Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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** spoiler omitted **
As for saving throw deaths, I don't mind them, with one exception: Phantasmal Killer. It's just such a cheap shot. Sure, it requires two saves, but it's the typical Rogue killer, as it targets both saves a Rogue is crap at. We once followed 15 feet behind a trapfinding Alchemist. Alchemist suddenly dropped dead, we failed our Spellcrafts. We didn't know what killed it. We dragged the poor sap back with a rope and revive him. He explains it was a Phantasmal Killer, we avoid that corridor. It's a cheap spell that can hose characters with bad luck. I lost my Barbarian because of it, through sheer bad luck. Of course I failed my Will save (though it is decent), had to rely on my +10 Fort to carry me through. DC was 18 or so. I rolled a 3. I got a reroll. Another 3. I'm dead.
Other things that target saves are fine, IMHO. Poisons are annoying, but there's usually a cure for that, and it doesn't kill you outright. Confusion is also nasty, but workable.
I don't really like crits. As a player, they're super cool, but become a cheap way of fighting once you can afford Keen weapons. At that point, it's just a matter of "do I crit or not?" which sort of kills the excitement for me, especially if you're playing a Magus. When it's used against players, it's even worse. It's a cheap way of accidentally and unintentionally killing players. There are some ways around it, but not much (Jingasa doesn't work if you're still flat-footed, Fortification is pricey if you want it to be reliable). Most of the character deaths I've seen were because of crits. Hell, I critted a level 1 character with a Large Earth Breaker during Legacy of the Stonelords. That's way too much damage for him to handle. Crits are cool, I think, but it often leads to feelbad moments. A 19-20 crit range is fine, but anything higher than a x3 modifier (and maybe even a x3 mod itself) is just overkill when used against players, especially when used by (N)PCs who are specced on using it. And it feels even worse when it's just a random chance. You didn't die because of an epic struggle, but because of sheer bad luck. There wasn't anything you could do about it. That feels terrible.
Twice I had PCs die at my table due to another PC's spell. I think it was the same summoner both times. He casts a Create Pit, and someone fighting the bad guys, despite warnings, stands on the edge fighting a monster. PC drops to negative hit points and unconsciousness, and then next round fails save dropping into the pit dealing yet more damage and death.
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I have experienced two PC deaths, both by the same character though I had enough gold and PP to revive her both times. I think my experiences match some of the common themes that other people have been talking about in this thread.
The first death was due to a failed save. The bad guy cast a big area damage spell, when Cat was already an pretty low hit points. She's partly a rogue, so she has a pretty good reflex save and evasion - full damage was going to kill her, but there was a pretty good chance of taking 0. Except I rolled a 4 on the saving throw, and then used my shirt re-roll to roll a 3.
The second was just from trying to get in some sneak attack damage when I should have been hanging back out of reach of the heavy hitters. It was a little bit bad tactics on my part, and a little bit bad party balance. We were a four person group without much of a front line melee presence so I was trying to step up and contribute more melee with a character that is not really built for that. From that death, I at least have the cool story of being raised from the dead thousands of years before I died.
The closest I have come to killing a PC when I was GMing was from critting an already injured first level character . . . but then I rolled a 1 and a 3 on my 2d8, and barely even knocked him unconscious.
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I've had one death in five characters so far - down to a max damage negative channeling cleric at first level... not a good time at all. not many characters have 12 hp, especially when all but one of us failed our save.
I haven't killed anyone as GM yet. I likely missed killing my wife's 5th level ranger by 1 (rolled a 17) with a certain magus, and dropped her to negatives the next round, but the party got there in time. I nearly TPK'd a party in MotFF with some undead due to terrible rolls.
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I've had 2 character deaths:
2: Bronze House Repraisal - Failed saves vs. Phantasmal Killer.
So yeah. 100% of my PC deaths are by save-or-die stuff.
And I've TPKed a party in Quest for Perfection 1: Edge of Heaven because rage, +10 to hit, and an extra 1d6 cold damage against a party of level 1 charcters will kind of do that.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Right. Should've said "most characters."
And that Quest for Perfection 1 thing... Yeah, that's a powerhouse. The entire scenario is a cakewalk, up to that point. I decided to play him less optimal, just to give my players a fair chance. Still dropped three-quarters of the party, but they survived. That thing has way too much HP, to-hit and damage output for a party of that level.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Right. Should've said "most characters."
