Please, kineticist. Please


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Why must you hurt me in this way?

Why does air kineticist breathe underwater for one wild talent 9 levels before hydrokineticist can with two?

Why must you be level 4 and take a whole wild talent to do nonlethal damage as a phytokineticist?

For that matter, why must you forget to even put basic phytokinesis in the book?

Why must phytokineticist spend 3 burn at level 8 to maybe sicken someone for 1 round?

Why must basic geokinesis be so incredibly weak? Please. 100 pounds at level 20. Please, man. It's rocks. The fighter with 18 strength can lift up to 600 pounds of anything at first level.

Why must the ability to jump high and the ability to survive high falls be separate?

Why must kinetic cover crumble at the slightest touch? Is boosting yourself up 5 feet really overpowered enough to make a mound of rocks with up to 40 hit points unable to support more than 5 pounds of weight?

Why must tremorsense greater not work on manufactured underground facilities made of stone? Earth kineticist is the rock man. he does rocks. please, let him do rocks. it's all he can do.

I want to love you so much, Kineticist. Please let me love you like you deserve


Arcutiys wrote:
Why must kinetic cover crumble at the slightest touch? Is boosting yourself up 5 feet really overpowered enough to make a mound of rocks with up to 40 hit points unable to support more than 5 pounds of weight?

Wait.... Why are you using kinetic cover to boost yourself up higher?


Milo v3 wrote:
Arcutiys wrote:
Why must kinetic cover crumble at the slightest touch? Is boosting yourself up 5 feet really overpowered enough to make a mound of rocks with up to 40 hit points unable to support more than 5 pounds of weight?
Wait.... Why are you using kinetic cover to boost yourself up higher?

I'm not. I just don't see the point in not letting you. It's these little things in Pathfinder that give it the RULESRULESRULESNOFUN reputation.

I can get that they're trying to stop exploits, which were pretty big in ye olden dais. But it's just constraining well intentioned players and completely ruining any immersion, much less missing the point of why people want a kineticist. If you have a player who's exploiting the system in any way they can to one-up the GM/party, the rules aren't the problem.

Silver Crusade

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I actually agree with you; out of all the new classes, the kineticist is tuned to such a high degree to make it break proof. Also wood is kind of universally looked down on, it...isn't great.

There's a lot of fun options in the class, but the complains you have are pretty valid. The class was made to avoid abuse, and in some ways that just limits it too much, which is why I wrote some stuff for it myself since it's a REALLY fun chassis. But right now I think a lot of the issues are that it's a very different kind of class from everything that's out now, and while the design space is there, it's going to take a pretty long time before it gets explored more thoroughly.


I agree about the hydrokineticist not getting the ability to breath water at level 1 like they should. Also they can only get a swim speed of 20.

Most problems I have for this class can be solved by giving them more wild talent options.


The design values are fine, but you cannot impose the design values they pushed on the kineticist in a game with Wizards, whose online design value is "cool s*&%".

Though in terms of design itself, I think they were too cautious with the kineticist in terms of utility sometimes.


One player at my PFS table is doing so much ridiculous stuff with his telekineticist, it breaks several scenarios in half. He showed me several threads and their conclusions, and told me what his character is capable of. He then proceeded to ride a floating carpet made of rubble throughout several parts of the dungeon, effectively skipping the need for several skill checks (through Telekinetic Haul. I realised later it's only for one object, not several smaller ones, but still).
Okay, his character isn't the greatest in damage, but his utility is insane. In a skill-heavy scenario, he managed to circumvent more than half the skill checks just by using telekinesis (mostly by ferrying people over danger by letting them ride a big rock they found in the dungeon). I mean, it's what his character's made for, so I don't begrudge him that, but it sort of took the wind out of my sails as a GM. There simply wasn't any tension anymore.


I agree. The class must have more room to shine. Compared to any caster, the kineticist is lacking flexibility. I hope this can be changed in future material (archetypes, new talents, feats, etc...).


