The new rules for faerie fire and darkness prevent that classic combo to work for spell-like abilities. How can we make it works again for drows?
The far i went is the old 3.5E notes saying low level drows cast darkness, and deeper darkness, with a lower CL. But i don't know how low CL would work for that. Anyway, it makes me think high level drows, above level 5th, just cannot use that combo anymore, cause their darkness spells "become" more powerful.
Heighten Spell is all you need.
Heighten Spell is all you need.
Sadly not for plain drows... a drow cannot use it with his spell-like abilities.
But it works... it works...
Well, there is a quicken spell like ability monster only feat.
It wouldn't take much work for a GM to say there is a heighten spell like ability monster only feat to enable this concept for drow specifically.
Drow have darkvision why would they need to use Faerie Fire?
|
The new rules for faerie fire and darkness prevent that classic combo to work for spell-like abilities. How can we make it works again for drows?
I have never heard before of people using this "classic" combo. Where I play Faerie Fire has been beaten by Darkness from 3.0 onward. You use faerie dire to outline enemies in normal darkness, not in magical darkness. It is even in the text of the Faerie fire: "Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. "
|
|
Drow have darkvision why would they need to use Faerie Fire?
In the 1st and 2nd edition it gave a to hit bonus in low light and darkness conditions. Now? It negate invisibility, blur and displacement, all stuff that is irrelevant if you can't see.
Maybe the idea is that you will clearly see your enemies thank to darkvision and beat those effects with faerie fire.
I have never heard before of people using this "classic" combo.The new rules for faerie fire and darkness prevent that classic combo to work for spell-like abilities. How can we make it works again for drows?
I think it is a combo from the 1e, 2e eras.
|
|
I think it is a combo from the 1e, 2e eras.I have never heard before of people using this "classic" combo.The new rules for faerie fire and darkness prevent that classic combo to work for spell-like abilities. How can we make it works again for drows?
2nd edition AD&D: darkness 15' radius block all light sources unless light or continual light is used to cancel it.
My 1st edition books are in the cellar, so I can't check them, but I am 99,99% sure that the text is identical.
So no, it didn't worked in 1st or 2nd edition.
Hmmm...
Spell-Like Abilities: All of their spell-like abilities focus on controlling the light and visibility. Dancing lights is a functional cantrip and easily dismissed. However their other spell-like abilities merit a deeper look. Darkness creates an area of shadowy illumination, impenetrable to darkvision or low-light vision. By itself, it's an interesting option and most useful when the drow are encountered in an area familiar to them, but foreign to their opponents. The final spell-like ability drow have pairs superbly with darkness. Drow are clever enough to place their faerie fire spells to good advantage, outlining the player characters and making them easy targets. (Though DMs should note that darkness will affect faerie fire's ability to work if it's a 2nd-level or higher effect; a drow's spell-like abilities have a caster level equal to the drow's class levels.)
With darkvision(PF rules) it's not needed. In 3.5 darkvision didn't bypass magical darkness.
Yes, i'm realizing it. Maybe the new usage of darkness and deeper darkness is to allow drows to attack surface humanoids during day, attack heavy illuminated underground places, and so on. They use the faerie fire in the opposite situation, under natural dim light and darkness to remove concealment from enemies and remove their stealth abilities.
Or i have to rant againt one of my first GMs... nah... he played it well, very well. He used a natural fog instead darkness then faerie fire.
I'd have to get those book about that drow with two scimitars.
|
|
Drow have darkvision why would they need to use Faerie Fire?In the 1st and 2nd edition it gave a to hit bonus in low light and darkness conditions. Now? It negate invisibility, blur and displacement, all stuff that is irrelevant if you can't see.
Maybe the idea is that you will clearly see your enemies thank to darkvision and beat those effects with faerie fire.
There's still Deeper Darkness, which Noble Drow (both the "Noble Drow" base race and the feat chain) can use as Spell-Like.
So, keeping Faerie Fire active on your enemies while they're in Deeper Darkness would allow you to keep even enemies with Darkvision blind (and everyone down there has Darkvision, so regular Darkness does nearly nothing), without suffering any miss chance yourself.
And ok, now I'm playing Rules Lawyer (I'm not that good at it, so bear with me), but...
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
[...] Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Faerie Fire doesn't increase the light level, so that doesn't apply. And Darkness can be used to counter/dispel light spells (which, I'd assume, would work like using Dispel Magic, but only for light spells), but it doesn't say it automatically does so.
Same with Deeper Darkness.Is there any statement saying that Darkness-effects automatically dispel any light effects in their area that I missed? Otherwise, "Faerie Fire keeps working fine" seems to be the rule, because the only automatic effect ("can't increase light level") isn't applicable.
/Edit: Missed it. It's in the Faerie Fire spell description:
Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally)So, you'd have to...
Faerie FireA pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles.
You know, candles, that item that was used to light up rooms and read manuscript.
If you want to see how a candle increase the light leve, it is in this table:[rul=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/additionalRules.html#table-7-10-light-sources-and-illumination]Light sources and illumination[/url]. Not by much, but they increase it.
|
|
Hmmm...
