Hi,
For a long-running campaign, I am making a 13th-level back-up character (25-point build). I was thinking about making a rogue.
Now, seeing that our DM almost never uses traps (and our magic users can easily deal with the few that we do encounter), I was thinking about making a stealthy two-weapon fighting rogue (in another campaign I'm playing in, a friend of mine already plays a knife-thrower, so I don't want to copy that prototype rogue).
I was actually thinking along one of the following lines:
- catfolk (see below)
- single-class unchained rogue
- scout archetype
- knife master archetype
- (maybe) unchained secondary class fighter
or
- catfolk (see below)
- unchained rogue
- scout archetype
- knife master archetype
- arcane tricster prestige class
- one additional class to qualify for arcane trickster
Note that our DM does not allow for the ninja class or any rogue ninja talents, and that we're playing a Tamriel (Skyrim) campaign, where catfolk are called Khajiit, and the claws alternative racial trait is standard (ie: natural hunter is replaced and cannot be replaced by something else). Also, familiars or the leadership feat are disallowed, to speed up play. More specific campaign information can be found here. Note that Khajiit, like all catfolk, get +2 Dex and +2 Cha, and -2 Wis.
Now, as we all know, a two-weapon fighter can be quite feat-consuming. By choosing two archetypes and a secondary or prestige class, am I straining too much? Should I limit myself a little bit to make my build viable? Only standard Paizo material is allowed, 3PP is not.
If you do consider either of both of these builds viable, what feats and rogue talents would you advise for either of them? I do have some ideas, but I'd rather not steer the discussion any more than necessary...
Note that, as a 13th-level character, I have 140,000gp to spend on items, which helps a lot. Again: items from the standard Paizo books are allowed, items from 3PP are not. Items from non-open Paizo sources may be allowed if the DM considers then "not too setting-specific". An amulet of the blooded (fey) would be allowed, this I checked.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
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Well, the way to go Arcane Trickster is Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 9 (or Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 8). This requires the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat, but is quite solid.
That build, however, also gets nothing from Scout and is basically a Wizard (or Sorcerer) + Sneak Attack, not actually any sort of Rogue. Trying to go with more levels of Rogue and less of Arcane Trickster just winds up kind of a mess, and not nearly as good (remember, Arcane Trickster uses Wizard BAB and HD).
So, if you want to play a real Rogue, I'd go with the first build, which sounds very doable. If you want to play a Wizard or Sorcerer with some Rogue skills and Sneak Attack, go Arcane Trickster.
So, does anyone have any suggestions on feats, rogue talents, or items?
It would be most appreciated!
Note that catfolk can take a feat that gives a bite attack, giving her three natural attacks, with both claws primary. Would this work better than just sticking to two daggers?
Just wondering what would yield the better rogue...
I cannot in good faith recommend TWF; you will have an incredibly difficult time hitting anything on a 3/4 bab class with no innate bonuses to hit.
Normally I'd recommend you go full hog on natural attacks but I'm not sure how many naturals you can get with your GM's restrictions since the Helm of the Mammoth Lord is certainly going to be considered setting specific.
Well, I strongly suspect my GM will allow the Helm of the Mammoth, since it comes from Ultimate Equipment, which (as all Ultimate books) is fair game to choose from. Also, Khajiit come from Elswyr, a region of Tamriel that is part desert, part jungle (in theme with elephants, as per the helm).
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I cannot in good faith recommend TWF; you will have an incredibly difficult time hitting anything on a 3/4 bab class with no innate bonuses to hit.
I've ran the numbers and I can say with full confidence that this is extremely incorrect for Unchained Rogues.
TWF Unchained Rogues outpace 2H or natural attack Rogues by 20% of output. Sneak attack is a big fat pile of damage, and Debilitating Injury is a big, fat pile of accuracy.
If you don't go TWF, you are crippling yourself.
In any case, TWF is not feat intensive. It's TWF and ITWF. You don't want any other feat for this style.
