My wife still hasn't gotten the hang of Pathfinder, and she hasn't played Ocarina of Time all the way through - both Pathfinder and Zelda are methods of entertainment that I hold close to my heart. As such, I've been thinking about running a solo campaign with just her as the legendary hero from the game. This way, we can work at a slow pace to familiarize her (and me, surely) with the rules.
Since there are 20 potential Hearts to have in the game and 20 levels to a character (typically) I figured each Heart Container would level her up instead of gaining experience.
I realize there cannot be a complete and true conversion of OoT to Pathfinder - it would simply be too time consuming for it to be practical. However, I feel like there is a way to execute this idea of a Zelda campaign within the Pathfinder rules.
Any and all advice or tips on how to design the dungeons and traps will be appreciated because I don't have any idea how to do those as of yet. If I need to move this to another thread, I will gladly do so because I don't know where this topic/question would fit appropriately.
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Having run a number of Zelda-inspired combat encounters, I'm very excited for you.
A brief note on building the character - Paladin is a great mechanical chassis for the Legendary Hero's powers. The special items aren't difficult to build, either. For example, the Hookshot could utilize Force Hook Charge.
Zelda-style dungeon exploration in a tabletop system might work better if you approach it as more similar to the top-down games; a lot of the puzzles from the 3D games would be more difficult to work in.
If you're dead-set on trying to port actual OoT-inspired dungeons, make use of skill challenges. When you enter the dungeon, give her the full map of the floor she's on and describe the main room. Traversing the rooms of the dungeon is only interesting if there's actually something to do (like a skill challenge to jump across platforms or avoid lava or what have you). Otherwise, just let her pick where she wants to go and skip to the point of interest.
The trapped rooms are easy. "You walk into the room. As the door closes behind you, hidden bars lock into place, trapping you into the room. Suddenly, (enemies) appear." Combat as normal.
Combat encounter design for a successful Zelda-style game is different than for a typical Pathfinder campaign. I like treating each combat as a sub-game of sorts. Sometimes there are platforms above pools of water, and enemies jump between platforms. Other times enemies are intended to be used against each other. Lure the Iron Knuckle into the path of the Beamos beam to stun it, or something like that.
If you want to try dungeon-spanning puzzles, have three or four pieces to the puzzle (levers, collectables, challenges to defeat) scattered around the dungeon. Rooms that don't make progress on the puzzle should contain some item of use or other interesting feature. The key to pulling off the Zelda dungeons is novelty; running around the Forest Temple is fun on the N64, but in a tabletop setting it can be pretty dull walking back and forth through featureless rooms.
One of the best design features of the Zelda dungeons is that each dungeon introduces a new item to use about half-way through. The item is key to beating the rest of the dungeon, but will also be incorporated into the design of future dungeons, even if it's just one or two challenges. So if you're feeling stuck on designing a dungeon, figure out what kind of new item you can introduce to expand your design space and mic up the mechanics, or figure out how to use items the player should already have in new and interesting ways.
"Lure the Iron Knuckle into the path of the Beamos beam to stun it, or something like that."
Oh, that idea is brilliant! I'll have to come up with some other clever mechanics for the various dungeons, sub-dungeons, and temples.
As far as character build, I'm giving her free reign to choose a class, and in fact gave her a brief description of "the hero as that class." Fighter, for instance, goes like this: "She trains every day so that she can protect her friends. When the Great Deku Tree summons her to begin a quest of epic proportions, her years of training are put to the test." All Core and Base classes are available to her, and if she feels like multi-classing, I'll allow it. Right now, though, she's leaning toward Fighter or Sorcerer.
I'll take a look at the top-down games for puzzles; that's nifty too.
One thing I haven't decided on is death: should I end the game if she dies, or respawn at the dungeon/temple entrance or last entrance to an area?
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and dont run the Water Temple if you want to remain married after all is said and done.
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The first and most important question you're going to have to ask yourself is, "Is this fun, for both of us?" If you find perma-death to be more fun, then go for it.
Some elements that you shouldn't forget to include are the Goddesses' spells (Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind). You can use Farore's Wind as a sort of respawn or get-out-of-death-free card if you need to justify it. Nayru's Love could, instead of being a temporary spell, function as plot-armor that protects the hero from dying immediately when they inevitably fall into lava during the Fire Temple.
The Water Temple should be fine as long as you re-work it extensively instead of recreating the Ocarina of Time dungeon.