If you think of a Kineticist as a Martial class then it looks like a nice martial class. Think Barbarian and it's awesome rage powers for wild talents.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:

One player at my PFS table is doing so much ridiculous stuff with his telekineticist, it breaks several scenarios in half. He showed me several threads and their conclusions, and told me what his character is capable of. He then proceeded to ride a floating carpet made of rubble throughout several parts of the dungeon, effectively skipping the need for several skill checks (through Telekinetic Haul. I realised later it's only for one object, not several smaller ones, but still).

Okay, his character isn't the greatest in damage, but his utility is insane. In a skill-heavy scenario, he managed to circumvent more than half the skill checks just by using telekinesis (mostly by ferrying people over danger by letting them ride a big rock they found in the dungeon). I mean, it's what his character's made for, so I don't begrudge him that, but it sort of took the wind out of my sails as a GM. There simply wasn't any tension anymore.

The utility Kineticists of certain elements bring has to be taken into consideration by the DM more than other classes, especially if it's of the all-day variety. You simply can't rely on those sorts of things to bring tension or adventure when a Kineticist is present. They require entirely different encounter and adventure design because of the lack of resource expenditure that some talents offer. On the opposite end, the OP brought up that some elements have bizarre limits or pre-reqs for things that should be second nature to a class whose entire shtick is choosing a single element and being great at it.

Kineticists can break standard encounter design in some ways which angers DMs and they can fail to offer the elemental master experience which angers players.

On the bright side, some elements and talents were done very well, making for incredibly fun, unique characters. Aero and Aether are two that I've seen general approval of around the boards. They fulfill the fantasy at appropriate levels, imo.

Scarab Sages

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Am I the only one who thinks water shouldn't have easy access to breath water? Air shroud makes sense because you are creating air around your head, not actually breathing water. Being able to breath water requires either breaking down the chemical structure of water to create hydrogen and oxygen, or transmuting your lungs to function as gills. Either one is a lot harder do than simply keeping a air bubble around your head.


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Aeros can survive underwater sooner than Hydros.

Ignoring the logistics of how they do it, just thematically, do you think that's okay?


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I'm totally ok with it. Kineticists call upon their elemental matter from the elemental plane. Aerokineticists get continuous supply of air at level 2, everyone breathes air at level 1, but aerokineticists get air to go with them everywhere a level later. Void kineticists gets to not breathe at all at level 4. Hydrokineticists summon water, but they don't get to breathe in it like a fish til level 10, that current talent combines with water walk. Mark suggested "a solitaire water-breathing talent that didn't also cover water walking could certainly be lower level than the current one that gives both."


And should have been in the book. You're channeling your element through your body, so why can't you breathe in water as a water kinitecist???

Makes. Zero. Sense.

Silver Crusade

Water breathing really should have been a 1st (or at latest 2nd) level talent, it feels so strange that it had to be tethered to water walk. It's even less versatile than Air bubble or No breath due to only working in water which are available a lot sooner.

I really want to see some more love for stuff like water, void, and wood though, still places to play around there design wise.


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Azten wrote:

And should have been in the book. You're channeling your element through your body, so why can't you breathe in water as a water kinitecist???

Makes. Zero. Sense.

PLEASE

HE IS THE WATER MAN

PLEASE JUST LET HIM DO THE WATER IT'S ALL HE WANTS

It's just water! Just let the guy who picked the class based around water be able to go in the water without dying! It makes zero sense that the class based ENTIRELY around water and NOTHING else, the waterguy, can't do water until level 10, where as the guy based around jumping around can do it in immediately, even though he can't use most of his powers in the water!

The flavour, mechanics, and intent are supposed to work TOGETHER, not smash their skulls together.


Protoman wrote:
I'm totally ok with it. Kineticists call upon their elemental matter from the elemental plane. Aerokineticists get continuous supply of air at level 2, everyone breathes air at level 1, but aerokineticists get air to go with them everywhere a level later. Void kineticists gets to not breathe at all at level 4. Hydrokineticists summon water, but they don't get to breathe in it like a fish til level 10, that current talent combines with water walk. Mark suggested "a solitaire water-breathing talent that didn't also cover water walking could certainly be lower level than the current one that gives both."
I wrote:
Ignoring the logistics of how they do it, just thematically, do you think that's okay?

