Crafting vs. Challenge in Kingmaker


Kingmaker


For those of you who have run, or are running, Kingmaker, how has the easy ability to craft items affected the campaign? Are you finding that the encounters are too easy (especially when combined with the "5 minute work day" that is so prevalent in the AP). Are the encounters scaled up a bit to account for the likelihood of more player crafted items?

Just to be clear, I am NOT looking to eliminate crafting (or even limit it -- other than probably not allowing my players to take from the Kingdom treasury in order to craft), but rather, looking to make sure that there is still an appropriate challenge for the players. Personally, I think that the ease of crafting is a good thing for this campaign, but just want to make sure that the resources available to the party will end up being appropriate to the challenges. If need be, I can of course up the challenge of the encounters.


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I've fundamentally altered the challenges. My players do a little hexploration, but I make sure the hexes are all tied to a plot (either the metaplot or a homebrewed plot). Also, by where we are (early fourth book), the focus is solidly on international politics, rather than exploring the swamp and encountering a naga, or some other beastie.

So, yes, it's fine my players can virtually mass produce potions of Cure Light Wounds. But the real challenge isn't to kill the hydra. Instead, my players are focused on opening trade routes and preserving relationships with their neighbors.

Of course, I am running a Mythic campaign, so items are somewhat secondary.


Thanks for your thoughts pennywit. Its interesting you mention running Mythic because I am leaning toward running Mythic as well when I finally get this kicked off (in large part to allow for more adventures, content, etc. to be slipped in -- planning on scrapping XP and just telling them when they've leveled/gained mythic).

I totally get what you are saying about the intrigue/politics side too. I can absolutely see the actual combat encounters really being more of a side piece to the campaign (at least until the final book anyway). I was just curious because as much as I can see that happening, I can also see my players potentially wanting to just run to the next fight. I have a mix of players that like the RP side more and the pure dice side more, so trying to make sure my bases are covered. :)


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As someone playing in a Kingmaker campaign and assistant GMing, its not too unreasonable unless one of your players is interested in the Mythic crafting feat.
In which case, most bets are off since they can then craft everything and that can be slightly troublesome (But amazingly fun if you trust the player)

Downtime rules can be trouble as well if you're liberal with them.
Don't allow the two to combine unless you're entirely comfortable and confident with both.


BLloyd607502 wrote:

As someone playing in a Kingmaker campaign and assistant GMing, its not too unreasonable unless one of your players is interested in the Mythic crafting feat.

In which case, most bets are off since they can then craft everything and that can be slightly troublesome (But amazingly fun if you trust the player)

Downtime rules can be trouble as well if you're liberal with them.
Don't allow the two to combine unless you're entirely comfortable and confident with both.

Aye, the downtime was what I was most concerned about as it gets around the biggest standard limitation on crafting (i.e. it takes a decent amount of time in game to craft, which can be a barrier in certain campaigns). Good to hear your thoughts on this as well, thanks for sharing!


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One other thing: Keep in mind that you still have the standard limits on things you can create. Your 5th level PCs, for example, can't craft a +5 Flaming Vorpal Sword. Sure, they can craft +1 swords to their heart's content, but they can wield only one +1 sword at a time. And if they want to set up a magic-crafting business, then make them run it according to the income/downtime rules. Yes, you have +1 swords for sale. But you can't expect to sell an expensive magic sword (at a profit) every day.

My players tend to use crafting and extended downtime to prepare for specific foes. For example, after a group of fey pranksters kicked my party's tails, the alchemist specifically buckled own and cranked out Potions of See Invisibility for the whole group. I think that's less problematic.


Good points pennywit. I have to say, the fact that they will have plenty of time to engage in crafting is actually appealing to me (don't have to listen to whines about not finding that ONE item they need to make their build work, etc.) At the same time, the limitations already in place should hopefully keep it somewhat in check (though technically I think at least from a monetary aspect, they can get more loot through crafting than without). Of course, I guess if it ends up being too problematic, I can always address that through found treasure if need be.

Thanks again for all the input. I generally trust the APs/written adventures to get most things right, but I know its impossible to tailor one adventure to meet all needs without adjustments.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A good rule of thumb that I use for any campaign that has PCs with item creation feats: follow the "balanced approach" guidelines on pg. 400 of the Core Rulebook (around 25% weapons, 25% armor/protective devices, 50% on other gear). I will admit that I tend to allow less on consumable/disposable magic and non-magic gear than the 15% and 10% recommended; however, I also enforce a "no single item with a market price (not creation cost) greater than 25% of WBL" restriction beyond 7th-level.

The biggest issue with unrestricted item creation is when players dump half (or more!) of their character's WBL into a single item. This tends to make them "one-trick-ponies" (especially if they focus most of the rest of the character choices around using that one item).

