DC Comics To Relaunch Everything


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Whoa, whoa, whoa...are you blaming Alan Moore for the LXG film? Because he wasn't involved with that beyond writing the comic the film was based on. He didn't write the script, he wasn't brought in for consulting, he didn't even see the film as far as I know. This is like saying Mary Shelley is responsible for Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.


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Matthew Morris wrote:

I find it interesting and potentially worth reading. That one of the characters from the first 'real' grimdark deconstruction is responsible for the grimdark DC is poetic to me. That is gives us Wally back, even if we have to deal with GunLantern and deviate from Earth 19's aqualad is a worthy trade off. That we have new Titans as a result is a bonus.

As to what Alan Moore thinks.... I rate his opinion on what to do with Watchman characters about s highly as I rate Liefield's views on Shatterstar. Less, since he doesn't have a leg to stand on *cough*LXG*cough*

There are certain stories that should just be left to stand alone.

Watchmen was a story. The story was done and should have been left. There was no need to bring those characters back and let other people try to use them.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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No, I'm saying the man who wrote "League of public domain" has no room to complain about others using characters he helped create.

Scarab Sages

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

Spoiler:
If they are indeed going to make Dr. Manhattan the villain, and not just some someone whose actions and/or powers the true villain is taking advantage of, it just doesn't really make much sense. Yes, Manhattan certainly seems to have the power to create a universe (or alter the reality of an existing one). However, what would be his motive as the villain? In Watchmen he comes across as mostly indifferent, with maybe some curiosity thrown in. I suppose they could just do the usual "absolute power corrupts....", but to me that just comes across as lazy.

Also, I know it's been awhile since I read the story, but isn't Manhattan kind of temporally non-linear, able to see past, present, and future simultaneously? Maybe they'll make him do whatever he's doing because he's already seen himself doing it.

Either way, it just seems like a kind of lame, pretzel-twisting to fit the character to a pre-conceived plot.


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Grey Lensman wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
If Alan Moore had a grave, I think he'd be rolling in it right about now.
Although to be honest, I think Moore does that anytime DC does anything nowadays, or at least the closest equivalent.

DC should just commission a bespoke suit for Moore made of copper thread, then hire Juggalos to surround and follow him while holding magnets. Think of the electricity that could be generated!


Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

Spoiler:
If they are indeed going to make Dr. Manhattan the villain, and not just some someone whose actions and/or powers the true villain is taking advantage of, it just doesn't really make much sense. Yes, Manhattan certainly seems to have the power to create a universe (or alter the reality of an existing one). However, what would be his motive as the villain? In Watchmen he comes across as mostly indifferent, with maybe some curiosity thrown in. I suppose they could just do the usual "absolute power corrupts....", but to me that just comes across as lazy.

Also, I know it's been awhile since I read the story, but isn't Manhattan kind of temporally non-linear, able to see past, present, and future simultaneously? Maybe they'll make him do whatever he's doing because he's already seen himself doing it.

Either way, it just seems like a kind of lame, pretzel-twisting to fit the character to a pre-conceived plot.

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:

Spoiler:
Franklin Richards, as seen at the end of the last issue of the most recent Secret Wars. They could've just depicted him and his Fantastic parents without naming them, and thus, give nod to Marvel without invoking their legal wrath.

But yeah, DiDio, Johns, and Lee need to step away from the reins at DC.

Liberty's Edge

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Spiral_Ninja wrote:

Um....Okay...

** spoiler omitted **

It was interesting up to the....reveal.

No. Just NO!

So basically the creative staff at DC looked at Superboy punching university and said, "Yeah, we can go stupider!"?


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

** spoiler omitted **

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:** spoiler omitted **

But yeah, DiDio, Johns, and Lee need to step away from the reins at DC.

I see what you're saying but I think that would lead to more headache, not less.


Freehold DM wrote:
I see what you're saying but I think that would lead to more headache, not less.

My (non-serious) idea was no more stupid than this reveal of the DC-rebooting Big Bad, and that was just off the top of my non-paid noggin. What happened to inventing new characters with compelling motivations, or at least sorta-believable ones? Nope. Instead DiDio, Johns, and Lee decide to 1) crap on yet another fan favorite character & storyline, 2) take another needless & impotent jab at a creator that DC forced out decades ago, and 3) shift blame for their own colossal fuster-cluckery.

What they should have done was make the rebootage the fault of a mysterious trio that look eerily like DJ&L. At least then when the heroes deliver the well-deserved butt-whooping to the villainous trio, fans will gladly buy it to see vengeance served.


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Honestly,

I think Alan Moore and the Watchmen comics weren't that great. Deconstructionism attempt to grapple with a genre he obviously didn't like. He really COULD have gone anywhere with it, but instead it felt like a rehash of "oh look this is alternate reality."