And that Quest for Perfection 1 thing... Yeah, that's a powerhouse. The entire scenario is a cakewalk, up to that point. I decided to play him less optimal, just to give my players a fair chance. Still dropped three-quarters of the party, but they survived. That thing has way too much HP, to-hit and damage output for a party of that level.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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B) Another was a party of all melee martial characters and a couple of encounters pretty much required ranged weapon or spells.There's no excuse for this one. If you can't afford a bow or crossbow, then javelins and slings are dirt cheap.
Javelins, slings, crossbows, and bows are entirely useless in a lot of scenarios that require ranged weaponry. Like I usually carry a handcrossbow to trigger Painful Stare but on a fundamental level that isn't a ranged attack.
I'm not one of those people who gets upset because "you didn't build your character right." Personally I think dealing with the effects of a failed save are one of the things that make the game more interesting. So if your character fails a save that you could have prevented, it's OK. Chalk it up to a learning...
It annoys me a bit because the save systems seems to favor magic users as to how you can avoid it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Due to a similar thread, I started keeping track of my kills as a GM. Since I didn't start keeping track for my first 2 years in PFS, some of the below is based on recollection and may not be 100% accurate. I count 26 kills so far out of 141 games run.
1) Crit with Great Axe against low level character (Ledford Kills!)
2) Crit with Great Axe against low level character (Ledford Kills!)
3) Crit with flying, flaming, true striked Great Axe against low level character.
4) Unholy Blight spamming Erynies against a good outsider character.
5) Party had to fight a battle against monsters with reach in an enclosed area. The monsters had DR silver and the only silver the party had was a dagger and some arrows. Nearest thing I have had to a TPK, but there was only 1 death due to bleeding out.
6) Crit from a long spear wielded by an ogre.
7) Pouncing Tiger hit with all 5 attacks, one of which was a crit.
8) Slammed down by a nasty statue.
9) Skewered by a spear from a power attacking merrow.
10) Death by party metagaming as the party felt for sure one of their incapacitated members was safe due to the 'no coup-de-gras unless specified in the mod rule.' The mod specified otherwise.
11) High level Vampiric Touch against a low level wizard playing in the high tier of the mod.
12) Barbarian beatdown against a caster that hadn't had a chance to buff himself yet.
13) Mauled by a Mythic Vrock.
14) Torn to shreds by a bunch of advanced giant scorpions.
15) Dusted by a mummy
16) Squished by a Marut
17) Also squished by the same Marut
18) Magic-missiled to death by a high level caster in a midlevel mod.
19) The party tried to run past a nasty robot at low level. The dwarf didn't make it.
20) Critted by a King Cobra.
21) Beat down by a very nasty demonic elemental
22) Beat down by the same very nasty demonic elemental
23) Party triggered an encounter with a nasty guardian statue. One of them died.
24) After the above party succeeded in running away from the nasty guardian, they returned to the location and went to a different area but trigged an encounter with the same guardian statue again. One of them died. This time they didn't come back after they ran away.
25) Eaten by Brain Spiders
26) Also eaten by Brain Spiders
Based on observations of deaths at tables I have been at and heard about, the leading causes of character deaths in PFS are:
1) Crits
2) Barely qualifying to have to play the high tier (example: APL 7.75 in a 5-9 mod).
3) GM mistakes (While I think players make more mistakes than GMs, the consequences of GM mistakes tend to be greater and the mistakes tend to not get caught until it is too late to do anything about it).
4) Player mistakes (don't know how to play their character, made a poor tactical decision, picked a fight they shouldn't have, forgot they had the one thing that could have saved their butts, etc.).
5) Killer GMs (GMs that bend, if not brake, the GM guidelines in order to provide a more challenging experience).
Death by Save or Die has not been a common cause of PC deaths in my experience.
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I do not know how much of it is reporting bias, but I hearing a lot of death by one or two bad rolls. I am not sure what that means though.
Usually means that you roll bad when a good roll, maybe even only one or two numbers higher, would have meant survival.
Example, although this is actually a "good" roll, just not "good enough".
Magus, +3 init, caught in a cavern, monsters sneaking around.
Surprise round, one of the critters moved up on the Magus.
Magus rolled an 18 for Init, total 21.
Monster rolled a 16 for Init, total 21.
Monster, due to rules, goes first, against the flatfooted Magus.
Three natural attacks, plus sneak attack, for three hits.
