answers; i reach to the conclusion the UMonk is really a martial artist, with mystical background, suitable for Jackie Chan, Van Dame or Bruce Lee characters. There are ways to improve their will saves to make them on par with a Core Monk with average will and no will improvements; but a Core Monk willing to have an unbreakable mind will do it against the UMonk with no effort.

I accept your answers about the other part of my question. Poisonable monks do exist in fantasy. So not-toxin-immune monks are a good thing. If they want to survive a poison they need to use their ki for that. I like that now, after being explained.


Well, I see what you mean now by wanting to build an unbreakable mind Monk.

I think that toys like Spiritual Balance do get close to doing that, and I'm just hoping they release more material for the UnMonk that allows to create any type of Monk one wants.

To me, the chassis itself is much more promising than the CRB Monk, and I hope new material arrives to make it fit more concepts.


I just use one of the many "not Monks" that 3PP release.


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Keep in mind that Classic Monk can also benefit from Spiritual Balance.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Keep in mind that Classic Monk can also benefit from Spiritual Balance.

Remember that Classic Monk sucks :P

Scarab Sages

Without commenting on any of the specific builds on this thread, the way I see it is the Unchained Monk focused more on improving Martial ability, because that's what people had been asking for. There was no need to recreate the perfection of mind and body of the Core Monk, because if that's what you want, the Core Monk is still there.

Quinggong was an attempt to patch the Core Monk to give it more options. But keep in mind that as a game design element, the mechanics of it were somewhat broken. You pick up the ability to select new Quinggong powers at levels that you don't have anything to swap out. At one point you pick up new potential powers twice before having a chance to swap anything. Not to mention half the Quinggong powers being Feats that you have to spend Ki on to use every single time you use them, effectively making them not worth choosing. In order to actually make use of Quinggong, you have to swap out many of the same abilities that Unchained Monk loses (or has to choose as Ki Powers). So you start to lose some of what makes the perfection of mind and body aspect anyway.

Yes, it seems counterintuitive for a Monk to have a poor Will save. But from a game design standpoint, they didn't want to create a full BAB class with three good saves. It can be debated whether or not something in the "Unchained" book should have been allowed to break that rule, but they decided they didn't want to do that. So given that one of the saves had to be poor, what were the options? In a more Martial version of the Monk, making Reflex a bad save doesn't make sense. Making Fort a bad save might make more sense conceptually than Will, but it would hurt the build overall more. It is easier for a Monk to compensate for a poor Will save than a poor Fort save, and a poor Fort save would have exacerbated the MAD aspect of the class. You'd either have to boost Con even farther, and/or take Great Fortitude. It's the same dilemma as we have now with the Will save, only the UMonk gets more out of boosting Wis than Con. Ultimately it means UMonk ends up with a lower Will save than Core Monk, but with a significant boost in Martial ability.

I've played the same Monk as both a Core plus Quinggong build and an Unchained build. I switched him at 11th level in PFS when the book came out. I hadn't taken my 11th level feat yet, so I chose Improved Will. I did not change his stats, Feats, or traits. This resulted in my to-hit bonuses being higher across the board, more hitpoints, a limited Pounce, and the ability to ignore DR on one attack per round. What I lost was a net -2 to my Will save, immunity to poisons (though I still have a good Fort save, so it's not a big concern), the ability to move an extra 20' by spending a Ki, Gaseous Form (which I could have kept, but chose to replace with Abundant Step), and, essentially, my 11th level Feat.

As a result of those trade-offs, I no longer get ignored in combat. That's something that would happen often when I boosted my AC into the high 30s or low 40s, but couldn't hit anything.