Double Slice? 1. Doesn't work, 2. It's a ludicrously irrelevant amount of damage.
Two-Weapon Rend? No Strength.
GTWF? Heh.
It's just two feats. You can fit it.
As for recommendations. Twist Away and Iron Will. Steadfast Personality if you go with high CHA and 10 WIS.
Well, the way to go Arcane Trickster is Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 9 (or Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster 8). This requires the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat, but is quite solid.
That build, however, also gets nothing from Scout and is basically a Wizard (or Sorcerer) + Sneak Attack, not actually any sort of Rogue. Trying to go with more levels of Rogue and less of Arcane Trickster just winds up kind of a mess, and not nearly as good (remember, Arcane Trickster uses Wizard BAB and HD).
So, if you want to play a real Rogue, I'd go with the first build, which sounds very doable. If you want to play a Wizard or Sorcerer with some Rogue skills and Sneak Attack, go Arcane Trickster.
this is a very solid build and one I really enjoyed played. the knife master archetype is a great bonus to this, but was not available when I played. I also think going the full 10 levels of Arcane Trickster is nice.
I cannot in good faith recommend TWF; you will have an incredibly difficult time hitting anything on a 3/4 bab class with no innate bonuses to hit.
Normally I'd recommend you go full hog on natural attacks but I'm not sure how many naturals you can get with your GM's restrictions since the Helm of the Mammoth Lord is certainly going to be considered setting specific.
I disagree, TWF is the ONLY way to play a rogue. With the arcane tricksters Natural Greater Invisibility, your opponents will be denied any dex. bonus to AC. Use Flanking as much as possible. and invest in brilliant energy weapons or weapons with an element bonus. being able to roll upwards of 30 or more dice for damage is way worth it.
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I cannot in good faith recommend TWF; you will have an incredibly difficult time hitting anything on a 3/4 bab class with no innate bonuses to hit.I've ran the numbers and I can say with full confidence that this is extremely incorrect for Unchained Rogues.
TWF Unchained Rogues outpace 2H or natural attack Rogues by 20% of output. Sneak attack is a big fat pile of damage, and Debilitating Injury is a big, fat pile of accuracy.
If you don't go TWF, you are crippling yourself.
In any case, TWF is not feat intensive. It's TWF and ITWF. You don't want any other feat for this style.
Double Slice? 1. Doesn't work, 2. It's a ludicrously irrelevant amount of damage.
Two-Weapon Rend? No Strength.
GTWF? Heh.
It's just two feats. You can fit it.
As for recommendations. Twist Away and Iron Will. Steadfast Personality if you go with high CHA and 10 WIS.
I like two weapon feint/ITWF as well. Being able to generate SA without flankers is very nice. I also like a level of snakebite striker brawler to ignore the combat expertise feat tax and add a point of BAB and a SA die.
Eh. I'd rather flank and wait for Hunter's Surprise - it's particularly nice at high levels because you can add the Sneaky quality to your two weapons for 5k a pop for a total of 5 uses of Hunter's Surprise a day.
It's better than Feint in my eyes because it doesn't care if the enemy is a mindless opponent or a non-humanoid.
If your math assumes that you're always taking the AC penalty then I can't accept it; the ability to debuff an enemy's to-hit has proven tremendously useful to my Rogue. I want to pick between whichever debuff is going to be most beneficial to the party, not the one that I'm required to use to keep pace in damage.
What is the rest of your party?
With their dependence on flanking to get sneak attacks, party make up and teamwork & tactics are particularly noteworthy when discussing rogues.
If your math assumes that you're always taking the AC penalty then I can't accept it; the ability to debuff an enemy's to-hit has proven tremendously useful to my Rogue. I want to pick between whichever debuff is going to be most beneficial to the party, not the one that I'm required to use to keep pace in damage.
Both cases, difference is more steep with -AC though.
Maybe I could publish math on optimal weapon configurations?