Scarab Sages

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DominusMegadeus wrote:

Aeros can survive underwater sooner than Hydros.

Ignoring the logistics of how they do it, just thematically, do you think that's okay?

Yes. Air has two real tricks: being able to fly, and being able to create air. Water has many more useful utility talents to control water on land and a far superior defense talent.

Thematically, should water have a low level water breathing utility talent? Probably. But comparing the entire talents of Air vs water, I don't have a problem with air being able to survive underwater earlier than water. They can do far less while down there than a hydro can.


Imbicatus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:

Aeros can survive underwater sooner than Hydros.

Ignoring the logistics of how they do it, just thematically, do you think that's okay?

Yes. Air has two real tricks: being able to fly, and being able to create air. Water has many more useful utility talents to control water on land and a far superior defense talent.

Thematically, should water have a low level water breathing utility talent? Probably. But comparing the entire talents of Air vs water, I don't have a problem with air being able to survive underwater earlier than water. They can do car less while down there than a hydro can.

Then Air should be able to do more things, and water should be able to do things in WATER

Saying "But it would make it more unbalanced" isn't really any kind of solution. "It's broke, and fixing it in one way would make it more broken in other ways" doesn't really excuse the fact that it's still broken.


But if you make water so incredibly especially good underwater then you have the same problem that all the other water themed archetypes and abilities have (read: they're complete and utter garbage in 99% of campaigns).

Silver Crusade

Arachnofiend wrote:
But if you make water so incredibly especially good underwater then you have the same problem that all the other water themed archetypes and abilities have (read: they're complete and utter garbage in 99% of campaigns).

So you make it wood with forest, yeah.

Water really isn't amazing out of water to me either, but it's more universal than wood. I said it in my guide, I think water is probably the most 'average' out of the original 5 elements, which to me isn't a great thing.


I also never understood why you don't gain energy resistance/immunity to your element. I mean as a constant effect and no burn cost.

Also 2 points of resistance for one burn is a horrible trade off, it should have been 5 points per 1 burn maxing out at 30 for 6 burn.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've been playing a hydrokineticist. I like the class, but I definitely think it needs more wild talent options, especially at lower levels. I'd imagine this is in large part due to the fact that kineticist is a newer class and hasn't had the chance to build up a ton of options yet.

I am, however, quite excited to finally be able to take the talent where you can ice-skate through the air like Frozone.


Arachnofiend wrote:
But if you make water so incredibly especially good underwater then you have the same problem that all the other water themed archetypes and abilities have (read: they're complete and utter garbage in 99% of campaigns).

I genuinely haven't been in a single campaign where there's been a lack of water, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Heck, in pathfinder society one-offs there's mostly at least some form of water, or need of water.

Besides, how would giving water kineticsts the ability to reasonably breathe water make this problem worse? It would just let them do their job.


It's the opportunity cost. Getting the breath water ability stops you from getting anything else that level. So instead of getting an ability that works like all the time you have one that works sometimes to rarely.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
It's the opportunity cost. Getting the breath water ability stops you from getting anything else that level. So instead of getting an ability that works like all the time you have one that works sometimes to rarely.

In my kineticist fix I'm working on I dealt with that by giving some things away for free in the same manner of "basic xkinesis" every couple of levels.


N. Jolly wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
But if you make water so incredibly especially good underwater then you have the same problem that all the other water themed archetypes and abilities have (read: they're complete and utter garbage in 99% of campaigns).

So you make it wood with forest, yeah.

Water really isn't amazing out of water to me either, but it's more universal than wood. I said it in my guide, I think water is probably the most 'average' out of the original 5 elements, which to me isn't a great thing.

I think it was better in the beta; water was the best "caster" element because all of the good control infusions were in it. Making fire better and giving it dispel magic and such kinda diminished it in comparison.


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I was abit surprised that fire was the only one to get "thematic powers" rather than just element manipulation with it's burning away of magic and near-resurrection.