Shadow Lodge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
And it's not just paladins. The [Arcane] sorcerer can match the monk's general bonus without much difficulty with Iron Will as a bonus feat (6 base + 1 wis + 3 feat/trait +2 resist = 12). The empyreal sorcerer exceeds the monk even without iron will or a trait (6 base + 6 Wis +2 resist = 14). Combat clerics and druids will probably also exceed the monk with equal feat/trait investment (assuming conservative 16 wis at level 8: 6+3+2+3=14) and those with a casting focus or Guided Hand will, like the empyreal sorcerer, easily exceed the monk.
I am sorry that the existence of a single archetype for Sorcerers that effectively loses an arcana and is forced to a single bloodline having higher Will saves ruins the Monk for you.

I have bolded the other six types of characters whose will saves make the Unchained Monk's look disappointing. Hope that helps.

Ferious Thune wrote:
There was no need to recreate the perfection of mind and body of the Core Monk, because if that's what you want, the Core Monk is still there.

"We are fixing some well-recognized problems with the monk class, but sacrificed one of its iconic thematic concepts to do so. If you don't like it, use the unfixed version."

Ferious Thune wrote:
Yes, it seems counterintuitive for a Monk to have a poor Will save. But from a game design standpoint, they didn't want to create a full BAB class with three good saves. It can be debated whether or not something in the "Unchained" book should have been allowed to break that rule, but they decided they didn't want to do that.

And some members of the community think that was a bad decision, and are willing to defend that opinion.


Weirdo wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
And it's not just paladins. The [Arcane] sorcerer can match the monk's general bonus without much difficulty with Iron Will as a bonus feat (6 base + 1 wis + 3 feat/trait +2 resist = 12). The empyreal sorcerer exceeds the monk even without iron will or a trait (6 base + 6 Wis +2 resist = 14). Combat clerics and druids will probably also exceed the monk with equal feat/trait investment (assuming conservative 16 wis at level 8: 6+3+2+3=14) and those with a casting focus or Guided Hand will, like the empyreal sorcerer, easily exceed the monk.
I am sorry that the existence of a single archetype for Sorcerers that effectively loses an arcana and is forced to a single bloodline having higher Will saves ruins the Monk for you.
I have bolded the other six types of characters whose will saves make the Unchained Monk's look disappointing. Hope that helps.

Yes, this game has like, what, 9 class/archetype combinations, right? Being worse than 6 is unacceptable.


Ferious Thune wrote:
But from a game design standpoint, they didn't want to create a full BAB class with three good saves.

And That is the problem. Actually, that state of mind is half the reason for the martial/caster disparity. That "Omg, if we give a martial a something that's a little bit above average without totally crippling him at the same time, he will be totally overpowered!" Dex-to-Damage and Two-Weapon-Fighting, and stuff like Whirlwind Attack suffers from that, too.

For the record, I agree with pretty much your entire post. The thing is, that it makes absolutly zero sense, from both a game design and a balancing point of view, to change the "monk = three good saves" thing. Game design: The whole point of having multiple classes is to have aspects that are above the average. The basic idea of balancing is equity, not equality.
Balancing: Paladin has two good saves plus a bonus to saves. Barbarian can get a scaling bonus to all saves for the measly cost of one rage power. Barbarian's HD12 is (supposedly) offset by not heaving heavy armor proficency. How come a class that can't wear armor at all can't have three good saves?
HD10, full BAB and two good saves is not something that should be special for a martial. In fact, I would make every single martial in the game have those three things (with the two exepctions of Barbarian's HD12 and Monk's three good saves). That should be the upside of not being able to alter reality by waving your hands in the air!

Scarab Sages

I'm not saying they shouldn't have broken that design rule, especially in Unchained, which in part throws out a lot of the assumed design rules. But I think they also wanted it to be a playable class for PFS and figured most Core Monks without archetypes (not counting Quinggong) would instead be Unchained Monks going forward. Creating a full-BAB class with 3 good saves sets the precedent for other classes. Whether that's the reason or not, they decided to keep the class consistent with other Full-BAB classes. Once that decision was made, lowering the Will save was less harmful to the class than lowering one of the other saves would have been. Ultimately, it's a small loss given what was gained, and if you want a strong willed Monk who is immune to Poison, you can still build a Core Monk.