Knife master is all about sneak attacking with daggers. Arcane trickster is all about sneak attacking with spells. Don't mix the two.
If you really want to do arcane trickster, starting at 13th level would be a great way to do it; you bypass all the prerequisites.
Knife master is all about sneak attacking with daggers. Arcane trickster is all about sneak attacking with spells. Don't mix the two.
If you really want to do arcane trickster, starting at 13th level would be a great way to do it; you bypass all the prerequisites.
Em I think you meant all the levels of sucking :)
I can also confirm Secret Wizard's assessment on the superiority of TWF for unchained Rogue. Dagger is actually by far the best weapon for this due to Deific Obedience.
However in actual game play I'm not sure how many flanking full attacks you are actually gonna be pulling off. My guess is that it's far less than 50% of combat rounds and even less if you don't have a group actively helping you out here.
The Cayden Divine Fighting Technique might actually be really good for TWF Rogues if you found a way to make your CMB good.
I went with two weapon fighting and used Canny Tumble and Circiling Mongoose to full attack almost every round. If you go this method avoid Scout archetype and go Swashbuckler archetype for the extra combat trick and bonus to Acrobatics.
With two weapon fighting your first attack lowers their AC for your other attacks, and your last attack lowers their to hit for the party.
Knife master is all about sneak attacking with daggers. Arcane trickster is all about sneak attacking with spells. Don't mix the two.
If you really want to do arcane trickster, starting at 13th level would be a great way to do it; you bypass all the prerequisites.
Em I think you meant all the levels of sucking :)
I can also confirm Secret Wizard's assessment on the superiority of TWF for unchained Rogue. Dagger is actually by far the best weapon for this due to Deific Obedience.
However in actual game play I'm not sure how many flanking full attacks you are actually gonna be pulling off. My guess is that it's far less than 50% of combat rounds and even less if you don't have a group actively helping you out here.The Cayden Divine Fighting Technique might actually be really good for TWF Rogues if you found a way to make your CMB good.
There are a couple of good feats that will grant you flanking without actually being in flank position. The trickster also has Impromptu Sneak Attack which will allow backstab damage. When I played one, I picked up a ring of invisibility early on, which easily allowed me to get backstab damage. and then the Trickster gets Invisible thief at 9th level, which is basically Greater Invisibility, suddenly All of my attacks got sneak attack.
And let's not forget that with high dex, comes high initiative, and when combined with improved initiative you'll get to go first. and in the first round of combat, the opponent is flat footed until his turn, again allowing sneak attack damage.
So over the duration of play of my character, I'd say that easily 75% of his attacks got sneak attack damage.
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When I played one, I picked up a ring of invisibility early on, which easily allowed me to get backstab damage. and then the Trickster gets Invisible thief at 9th level, which is basically Greater Invisibility, suddenly All of my attacks got sneak attack.
So over the duration of play of my character, easily 75% of his attacks got sneak attack damage.
A ring of invisibility takes a standard action to activate and allows you to remain invisible for 3 minutes per activation. The short duration means you likely do not have it active when combat starts unless you pre-buff. This means you waste a round to become invisible, and then you can make one sneak attack next round before you become visible. Losing a round of attacks to make a single sneak attack is not a good trade.
There are much better uses for 10000 gold than a ring of invisibility, especially at low level.
When I played one, I picked up a ring of invisibility early on, which easily allowed me to get backstab damage. and then the Trickster gets Invisible thief at 9th level, which is basically Greater Invisibility, suddenly All of my attacks got sneak attack.
So over the duration of play of my character, easily 75% of his attacks got sneak attack damage.
A ring of invisibility takes a standard action to activate and allows you to remain invisible for 3 minutes per activation. The short duration means you likely do not have it active when combat starts unless you pre-buff. This means you waste a round to become invisible, and then you can make one sneak attack next round before you become visible. Losing a round of attacks to make a single sneak attack is not a good trade.
There are much better uses for 10000 gold than a ring of invisibility, especially at low level.
so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
Still your net gain is one Sneak attack per combat. That does nothing to enable TWF.