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As someone who has literally been planning to run a Zelda campaign for years, here's a few Links you might find useful.
Legend of Zelda: An RPG to the Past. This is a Pathfinder conversion done by someone called Bucketfox on Obsidian Portal. Excellent conversion including a bestiary, races, equipment, and some info on how most of the pre-ACG classes fit into the setting. Probably the most useful site I've found for running Zelda in Pathfinder.
The Book of Mudora. An older conversion for 3.5. Not as useful as the previous site, and not completed, it nonetheless has some good ideas. If nothing else, it has a decent sized bestiary that could add in some similar enemies with a different CR.
Cult of Da'Vane The Legend of Zelda Roleplaying Game. The first complete d20 conversion that I know of, a lot of work was put into this one. It also hails from the 3.5 days, and is pretty much a stand alone game, having its own set of races, classes, and a reworked magic system. I've skimmed it many times but never took the leap to try and run it. It seems decent, but as I said, its kind of its own game. Da'Vane had started a Pathfinder conversion, and put out a pdf with some race conversions, but apparently was issued a C&D order by Nintendo and took the site down.
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As someone who has literally been planning to run a Zelda campaign for years, here's a few Links you might find useful.
You are a hero.
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Your wife plays pathfinder with you?? Lucky!!
Well, it's actually been a bit difficult to have her play. I'm running the Skull and Shackles AP , and she's one of the players. Unfortunately, she doesn't really RP as much and she isn't active in the sessions. This is why I want to have a solo campaign with her so that she can learn different facets of the Pathfinder rules.
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Your wife plays pathfinder with you?? Lucky!!
I know that I am, at least! I love playing these games with my wife! :D
Captain Zimiri: having a one-on-one campaign is a pretty good idea. It could help her get into roleplaying better, and teach her some of the basic ideas.
One thing to keep in mind, though, above all, is what The Dread Pirate Hurley said, like, right up there:
The first and most important question you're going to have to ask yourself is, "Is this fun, for both of us?" If you find perma-death to be more fun, then go for it.
This concept cannot be undersold in a solo game. If she's not riveted, it's not happening.
Also, be aware, that it will very, very likely be a phenomenally different set of experiences - especially with pacing and side-story interaction - and that engaging in various kinds of role play devices normally unavailable in larger games is also a very solid idea.
For example, romance can be a really awesome thing in such games (no, Internet, I'm not referring to that kind of RP; gutter: mind out-of, etc.*), as can taking the time to build really strong character bonds and emotions with others.
In general, in a solo game, you'll want to vary the difficulty level. It's not as simple as just choosing a lower CR because you've only got one player - some creatures will devastate more powerful but lone players that are push-overs for even lower-leveled groups. Keep that sort of thing in mind when designing things.
(This sort of advice may well be in Ivan's links - I've not yet had the chance to read them, though I look forward to doing so: it sounds awesome!)
Also recall: there's really nothing wrong with giving your wife some assistance. Recall, even in Link's adventures - which are almost entirely solo! - he had lots of help, ranging from fairies restoring his life (heal-bot, hoooooooo~!) to Rito-or-Koroks (allowing him to fly short distances)**, to Epona (and her ranch handlers) to Midna (actively going through each dungeon with him) to even Navi (Aid Another checks: ahoy!). All of these things can enliven the experience, and allow your wife to constantly have someone to talk to or chat with or otherwise have fun with beyond a simple number grind... always important for solo experiences, I've found.
(None of this has been for LoZ-style play, but for Solo play, so do take that in mind, too.)
Here's hoping we here a good report! :D
* That said, should that be a thing that you and your wife enjoy, feel free. Generally speaking, married couples in healthy relationships are awesome and should enjoy exactly what they enjoy! :)
** I might be mis-remembering this. It's... been a while.
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After thinking about it some more, and conversing with my wife, I've decided not to run a campaign for her that is based on Ocarina of Time. However, so as not to waste all the valuable information provided by you wonderful people - and to keep in theme with Zelda - I will be creating our own plot and story for her to play. I already have some ideas of what might be going on, in Hyrule at least:
- There is a plot to overthrow the king of Hyrule and turn the kingdom into a democracy. While this may prove to be progressive and a good idea, the men and women behind the plot want the democracy to execute their nefarious deeds.