For similar design reasons (6th level caster classes are 3/4 BAB), they took away the Warpriest's pseudo Full-BAB. That was also seen as a very disappointing change to the class.

Basically, despite these features lacking from the classes, they still play fine. For a martial focused Monk, Unchained is a big step up from Core.


I honestly think that the solution to the martial/caster disparity (which isn't a thing until higher levels anyway) is probably rounding down, not rounding up. "Just because it's a martial" shouldn't be a reason to tamper with an otherwise balanced class in terms of encounter viability and balance vis a vis other martials.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

cablop wrote:

I never played the monks to full extent, not in pathfinder. I was just comparing both classes, the Core Monk and the Unchained Monk. At first sight i liked the Unchained Monk, then i was reviewing it... and i started to like it less and less, and finally i don't like it more than the Core Monk. It is not better, maybe easier, but not a better Monk.

Its weakest side is they moved some of the core abilities and made them ki powers, but the ki pool is too limited to really compare those powers with the original abilities that could be used with no limit! In that aspect the Core Monk is more powerful, cause they can use those abilities constantly.

The second weakest aspect is a poor will save. It is the most important aspect of a monk, its willpower! I can even imagine a weak fortitude save, but not a weak will save! This is not a monk thing!

For me, this no longer looks like a monk but a martial artist student. It looks more like a Chuck Norris or Van Dame character than a shaolin monk.

Am i wrong on this one?

I think the biggest issue is that the Unchained Monk is way better for characters like E. Honda or Zangief from Street Fighter than it is at making Bruce Lee type martial artists. It's basically much more Wis dependent than the Core monk due to its reliance on a teensy-tiny ki pool and poor Will save, so if you're using a 20 or even 25 point buy, you're generally better off maxing STR/WIS (particularly if access to something like the agile enchantment isn't something you can reliably expect). This was actually a complaint for the Core Monk as well, but the CM at least had an easier path to DEX reliance.

Unchained Monk definitely has some options that arguably make it superior at combat, but it's much more difficult to judge its comparative value as a total character. I wouldn't say it's worse than the CM on average, but I do think it fails to deliver a particular type of monk that many people want, and unfortunately, that type of monk is your Jet Li, Bruce Lee, Mr. Miyagi, mind-and-speed-over-matter type. UnC Monk is a great "starter class", something with the same difficulty to play as a Fighter, but easier to build and more well-rounded in and out of combat.


ELI5: Why aren't STR/WIS Monk speedy types? Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement represents that.

Bruce Lee wasn't deadly because he was so fast or because he targeted vital points (the whole conceit of Finesse), he was deadly because he combined that speed with concentrated delivery of his tightly-packed strength.

18 DEX on a Monk doesn't mean 18 DEX on a Rogue and so on.


Secret Wizard wrote:

ELI5: Why aren't STR/WIS Monk speedy types? Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement represents that.

Bruce Lee wasn't deadly because he was so fast or because he targeted vital points (the whole conceit of Finesse), he was deadly because he combined that speed with concentrated delivery of his tightly-packed strength.

18 DEX on a Monk doesn't mean 18 DEX on a Rogue and so on.

Actually, if Dex to hit/dam for unarmed existed, he would have it.

Examples of his quickness:
1) Lee could snatch a coin of someone's hand and replace it with another coin before they could close their fist.

2) He could throw grains of rice in the air and catch them with chopsticks.

He began his martial arts career with Wing Chun, an art that emphasizes speed

Scarab Sages

What permanent abilities got moved into Ki Powers that makes the Monk appreciably worse? I can spot:

Diamond Body - So this goes from immune to poisons and becomes spend a Ki for Neutralize poison. A definite downgrade in the ability, but it was a situational ability anyway. Still, this is the biggest loss that I can see, as it makes the Monk much less likely to just run into a Stinking Cloud.

High Jump - This still functions all the time if taken. It looks to be identical to the old High Jump ability. It's just optional now.