Spell-Like Abilities: All of their spell-like abilities focus on controlling the light and visibility. Dancing lights is a functional cantrip and easily dismissed. However their other spell-like abilities merit a deeper look. Darkness creates an area of shadowy illumination, impenetrable to darkvision or low-light vision. By itself, it's an interesting option and most useful when the drow are encountered in an area familiar to them, but foreign to their opponents. The final spell-like ability drow have pairs superbly with darkness. Drow are clever enough to place their faerie fire spells to good advantage, outlining the player characters and making them easy targets. (Though DMs should note that darkness will affect faerie fire's ability to work if it's a 2nd-level or higher effect; a drow's spell-like abilities have a caster level equal to the drow's class levels.)archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050719a
Bad link, but I have found the article. The problem is that the 3.5 version of darkness works very similarly to the Paizo version. It say (from the open source SRD document):
Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness [note it is not iperlinked, they aren't citing the darkness spell, but normal absence of light] (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects.
Making a guess, the guy that wrote the article confused darkness (absence of light) with darkness (the spell) and didn't checked the source. It is possible that the 3.0 version of the spell has a different text, but I doubt it.
Note that while Pathfinder is retro compatible with 3.5 and 3.0 it isn't a 100% identity. it is always a good idea to check how the rules work now and if something has changed when you try to apply interpretations of old rules.
Making a guess, the guy that wrote the article confused darkness (absence of light) with darkness (the spell) and didn't checked the source. It is possible that the 3.0 version of the spell has a different text, but I doubt it.
Note that while Pathfinder is retro compatible with 3.5 and 3.0 it isn't a 100% identity. it is always a good idea to check how the rules work now and if something has changed when you try to apply interpretations of old rules.
I was not trying to use those rules, but trying to state that at least there's one reference of people using the darkness + faerie fire combo in the past. Afaik some book also described that tactic.
But considering that drows in PF are not the same drows as previous version drows, we can adapt to the change.
...it doesn't work either way.Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally)
Yes, lowering its level, making it a lvl 1 spell, somehow (that's the question), allows the outlining to suppress the concealment in the area.
But some people said Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud would work instead...
|
|
...it doesn't work either way.Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally)
Yes, lowering its level, making it a lvl 1 spell, somehow (that's the question), allows the outlining to suppress the concealment in the area.
But some people said Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud would work instead...
That phrase is a bit inconvenient. Normally it is "a effect with the Darkness descriptor that is of higher level than the effect with the Light descriptor functions normally". So using highten spell on faerie fire would have it work against a normal darkness spell. But it explicitly say that level 2+ effects block its light.
RAW hightening it would do nothing.AFAIK there is no way to lower the level of Darkness.
- * -
Obscuring Mist
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet.A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
...
Fog Cloud
A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet .A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can't use sight to locate the target).
No, decidedly FF don't help against Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, like it don't help if there is a wall between you and the target.
It can help with natural fog, that is less thick that the magical generated one.
If you just want to use the tactic I would just houserule the FF into an SU that does work in against darkness, but by the rules it won't work.
I've thought about doing something like that so the drow can attack from farther out than 60 feet.
It would keep the normal drow below drow nobles, but still have them above elves, and in the older game editions they were supposed to be more dangerous than normal elves.
Obscuring Mist
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet.A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
...
Fog Cloud
A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet .A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can't use sight to locate the target).No, decidedly FF don't help against Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, like it don't help if there is a wall between you and the target.
It can help with natural fog, that is less thick that the magical generated one.
Those spells block sight, but not light. So you can see the light of the faerie fire... maybe blurred, but you can see it. Going further, the fog would affect the faerie fire light the same way fog and dust allows us to see a laser ray.
|
|
Those spells block sight, but not light. So you can see the light of the faerie fire... maybe blurred, but you can see it. Going further, the fog would affect the faerie fire light the same way fog and dust allows us to see a laser ray.
Beside how weak is Faerie Fire (candle strength) in a tick fog you can see a light, but you will be unable to locate it or use it to pinpoint anything.
We are speaking of a fog that block all visibility beyond 5' and blur visibility under that.BTW, "block sight, but not light. So you can see the light" ...
How do you "see the light" if your sight is blocked?
Those spells block sight, but not light. So you can see the light of the faerie fire... maybe blurred, but you can see it. Going further, the fog would affect the faerie fire light the same way fog and dust allows us to see a laser ray.
Obscuring Mist
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet.A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
...
Fog Cloud
A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet .A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can't use sight to locate the target).No, decidedly FF don't help against Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, like it don't help if there is a wall between you and the target.
It can help with natural fog, that is less thick that the magical generated one.
If you don't have line of sight to the light, then you can't see the light.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I thought Drow were cunning and innovative, seems to me they would find new tactics.
So, the better question would be "what other tactics make them just as deadly"
BTW, "block sight, but not light. So you can see the light" ...
How do you "see the light" if your sight is blocked?
Because faerie fire is a magic light effect, when the darkness provided by Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist is caused by normal physical means, not by magic.
Anyway... if light wouldn't work inside fog or smoke, then parties using fog and lights are a myth.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've read all of these Drow books you are referring to, and in them Faerie fire did not "glow" while it was inside a globe of "Darkness", faerie fire was used in low-light conditions, and the Drow used blind-fighting inside the Globes of Darkness.
+1 to TxSam88.
Well, i didn't read those books. Some people told us the tales from them... but the more answers i get, the more i realize it is a misunderstanding that some masters had and... and a snowball effect.
Anyway... PF drows have some changes in their classic skillset so they feel not exactly as.. well, as drows. Pupil-less white eyes, no blind fight, no two-weapon fighting masters... hmmmm. Anyway @captain yesterday is right pointing to how to make them have new deadlier tactics.