- A sacred gem – one that was created to make the harsh environment somewhat sustainable for the outcast thief women – has been stolen from the Gerudo desert. If the gem is not returned and replaced, the people living in the desert may find their homes destroyed and their lives at the hands of fate once more
- Kakariko Village has become a literal ghost town as its denizens have been chased away or captured by the horrific creatures that have risen from the graveyard. Survivors speculate that the event may have something to do with the cursed house within the village.
- The guardians of Kokiri Forest – the deku scrubs, babas, and various other creatures – have attacked the Kokiri, despite the Deku Tree being as tall and health as its forebear. Something dark and mysterious is happening within the forest, and some believe it is coming from the Lost Woods.
- All contact with the Gorons on Death Mountain has been lost. Their portals have been shut and no one is admitted into their tunnels. Is there a power struggle between the normally docile stone-eaters, ever since their leader disappeared?
I actually intend to include several other lands within this campaign, other than Hyrule - Termina, Labrynna, and Holodrum, to mention three.
Do you have one or two friends who can play occasionally? I have done the one-on-one game in two campaigns in the past: one as a kid with a friend who lived further away from everyone else, and one years later with my daughter. We had our fun, but it feels lacking compared to the dynamics of a group. I suggest trying out the on-on-one but also making some serious inquiries to wrangle some extra players in.
Hmmm... you'll want to decide which generation of Link this story follows. Obviously it's after OoT link, but is it a continuation of that same story, before he goes to Termina for MM? Or is it a later Link than that one, perhaps the very next hero in the chain? It'll matter when deciding your hero's story, and both are possible. If you do make it the same Link, for the love of Nayru, figure out a good reason for why he traveled to Termina (multiple times it seems like) and ended up dying on the way there. It's bugged us all for far too long.
Next up, you'll need to decide your companion. Navy has left by the end of OoT, and Tattle hasn't shown up yet. So you'll need your own fairy, or another creature, to accompany her. It might be an opportunity to create a companion capable of assisting in the campaign as a GMPC, though not as competent as the Hero of Time of course.
I like the plot points and think it sounds like a lot of fun. ^-^
I think he's not actually going to have her play as Link.
Instead, it's inspired by the OoT-timeline, and thus it really doesn't matter when/if Link heads off to Termina - in fact, I'd suggest that whatever happens probably takes place after Link's adventures and is part of the lead-up into Twilight Princess (based on my understanding of the whole Timeline-thing, which, honestly, is a tad bit of a mess, much as I love it, so).
In fact, it's quite possible that these adventures are exactly what eventually diverges time once again: probably even an "in-between" Timeline, halfway between Wind Waker and A Link to The Past.
This would lead to a ton of potential adventures, possibly allow the use of the Twili, and reference the gem-artifact that was, in part, responsible for the disaster that led to Wind Waker: the very gem that could give Gerudo life once again. This also leads up to the seven daughters - a strong female-empowerment kind of thing, referencing the seven female descendants of the seven sages.
Do you have one or two friends who can play occasionally? I have done the one-on-one game in two campaigns in the past: one as a kid with a friend who lived further away from everyone else, and one years later with my daughter. We had our fun, but it feels lacking compared to the dynamics of a group. I suggest trying out the on-on-one but also making some serious inquiries to wrangle some extra players in.
I would like to suggest that neither of those hold the genuine benefits that can be found in a one-on-one game, nor are representative of all one-on-one games (though that certainly doesn't discount those being your experiences).
In both cases, you've been dealing with children, and children's games (and stories) are different by default - you can't ever tell as deep or compelling stories as you could otherwise... not because children can't handle mature concepts, but because those mature concepts have to be handled in different ways from how adults approach them.
The only thing similar between our one-on-one experiences and your own is the fact that they play differently than in groups (but how they differ definitely diverges from your own stated experience).
Love the basic ideas. Probably more, later.
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Do you have one or two friends who can play occasionally? ... I suggest trying out the on-on-one but also making some serious inquiries to wrangle some extra players in.
The nature of this campaign is mentioned in my first post:
My wife still hasn't gotten the hang of Pathfinder, and she hasn't played Ocarina of Time all the way through - both Pathfinder and Zelda are methods of entertainment that I hold close to my heart. As such, I've been thinking about running a solo campaign with just her as the legendary hero from the game. This way, we can work at a slow pace to familiarize her (and me, surely) with the rules.