Slow Fall - This is a highly situational ability. Having to spend a Ki instead of having it always on isn't really a big issue. It would be nice if they had called out in the ability that it can be activated as an immediate action. That's highly implied by the way it's written, and the comparison to Feather Fall means most GMs should probably allow it to work that way.

Wholeness of Body - This got a boost, as it's now 1d8+Monk Level instead of just Monk Level for the same Ki cost.

Abundant Step - Works the same, and it can be taken earlier.

Diamond Soul - This one got a big downgrade. I won't argue there. Definitely less situational from the other abilities, so adding a Ki cost and a limited duration is a definite downgrade. Was anyone really designing their build around getting SR at 13th level? I don't know. Haven't played a Monk above 11th yet.

Quivering Palm - They added a steep cost to this one, but since you can only have one active at a time anyway, it's not too bad of a nerf. Again, not sure how many people were building around this high level ability.

They moved spending a Ki for +4 AC into Ki Powers. I use that one a lot, so I went ahead and picked it up. They moved spending a Ki for 20' extra move to be a Ki Power. I used to use it situationally, but since I'm already working with a 70' speed, I decided I could afford to lose it in order to hold onto Feather Step from my Quinggong powers.

What else did I miss?

To me, nothing on that list feels like a huge loss. Either Slow Fall or High Jump were likely to get swapped for Barkskin before, anyway. Wholeness of Body would almost certainly get swapped for a Quinggong power.

In exchange, UMonk gets Style Strikes as a once per round unlimited ability, which to me better represent Jet Li, Bruce Lee, or Mr. Miagi. When I think of them, I don't think "Immune to poison." I think "Sweep the leg" (Leg Sweep), breaking concrete slabs, bricks, and boards (Shattering Strike), and "if done right, no can defend" (Spin Kick, or possibly One Touch), and I think of the various style feats that already exist.

I'm not sure how it's harder to build a Dex Monk using Unchained, either. Because you have an incentive to invest more in Wisdom? I'm not following that line of thought, so some elaboration would help. It seems to me Weapon Finesse and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists work just as well for either version of the class. The absence of a general (non magic item) path to Dex to Damage for more than just a few weapons is larger than just the Monk.

Shadow Lodge

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Ferious Thune wrote:
Creating a full-BAB class with 3 good saves sets the precedent for other classes.

The monk was already unique in being the only class to have all three good saves (what with the physical and mental balance/perfection thing). That didn't set any precedent for other class design. The choice was to make the UnMonk fit the standard class design rather than making it fit what we had come to expect from the Monk.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Yes, this game has like, what, 9 class/archetype combinations, right? Being worse than 6 is unacceptable.

Way to move the goalposts. "Paladins don't count, they get a special will save bonus." "The empyreal sorcerer is also weird." "Six examples (7 including the empyreal sorcerer) isn't enough."

Let me break it down into generalities.

  • Clerics, druids, and empyreal sorcerers represent characters with good base will saves and good wisdom. This also includes Shamans, Inquisitors, Spiritualists, Psychics with Wis disciplines and maybe Warpriests (I'd stat them similarly to a combat cleric; I know some recommend a lower Wis). These are better than the monk, sometimes a lot better.

  • The Paladin is joined by the Mesmerist in the Cha-to-Will camp. There might also be archetypes I'm unaware of that grant significant Will bonuses to classes with a good base Will but not a ton of Wisdom. These guys are at least on par with the monk, possibly significantly better.

  • The non-empyreal sorcerer represents characters with good base Will saves that can also afford a decent Wis (usually because they're SAD casters). Wizards, Witches, casting Oracles, Summoners, and some Arcanists, Cha-based Psychics, maybe Mediums, and Warpriests that skimp on Wis. These guys are about on par with the monk.

  • The monk only has a real advantage in Will saves when compared to other classes with poor Will saves, or characters with good Will saves that dump Wis with no mitigating factors. That is, fighters, rogues, barbarians (before superstition shenanigans), other martials, spoony bards, and narrowly gunslingers, rangers and hunters (which likely have a slightly lower Wis than the monk).