Fast forward now, the fact that Johns is using the Watchmen (or whatever variant therein), bothers a HELL of a lot less for three basic reasons

1) Alan Moore is a hack.

2) Two Wally Wests for the price of one supposedly sacred cow story.

3) The chances of this being worse than Countdown to Final Crisis, Infinite Crisis, or more recently, Future's End.

So yeah. I'll say it. I'm not worried or laughing or just shaking my head. I'll accept it, especially after the crap we got thanks to post Flashpoint and the whole debaucle therein. (Except Court of Owls and Synder's Batman. That still remains pretty decent/good.)


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

** spoiler omitted **

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:** spoiler omitted **

No, they can't use him, as he belongs to Marvel.


Norman Osborne wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

** spoiler omitted **

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:** spoiler omitted **
No, they can't use him, as he belongs to Marvel.

Did you read the rest of the spoiler you obviously read the first part of:

Spoiler:
"They could've just depicted him and his Fantastic parents without naming them, and thus, give nod to Marvel without invoking their legal wrath."

Both companies have done this from time to time. Not to rewrite the universe, but using the other's characters with the serial numbers filed off.


Wow. I thought I would piss people off, not get 3 likes! :D


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Honestly,

I think Alan Moore and the Watchmen comics weren't that great. Deconstructionism attempt to grapple with a genre he obviously didn't like. He really COULD have gone anywhere with it, but instead it felt like a rehash of "oh look this is alternate reality."

Just out of curiosity, did you read them Watchmen when it came out or years afterwards?


I read them back in 1998 I believe. I hadn't started collecting comics that much other than a few issues here and there.

Scarab Sages

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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Wow. I thought I would piss people off, not get 3 likes! :D

Well, Alan Moore IS a hack......


Thanks Aber for agreeing with me. :p :)

Scarab Sages

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Granted, I don't hate Alan Moore. Nor am I a fanboy of his. I put him in the same boat as Grant Morrison, really. Two exceptionally gifted and creative writer's who sometimes do stuff for which I have a deep and abiding hate. Morrison has just done more of the 'hate stuff'.

I liked Watchmen. And Moore's The Killing Joke is, to me, one of the definitive Batman/Joker stories. But he can be a bit of a loon at times, and (to me) can come across as a bit of a pompous jacknut.

Ultimately, whatever Rebirth does will likely have a minimal effect on my collecting habits. No matter what they do with the story, I doubt I'll be going back to any of the Bat books, Green Lantern books, Justice Leagues or Flash. At most, it can be interesting to discuss the changes, so maybe it'll mean more frequent posts here and elsewhere, but that's about it.


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I can accept that some people have bad taste. :)

I do kind of wonder how differently those read now, or even in 1998, compared to when they first came out.
I don't think anyone who'd read Alan Moore's earlier stuff back then would have said "a genre he obviously didn't like", for example. And deconstructing superheroes was a new and different approach - at least anything as mainstream and radical as Watchmen. Or Dark Knight, which came out around the same time.

Scarab Sages

But Morrison will always and forever be on my list of People to be Devoured First during the Zombiepocalypse. I'll probably add Didio to that list sooner or later, since I blame him for resurrecting Barry Allen and jettisoning Wally West (the Flash I grew up with for 20+ years) into the ether.

Scarab Sages

And, yes. I know they brought my Wally West back. But it's too late. They cannot appease me now, or avoid the fate they have so richly chosen for themselves when my heart-beat challenged brethren and I rise up to cast down the civilizations of the living.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So, they are killing off the New 52 Superman and replacing him with the pre-Flashpoint Superman, but keeping everything in the New 52 Universe. Doesn't seem much of a "Rebirth" to me.


I guess my major thing is I don't much care for deconstructionism in any genre. It never does much other than make me feel bad. Like I said I read back in 1998, and we had a professor in my English 400 class (Chaucer) deconstructing Chaucer and I was bored out of my skull.

As for people to be eaten first, I don't put Grant Morrison on that list, but yeah I'd put Didio on that list for sure. (Mostly because I liked Morrison trip-inducing Batman and Multiversity.)

I honestly don't think much of Alan Moore's writing. I really don't. I read it and I feel like it's just some guy writing 1920 trash pulp novels in today's language.

Conversely I thoroughly enjoy Elric. :p :) So...whatever I guess.


Charles Scholz wrote:

So, they are killing off the New 52 Superman and replacing him with the pre-Flashpoint Superman, but keeping everything in the New 52 Universe. Doesn't seem much of a "Rebirth" to me.

Well we get two Wallys for the price of one dead nu-Superman. That's kind of a change. Plus we have Superboy that isn't a clone.