Even though she's already in two campaigns that I'm running - Skull and Shackles AP that is currently in book 4, and Carrion Crown AP that hasn't started yet - she still has a difficult time grasping the rules and pace of a session. For this reason, I want to play with her only and help her learn how to play the game that comes so naturally to me.
As far as the campaign setting goes, I initially intended to have her play as her own reincarnation of Link and progress through the story of OoT. But after thinking about it some more and talking with her, I've decided to generate my own story line within the lands of Hyrule, Termina, Holodrum, and Labrynna. Layers of plots will exist within the campaign setting and generally wait for her to encounter them. There may be an overarching plot, but until an opportunity presents itself, we'll just play to have fun.
Thank you, by the way, for all the comments and ideas. Each of you has presented something I hadn't considered or seen before, and they all will help this experience for my wife be amazing.
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Pathfinder is intended to be played with a team that together cover a variety of abilities. Also, if one player has a string of bad luck, there are other characters there to help out. In order to mitigate how much GM work it takes to cater everything to that, I suggest that the player have a character with diverse abilities: combat, magic, and skills. Maybe a bard, investigator, inquisitor, or a gestalt character.
Of course, you can make any class work, but as some classes are more one-sided compared to others (the wizards and fighters of the world), you would need to make the campaign accordingly one-sided or introduce GM boons or some sort to fill in the gaps. Link probably had superb ability scores across the board, but his talents were mostly his flawless agility, great endurance, and hitting things with weapons. Probably a fighter. But, Link also had an arsenal of high-level magic items. Such items would be an example of the boons.
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Having considered the problem of overland exploration, turning the overworld into a hexploration game could be fun. It would allow you to seed the world with various thematic encounters (think Stalchild attacks or the peahats from OoT, or the Takkuri bird from Majora's Mask), adding some spice to the rest of the world between dungeons.
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unrelated, but could you post your wifes S&S build? Maybe she is having trouble because she doesn't know how to use it effectively. This is even more likley if you built her character for her.
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Having considered the problem of overland exploration, turning the overworld into a hexploration game could be fun. It would allow you to seed the world with various thematic encounters (think Stalchild attacks or the peahats from OoT, or the Takkuri bird from Majora's Mask), adding some spice to the rest of the world between dungeons.
Interesting... What do you mean?
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First: I stand totally corrected. She's legit the Legendary Hero, at least as of the OP. I guess when you decided against playing the actual OoT, I just somehow presumed differently.
Whoops!
Having considered the problem of overland exploration, turning the overworld into a hexploration game could be fun. It would allow you to seed the world with various thematic encounters (think Stalchild attacks or the peahats from OoT, or the Takkuri bird from Majora's Mask), adding some spice to the rest of the world between dungeons.
Interesting... What do you mean?
Well, not to answer for The Dread Pirate Hurley (he may certainly have a different view or idea), if you have access to Kingmaker (or, maybe, Ultimate Campaign, I think?) you can take a page from them: basically have a large hex-grid map in which you explore individual hexes (with different travel times for different terrain types and movement/transportation modes) that you gain XP by exploring.
The longer it takes you to travel across areas, the more random encounters you end up with. This incentivizes the PC to do two things: explore, and get a horse* (to explore faster, and have less random encounters**).
Also, exploration is different from "having traveled through, once or twice" - the former is something you actively do, while the latter is something that happens incidentally on your way to other things; the first gives you experience in a given place, the latter simply provokes random encounters.
Anyway, different hexes (a map made of six-sided-areas) could represent different regions, and have different random (or semi-random) encounters in it. (Such as "this area is infested with gmoblins and skeletonstalphos!") You might even select two or three hexes for a region, allowing for larger, variant-shaped regions.
* This could, later, be replaced with a vague sort of teleportation-like effect, ala Link to the Past's bird-summon-travel-thing.
** While more encounters might lead to more XP, they also tend toward tedium in solo-play. Another benefit of exploration (that I'm creating whole-cloth right now) could be the opportunity to make a general "level check" against the CR of whatever random (or semi-random) encounters are found in a given area. Like, say, if peahats are CR 7 (I'm making this number up), and your Hero(ine) has successfully explored this area once, she makes a generic level check against a DC 15+7 = DC 22 (again, I'm just making this number up; please adjust). If unsuccessful, she takes damage from her encounter with the peahat(s) equal to [(the peahat CR) - (her level)]*(average peahat damage). If successful, she reduces the damage even further, maybe even healing (representing gaining hearts from enemies). Having a mount either reduces the likelihood of encounters, grants a bonus to the level check (+2/+4/etc.), or both. If successful, she just defeats the peahats. This would make traveling through familiar places potentially problematic, but much faster, allowing you to have more narrative battles than grindy ones - and also represent the differences between a n00blet player in the Hyrulian wilds and a seasoned veteran who generally just passes through places more easily. But that's just an idea.