Chess Pwn wrote:
It's the opportunity cost. Getting the breath water ability stops you from getting anything else that level. So instead of getting an ability that works like all the time you have one that works sometimes to rarely.

That's why I said "the ability to reasonably breathe water." Milo's previously mentioned fix would work well for it.


Milo v3 wrote:
I was abit surprised that fire was the only one to get "thematic powers" rather than just element manipulation with it's burning away of magic and near-resurrection.

This is largely because fire was really, REALLY bad in the beta. Like, "why would you even use this ever" bad, so they needed the biggest boost from wild talents. Earth, on the other hand, was already exceptional and required very few if any updates for the live version of the element.


I think it makes far more sense for air to get the early breathing ability personally.

That said water gets it a little on the late side compared to the 5th-6th level of generic casters so if it were available a little earlier it wouldn't be a big deal.

Thematically though, I think air getting it first makes a ton of sense.

EDIT: I'd actually ok with water NEVER getting to breathe water as a power; manipulating water kinetically doesn't really result in 'you can breathe this' as a power, to me.


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Ian Bell wrote:

I think it makes far more sense for air to get the early breathing ability personally.

That said water gets it a little on the late side compared to the 5th-6th level of generic casters so if it were available a little earlier it wouldn't be a big deal.

Thematically though, I think air getting it first makes a ton of sense.

EDIT: I'd actually ok with water NEVER getting to breathe water as a power; manipulating water kinetically doesn't really result in 'you can breathe this' as a power, to me.

How the heck does it make sense that the ONE GUY who wants to be THE GUY when it comes to water, how does it make sense that he can't friggin go in the water without drowning?!

I get it. The air guy does air. Aerokineticists have a good thematic reason to breathe. But COME ON, throw the water guy a bone. It's all he has. It's the ONE job he has!

Silver Crusade

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Arcutiys wrote:

How the heck does it make sense that the ONE GUY who wants to be THE GUY when it comes to water, how does it make sense that he can't friggin go in the water without drowning?!

I get it. The air guy does air. Aerokineticists have a good thematic reason to breathe. But COME ON, throw the water guy a bone. It's all he has. It's the ONE job he has!

I really have to agree here. When void can go breathless and it's only claim to that is a weak 'it's some kind of void of space related thing', the hydrokineticist should be able to breathe in water. They should be keyed into their element a lot.


I agree about hydrokineticists being able to breath in water...

In regards to not having much support; I created my first Chaokineticist yesterday and good lord are they in desperate need of low level utility talent support!!! Your first utility choices are Skilled Kineticist or Void Healer... that is literally it. Skilled Kineticist is weaksauce and Void Healer is just... stupid. "Oh hey, I can heal undead! Cool! Except, I don't have any reason to heal undead, because I can't control undead... Wait, so why do I want to heal undead again?" *Sigh*


To be fair, my goblin Pyro is going to take Skilled Kineticist for Escape Artist, then Greater SK for Diplomacy. Should help keep him alive...

Scarab Sages

Void healer is only useful to Dhampirs. Any undead Chaokineticists can't use it to self heal or heal other undead because undead are unable to accept burn. The only way it works for them is to be an overwhelming soul.


Nope, undead can be Kineticist without the lame archetype. Class abilities trump limitations of type, That's why you've had undead barbarians since forever.


captain yesterday wrote:
Nope, undead can be Kineticist without the lame archetype. Class abilities trump limitations of type, That's why you've had undead barbarians since forever.

The class says "a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn." So class says undead can't take burn.

Scarab Sages

Except for burn, it specifically doesn't.

Quote:
Burn (Ex): At 1st level, a kineticist can overexert herself to channel more power than normal, pushing past the limit of what is safe for her body by accepting burn. Some of her wild talents allow her to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect, while others require her to accept a certain amount of burn to use that talent at all. For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level. This damage can't be healed by any means other than getting a full night's rest, which removes all burn and associated nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected, and a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn. A kineticist can accept only 1 point of burn per round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at 6th level, and rises by 1 additional point every 3 levels thereafter. A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control). A kineticist who has accepted burn never benefits from abilities that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she receives from nonlethal damage.