After the first two hits, Magus is down to 3 hit points.
Third hit, of course, is a crit, confirms due to crappy flatfooted AC.
Well past dead, of course.
So, encounter happens, PC dies without being able to do anything but track damage, not much fun there.
Of course, he does get better, and next level, his Init mod goes up by a bit, as he gets the Kensai initiative bonus at that time. Meh.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I do not know how much of it is reporting bias, but I hearing a lot of death by one or two bad rolls. I am not sure what that means though.
It means no one remembers the mistakes that led up to being in the situation where one roll killed them.
My father was in Rocky Mountain rescue when he was young. He observed that he never pulled anyone off a mountain side because they made a single mistake. There was always at least three mistakes that left them in the position where the final mistake stranded or killed them. But everyone always focused on that last mistake, which was often an event outside their control, rather than the earlier mistakes, which were often ignoring signs or failing to prepare, which *were* in their control.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I do not know how much of it is reporting bias, but I hearing a lot of death by one or two bad rolls. I am not sure what that means though.It means no one remembers the mistakes that led up to being in the situation where one roll killed them.
That's assuming there were mistakes because I've died five minutes into a scenario before. The only thing that could be construed as a mistake as was me picking the Mesmerist pregen but even then I don't think any of my characters would have been well off with about a half a dozen sneak attacks. The only other time I had a character "die" (Never fully died) were mistakes but that first time I couldn't do anything.
EDIT:Im surprised no one's mentioned the other weirdly common thing that is virtually the same as dying. Getting arrested. Not sure how common it is but I've come across quite a few scenarios where either I got arrested or the potential was there.
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I've had two character deaths. It was the same character both times. The first death was a crit from a demon's great axe that dropped me from full hp into negatives, followed up by a gore attack that finished me off. The demon had no other adjacent target so what else would it do against a paladin?
The same character died permanently to a succession of crappy dice rolls. Failed saves against shadow evocations that I would have passed on a 5 or 6, combined with two rounds worth of low rolls on lay-on-hands, and then falling 60feet because I couldn't roll a 3 on a climb check. I'd still have survived the fall if the GM had rolled average damage but his dice were savage. It was an awful run of bad luck, but still I'd have survived if I'd had two ranks of climb or bought a snapleaf.
My favorite kill as a GM remains something where the player successfully saved, but showed the glory of that d6 hit die. maximized fireball, quickened magic missile. Yes, he made the save vs the fireball. He was level 11 or 12, I think. That was earlier this month.This sounds very disturbing. Was this in Society play, campaign mode, or a module?
PFS sanctioned module.
** spoiler omitted **
It's been warned several times that that module and Bonekeep, are MEANT to be PC grinding machines. Much more so than the average PFS scenario or sanctioned module.
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I've only managed to kill PCs to damage when GMing. If falling damage counts, that is.
One was a Kyra at level 7 getting caught between two teleporting, sneak-attacking enemies, because she was closest to where they came from.
One was one character failing against the environment and falling to their death at level 1 or 2, and I even gave them more than one save to try and catch something as they fall (which the module suggested).
My own PCs have been part of many of the TPKs or otherwise difficult sessions that Muser and Rei have already listed. Mostly it's been damage, though I cannot remember whether the paladin failed their saves or not before the spells from the half-fiend.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Personally, I have had 4 character deaths.
The first was do to a combination of problems that included just barely qualifying for the tier we played, bad decisions on the part of other party members, a failed save against Confusion, and one particularly inept ranger who thought it was a good idea, when we were fighting an 11th level wizard, to spend the majority of the battle hitting himself with a wand of cure light wounds instead of shooting the wizard. This wasn't a TPK only because the fighter managed to run away after being turned into a squirrel.
The second was a combination of us going into a known highly challenging scenario that had just come out (so we didn't actually realize it was a tough scenario going in) and poor party composition (there weren't enough casters in a scenario that really wanted you to have casters). There were also some GM errors but these were clearly not intentional and I am pretty sure he made some errors in our favor, as well.
The other two, unfortunately, were due to adversarial GMing where the GM went out of his way to make highly suspect rulings to make the adventures more difficult than they were meant to be.
There was technically a 5th death, but the GM negated it after he realized he had run 2 things wrong that had gotten me killed.
I'm not worried about dying to a single failed save. Rerolls are like $10, after all....