My issue is that the monk really should be in the first group - the one that contains spiritually minded characters some of which are also combat capable. A monk build that skimps a bit on Wis in favour of more combat focus (like my Con-heavy drunken monk) should have similar willpower to a cleric or druid who makes the same decision. A monk who has a truly exceptional Wisdom like the build you posted should have comparable willpower to a casting cleric or druid.

Instead, the monk ends up with not a low save, but a decidedly average one - one better than most martials to be sure, but competing with mages rather than the priests and holy warriors who, like the monk, value contemplation and strength of spirit.


Disagree. The Will save stays strong in real builds. No Druid is going to get Iron Will. No Inquisitor, Shaman, Psychic or Warpriest is either - they all have requirements for feat/trait progression that make it a suboptimal choice to do so.

In actual game balance, the Monk retains a competitive to high Will save (on par with all of them), not just because they CAN, but because they have extra feats/traits to invest in that.

The goalposts were moved the moment other classes were mentioned. The first question was that Monks had bad will saves.

I said they didn't, and showed how the natural progression had them boost those saves quite well into the good save territory.

The goal of the Monk is not to beat everyone at everything.

It is balance itself.

Good saves all around (easily gotten naturally) that are well on par with each other, good AC without sacrificing speed, etc.

This theoretical game in which a +18 Will save at level 8 is the goalpost is a silly exercise that benefits anyone.

In an actual game, the Monk is passing the saves.

If you care about the character sheet aesthetic of massive numbers, that's something else you are playing.

To me, LEVEL*1.5 on a save means it's a great save that makes my character protected against those effects statistically. Anything else is just cold theorycrafting.

In any case, to me the Monk should be among the High Will, No Wisdom Stacking category... +2 from Still Mind/Spiritual Balance and then Flawless Mind, putting them just above them.

This seems fair for a class that has otherwise excellent defenses.


A UMonk has a bad(poor) will save (progression). Now are their will saves bad? they don't have to be.
Problem is both are termed as bad will save. I think there's just talking past each other on this issue because of using different meaning.


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I didn't know Iron will gave a +6 bonus.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
I didn't know Iron will gave a +6 bonus.

+2 from Iron Will and +1 from Indomitable Faith, because Monks need few feats to be good at their job. Higher WIS due to lower CON requirements than other classes - thanks to high AC and Improved Evasion - you are free to put more points into WIS too. This is the gist of the matter.


Lower con requirements? How low are we talking? like lower than 14? I wouldn't go sub-14 on a martial. Also are you seriously counting traits like nobody else has access to them?

Liberty's Edge

SecWiz's example from elsewhere in the thread has Con 12. My usual 20 pt build has Con 13. With FCB going into hit points, Toughness (since SW's argument features "monks have a bunch of spare feats" as a key component), or both, you ca be just fine with a sub-14 Con.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Lower con requirements? How low are we talking? like lower than 14? I wouldn't go sub-14 on a martial. Also are you seriously counting traits like nobody else has access to them?

If your normal monks too 14 con UMonks get same HP with 12 Con, lower con needs.

He's saying that UMonk needs no special traits to help it work so it's free to take will trait while Monk needs the traits that boost it's unarmed attacks.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Lower con requirements? How low are we talking? like lower than 14? I wouldn't go sub-14 on a martial. Also are you seriously counting traits like nobody else has access to them?

If your normal monks too 14 con UMonks get same HP with 12 Con, lower con needs.

He's saying that UMonk needs no special traits to help it work so it's free to take will trait while Monk needs the traits that boost it's unarmed attacks.

I would keep that 14 con since the only reason I dont run 16 con on a normal monk is because of PB issues. You want more HP, not the same amount.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Lower con requirements? How low are we talking? like lower than 14? I wouldn't go sub-14 on a martial. Also are you seriously counting traits like nobody else has access to them?

If your normal monks too 14 con UMonks get same HP with 12 Con, lower con needs.