Undead are immune to non-lethal damage. They can't accept burn.


Milo v3 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Nope, undead can be Kineticist without the lame archetype. Class abilities trump limitations of type, That's why you've had undead barbarians since forever.
The class says "a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn." So class says undead can't take burn.

That tripped me up as well, but if you read the undead type, they use charisma instead of constitution for anything determined by constitution (like burn).

As far as the can't have non lethal damage, it says that about morale bonuses or whatever, yet the developers have ghoul barbarians running around raging, so...


captain yesterday wrote:

That tripped me up as well, but if you read the undead type, they use charisma instead of constitution for anything determined by constitution (like burn).

As far as the can't have non lethal damage, it says that about morale bonuses or whatever, yet the developers have ghoul barbarians running around raging, so...

That would allow undead to take up to 3 + her Charisma modifier in burn if they could take burn, but unfortunately that doesn't remove the text that stops them from taking a Single point of burn.

The class specifically says if you are incapable of taking non-lethal damage then you cannot take burn. So... if you are incapable of taking non-lethal damage then you cannot take burn. The developer even specifically acknowledged this and made sure that overwhelming soul existed as an option for creatures that cannot use burn, used charisma, and was compatible with blood kineticist so vampire kineticists work.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arcutiys wrote:
How the heck does it make sense that the ONE GUY who wants to be THE GUY when it comes to water, how does it make sense that he can't friggin go in the water without drowning?!

Because 95% of campaigns don't go in the water. The Water Guy can go into the water for short periods of time by holding his breath, until he gets the water breathing thing. For the majority of games, that's all he needs. The Water Guy does things with water, and at higher levels can do things in water. He doesn't need to be in the water from 1st level except in very specific games.


Arcutiys wrote:
Why must you hurt me in this way?

Because he hurts himself for using abilities and you have to share the suffering


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Milo v3 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

That tripped me up as well, but if you read the undead type, they use charisma instead of constitution for anything determined by constitution (like burn).

As far as the can't have non lethal damage, it says that about morale bonuses or whatever, yet the developers have ghoul barbarians running around raging, so...

That would allow undead to take up to 3 + her Charisma modifier in burn if they could take burn, but unfortunately that doesn't remove the text that stops them from taking a Single point of burn.

The class specifically says if you are incapable of taking non-lethal damage then you cannot take burn. So... if you are incapable of taking non-lethal damage then you cannot take burn. The developer even specifically acknowledged this and made sure that overwhelming soul existed as an option for creatures that cannot use burn, used charisma, and was compatible with blood kineticist so vampire kineticists work.

Really? I wonder why he made overwhelming soul so lame then :-D

I'll take your word for it, point goes to Milo and other dude. :-)


Regarding Water Breathing

It feels like if you're going to give Water the worst movement type possible (which is why I always hated elemental specific movement types ) he should at least be good at it.

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

One player at my PFS table is doing so much ridiculous stuff with his telekineticist, it breaks several scenarios in half. He showed me several threads and their conclusions, and told me what his character is capable of. He then proceeded to ride a floating carpet made of rubble throughout several parts of the dungeon, effectively skipping the need for several skill checks (through Telekinetic Haul. I realised later it's only for one object, not several smaller ones, but still).

Okay, his character isn't the greatest in damage, but his utility is insane. In a skill-heavy scenario, he managed to circumvent more than half the skill checks just by using telekinesis (mostly by ferrying people over danger by letting them ride a big rock they found in the dungeon). I mean, it's what his character's made for, so I don't begrudge him that, but it sort of took the wind out of my sails as a GM. There simply wasn't any tension anymore.

So what, with DM fiat on his side and some fast and loose rules interpretations (or outright ignoring of rules) the telekineticist could kind of do what a Wizard can do normally without being as good in combat as the wizard?