I feel that it primarily comes down to attitude and preparation. Assuming an equal level of system mastery players that are alright with their characters dying occasionally will build and play more aggressively than a player who is resolute not to die. There is no right way to play but there is a right way to play to survive.
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My first death was due to weak character builds, combined with robot beat down, combined with bad luck on the dice. It is a blessing in disguise that those characters (mine included) died at lvl 3, so that they did not go on to endanger more experienced field agents. The part that really hurt was that I'd just finished modelling and painting that miniature...
The second character death was a pre-gen that got hit by an Elemental Blast followed by a Cone of Cold. It sucked but it was a good warning for building future characters that bad things would happen to them without mercy, and that in PFS you will fight enemies that fight dirty.
As an aside, is it a Spellcraft check or a Knowledge Local check to know that you've been hit by an Elemental Blast and are now vulnerable to an element?
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My first death was due to weak character builds, combined with robot beat down, combined with bad luck on the dice. It is a blessing in disguise that those characters (mine included) died at lvl 3, so that they did not go on to endanger more experienced field agents. The part that really hurt was that I'd just finished modelling and painting that miniature...
And, this, IME, is one of the most common causes of character death, usually permanent character death.
"Hey, guys, I just finished painting my customized mini for my PC. Let's play!"
...
"Gosh, I only got to use my newly painted mini for my PC once, and now he is perma-dead."
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And, this, IME, is one of the most common causes of character death, usually permanent character death."Hey, guys, I just finished painting my customized mini for my PC. Let's play!"
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"Gosh, I only got to use my newly painted mini for my PC once, and now he is perma-dead."
*gets very, very nervous for his bard and his barbarian, both who just got brand new minis out of the Rusty Dragon set...*
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*gets very, very nervous for his bard and his barbarian, both who just got brand new minis out of the Rusty Dragon set...*
And, this, IME, is one of the most common causes of character death, usually permanent character death."Hey, guys, I just finished painting my customized mini for my PC. Let's play!"
...
"Gosh, I only got to use my newly painted mini for my PC once, and now he is perma-dead."
It's ok Wei Ji. Just don't start liking Venture Captains/Mission givers or something bad will happen to them.
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It's been warned several times that that module and Bonekeep, are MEANT to be PC grinding machines. Much more so than the average PFS scenario or sanctioned module.My favorite kill as a GM remains something where the player successfully saved, but showed the glory of that d6 hit die. maximized fireball, quickened magic missile. Yes, he made the save vs the fireball. He was level 11 or 12, I think. That was earlier this month.This sounds very disturbing. Was this in Society play, campaign mode, or a module?
PFS sanctioned module.
** spoiler omitted **
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I do not know how much of it is reporting bias, but I hearing a lot of death by one or two bad rolls. I am not sure what that means though.Usually means that you roll bad when a good roll, maybe even only one or two numbers higher, would have meant survival.
Example, although this is actually a "good" roll, just not "good enough".
Magus, +3 init, caught in a cavern, monsters sneaking around.
Surprise round, one of the critters moved up on the Magus.
Magus rolled an 18 for Init, total 21.
Monster rolled a 16 for Init, total 21.
Monster, due to rules, goes first, against the flatfooted Magus.
Three natural attacks, plus sneak attack, for three hits.
After the first two hits, Magus is down to 3 hit points.
Third hit, of course, is a crit, confirms due to crappy flatfooted AC.
Well past dead, of course.
So, encounter happens, PC dies without being able to do anything but track damage, not much fun there.Of course, he does get better, and next level, his Init mod goes up by a bit, as he gets the Kensai initiative bonus at that time. Meh.
That reminds me of our party in the final encounter of the last Eyes of the Ten adventure. Mild weapon spoilers, will put in tags anyway.
It was insane how many 20s that guy rolled. Made for a really memorable fight, though.
So yeah, randomly getting dropped because of crits suck. It's part of the system, and most of the time the PCs abuse it way more than NPCs, but still. I'd rather just get rid of the crit rule. Less flavourful/fun, but more balanced, I guess. Natural 1s are cool, though, those are funny.
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Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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Let's see, my deaths:
Monk pincushioned by a high-op archer when said archer failed a confusion save. Said archer paid for the res. (Gravity bow crits hurt, never mind the rest of the full attack.)
2 different characters, paladin and ranger killed in 2 different scenarios by Babau sneak attack longspear crits.