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Thanks Tac, that's exactly what I was on about. Kingmaker-style hexploration would work really well in Hyrule or Termina, as spread out as the different hub areas are.
The only reason I bring it up is that dealing with overland travel has the same problem as running around in a dungeon: it's dull and tedious. Playing OoT on the N64 is a very different experience than playing a tabletop game. Running around Hyrule Fields (or running from room to room in a dungeon) isn't so bad when you're controlling Link in a 3D world with visuals and music and so on, but narrating the constant travel both in the overworld and in the dungeons can be very boring in a tabletop. This is actually one of the biggest reasons Diablo tabletop games tend to fail, in my experience. Anything you can do to spice up the walking part of the game will drastically improve the whole experience. Otherwise, you're better off "teleporting" between areas (like from Hyrule Castle Town to Kakariko), but that would diminish the uniqueness and special utility of the ocarina's teleport songs.
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After thinking about it some more, and conversing with my wife, I've decided not to run a campaign for her that is based on Ocarina of Time. However, so as not to waste all the valuable information provided by you wonderful people - and to keep in theme with Zelda - I will be creating our own plot and story for her to play. I already have some ideas of what might be going on, in Hyrule at least:
- There is a plot to overthrow the king of Hyrule and turn the kingdom into a democracy. While this may prove to be progressive and a good idea, the men and women behind the plot want the democracy to execute their nefarious deeds.
- A sacred gem – one that was created to make the harsh environment somewhat sustainable for the outcast thief women – has been stolen from the Gerudo desert. If the gem is not returned and replaced, the people living in the desert may find their homes destroyed and their lives at the hands of fate once more
- Kakariko Village has become a literal ghost town as its denizens have been chased away or captured by the horrific creatures that have risen from the graveyard. Survivors speculate that the event may have something to do with the cursed house within the village.
- The guardians of Kokiri Forest – the deku scrubs, babas, and various other creatures – have attacked the Kokiri, despite the Deku Tree being as tall and health as its forebear. Something dark and mysterious is happening within the forest, and some believe it is coming from the Lost Woods.
- All contact with the Gorons on Death Mountain has been lost. Their portals have been shut and no one is admitted into their tunnels. Is there a power struggle between the normally docile stone-eaters, ever since their leader disappeared?I actually intend to include several other lands within this campaign, other than Hyrule - Termina, Labrynna, and Holodrum, to mention three.
I would LOVE to hear what you have in mind for those adventures. I rolled up a Link-like character for a friend's Hell's Rebels AP,(he fit magnificently), and I went Aasimar (Musetouched, for the slightly pointed ears) Bard/Fighter 2/5. We're just about to start book 3. I focused him more on humor and comic relief.
Captain Zimiri:
Just so you can get an idea of what we're talking about:
Other maps:
one
two (I don't get this one)
three (sorry 'bout the write-over)
four (mixed map; comes with a free debate!)
five (good ol' OoT!)
six (from LoZ II)
seven (comes with another free debate!)
eight
... and...
not a map, but what you're trying to evoke!
Hope those are helpful!
That first is a basic idea of a hex map, but this is actually what I meant: have a nice picture of a map, then make hex grids on top of it.
Google Search of Hex Grids - you might want to find larger hexes so, instead of over a dozen across and almost a dozen down, you have more like six to ten across or something. Or even just getting a map of the Hyrule you intend to use, then hex-gridding the areas that "can" be explored. Or whatsoever you like!
For clarification,
That first is a basic idea of a hex map, but this is actually what I meant: have a nice picture of a map, then make hex grids on top of it....
^ this right here is the kind of map I was envisioning. Simply drawing large hexes over different regions, and noting that each hex explored followed certain parameters.
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I have actually been using hexographer (a program for creating hex maps) to create my own map of Hyrule. However my map is mostly based on the original Legend of Zelda and is on a different scale than Pathfinder's hexcrawling rules.
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Thanks for the hex ideas, all. I didn't do much planning last week because our session of Carrion Crown happened. Once I get more work done of our Zelda campaign, I'll give another update.