He's saying that UMonk needs no special traits to help it work so it's free to take will trait while Monk needs the traits that boost it's unarmed attacks.

I would keep that 14 con since the only reason I dont run 16 con on a normal monk is because of PB issues. You want more HP, not the same amount.

Oh I would as well, I'm just explaining why he can say it has lower con requirements. Which is true to the Monk, if a 14 was passable for Monk because PB then a 12 is passable if you need to free up the PB points.

Shadow Lodge

Secret Wizard wrote:
+2 from Iron Will and +1 from Indomitable Faith, because Monks need few feats to be good at their job. Higher WIS due to lower CON requirements than other classes - thanks to high AC and Improved Evasion - you are free to put more points into WIS too. This is the gist of the matter.

1) Monks are frequently built with style feat chains and combat maneuvers, both of which can be quite feat intensive. Any they may want traits for things like extra class skills (my favourite thing to do with traits). I don't agree it's fair to assume that the monk's will save is fine because you'll spend extra resources to increase it.

2) Monks may have high AC, but Paladins and Barbarians have Lay on Hands and DR respectively (and both can be built with a very good AC). Con requirements are about even.

Secret Wizard wrote:
This theoretical game in which a +18 Will save at level 8 is the goalpost is a silly exercise that benefits anyone.

I never asked for a +18 at level 8. I asked for a monk that can match a cleric or inquisitor that has made similar stat and feat choices.


Rub-Eta wrote:
VargrBoartusk wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The only "monkness" it lost was the good will save.
And some of the more permanent abilities turning into ki pool features that you have to waste some of your customization choices or resources on.
I don't understand how you think that being able to not go that route is a bad thing (considering that the Quinggong is one of the better Archtypes).

Which is good since I never said anything of the sort. All I said was that to many people the UnMonk was not in fact a better monk largely because the monk is one of the more polarizing classees as to what people want from it. Honestly I like the UnMonk. In fact given my preferred playstyle I'd take levels in it over the old monk any day of the week. This however in no way makes it a better monk. It doesn't feel very 'monkish' to me for several reasons, largely because it switched its role from skirmisher to front liner but to be fair I also don't associate class names with any sort of preconceived social role. Monk was the name of the collection of abilities it offered me to build characters with and not a reflection that it grew up learning anything in a monastery.

Liberty's Edge

Weirdo wrote:
I never asked for a +18 at level 8. I asked for a monk that can match a cleric or inquisitor that has made similar stat and feat choices.

That's disingenuous, though. The class chassis are different, and reward resource expenditure differently. A martial cleric or an inquisitor is far less likely to prioritize Wisdom to the extent that an Unchained monk will. What's your starting Wisdom for a typical inquisitor? How high would you expect it to be by 10th level? Because I bet you're looking at 3-5 points lower than where I'd want a U!monk to be at the same levels, with the consonant effects on Will saves as well.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Not a single time have I mentioned DPR. I think you are having a conversation by yourself here.\

Oh ?

Secret Wizard wrote:


I find this to be incorrect. The Monk has s$&# ass accuracy and you are spending ki points to get extra attacks to hit some day. The UnMonk hits more reliably, and thus spends less ki on extra ki attacks.

Accuracy corresponds to ability to deal damage which is DPR

Secret Wizard wrote:


STR-based Ascetic Style 2H Unchained Monk is the highest damage + mobility out there, second only to the likes of Magus. Plus, you can rock a 20 + level AC without much issue.

More DPR

Secret Wizard wrote:


Just for the record, I'm trying to see if I can make a Sohei that can have as high damage, Will save or AC as the character listed above and I'm failing to do that.
Secret Wizard wrote:


Unchained Monk ("low will saves" and so on). The only way to disprove them is actual build comparison. People are keen to forget how much better is the UnMonk in fulfilling the Monk fantasy of mobility, good damage and good resiliency.