Still your net gain is one Sneak attack per combat. That does nothing to enable TWF.so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
I'm gonna disagree again, as the party scout, with stealth and invisibility, you should be within a 5' step of an opponent before combat starts. And even if you aren't, most of your party will be making single attacks due to having to move to get into base to base. But for raw damage output, the best a rogue can do is TWF with backstab, which is pretty easy to get.
My Arcane trickster rogue was once charmed/dominated/etc to kill off my own party (we play in a group of 6 players), I was able to kill 4 of them before I passed the will save to snap out of it (3 out of those 4 I was able to kill in one round each)
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Still your net gain is one Sneak attack per combat. That does nothing to enable TWF.so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
I'm gonna disagree again, as the party scout, with stealth and invisibility, you should be within a 5' step of an opponent before combat starts. And even if you aren't, most of your party will be making single attacks due to having to move to get into base to base. But for raw damage output, the best a rogue can do is TWF with backstab, which is pretty easy to get.
My Arcane trickster rogue was once charmed/dominated/etc to kill off my own party (we play in a group of 6 players), I was able to kill 4 of them before I passed the will save to snap out of it (3 out of those 4 I was able to kill in one round each)
Even if you can full attack, invisibility is only good for a single attack roll before breaking, and therefore is only allowing one sneak attack. You are visible and not denying dex to AC to any attacks after the first.
Even if you can full attack, invisibility is only good for a single attack roll before breaking, and therefore is only allowing one sneak attack. You are visible and not denying dex to AC to any attacks after the first.Still your net gain is one Sneak attack per combat. That does nothing to enable TWF.so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
I'm gonna disagree again, as the party scout, with stealth and invisibility, you should be within a 5' step of an opponent before combat starts. And even if you aren't, most of your party will be making single attacks due to having to move to get into base to base. But for raw damage output, the best a rogue can do is TWF with backstab, which is pretty easy to get.
My Arcane trickster rogue was once charmed/dominated/etc to kill off my own party (we play in a group of 6 players), I was able to kill 4 of them before I passed the will save to snap out of it (3 out of those 4 I was able to kill in one round each)
We've searched for a ruling on that and I believe it's up to DM discretion. We decided that "a full round attack" would all fall under surprise.
Luckily our fighter player typically has a higher Imitative than the rogue, or the rogue player will delay his action, until there is a fighter in base to base to help with flanking.
there is also the Surprise Attack feat, which leaves your opponent flat-footed for the whole round, even if they get to act.
Another good way to enforce sneak attack is VMC Magus. Arcane Pool's base ability is not exactly overwhelming with dual wield (you can have it active on but one weapon) but you can select Prescient Attack at level 7.
Makes you slightly MAD, though.
I don't see any point to Knife Master on Catfolk. Vicious Claws and Claw Pounce are a fantastic combo. Like you noted, you can make a decent natural attacker. With a level in Snakebite Striker you can actually start with that combo and get a higher Sneak Attack next level. Might as well take Rake, Thug, or Swashbuckler instead. The only case I wouldn't do this is if I dropped Scout. Scout's Charge with Catfolk racial and Claw Pounce will really let you travel and strike making natural attacks aces.
If you do go Arcane Trickster, I would go Snakebite Striker and Sorcerer for the BaB and Cha bonus. Wizard isn't bad though, comes down to preference.
We've searched for a ruling on that and I believe it's up to DM discretion. We decided that "a full round attack" would all fall under surprise.
The rule is in the invisibility spell itself.
If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.
true, but is the sneak good for no attacks, one attack or a full attack? I can see it ruled all three ways.
wouldn't the rogue attack, become visible, but the opponent be considered flat-footed vs. the rogue since it's now in a surprise situation?
And like I said, the Sneak Attack feat takes care of all of that for you.
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wouldn't the rogue attack, become visible, but the opponent be considered flat-footed vs. the rogue since it's now in a surprise situation?
