Kahel Stormbender |
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Azten wrote:And should have been in the book. You're channeling your element through your body, so why can't you breathe in water as a water kinitecist???
Makes. Zero. Sense.
PLEASE
HE IS THE WATER MAN
PLEASE JUST LET HIM DO THE WATER IT'S ALL HE WANTS
It's just water! Just let the guy who picked the class based around water be able to go in the water without dying! It makes zero sense that the class based ENTIRELY around water and NOTHING else, the waterguy, can't do water until level 10, where as the guy based around jumping around can do it in immediately, even though he can't use most of his powers in the water!
The flavour, mechanics, and intent are supposed to work TOGETHER, not smash their skulls together.
So, you believe that just because I can conjure and project water... I should automatically be able to breath water? How? My body has no means of processing water for O2. Figuring out how to do that would take time, and far more experience with my powers.
Meanwhile my buddy who can conjure and project air with enough force to hurt things... Well, he can CONJURE AIR. You know, the stuff you need in order to breath. Of course him figuring out how to surround himself in breathable air will take less time.
Makes sense to me. Besides, hydrokinetics can do some rather nifty stuff early on too. Like healing people. Or creating Grease like slicks which don't risk the party slipping on them since they only last a round.
Kahel Stormbender |
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Ian Bell wrote:Dunno. Water guy keeping a pocket of not-water around him doesn't seem particularly more difficult than air guy keeping a pocket of not-water around him.
Meanwhile the air guy just needs to use his air moving powers to move some air near his head and hold it there. Seems like it should be much easier for him, right?
Sure it does. You use your hydrokinesis to create a pocket around your head with no water in it. Okay, sure, great idea. Now start breathing. That pocket has a very limited supply of breathable air in it. And with each breath you're replacing it with ever increasing amounts of carbon dioxide. Which you can't breath. How many breaths does it take to use up all your breathable air supply? Now, how are you using hydrokinesis to REPLACE the used air?
Meanwhile the aerokinetic can constantly replace the used air with fresh air pulled directly from the appropriate elemental plane. It's kind of a logical extension from using aerokinesis to keep yourself cool combined with pulling air from an elemental plane to use as a weapon. Thus a low tier wild talent. But if he/she wants to let others spend all day under water, well that's far more difficult. Thus requires a higher tier wild talent.
On a game balance side of the issue though, hydrokinetics get far more useful utility talents. Things which directly benefit the entire party. Healing, short duration grease effects, line of sight blocking effects...
Compared to aerokinesis which mainly gets things that help the aerokinetic alone. Feather fall... but only for you. Flight, but only for you. Increased jumping capability, but only for you. Evasion, but only for you. Protection from poisonous gasses and drowning, but only for you till a much higher level...
Kahel Stormbender |
Mark Seifter wrote:I think it does already; only fire has special rules underwater out of energy types (Disclaimer: This is off the top of my head and I didn't actually look it up). If electricity had any kind of special rule for underwater, it would probably be to disperse out into a low damage AoE.All ranged attacks take accuracy penalties underwater by default.... though I suppose that might make sense with electricity since it'd be going everywhere and thus harder to aim.
And because HEY, you're not able to see as well underwater as you would above water.
Rosc |
On a game balance side of the issue though, hydrokinetics get far more useful utility talents. Things which directly benefit the entire party. Healing, short duration grease effects, line of sight blocking effects...
Compared to aerokinesis which mainly gets things that help the aerokinetic alone. Feather fall... but only for you. Flight, but only for you. Increased jumping capability, but only for you. Evasion, but only for you. Protection from poisonous gasses and drowning, but only for you till a much higher level...
To be fair, Grease is more "debuff the enemy" than "buff allies." I would still call that useful support, but then you have to consider the pushing and deafening infusions you get from Air.
And you neglected to mention Haste. Between that and one of the best forms of Flight in the game, that puts them close to the top when it comes to utility, beneath only Aether.
Anyway, I'm still all about Water getting water breathing. Ironically, going secondary into Air amd picking up the air bubble might be the best way to go about it. That way you can get flight instead of Greayer Water Dancer, which is a straighr upgrade in any campaign that isn't REALLY focused on aquatic adventures.
At the end of the day, however, this still feels like the second most chuckle-worthy water based issue. Did you know that an Unchained Summoner's WATER ELEMENTAL Eidolon both cannot swim and is vulnerable to drowning pre 8?
Wheldrake |
What's this???
Your hydrokineticist can't breathe water???
Didn't you realize that the primary prerequisite for this class was being a merfolk, an aquatic elf or a selkie? No? It didn't say that in the book? Word count, man, it's all the fault of word count, they had to cut that part but figured it would be super-obvious.
<g>
Seriously, I don't think that any errata is going to come out for the occult classes anytime soon, so we'd better all get used to the existing powers as they are described, or else convince our DMs to houserule anything that doesn't work the way we think it should.