Playtest swashbuckler killed by trying to stand up while threatened by a certain NPC magus and dispatched with a rapier crit. (Playtest version didn't have the kip up deed.)
Low-HP bloodrager got crit by a ranger boss with me as its favored enemy.
In fact, the only one that didn't involve critical hits was my Str-dumped summoner who went up a gainst a shadow at level 1.
But I have no ill will against the critical hit mechanics, especially because of how satisfying it can be to confirm on a tetsubo or firearm crit in a dire situation.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Another thought is to replace the current system with crits just causes max damage.
I like that, actually. No more massive damage spikes out of nowhere, and people will finally stop carrying around "optimized" weapons such as falcatas. It will turn lots of x3 weapons into more boring items, but I don't see why a greataxe also shouldn't be a 19-20 weapon.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Another thought is to replace the current system with crits just causes max damage.I like that, actually. No more massive damage spikes out of nowhere, and people will finally stop carrying around "optimized" weapons such as falcatas. It will turn lots of x3 weapons into more boring items, but I don't see why a greataxe also shouldn't be a 19-20 weapon.
This would require a much greater change to the rules than one might think. There is a large variety of weapons in Pathfinder and many of them are only distinguished from one another by their threat range and crit multiplier. Take those away and a lot of weapons become pointless and redundant. Max damage also makes things like Kukris nearly pointless as they do max damage 25% of the time anyway. 4E had a compromise to this, but I found it less than satisfying. If we were to rebuild weapons from the ground up I would prefer something like all crits doing double damage (most PC crit deaths I have seen came from x3 or x4 crit weapons). Weapons could be differentiated by their threat range and perhaps by giving some of them bonus to confirm crits in compensation for higher crit multipliers.
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This would require a much greater change to the rules than one might think. There is a large variety of weapons in Pathfinder and many of them are only distinguished from one another by their threat range and crit multiplier. Take those away and a lot of weapons become pointless and redundant. Max damage also makes things like Kukris nearly pointless as they do max damage 25% of the time anyway. 4E had a compromise to this, but I found it less than satisfying. If we were to rebuild weapons from the ground up I would prefer something like all crits doing double damage (most PC crit deaths I have seen came from x3 or x4 crit weapons). Weapons could be differentiated by their threat range and perhaps by giving some of them bonus to confirm crits in compensation for higher crit multipliers.Another thought is to replace the current system with crits just causes max damage.I like that, actually. No more massive damage spikes out of nowhere, and people will finally stop carrying around "optimized" weapons such as falcatas. It will turn lots of x3 weapons into more boring items, but I don't see why a greataxe also shouldn't be a 19-20 weapon.
True, it would be more of a suggestion for the next edition, if/when that happens. I guess it works for 13th Age because your damage is determined more by your class then your weapon.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Since 4E they've been playing around with giving some weapons a higher to-hit bonus for proficiency than others. Which isn't the craziest idea.
Personally I wouldn't mind a strongly consolidated weapon table, where you have say 20 statblocks for melee weapons and many marginally different weapons just use the same statblock. That makes it much easier to engineer things so that each of those 20 statblocks really has something different going for it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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As for saving throw deaths, I don't mind them, with one exception: Phantasmal Killer. It's just such a cheap shot.
I find this somewhat humorous. D&D used to be chock full of Save or Die effects. Poison didn't do ability damage, it just killed you when you failed the save. Slay Living didn't do a ton of damage when you failed your save, it outright killed you. Even non-magical traps could have save or die effects. Pathfinder did away with most of that. Phantasmal Killer was a compromise to that, giving you two saving throws (instead of one) and two different types so that you didn't die from just having one bad save. So I find it rather ironic that it is now being referred to as a cheap shot.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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It's pretty much the only cheap shot left, as far as I can tell. And again, it's the Rogue-killer. Rogues get sent into empty rooms to see if it's trapped. It targets the two saves Rogues are terrible at, and both stats the saves depend on aren't that important for them. Most Rogues go with high DEX, so their Reflex saves are usually way up there. They need to have a decent CON to survive combat, so let's say 14 CON. That's a +3 or +4 on your saving throw when you first start encountering Phantasmal Killers. And Will saves are usually pretty terrible, because there isn't much left in point-buy. Let's also say 14, max. Again, a +3 or +4 versus a spell effect that should at least be DC 16. That's a 60% chance of failure per die roll. I've tried the math, but I suck at it, so I won't show it, but even in my example, the odds are terrible.
