Stacking wayang spellhunter and magical lineage traits on the same spell?

[WabbitHuntr]

Specifically casting an Empowered fireball in a 3rd level slot.

My Google-fu has not turned up an official answer.

Can anyone provide me with a link to where this is officially addressed.?

Normally stacking traits is not allowed. but I see this combo all over the forums. I understand the arguments both for and against this. . And I'm not looking to rehash an old debate. I have a character who needs to be changed if I can't find official word on this.

Thanks for the help

[Kalindlara]

I don't think there's an "official" ruling (as in, a developer explicitly saying so). If your GM wants a developer's thoughts, you could search/ask here.

[vorpaljesus]

You can do it :)

[QuidEst]

As far as I know, there is no official answer. But unless your character is from a small Tian island, you'd be fudging the rules anyway, so talk to your GM.

[Nefreet]

I see the word "official" in your post three times. If you multiply that number by 2, add your age, and then multiply by 0, you'll have the number of official answers that have been given on this combination =).

The rules for Stacking only deal with bonuses and penalties. Neither of these Traits provides a bonus or a penalty, meaning that the rules for stacking are irrelevant.

A better way to put it would be "they work together to lower the effective spell level by 2".

I am aware of nothing "official" that counters that interpretation, though.

[Kalindlara]

I'm guessing the GM wants something a little stronger than our say-so, no matter how right or wrong we are.

[vorpaljesus]

Generally if it's not officially addressed wouldn't you assume it's legal until it is officially addressed? There have already been threads about this combination. The only stipulation is that you can't use these traits to reduce the spell below its original level.

[Ascalaphus]

Each of those traits on its own is allowed, and there's no rule anyone's been able to show that stops you from using both at the same time.

That should be strong enough.

[GM Arkwright]

Yeah, GM has required an official affirmation rather than allowing it in the absence of an official negation.

[QuidEst]

GM Arkwright wrote:

Yeah, GM has required an official affirmation rather than allowing it in the absence of an official negation.

Then the answer is no, there is not one.

[Azten]

The traits don't even do the same thing, so yes, it'll work. On a fire it's not even really strong, honestly. Though I did love taking out a Succubus with Admixtue Evoker...

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

GM Arkwright wrote:

Yeah, GM has required an official affirmation rather than allowing it in the absence of an official negation.

The GM wants an official ruling that the rules work the way they're supposed to?

[Nefreet]

GM Arkwright wrote:

Yeah, GM has required an official affirmation rather than allowing it in the absence of an official negation.

What is the reasoning for the GM believing they don't work?

Usually the burden of proof is on the claimant, and I've not heard of any valid arguments barring the two Traits from working together.

[Diego Rossi]

That tiny island has a huge population of extremely gifted spellcasting families.
They are all members of the Do'Urden family?

[GM Arkwright]

I believe it's because of discomfort over the possibilities of these two traits, the spell fireball and a significant number of metamagic feats. Means he requires a better ruling about it working before he'll approve it.

On whether or not those worries are valid, I make no comment.

[Ascalaphus]

The rules are pretty clear, but the end result is so off-putting to some people that they keep looking for "there has to be a rule against this".

Which isn't really that strange. It IS a wickedly powerful combination. You can make a boringly OP character with them if you're not careful.

[Firebug]

I don't get it, it'd be like saying "Power Attack and Weapon Specialization don't stack because they are both combat feats that add damage and don't specifically say they stack".

Power attack in this case is Magical Lineage, with no restrictions on what weapon you use (no restriction on spell's level). And Weapon Specialization is Wayang Spellhunter, ie restricted to a specific weapon (spell must be 3rd or lower).

If he has a problem with Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage he should likewise have a problem with Power Attack and Weapon Specialization.