1. I didn't miscalculate anything. +8 BAB +5 STR +2 enhancement +1 weapon focus = +16. I could make a really snarky comment about something like "it's not my fault that you can't see how blah blah blah" but I'm a really swell guy and above that kind of unnecessary jabs. PS: Clearly I'm not ;P

2. You never qualify for Weapon Specialization. Am I missing something? You don't actually have an effective Fighter level.

3. UnMonk doesn't have Weapon Training but it has scaling unarmed dice and access to Ascetic Style. Once I'm level, say, 9, I can pick up Ascetic Strike and a Monk's Robe and turn my 1d8 dice to 1d10. Not something I would personally do, but yannow, stuff scales with level. By level 12 I'm dealing 2d6 damage with my weapon.

4. Your damage plummets without Flurry. My guy, on the other hand, has Flying Kick. That's an non quantitative bonus you cannot ever compensate for.

End result, you are not dealing more damage, just have a bigger critical hit rate... and to top it off, your defense will be much worse.

Here your're building to match DPR rather then showing just how much higher your Will save would be if you maxed it out as a core monk but I digress...

Secret Wizard wrote:


Your damage is only ahead at 8th level.

Earlier, before you have Weapon Training, my guy is ahead.

Later, after the likes of Ascetic Strike, Monk's Robe and the new +full BAB attack on Flurry, my damage is head.

I think we just compared both of our builds at the point where yours is stronger and I think mine still comes up winning.

Maybe your Will saves might outgrow mine, but I have more reasons to get Headbands of Wisdom whereas your Chain Shirt dependency makes you adverse to it.

How it not being as needed for AC makes a wisdom rock take on an actual Adversarial role I've yet to figure out.

But basically.. Yeah.. You mentioned DPR a lot. Granted many times it was in ways like 'Look at all the things you have to give up to match my DPR which lets me have better this stuff.' But I suppose I probably should have offensive potential over DPR. Basically everything you can do to get a better will save on the UnMonk minus 1 UnMonk ability the core monk can do to so Monks having better saves is not a myth it's a fact. Now if the core monk invests in this it's damage is probably dropping so it seems to me you seem to be saying the UnMonk is a better monk because it can more consistently deal damage. I agree that the UnMonk is a better combatant I just don't think that everyone does nor should feel it makes it a better monk.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
I didn't know Iron will gave a +6 bonus.
+2 from Iron Will and +1 from Indomitable Faith, because Monks need few feats to be good at their job. Higher WIS due to lower CON requirements than other classes - thanks to high AC and Improved Evasion - you are free to put more points into WIS too. This is the gist of the matter.

That's poor class design. You are saying that in order to be what the class should be you need spend a feat, trait and build you stats a particular way. If you have to do this it seem to me that is poor class design. You are right every umonk will be taking iron will and indomitable faith to make for this loss of good save. At that point shouldn't it just be a class feature?

Scarab Sages

voska66 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
I didn't know Iron will gave a +6 bonus.
+2 from Iron Will and +1 from Indomitable Faith, because Monks need few feats to be good at their job. Higher WIS due to lower CON requirements than other classes - thanks to high AC and Improved Evasion - you are free to put more points into WIS too. This is the gist of the matter.
That's poor class design. You are saying that in order to be what the class should be you need spend a feat, trait and build you stats a particular way. If you have to do this it seem to me that is poor class design. You are right every umonk will be taking iron will and indomitable faith to make for this loss of good save. At that point shouldn't it just be a class feature?

My umonk didn't take Iron Will and won't be taking it. Of course, he is a Dwarf, and has a racial +2 against spells. If I take any save boosting feat it will be Steel Soul.


Secret Wizard wrote:

It's a better Monk.

1. I find this to be incorrect. The Monk has s*@* ass accuracy and you are spending ki points to get extra attacks to hit some day. The UnMonk hits more reliably, and thus spends less ki on extra ki attacks. The Core Monk doesn't even have that many abilities that I would want as Ki Powers. I'd prefer Elemental Fury and so on. Plus, constant Spell Resistance isn't better than Spell Resistance that you can turn on.