Saying "it used to be much worse" isn't a good argument, IMHO. It still sucks to just fall dead because of it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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It's pretty much the only cheap shot left, as far as I can tell. And again, it's the Rogue-killer. Rogues get sent into empty rooms to see if it's trapped. It targets the two saves Rogues are terrible at, and both stats the saves depend on aren't that important for them. Most Rogues go with high DEX, so their Reflex saves are usually way up there. They need to have a decent CON to survive combat, so let's say 14 CON. That's a +3 or +4 on your saving throw when you first start encountering Phantasmal Killers. And Will saves are usually pretty terrible, because there isn't much left in point-buy. Let's also say 14, max. Again, a +3 or +4 versus a spell effect that should at least be DC 16. That's a 60% chance of failure per die roll. I've tried the math, but I suck at it, so I won't show it, but even in my example, the odds are terrible.
Saying "it used to be much worse" isn't a good argument, IMHO. It still sucks to just fall dead because of it.
Personally I think this is just as much a design problem with Rogues as it is a problem with the spell. It's bad enough that they are a class with only 1 good save, but that one good save is based on their primary stat, which means it would be good without being your good save.
The only people I have seen die to Phantasmal Killer were characters with a low Will and a high Fort who just happened to roll really bad on the Fort.
Also note that a 60% chance of failure on a single die roll means only a 36% chance of failing both and a 21.6% chance if you throw in your free reroll (not including GM stars).
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Still means over a third of the average Rogues will die from that trap. Most traps are designed as resource taxes, or warning systems. You trigger a trap, you take some damage. Fine. Costs me a few wand taps or potions, but I'll live. A failed PK puts me out of commission, possibly forever. I'd be okay if I'd encountered traps like this around level 10 or so, when you have a decent chance of making it, and where Raise Dead is a dent in your money, but not the end of the world. But I've encountered them at level 4 and 5, and that's just mean.
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yeah.... We had a character hit that 21.6% last week... it was an uncomfortable moment for me, because as a player I had once had an illusionist in that players campaign, and while built around Phantasmal killer I had almost no kills to my name, and with the GM/Player role reversed and the scenario run as written (no lethal spells until the players bring out lethal damage first) it was a bit of an award moment when he flubbed both rolls and the re-roll.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Still means over a third of the average Rogues will die from that trap. Most traps are designed as resource taxes, or warning systems. You trigger a trap, you take some damage. Fine. Costs me a few wand taps or potions, but I'll live. A failed PK puts me out of commission, possibly forever. I'd be okay if I'd encountered traps like this around level 10 or so, when you have a decent chance of making it, and where Raise Dead is a dent in your money, but not the end of the world. But I've encountered them at level 4 and 5, and that's just mean.
No. An average Rogue can detect and remove that trap before it's even triggered. That's what they do. Thus, the actual chance of a Rogue dying to a Phantasmal Killer trap is much less than is indicated simply by their saves. If you built a Rogue that can't do that, then don't complain about the down side of that choice.
If the issue were casters using Phantasmal Killer I might understand this. But a Rogue complaining about weak saves against a trap just seems rather silly since they have a much greater chance of not having to make the save in the first place than other classes.
My advice is to invest in Trap Spotter and Eyes of the Eagle for a Rogue.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I've seen loads of Rogues with decent to bad Perception checks. WIS isn't very useful for them as it's not a casting stat, so it's only going to be average, if not dumped because other stats need it more, and why would Rogues be better at spotting traps? That plus half level on Perception? A Druid can match that easily, as it's both a class skill and a main stat. And magic traps are pretty hard to spot. This was a DC 29 on level 6, both to perceive and disable. Say, 6 ranks in Perception, 3 from being a class skill, and +2 WIS. That's a +11 Peception you're rocking. Fifteen percent chance of spotting that thing. Okay, he didn't invest in Eyes of the Eagle or somesuch, but still.