I'm cautiously optimistic about the change. Bringing some hope and light back into a DC Universe that seems to have been stuck in an ever-deepening "dark and gritty" whirlpool for the last 2+ decades is a welcome change of pace.


Charles Scholz wrote:

So, they are killing off the New 52 Superman and replacing him with the pre-Flashpoint Superman, but keeping everything in the New 52 Universe. Doesn't seem much of a "Rebirth" to me.

Well, by reading of the spoilers it seems they're also retconning or working towards resolving a lot of the major character and relationship changes (such as Green Arrow and Black Canary not being together) by retconning the universe reboot that was the New 52 into being the same universe, but withe everyone's memories altered.

Which conveniently lets them explain away all the major plot holes with "A big blue wizard did it".


thejeff wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

** spoiler omitted **

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:** spoiler omitted **
No, they can't use him, as he belongs to Marvel.

Did you read the rest of the spoiler you obviously read the first part of:

** spoiler omitted **

Both companies have done this from time to time. Not to rewrite the universe, but using the other's characters with the serial numbers filed off.

"cough" Buried Alien "cough"


TarSpartan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Regarding what looks to be the main villain.

** spoiler omitted **

I haven't read this comic yet, but they could've just as easily used a different universe-creating character:** spoiler omitted **
No, they can't use him, as he belongs to Marvel.

Did you read the rest of the spoiler you obviously read the first part of:

** spoiler omitted **

Both companies have done this from time to time. Not to rewrite the universe, but using the other's characters with the serial numbers filed off.

"cough" Buried Alien "cough"

LOL

Glad I'm not the only one who remembers that

All said and done Johns seems pretty confident in this comic.

So here is what seems to have happened.

Spoiler:

When Flash f'ed up and created the Flashpoint Pandora used that oportunity to merge Earth Prime with a couple of other Earths (Wildstorm and Milestone) in an effort to make the reality as a whole stronger.

As she did that Persons unknown (possibly Dr. Mahatten) took 10 years out of the timeline for reasons unknown. Not 10 years in a big lump but bits and pieces here and there. Key events that connected characters to each other. Since the timeline was fluxing anyway it patched the missing pieces with new events and the end result was Nu52 where everyone was 10 years younger and a lot of people and things were missing. Everyones memories adjust to fit, but there are some rough edges like people not being sure if there had ever been a Teen Titans team or not, or how Batman got through 5 Robins in less than 10 years, or if Superman had been killed by Doomsday.

When all this happens Wally gets sheltered in the Speed Force, but he's stuck and can't get out. He's been totally forgotten and reality spun out a new Wally.

Then Darkside gets killed and reality flickers. A crack opens and Wally is out. Rebirth begins here


Now I know who to blame for where Wally's been. :P


Sundakan wrote:
Which conveniently lets them explain away all the major plot holes with "A big blue wizard did it".

Isn't that the excuse most writers use anyway? "Oh it's magic!" "Oh the Blue guy did it." Now we get both. :p ;)


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A big blue naked guy did it!

Scarab Sages

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Norman Osborne wrote:
A big blue naked guy did it!

You bring up a good point. What are they going to do? Give Manhattan a codpiece? They can't very well let his schlong flop around all over the place.

Scarab Sages

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Not to mention, it would make for some pretty awkward interactions with our heroes.....

Random Hero: "Gaah! He's naked! I can see his junk!"

Superman: "Now you know how I feel around all of you. Except Batman. His costume's lead lined."


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Aberzombie wrote:

Not to mention, it would make for some pretty awkward interactions with our heroes.....

Random Hero: "Gaah! He's naked! I can see his junk!"

Superman: "Now you know how I feel around all of you. Except Batman. His costume's lead lined."

I laughed until it hurt.


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They'll probably just give him a thong like the movie did.

Scarab Sages

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Or just have him manifest as genderless. I mean it's not like he has any use for the dangly bits and as he gets older he was leaving more and more of his humanity behind.

Scarab Sages

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Freehold DM wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Not to mention, it would make for some pretty awkward interactions with our heroes.....

Random Hero: "Gaah! He's naked! I can see his junk!"

Superman: "Now you know how I feel around all of you. Except Batman. His costume's lead lined."

I laughed until it hurt.

Huzzah!

Scarab Sages

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Another horrifying thought:

Men are often accused of thinking with their dangly bits. That takes on a very scary meaning with Manhattan.


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Oh...

LOL! Aber...

Yep. That one did it. I think I officially had an aneurysm from laughing.


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Aberzombie wrote:

Another horrifying thought:

Men are often accused of thinking with their dangly bits. That takes on a very scary meaning with Manhattan.

