They both have there advantages but I would say that having most any feat you need for any situation is incredibly usefull. If your going for straight damage its probably weapon training. If not then martial flexabilaty is probably better.
Of course, with advanced weapon training, the question is much, mcuh harsher.
That can represent +2 attack/damage (due to gloves of dueling), +5 will save, +6 reflex, +2 skill points, +4 shield AC, etc. etc.
This is reason I feel the Core Fighter needs to be rebuilt with less pernament feats, Martial Flexability, and Brawlers Cunning.
But I'm in the camp that believes that Fighters should be adaptable warriors prepaired for any situation.
Still trying to get myself to remember that advanced weapon training is a thing. If those options are available I would say its a pretty close draw. I still prefer flexabilaty just because I prefer new abilatys over number bonuses.
Yeah, You can grab 3 of them (4 if I remember right due to a feat to get AWT at level 5). A few examples of your options:
-Apply bravery to will saves
-apply weapon training to reflex
-effective skills points- two skills with BAB in place of skill points; all are treated as class skills; get 2 of- bluff, intimidate, and a pair of skills unique to each weapon group (most have at least 1 social skill or perception); instant retraining if you already had skill points in those skills.
-Shield bonus when wielding your weapon; +1 to +2 base, 1/2 of weapon's enhancement bonus. Makes dipping urban barbarian even better, I suppose, due to furious.
-get the scaling damage from sacred weapon on warpriest. Great for light weapon TWF builds. Makes a level 10 outslug builds rather frightening.
-can treat a number of " choose a weapon" feats (such as weapon focus) equal to your weapon training bonus as working with everything in the weapon group.
-what basically amounts to inquisitor's solo tactics ability. Yes- teamwork feats are awesome for your now.
These are the better examples. There are more, but they seem more limited and specialized in use. So all of these make vanilla fighter (or at least fighter with archetypes that leave weapon training and bravery alone) into something much more competitive.
All good answers. I guess I keep hearing about AWT because it is new.
Now to find a way to get both...
Get the Bar-Room Brawler feat and Abundant Tactics?
You can actually get Advanced Weapon Training 7 times, assuming you stick to a single weapon group. You can get it for every weapon training after the first and select the feat every 5 levels.
If you are using the Weapon Master archetype you can get even more times because if you take it as a bonus feat the "once every 5 levels" clause doesn't apply. It does however only work for your weapon of choice and you can't pick the Weapon Specialist (using combat feats for an entire weapon group).
You can actually get Advanced Weapon Training 7 times, assuming you stick to a single weapon group. You can get it for every weapon training after the first and select the feat every 5 levels.
If you are using the Weapon Master archetype you can get even more times because if you take it as a bonus feat the "once every 5 levels" clause doesn't apply. It does however only work for your weapon of choice and you can't pick the Weapon Specialist (using combat feats for an entire weapon group).
The problem with using the Weapon Master archetype is that it also trades out Bravery so you're stuck without the will save bonus.
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The problem with using the Weapon Master archetype is that it also trades out Bravery so you're stuck without the will save bonus.You can actually get Advanced Weapon Training 7 times, assuming you stick to a single weapon group. You can get it for every weapon training after the first and select the feat every 5 levels.
If you are using the Weapon Master archetype you can get even more times because if you take it as a bonus feat the "once every 5 levels" clause doesn't apply. It does however only work for your weapon of choice and you can't pick the Weapon Specialist (using combat feats for an entire weapon group).
I still haven't fully wrapped my head around the idea that we now live in a world where trading out bravery is a bad thing...
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Honestly, the degree to which the Weapon Master Handbook has flipped the script on everything we know about the Fighter class is crazy to me. All of the player companions since Owen Stephens took over the line have been glorious for martials (we live in a world where the Arcane Anthology has archetypes for the Fighter and the Rogue) and I cannot express enough how stoked I am for the Armor Master's Handbook.
That IS rather hilarious, Shisumo. Especially since that's probably the #1 feat to take Weapon mastery for.
Seriously, I look at the list of AWT feats and see maybe 2, 3 universal choices, and then some situational ones. Finesse fighters definitely come out well.
But for an 'average' fighter taking 7 of them? Or a weapon master taking 13? Not gonna happen. They just aren't that good.
==Aelryinth
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I wouldn't say that there aren't at least 7 options worth taking though. I think all of the options are basically better than feats. It's more that they don't usually synergize well with each other. Still, just having 3 options that are almost mandatory is pretty good. That means if you're looking to have weapon training with a bow and a sword, you're going to be spending feats on these options.