2. The "UnMonk has a weak will save" thing is a myth. Core Monk needs a 16 on Constitution to be on pair with as 12 CON UnMonk. Those points that the Core Monk was spending on CON are now spend on WIS on the UnMonk, allowing you for a higher base WIS, which means higher AC and higher ki points and higher Will saves.

Plus, the UnMonk is not feat starved, so you can always get Iron Will. Still Mind is also a good way to fix it.

The ONLY time that a Core Monk would have higher Will saves is HIGH END games... and then the UnMonk has Flawless Mind.

The Core Monk is dead.

Difference between low and high Will save progression...

Level 1: 2 points
Level 4: 3 points
Level 8: 4 points
Level 12: 4 points
Level 16: 5 points
Level 20: 6 points

Yep, a myth that ONLY happens at endgame levels. Suuuuure.

Scarab Sages

Level 1 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point in umonks favor
Level 4 with Iron Will + trait: break even
Level 8 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 12 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 16 with Iron Will + trait: 2 points
Level 20 with Iron Will + trait: 4 points, But Umonk gets to roll twice.

This also isn't counting that the umonk will likely have a higher wisdom than a core monk.

Yes, you have to build differently to compensate for the poor save progression. In practice, this is non-issue.


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Imbicatus wrote:


Level 1 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point in umonks favor
Level 4 with Iron Will + trait: break even
Level 8 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 12 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 16 with Iron Will + trait: 2 points
Level 20 with Iron Will + trait: 4 points, But Umonk gets to roll twice.

This also isn't counting that the umonk will likely have a higher wisdom than a core monk.

Yes, you have to build differently to compensate for the poor save progression. In practice, this is non-issue.

I would say that a non-human having no feats until level 3 and losing half of their traits is an "issue".

Scarab Sages

Snowblind wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:


Level 1 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point in umonks favor
Level 4 with Iron Will + trait: break even
Level 8 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 12 with Iron Will + trait: 1 point
Level 16 with Iron Will + trait: 2 points
Level 20 with Iron Will + trait: 4 points, But Umonk gets to roll twice.

This also isn't counting that the umonk will likely have a higher wisdom than a core monk.

Yes, you have to build differently to compensate for the poor save progression. In practice, this is non-issue.

I would say that a non-human having no feats until level 3 and losing half of their traits is an "issue".

Unchained monks gain bonus feats at 1st and 2nd levels. They hardly have no feats until level 3.

Shadow Lodge

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I agree that assuming the feat and trait is an issue. I like using my traits to add extra class skills or other fun stuff, not to patch up basic weaknesses (and I've played games where you get just one trait). I want to have feats available for combat maneuvers or styles.

The bonus feats on UnMonks are extremely limited and don't support non-grapple maneuvers until level 6. Iron Will isn't even on the list.

Shisumo wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
I never asked for a +18 at level 8. I asked for a monk that can match a cleric or inquisitor that has made similar stat and feat choices.
That's disingenuous, though. The class chassis are different, and reward resource expenditure differently. A martial cleric or an inquisitor is far less likely to prioritize Wisdom to the extent that an Unchained monk will. What's your starting Wisdom for a typical inquisitor? How high would you expect it to be by 10th level? Because I bet you're looking at 3-5 points lower than where I'd want a U!monk to be at the same levels, with the consonant effects on Will saves as well.

My Inquisitor a few games back had a starting Wis of 15-17 (can't quite recall) using rolled stats with about 30pb equivalent. This looks to be in line with Bodhi's Inquisitor guide which recommends a 15-16 Wis for most Inquisitors with 20-25pb.

My druid in my first PF game started with something like Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 12 (again, rolled with pb value ~30).

My current (unchained) monk started with Wis 14, using rolled stats of at least 30pb equivalent.

Liberty's Edge

The only two stats a U!monk needs are Str and Wis, and they should both be as high as you can possibly manage at all times. 16s are as low as I would ever start a PC, and 17s or 18s would be better still.

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