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be impressed.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Arcutiys wrote:
How the heck does it make sense that the ONE GUY who wants to be THE GUY when it comes to water, how does it make sense that he can't friggin go in the water without drowning?!
Because 95% of campaigns don't go in the water. The Water Guy can go into the water for short periods of time by holding his breath, until he gets the water breathing thing. For the majority of games, that's all he needs. The Water Guy does things with water, and at higher levels can do things in water. He doesn't need to be in the water from 1st level except in very specific games.

So your explanation as to why the water guy can't go in the water, is because campaigns don't go in the water.

Hey, barbarian, I'm going to arbitrarily take your rage power away until level 10 because I don't have anyone using the antagonize feat on you. So you don't have a reason to rage.

Hey, paladin, I'm taking away your ability to smite until level 10 because, really, do you NEED it? You can just swing your sword at him, right? What do you mean, the entire paladin class is based off of being a holy warrior? Yeah. I guess. But you don't need it, because 95% of the game is going to be easy enough for you to just be a gimped fighter.

Just because they don't friggin NEED to doesn't mean you can take away the ONE THING their class is about!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arcutiys wrote:

So your explanation as to why the water guy can't go in the water, is because campaigns don't go in the water.

The water guy can absolutely go in the water. I don't know why you think they NEED water breathing to go in the water. They only need it to STAY in the water. They don't die as soon as they touch it.

Arcutiys wrote:
Just because they don't friggin NEED to doesn't mean you can take away the ONE THING their class is about!

Nor does it mean you HAVE to give it to them. And honestly, breathing underwater is NOT the ONE THING their class about.

It's a design choice, and they didn't choose to give that.

Scarab Sages

Breathing water isn't what the class is about. Creating water is what the class is about. Create water blasts to attack? All day long. Create water to drink? all day long. Create water vapor to conceal yourself? all day long. Create ice armor to shield yourself? all day long.

Breathing water and going underwater is not the focus of the class.


Arcutiys wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Arcutiys wrote:
How the heck does it make sense that the ONE GUY who wants to be THE GUY when it comes to water, how does it make sense that he can't friggin go in the water without drowning?!
Because 95% of campaigns don't go in the water. The Water Guy can go into the water for short periods of time by holding his breath, until he gets the water breathing thing. For the majority of games, that's all he needs. The Water Guy does things with water, and at higher levels can do things in water. He doesn't need to be in the water from 1st level except in very specific games.

So your explanation as to why the water guy can't go in the water, is because campaigns don't go in the water.

Hey, barbarian, I'm going to arbitrarily take your rage power away until level 10 because I don't have anyone using the antagonize feat on you. So you don't have a reason to rage.

Hey, paladin, I'm taking away your ability to smite until level 10 because, really, do you NEED it? You can just swing your sword at him, right? What do you mean, the entire paladin class is based off of being a holy warrior? Yeah. I guess. But you don't need it, because 95% of the game is going to be easy enough for you to just be a gimped fighter.

Just because they don't friggin NEED to doesn't mean you can take away the ONE THING their class is about!

The class is about manipulating water. NOT BREATHING WATER! The class successfully manipulates water. Therefore the class is successfully doing the thing it's all about. Breathing water is not what the class is all about.

But for you, the real injustice should be Fire and Wood, neither get the ability to breath in their elements.


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Yea pyros don't breathe smoke or can be fully immersed in lava with no issues unlike a hydrokineticist with greater waterdancer. Geos with earth glide still gotta hold their breath.

Hydros can create water and submerge themselves with no issues at level 1. Can breathe in it at level 10 if they so choose.

I want my pyro to be walking around on fire all the time, but then I got people throwing questions/complaints at me like:
"Are your clothes and magic items on fire or taking damage? It's not like those things have energy resistance or immune to fire."
"How do you hold scrolls? Or other note-taking devices."
"Your burning body's light is giving away our location."
"If you swim in lava you're eventually gonna be burned to death."
"It's counter-productive to the game for you to set everything on fire just so you can feel like you're in your element. That village did nothing to you." I guess 99% of games involve the party NOT adventuring into a fire zone for a whole adventuring day. The potential 1% is going to the Plane of Fire.

WHERE. IS. THE. JUSTICE?

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