Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
I'd honestly agree with both.
Do we NEED Combat Expertise with Dirty Fighting? No. It's a heckuvalot easier, particularly if you are dealing with a more conventionally MAD Monk, to not bother with the INT 13.
On the other hand...
I've played in a Core-only (and I mean the Core book ONLY; not even the Advanced Player's Guide) Pathfinder campaign with a Monk that ended up being the primary melee combatant of the group. Long story short, when we had to fight, my guy would basically charge to the front of the battle going "Look at me! Look at me! Hit the unarmored thing in the front, not those unarmored things in the back!".
Combat Expertise came in pretty darned handy on a number of occasions.
I still prefer the brawler dip to actually taking CE. It has niche uses, but the are few and far between.
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Sigh, is everyone else missing this? Do they just not get it?
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
No, you cannot replace combat expertise except for the VERY NARROW focus of feats this works for.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: You need all the Armor Class you can get: most Monks can't wear armor, What!? Unarmored monks have the best AC in the game at higher levels - usually by level 4 - hands down.
The 3/4 BAB variety Monk has way more issues hitting things than avoiding being hit, which is just another reason why Combat Expertise is not a good feat for the class.
The Mortonator wrote: Sigh, is everyone else missing this? Do they just not get it?
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
No, you cannot replace combat expertise except for the VERY NARROW focus of feats this works for.
But the majority of the reason you would want combat expertise as a MoMS is so you can meet the requirements for Kraken/Grabbing/Snapping Turtle styles (improved grapple), Kitsune Style (improved dirty trick), smashing style (improved sunder), pummeling bully (improved reposition and trip), and for those styles it does help you avoid the 13 INT requirement so it's a good feat.
Doesn't help with Outslug style though, unfortunately.
PossibleCabbage wrote: The Mortonator wrote: Sigh, is everyone else missing this? Do they just not get it?
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
No, you cannot replace combat expertise except for the VERY NARROW focus of feats this works for.
But the majority of the reason you would want combat expertise as a MoMS is so you can meet the requirements for Kraken/Grabbing/Snapping Turtle styles (improved grapple), Kitsune Style (improved dirty trick), smashing style (improved sunder), pummeling bully (improved reposition and trip), and for those styles it does help you avoid the 13 INT requirement so it's a good feat.
Doesn't help with Outslug style though, unfortunately. Regardless of which, people are treating it like it works with any feat. It's even in the doc on feats it clearly doesn't work for.
Also, you probably don't want Kitsune style with a MoMS because it's pretty much a bad combo with other styles.
Charon's Little Helper wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: You need all the Armor Class you can get: most Monks can't wear armor, What!? Unarmored monks have the best AC in the game at higher levels - usually by level 4 - hands down. I don't see how that is at all! Show me.
The Mortonator wrote: Sigh, is everyone else missing this? Do they just not get it?
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
No, you cannot replace combat expertise except for the VERY NARROW focus of feats this works for.
I got that. That's why I posted about Combat Expertise being underrated.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: The Mortonator wrote: Sigh, is everyone else missing this? Do they just not get it?
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
No, you cannot replace combat expertise except for the VERY NARROW focus of feats this works for.
I got that. That's why I posted about Combat Expertise being underrated. You're right. It just is an annoyingly common misreading it seems.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I don't see how that is at all! Show me. Ki fueled barkskin, Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Headband of Inspired Wisdom. class feature AC bonus (plus the buffs that everybody else can get on a wand, too.) Over the course of a campaign, it can get really high.
Getting two different stat bonuses to your AC is powerful, particularly when one is on a belt and the other is on a headband. Monks have a much easier time boosting their AC than boosting their accuracy, which is why sacrificing accuracy for AC is a suspect exchange for monks.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: You need all the Armor Class you can get: most Monks can't wear armor, What!? Unarmored monks have the best AC in the game at higher levels - usually by level 4 - hands down. I don't see how that is at all! Show me. Well - I'll do the level 4 example since I have a level 4 dwarf PFS monk.
Str: 7
Dex: 20 (18 w/o belt)
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 5
10 +5dex +3wis +1class +1dodge +1deflection +3nat(barkskin) +4arm (mage armor) = AC of 28 (he was JUST 27 when he first hit 4 since he couldn't afford the belt)
A Str monk would be ONLY a 25 (with a Dex of 14) though if not a Drunken Master they wouldn't need to jack up their Con so high.
As you level you have another item slot AC+ than other classes (headband of wisdom), you gain more class bonus, you have no max dex bonus, and eventually you replace the Mage Armor with Bracers of Armor.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: I don't see how that is at all! Show me. Ki fueled barkskin, Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Headband of Inspired Wisdom. class feature AC bonus (plus the buffs that everybody else can get on a wand, too.) Over the course of a campaign, it can get really high.
Getting two different stat bonuses to your AC is powerful, particularly when one is on a belt and the other is on a headband. Monks have a much easier time boosting their AC than boosting their accuracy, which is why sacrificing accuracy for AC is a suspect exchange for monks. Replace the Bracers for a wand of mage armor. +4 AC instead of +1, and it is up pretty much whenever you need it.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Ring of Protection, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Everyone can get these benefits, and all these bonuses stack with regular armor.