Oh yeah, Trapfinding trait. Another +3. 30% chance of even seeing it. 55% if you have the Eyes. It's weird how Rogues get typecast as the trapspotters when a Druid, Monk, Inquisitor, and maybe Hunter, Ranger and Gunslinger can easily meet those, maybe even beat them, because of spell support. Rogues are typecast as "trapfinders" while a slew of other classes can easily outrank him if they tried. And yet the stereotype persists, because Rogues are the "trap guys." Ironically, Druids are way better trap guys, as they have the stats to see them, and can Summon Nature's Ally to set the traps off (assuming no automatic reset), but they don't get any flak for it. They even have better saves, except for DEX and the "save-for-half" bit. A Druid would shrug off a Phantasmal Killer way easier and be better at resisting poisons. Ironically, the AoE traps rarely kill anyone, and only provide a drain on resources. It's the Fort and Will saves you have to look out for.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I've seen loads of Rogues with decent to bad Perception checks. WIS isn't very useful for them as it's not a casting stat, so it's only going to be average, if not dumped because other stats need it more, and why would Rogues be better at spotting traps? That plus half level on Perception? A Druid can match that easily, as it's both a class skill and a main stat. And magic traps are pretty hard to spot. This was a DC 29 on level 6, both to perceive and disable. Say, 6 ranks in Perception, 3 from being a class skill, and +2 WIS. That's a +11 Peception you're rocking. Fifteen percent chance of spotting that thing. Okay, he didn't invest in Eyes of the Eagle or somesuch, but still.
Oh yeah, Trapfinding trait. Another +3. 30% chance of even seeing it. 55% if you have the Eyes. It's weird how Rogues get typecast as the trapspotters when a Druid, Monk, Inquisitor, and maybe Hunter, Ranger and Gunslinger can easily meet those, maybe even beat them, because of spell support. Rogues are typecast as "trapfinders" while a slew of other classes can easily outrank him if they tried. And yet the stereotype persists, because Rogues are the "trap guys." Ironically, Druids are way better trap guys, as they have the stats to see them, and can Summon Nature's Ally to set the traps off (assuming no automatic reset), but they don't get any flak for it. They even have better saves, except for DEX and the "save-for-half" bit. A Druid would shrug off a Phantasmal Killer way easier and be better at resisting poisons. Ironically, the AoE traps rarely kill anyone, and only provide a drain on resources. It's the Fort and Will saves you have to look out for.
Rogues are the Trap Guys because of their ability to disable traps (an ability your argument conveniently ignores) more than their ability to find them. So, yes, there may be PCs with a better chance of spotting the trap, so let them. Only the Rogue is good at disabling it. Even then, Druids and the like do not have access to Trap Spotter, which gives you a free check whenever you get within 10 feet of a trap. That alone can greatly increase your chance of finding one as long as you still check for them when you think it is appropriate.
I would argue that Reflex is indeed the least important save in PFS as the results of a failed Reflex save tend to be less disastrous than a failed Will or Fort, except for the fact that they seem to occur much more frequently, which kind of balances that out.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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.. I did not intend to shame the Rogue, it sort of happened as I typed. >_>
Agree, I left out the part where Rogues get to disable them. But I've been in several parties with different people where the Rogue always got sent into an empty room to look for traps, only to set them off themselves. And inevitably, someone else wanders into the room, rolls a Perception, and spots something the Rogue missed. My point was that it's now so ingrained that Rogues are the go-to guys for this without thinking twice.
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This was a DC 29 on level 6, both to perceive and disable. Say, 6 ranks in Perception, 3 from being a class skill, and +2 WIS. That's a +11 Peception you're rocking. Fifteen percent chance of spotting that thing.
Don't forget, you can almost always take 20 to spot traps, which in the low levels, might actually be the best course of action, since most of the DCs are going to be in the 20s, and you're not going to be able to have a stellar bonus to perception for a while. Also at low level you're not likely to have a lot of buffs going, so the extra couple minutes per room shouldn't be a huge burden.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Only the Rogue is good at disabling it.Have you missed like the last four years of releases? Alchemists, Investigatgors, Bards, Seeker Sorcerers and Oracles and plenty of others can be as good if not better than Rogues at removing traps. That's before you even get into the issue of many Rogue archetypes trading away trapfinding.
Pretty much any Int based character can easily invest in disable, its not as if its exclusive to Rogues and they are liable to have skill points to spare. Spells like Aram Zey's Focus and Pilfering Hand add insult to injury.
No, my 'only rogue' comment was a direct response to the classes listed as being good at spotting traps. Ergo, the others you mentioned were irrelevant to this statement. As are rogues that choose not to be good at finding and disabling traps. Remember, this discussion is about a Phantasmal Killer Trap's ability to kill a Rogue. Your arguments diverge from that.