No, because the rules are quite clear on what a surprise round is. They are quite clear on invisibility too.
You need Greater Invisibility for full-attacks.
I guess I'm not seeing that in the rules.
Rogue enters a room invisible and moves to within 5' of enemy. rogue waits 1 round, then takes a 5' step and makes an attack. enemy is surprised. enemy has not yet acted therefore enemy is flat-footed. rogue can make a full round attack with sneak attack, since he did not take a move action this round and is going before the flat-footed enemy.
If the rogue has "Surprise attack" he can still make a full round sneak attack even if by some miracle the enemy predicts him becoming visible and acts before the rogue because the enemy is still considered flat-footed.
I see nothing in the rules stopping that.
I guess I'm not seeing that in the rules.
Rogue enters a room invisible and moves to within 5' of enemy. rogue waits 1 round, then takes a 5' step and makes an attack. enemy is surprised. enemy has not yet acted therefore enemy is flat-footed. rogue can make a full round attack with sneak attack, since he did not take a move action this round and is going before the flat-footed enemy.
If the rogue has "Surprise attack" he can still make a full round sneak attack even if by some miracle the enemy predicts him becoming visible and acts before the rogue because the enemy is still considered flat-footed.I see nothing in the rules stopping that.
This doesn't belong here at all, but whatever. I don't know the proper etiquette for this.
I think you have a critical misunderstanding of the surprise round. During the surprise round being invisible usually doesn't help as the Rogue will almost always get Sneak Attack anyways since opponents are usually flat-footed during the surprise round. During the surprise round you may only make a single standard or move action. This does not allow for a full-round attack. You can only ever get off one attack during the surprise round.
After the surprise round is over the first real round begins, which is the first time you can make a full-round attack. If your opponent beats your initiative they can bugger off, which is where Scout and Claw Pounce become an excellent combo. If they don't you can make a full-round attack. If you did not attack during the surprise round you are still invisible, but the moment you roll your first attack invisibility immediately breaks. Ergo, only your first attack ever benefits from invisibility. And if you were a good rogue that got close you only ever get 1 attack with it which is why surprise attack isn't that great without an ability that explicately lets you take a full-round attack during the surprise round. (Of which I do not believe there is one for Paizo.)
OK, I'll re-read the stuff on surprise round.
However, I think invisibility is open to interpretation.
It says immediately after you "attack" you become visible. I can see where that can be interpreted as "a full attack" since that is "an attack" or after a single attack as part of a "full attack".
OK, I'll re-read the stuff on surprise round.
However, I think invisibility is open to interpretation.
It says immediately after you "attack" you become visible. I can see where that can be interpreted as "a full attack" since that is "an attack" or after a single attack as part of a "full attack".
That's reasonable, but wrong. A Full Attack option that explisately states it allows multiple attacks.
So, yea, your premise is based on messing up several rules.
This seems to be a somewhat pointless debate...
What is the rest of your party?
With their dependence on flanking to get sneak attacks, party make up and teamwork & tactics are particularly noteworthy when discussing rogues.
We've got a quite large party, all 13th level. The character I'm building is my spare character: it'll only come into play when Kjell, my current character, meets his demise.
The current characters in our campaign are:
- Boris, an Imperial barbarian (13), a front-line fighter
- Daiwadee, a Redguard monk (11) / inquisitor (2), completely focused on archery
- Scipio, an Imperial bard (13) (arcane duelist), a front-line fighter
- Uleni, a Dunmer paladin (13) (holy light+ sacred shield) (temporarily fallen from grace; trying to atone), a front-line fighter
- Verash Niri, a Breton sorcerer (7) / dragonborn (6), a blaster
- Kjell (me), a Nord oracle (13) (wind mystery), a buffer and spy
Most of these characters have an open profile on toepoel.eu, where you can view them.
And yes, I know that when my current charecter should die, there'll hardly be any healing capacity left in the group (our bard and our broken paladin).