In particular, on my Chain Shirt, I can put enhancement bonuses at the same cost as I can on the Bracers, and I can put other bonuses on the bracers like Ghost Touch, Balanced, Brawling, and Bitter. Armor gives you everything that Bracers of Armor does except that for a 100gp more, you get a +4 Armor Bonus to your AC. Bracers of Armor are not an advantage Unarmored Monks have that nearly every other class has, too.
Further, I can put enhancement bonuses on my Shield at the same cost rate as you put AC bonuses on Bracers. Shield Bonuses also stack with Armor Bonuses. And I can enchant my shield with a variety of other things both as protection and as Weapon.
Wand of Mage Armor will not stack with regular armor, so this is represents a real choice and a real opportunity cost. A Chain Shirt is barely encumbering, Mage Armor is not encumbering at all. A Chain Shirt provides constant protection--you can even sleep in it without being Fatigued--whereas Mage Armor has a duration and is refreshed at the cost of a Wand Charge or Spell Slot + a Standard Action. Mage Armor is Ghost Touch (enough) as is, whereas Ghost Touch Armor is very expensive. But a Chain Shir grants a +4 AC bonus for 100gp, and a Wand of Mage Armor Grants one for 750gp. Plus, in either case, both call for a dip from the Monk. Still, as I write, Mage Armor does seem better than I realized, and stuffing a Wand of Mage Armor into my pack does seem worthwhile.
Imbicatus wrote: Replace the Bracers for a wand of mage armor. +4 AC instead of +1, and it is up pretty much whenever you need it. You don't have to choose: Bracers' and Mage Armor stack just the same way that regular armor stacks with bracers. Put your special Armor Abilities on your Bracers, and put your AC Bonus on your (Mage) Armor.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Barkskin Barkskin stacks with your regular Armor Bonus. So does the Amulet of Natural Armor or the +2 AC bonus granted by Alchemal Mutagens. The fact that Monks can fuel this with Ki is an interesting point, but this seems more like an offset than an advantage. And as I said, Barkskin is NO reason not to wear Armor.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Headband of Inspired Wisdom. This is an advantage that Unarmed Monks have that no one else has, but when I did the numbers, it really seemed more like an offset than an advantage.
Also, you guys left out spending a Ki point to gain a +4 Bonus to AC, an ability particular to Monks (and Ninjas) that stacks other bonuses, even other Dodge Bonuses. Still, it stacks with armor.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Monks have a much easier time boosting their AC than boosting their accuracy, which is why sacrificing accuracy for AC is a suspect exchange for monks. Now, that is a good point. You have to watch out for that when character building.
The Mortonator wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: ^Oops -- forgot about Dirty Fighting. This makes Combat Expertise mostly obsolete Unfortunately, not. It does not help for:
Archon Style
Kobolt Style
Swordplay Style
Most feats
{. . .} Swordplay Style (which is really recent, being from the Weapon Master's Handbook) actually looks like an honest attempt to make it actually useful. Archon Style thematically makes sense to use it. I wonder if Kobold Style just got overlooked.
I'll still say that in general, Combat Expertise is partially obsolete because Dirty Fighting covers the things that people most commonly need it for, but I'll allow that for a Master of Many Styles Monk the feat market is different because a Master of Many Styles wants multiple . . . um . . . Style Feats, of which some require Combat Expertise and are not covered by Combat Expertise. (Still haven't fully gotten the hang of it -- still need to devote a session to doing a careful lookup of EVERY style feat, or at least all of them mentioned in the guide.)
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
I updated things to remove Dirty Fighting from the common prerequisites list.
Also, I believe I have every Style Feat through Occult Origins. I'm guessing there's no new Styles in Arcane Anthology, but I would be REALLY curious as to what would come up that WOULD fit in that book.
Charon's Little Helper wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: You need all the Armor Class you can get: most Monks can't wear armor, What!? Unarmored monks have the best AC in the game at higher levels - usually by level 4 - hands down. I don't see how that is at all! Show me. Well - I'll do the level 4 example since I have a level 4 dwarf PFS monk.
Str: 7
Dex: 20 (18 w/o belt)
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 5
10 +5dex +3wis +1class +1dodge +1deflection +3nat(barkskin) +4arm (mage armor) = AC of 28 (he was JUST 27 when he first hit 4 since he couldn't afford the belt)
A Str monk would be ONLY a 25 (with a Dex of 14) though if not a Drunken Master they wouldn't need to jack up their Con so high.
As you level you have another item slot AC+ than other classes (headband of wisdom), you gain more class bonus, you have no max dex bonus, and eventually you replace the Mage Armor with Bracers of Armor. Your character's armor class is impressive, and I can't improve on that simply by adding armor at the same apparent cost as you have posted: 2 Prestige points for your Wand of Mage Armor and 4000gp for a Belt of Dexterity.