"He has more brains in the tip of his c- {sigh} Alright, I didn't think that one through beforehand."


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Well. That's a pretty simple explanation for 2 Wallys.

They are cousins.
Older Red Head Wally was named after a relative.
Older Wally gets forgotten due to Time thief
Younger 52Wally is born and gets named after same relative on account of nobody remembers there is an older Wally.

They just never met before now


All I care about is older Wally has a nicer costume.


ok just read Rebirth issue #1.

and wow, it is pretty damn good (at least I think it was good). The overall feel of the story is ... honestly I'm kind of giddy from it. It feels good.

Beyond just Wally there are a lot of hints at things to come

for example

Spoiler:

An old man in a senior's home. They think he's crazy but he keeps talking about how he had to protect his friends from the McCarthy Hearings. But he lost his Pen, he has to get them back.
As they drag him back to his room he yells
"Cei-U, Cei-U Thunderbolt"

and
Spoiler:

In Metropolis a woman is arrested for stealing food. Food is free where she comes from. She has seen the future and everything is going to be ok.

Her only Possession a Gold ring with a stylaized L alongside a starburst

and then there is the little things

Spoiler:

Like Ray Palmer calling on his grad student assistant Ryan Choi to put on a belt and come save him in the Microverse.

Jamie Reyes talking to Mr. Kord (Call me Ted) who is showing off his new Mobile Headquarters called the Bug ("It's like a flying Batcave. Who doesn't want their own Batcaave")

Green Arrow and Black Canary exchanging a look even though they have never met before

Daimian coming up with an idea for his 13th birthday

Young Justice Aqualad talking to his mom about that thing he did at the lake (and the fact that he's got a boyfriend)

Ok my hopes for Rebirth are officially up. Looking forward to all the #1s I'm gonna have to buy next week

Sidenote: For fans of the old Hanna Barbera Heroes. Check out Future Quest #1.


My thoughts:

While I'm sure some Alan Moore fans are rolling in their graves, this one didn't feel too tacked on in some respects. Could they have found a different villain? Maybe. But the fact that we get TWO Wallys (classic Wally/Flash and now current updated version of Wally), along with some great character moments make this issue feel more than just an apology or a gimmick.

Scarab Sages

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Greylurker wrote:


Sidenote: For fans of the old Hanna Barbera Heroes. Check out Future Quest #1.

I picked this up, but haven't read it yet.

I'm still glad they brought back Wally.

I still despise Damien Wayne and would love to see the character memory-holed (along with most of Morrison's run on Batman and that dumbass idea of three Jokers).

I hope they'll bring back Legion of Superheroes with a decent writer (one who's capable of telling a story in two issues or less) and keep it mostly separate from what's going on in the main DC timeframe.


I'm actually ok with the idea of 3 Jokers. It kind of explains a few things and I'm curious to see how it plays out. Could still suck but I'm interested

Also want to see if anything comes of Hal becoming curious about Joker.

Scarab Sages

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Greylurker wrote:

I'm actually ok with the idea of 3 Jokers. It kind of explains a few things and I'm curious to see how it plays out. Could still suck but I'm interested

Also want to see if anything comes of Hal becoming curious about Joker.

Truthfully, I'm indifferent to it. I stopped collecting most Bat titles a few year back, and stopped the most recent Batman Beyond when I realized how badly they'd ruined it.


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Aberzombie wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

I'm actually ok with the idea of 3 Jokers. It kind of explains a few things and I'm curious to see how it plays out. Could still suck but I'm interested

Also want to see if anything comes of Hal becoming curious about Joker.

Truthfully, I'm indifferent to it. I stopped collecting most Bat titles a few year back, and stopped the most recent Batman Beyond when I realized how badly they'd ruined it.

oh god, that whole "Future's End" thing, such a massive pile of nothing. Ruining Batman Beyond was about the only thing to come out of that.

Scarab Sages

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Greylurker wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

I'm actually ok with the idea of 3 Jokers. It kind of explains a few things and I'm curious to see how it plays out. Could still suck but I'm interested

Also want to see if anything comes of Hal becoming curious about Joker.

Truthfully, I'm indifferent to it. I stopped collecting most Bat titles a few year back, and stopped the most recent Batman Beyond when I realized how badly they'd ruined it.
oh god, that whole "Future's End" thing, such a massive pile of nothing. Ruining Batman Beyond was about the only thing to come out of that.

I'm hoping they at least reset Beyond with this new event. I've heard that Terry will brought back, but I don't know if that's been officially confirmed.

Scarab Sages

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Just read an interview with Johns (this was over on the Blastr site), where he confirms Legion of Superheroes will be out eventually. Didn't give a timeline.

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