Personally, I could easily see hydrokineticists having potential access to water breathing far earlier than 10th level, and would have no problem house-ruling that into existence. I don't see it as an automatic 1st-level power, though (if only to avoid having folks dip one level of the class specifically for that power).
But yeah, water breathing is super situational. You can game for years without having the need for it come up, unless you design a whole campaign around it. And in the latter case, the DM is likely to have made available multiple means of gaining water breathing (water-weed or similar mechanisms) thus making the uniqueness of the power less of an issue.
Perhaps a good house rule would be for the budding hydrokineticist to get some multiple to his constitution score relative to the time he can hold his breath underwater. Perhaps CON x class level?
Imbicatus |
I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.
Or the Furycrafters in Codex Alera, none of which can breath water. Or Marvel's Iceman, who can't breath water.
I can't think of anyone in Fiction or pop culture who can manipulate water who can also breath water, unless they got that ability racially.
Melkiador |
But plenty of gravity manipulators who don't need to breathe, right?
Saying that Void shouldn't have something is different than saying that Water should have something. But also, there are no void benders in Avatar, so the inspirations came from further afield. Rather than gravity superheroes, the class seems based on space monsters.
Scythia |
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Revan wrote:It's an active ability rather than apassive he, but I distinctly remember Katara using water bending to survive underwater on several occasions.The closest thing she ever did was form a pocket of water that held a limited supply of air from the surface.
Right, unlike the times Aang went underwater and conjured an endless supply of air from another dimension.
LoneKnave |
Melkiador wrote:I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.Or the Furycrafters in Codex Alera, none of which can breath water. Or Marvel's Iceman, who can't breath water.
I can't think of anyone in Fiction or pop culture who can manipulate water who can also breath water, unless they got that ability racially.
Does Iceman even need to breath?
graystone |
Imbicatus wrote:Does Iceman even need to breath?Melkiador wrote:I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.Or the Furycrafters in Codex Alera, none of which can breath water. Or Marvel's Iceman, who can't breath water.
I can't think of anyone in Fiction or pop culture who can manipulate water who can also breath water, unless they got that ability racially.
Only in his unpowered human form. Powered up, he turns his body into 100% organic ice/water or water vapor. While it's true he doesn't breathe underwater, it's because he has no need to.
Arachnofiend |
Melkiador wrote:I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.I'm pretty sure the kineticists aren't benders. Usually earthbenders don't just shoot rocks from their flesh.
Benders are 100% part of the inspiration for the class; not all of it, but part of it.
Arcutiys |
Arcutiys wrote:Benders are 100% part of the inspiration for the class; not all of it, but part of it.Melkiador wrote:I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.I'm pretty sure the kineticists aren't benders. Usually earthbenders don't just shoot rocks from their flesh.
I didn't say they weren't. Why did you think I did? I just said that his assertion made no sense on a design or logical level.
Derek Dalton |
Not being able to breathe underwater with water as your specialty seems like a glaring error honestly no matter the inspiration. I have played an Earth Kinetecist and our group and I were impressed with it. If I had a personal complaint is the skill slection is odd and small compared to a variety of other classes. Wizards, and Cleriics get a broad selection but limited skill points Fighters have a more varied skill selection but again are limited with skill point. The Kineticist seems undecided on this. Weird skills but decent skill points.
graystone |
Dragon78 wrote:That's a major improvement over the mundanes. Ranks in swim do not give a swim speed and the attendant benefits.I agree about the hydrokineticist not getting the ability to breath water at level 1 like they should. Also they can only get a swim speed of 20.
A human unchained rogue that took the skill unlock swim has a faster swim speed with 10 ranks [30']. A 6th level human barbarian can take Bestial Swimmer and be faster. So there are 2 mundanes that outswim the hydrokineticist and that seems pretty sad.
EDIT: though if you have a swim speed already, you do kick some butt. A merfolk with Strongtail is rocking a 25' land move and a 50' swim...
The Mortonator |
Fighters have a more varied skill selection
Have you been playing the same Pathfinder game I know?
Fighters have an incredibly bad skill selection. One of the worst things Fighters suffer from is inheriting 3.X terrible, terrible, terrible skill selection. They lack Acrobatics, Heal, Perception, and Stealth the most important skills to most party characters especially martials.
Meanwhile, the Kineticsts has all of them in the default package of 8 skills. And even though they only have 8 on the surface they get an additional 2 class skills to be on part with the Fighter when they get an element. The more situational skills, such as climb and swim, have been relegated to here. And you can pick up a few more each expanded element.
So, yea, Kineticist is basically what a Fighter's skills list should look like.
Liz Courts Community Manager |
Caedwyr |
Melkiador wrote:I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.Or the Furycrafters in Codex Alera, none of which can breath water. Or Marvel's Iceman, who can't breath water.
I can't think of anyone in Fiction or pop culture who can manipulate water who can also breath water, unless they got that ability racially.
Actually, water furycrafters are shown several times to use their water furycraft to allow them to breathe under the water (by making an air pocket).