I had a Halfling Fighter/Monk whose AC was impressive. 10 +1Small +3Dex +4Armor +2Shield +1Combat Expertise = 21. He was only level 2, though. Had he survived, his AC would have gone up pretty fast. He was going to be a MOMS Monk taking Snake Fang at level 3 followed by levels in Rogue and Dirty Tricks for Sneak Attack Damage.
There are some exotic things about the way your character works, though. I don't have a melee character with a Strength of 7, even with a Dex-to-Damage build, and it looks like you don't have one.
I'm curious about your choice of Dwarf. My instinct wouldn't to have a Dwarf unless it was to take advantage of certain Dwarven Racial Traits, such as a Movement Base of 20 even while wearing Heavy Armor, but if I were going to wear Full Plate along with those heavy Dwarven Extras, I certainly wouldn't have a Dex of 20! But then I probably wouldn't be a Monk at all.
So, if I had a Dex of 12, Full Plate and Shield, that's AC 22, 1520gp, +1 on the Armor, 1150, and the Shield, 1300, 3970gp, and a +1 Ring of Protection, that's 5970, and AC 25, not as good as your 27. This Character doesn't look like a Monk, more like a Fighter with a level in Arcanist or something to use a Wand of Swift Girding. And his AC is behind yours by 2 points, and you have Evasion where he doesn't. But his AC is permanent where yours requires Buffing. Your next upgrade, if I'm correct, is an Amulet of Natural Armor unless you are holding out for An Amulet of Mighty Fists. In PFS, you can't have a combined amulet. My Armored Dwarf definitely can get an AoNA for 2000gp, and after that, the next +'s on his armor and shield are only 3000gp each, where I think your next will be a Headband of Wisdom for 4000gp.
I think my armored Dwarf will catch up and pass your unarmored one, but I think I'd really need you to walk me though your character more before a fair comparison to be made, but that is beyond the intended domain of this thread. So, I'll just have to give this one to you.
It appears a style feat chain was missed;
Charging Stag Style, Stag Horns, Stag Submission (from Heroes of the Wild)
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Good looking out... I'll update this on my next pass through the Guide.
There are also two new style feats in the soon to be released Blood of Shadows player companion.
Blinded Blade style grants benefits when blinded or unable to see, granting scent, blindsense, and blindsight.
Cloak and Dagger style gives the ability to make dirty tricks when using light weapons.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote: There are also two new style feats in the soon to be released Blood of Shadows player companion.
Blinded Blade style grants benefits when blinded or unable to see, granting scent, blindsense, and blindsight.
Cloak and Dagger style gives the ability to make dirty tricks when using light weapons.
Cool! Is this posted in the product thread? I actually was planning to pick this up, as I am running a huge Drow/Duergar portion to my current campaign...
JAMRenaissance wrote: Imbicatus wrote: There are also two new style feats in the soon to be released Blood of Shadows player companion.
Blinded Blade style grants benefits when blinded or unable to see, granting scent, blindsense, and blindsight.
Cloak and Dagger style gives the ability to make dirty tricks when using light weapons.
Cool! Is this posted in the product thread? I actually was planning to pick this up, as I am running a huge Drow/Duergar portion to my current campaign... I don't know. I just got my subscriber download today and was just looking through it.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
I don't know. I just got my subscriber download today and was just looking through it.
Anything on Duergars in it? It's a buy for me for Drow either way...
JAMRenaissance wrote: Imbicatus wrote:
I don't know. I just got my subscriber download today and was just looking through it.
Anything on Duergars in it? It's a buy for me for Drow either way... Not in this. There are racial traits for drow and half-elves, and there are race sections on fetchlings and wayangs, but not duergar. There is a huge section on duergar in Darklands Revisited, but it's more of a GM resource and there aren't really many PC options for them, but there is a sidebar with racial favored class options for Kineticists and Psychics.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote: JAMRenaissance wrote: Imbicatus wrote:
I don't know. I just got my subscriber download today and was just looking through it.
Anything on Duergars in it? It's a buy for me for Drow either way... Not in this. There are racial traits for drow and half-elves, and there are race sections on fetchlings and wayangs, but not duergar. There is a huge section on duergar in Darklands Revisited, but it's more of a GM resource and there aren't really many PC options for them, but there is a sidebar with racial favored class options for Kineticists and Psychics. Well, as the GM, this sounds pretty good to me. :) I may have to wait until Blood of Shadows hits d20.
Lil' bump.
I found this guide interesting, it could now need a little update, since there is several new styles in the SRD .
Also, there is a new topic with the update MoMS archetype: you can also become a master at style-switching in addition to style-fusing.
The reason why is the Wildcard Feats that you can change any time you change your stance. So to assume a new style in the middle of the combat, you just need the 1st feat of the style, then assigning the wildcard feats to this new style.
It could make some situational styles a lot more useful for the MoMS than for other archetypes because he only need o e feat to rip the full benefit of the style when needed (you have to be careful of prerequisites)
I think you should mention the brawler dip for getting rid of the req in Outslug and the int req in expertise.
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