What is the worst you can do with Fireball (in this case) as a level 3 slot? Empower for free? (ignoring the controlling metas like dazing for the moment) So at level 6 Wizard you can throw a fireball that does 6d6 *1.5 damage. ~22 average damage without empower and ~32 damage with empower. So the 2 traits added about 11 damage to a single spell. Consider if you were a Crossblooded [Orc/Draconic[Red]] Sorcerer(or picked up 1 level of such) you could cast a non-empowered fireball for ... about 32 damage (and of course you can do both and average 50).

11 damage for 1 spell(though likely several times per day). A trait is worth about half a feat, a lot of people would say that those 2 traits are some of the best for casters. So lets compare that to Power Attack since its usually seen as one of the best feats for 2h fightery folk. At level 6(4, actually) Power attack is only adding 6 damage to every attack (not just a few attacks per day) and 9 damage by level 8. I'd say its pretty comparable power-level-wise. Again, does your GM have issues with Power Attack?

Edit: For the record, my only character with either of those traits used them for Acid Splash. Acid Splash for (1d3+6 acid + 1d4+1 cold)*empowered for 4 rounds, in a 1st level slot, isn't a waste of an action.

[Ascalaphus]

Persistent Metamagic is pretty nasty. On Glitterdust or Burst of Radiance for example.

Dazing Burning Arc as a level 3 spell is also nasty, you can still amp that with a Lesser Rod of Persistent Spell.

[Firebug]

There are better choices then fireball, and better choices then empower, but the OP was specifically asking about it so I made some examples.

[Gisher]

Firebug wrote:

Edit: For the record, my only character with either of those traits used them for Acid Splash. Acid Splash for (1d3+6 acid + 1d4+1 cold)*empowered for 4 rounds, in a 1st level slot, isn't a waste of an action.

Can you explain in more detail what you were doing to Acid Splash?

[Firebug]

Medium 1(Archmage): +2 damage
Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic[either cold or acid]) 1: +2 damage per die
Winter Witch 1: Frozen Caress: +1d4 cold as a swift to any spell
Spirit Guide Oracle(Winter or Waves, Lore Spirit): Freezing Spells (not that it applies to Acid Splash because no save, but for anything else I want to cast), and Lore for adding Acid Splash to the Oracle list if I plan on advancing Oracle.

Strongly considering Adding Snapdragon Fireworks to Oracle for something to do with a move action, and would trigger Freezing Spells from Frozen Caress.

False Focus for Brimstone for +1 damage, and Flask of Acid for "The spells acid lasts 1 round longer then normal". And then holding an actual flask of acid for use as a focus for another +1 damage.

Likely won't have extend spell until level 5, But level 2 1d3+6 or level 3 (1d3+6 acid +1d4+1 cold)*empowered for 2 rounds (ave total 23) is pretty good. The things that say specifically only happen once on a spell, like Intense Spells from Evoker Wizard are not being used.

Anyway, the concept is set up some ongoing effects like Snapdragon Fireworks, or Flaming Sphere/Aggressive Thundercloud that have saves to force save or stagger (freezing spells, and maybe with Rime eventually) and the use the move actions to retarget/move them around and then spend the rest of the combat throwing around Acid Splash. Haven't quite figured out what to do about the spontaneous longer casting time for.... Spontaneous Metafocus! That was it. Level 5 it is!

[Diego Rossi]

RAW it work.

Part of the problem, for me, is that most of the people coming to the forum with that combo are using "something read on Internet" as a powerful build. They tend to play "one spell wonders" without a clear knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages of doing that. When the enemies start to adapt their tactics to the notorious users of combo X with spell Y that has plagued the campaign world for many levels they often don't know what to do and feel cheated that their all powerful build has lost some of its luster.

Another problem is "the rare snowflake that is identical to thousand of other rare snowflakes" syndrome. When every spellcaster come from a specific tiny island and has parents that have developed new magics that build become boring very rapidly.

[Ascalaphus]

I personally use it for Persistent Major Image. But I've found that wizards are more fun when you prepare most spells only 1-2x and have to pick the moment when it would have the most impact.