Also, be cautious about custom items that use the "Use-activated or continuous" line on Table 15-29. Anything that provides continuous bonuses should be priced using the Effect portion of the table (the top), not the Spell Effect portion. Otherwise, you get continuous mage armor and continuous shield items for 2,000 gp and 8,000 gp respectively, when bracers of armor +4 are 16,000 gp and a ring of force shield is 8,500 gp.


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Gargs454 wrote:

Good points pennywit. I have to say, the fact that they will have plenty of time to engage in crafting is actually appealing to me (don't have to listen to whines about not finding that ONE item they need to make their build work, etc.) At the same time, the limitations already in place should hopefully keep it somewhat in check (though technically I think at least from a monetary aspect, they can get more loot through crafting than without). Of course, I guess if it ends up being too problematic, I can always address that through found treasure if need be.

Thanks again for all the input. I generally trust the APs/written adventures to get most things right, but I know its impossible to tailor one adventure to meet all needs without adjustments.

That and the building ownership rules can cause real trouble.

I'll put my hands up and admit that it was me that bought a slaughterhouse in our current Kingmaker campaign and due to the fact kingdom building is month-by-month and that money can be used to buy more buildings (And thus more money) by character has money in the McDuck regions.
It was honestly just a mistake to start with, ending up with both versatile crafting and lots of money. But my GM and I worked out a Gentlemans agreement on it when he pointed out that it was becoming a problem despite me just throwing most of it back into the vault, which is that most of it would be burnt on sidequests, hiring private spies to search for objects I wanted or information, ect, ect and thus give our spymaster a boost, or buildings that would give boosts to the economy rather than my personal funds and of course, healthy tithes to the poor, orphaned and so on.

It's worked out really well actually, when things go poor on the important rolls my character has a pool of intrigue, goods and influence that I can spend with a nod to assist other players, there's very little in the way of suffering in the Kingdom since I run a private welfare program (And am loved for it) and the GM can throw any plot hooks he likes on to 'Your character has heard by proxy that...'

So, all in all, my character has become Pork-Tycoon Wizard Bill Gates and everything worked out fine, it does require a lot of mutual trust though.


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Quote:
And if they want to set up a magic-crafting business, then make them run it according to the income/downtime rules. Yes, you have +1 swords for sale. But you can't expect to sell an expensive magic sword (at a profit) every day.

As covered by the downtime rules:

Roll 1d20 + Spellcraft (or take 10 if you wish), divide the result by 10.
Thats how much you earn on a daily basis.

If you wish to make it simple, assume take 10 on all daily checks, multiply it by 7. Thats how much you earn on a week. Multiply by 30, thats your monthly income.


Thanks again for the info. This really helps, especially the bit about spell effects and continuous effects. I can already see one of my players trying to argue for the cheaper argument so its good to see that potential issue ahead of time!


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Yes, there's no such thing as a custom item that's "built by the rules" if you're a player. Every one is a judgement call on behalf of the GM. The crafting rules give guidance, but the GM makes the ultimate call on feasibility and price.

That said, custom items that can cast a spell N times a day as a standard action (assuming the original spell was also a standard action) should be pretty uncontroversial. A constant Mage Armour item is obviously broken, but a custom item that casts Mage Armour twice a day at Caster Level 4, say, is a useful item with a fair price by the crafting rules IMHO. It can be dispelled, it costs an action to use if you're caught short (assuming you're even wearing the item at the time), and it doesn't cover the whole day until/unless you raise the CL or incorporate Extend or make it able to cast many times per day, all of which factor into the cost.

I've ruled in my game that you have to keep wearing the item for the duration of the spell effect, which means that if you want to have lots of buff-casting items you'll either need to stack them on the same item (paying 50% extra for most of them) or take up a lot of potentially useful slots (or pay double for slotless).

Even with sticking to standard magic items, another potentially problematic element of the crafting rules is this bit:

Quote:
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

It's not hard for players to rack up a lot more Spellcraft than the DC required to make useful items (especially since it's been clarified that the listed caster level for items is not a requirement). You might want to make some rulings or add house-rules about missing prerequisites.

I'm not sure if it's RAW, but I say that the minimum CL for an item is the minimum to cast the highest level prerequisite spell (except for enchanted weapons and armour, which have their own special rules for minimum CL). I haven't had to worry about players crafting above their level, but if it came up I'd be inclined to say that each missing level is a missing prerequisite (so a 6th level caster trying to craft something requiring a 5th level spell (minimum CL 9) would not only be missing the spell, but also the 3 level shortfall is another 3 missing prerequisites, for a total of +20 to the DC).

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