You can actually get Advanced Weapon Training 7 times, assuming you stick to a single weapon group. You can get it for every weapon training after the first and select the feat every 5 levels.
AWT is a combat feat. You can use Barroom Brawler to pick up the one that you need when you need it.
(yes, I know I am roughing up my own argument above.)
You'd have to keep a floating not-taken AWT feat, because you still need to fulfill the 1-per-5 requirement.
Armed Bravery is the #1 feat, since it effectively gives Fighters a good Will save.
Trained Initiative isn't as good as Improved Initiative until your bonus hits +4 (i.e. at 10th+), and the secondary effect requires you to have Quick Draw, and only works with your Weapon Group (i.e. you can't pick between a bow and a sword).
Fighter's Reflex isn't going to be as good as Lightning Reflexes until 10th+. ANd unlike the feat, he loses the benefit if flat footed.
Fighter's Tactics is decent, if he wants to spend his feats on Teamwork Feats.
Versatile Training is nice, but restricted to a strict set of skills depending on weapon group. The only way to get additional skills...is to add more weapon groups, which decreases the amount of AWT feats you get! So, if you want to take it more then once, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
A Weapon master can't take it more then once at all, since he only has the one weapon!
i.e. once again, AWT basically only benefits high level fighters. Having to wait ten levels so you finally get a decent Will save is severely counter-intuitive.
==Aelryinth
i.e. once again, AWT basically only benefits high level fighters. Having to wait ten levels so you finally get a decent Will save is severely counter-intuitive.
High level is when you want to boost to will though.
Until then, you can get by with basic tricks like wisdom, a trait, maybe iron will...and even when you do have good will progression, it isn't like those previous boosts aren't still appreciated (cause will saves are the scariest in the game, so getting more towards the cleric's will save is not a bad thing).
But the point where it becomes noticeable depends on the option and build used. With a dagger or cestus build, one can see large benefits with focused weapon starting as early as level 5- they go from 1d4 to 1d8. That is effectively the same as getting weapon specialization, and it grows from there. As you said- finesse builds greatly benefit from all this. I can certainly make a mean outslug build.
Your complaint about Trained initiative is off as well, as you get the bonuses as long as you are carrying a weapon of your weapon groupTrained Initiative isn't as good as Improved Initiative until your bonus hits +4 (i.e. at 10th+), and the secondary effect requires you to have Quick Draw, and only works with your Weapon Group (i.e. you can't pick between a bow and a sword).
==Aelryinth
He was referring to the secondary effect, which lets you draw your weapon as part of the initiative if you have quickdraw.
Which...is a questionable benefit, admittedly. I can vaguely think of some situations where it would be important, but it usually...isn't. Of course, I tend to prefer reach or cestus, so I am almost always armed, basically. So my use for the ability is exceedingly limited.
Of course, it is the secondary effect, so it being kinda garbage is fine. You grab that option for the initiative boost anyway.
i.e. once again, AWT basically only benefits high level fighters.
It's kind of contextual though isn't it? If you're a small finesse fighter using a rapier, cutlass, or scimitar taking Focused Weapon will help you immediately (taking it at level 5 changes your damage die from a d4 to a d8) and continues to get better.
I mean, Focused Weapon means you don't have to finagle an exotic weapon proficiency, you can just use what you like. I'm a big fan of that, since I'm kind of sick of fauchards.
Your complaint about Trained initiative is off as well, as you get the bonuses as long as you are carrying a weapon of your weapon groupTrained Initiative isn't as good as Improved Initiative until your bonus hits +4 (i.e. at 10th+), and the secondary effect requires you to have Quick Draw, and only works with your Weapon Group (i.e. you can't pick between a bow and a sword).
==Aelryinth
He was referring to the secondary effect, which lets you draw your weapon as part of the initiative if you have quickdraw.
Which...is a questionable benefit, admittedly. I can vaguely think of some situations where it would be important, but it usually...isn't. Of course, I tend to prefer reach or cestus, so I am almost always armed, basically. So my use for the ability is exceedingly limited.
Of course, it is the secondary effect, so it being kinda garbage is fine. You grab that option for the initiative boost anyway.
Correct.
And note I said 10th+ level, NOT 13th+ level, when WT3 activates. 10th level is about when you can afford the 10k for the gloves of duelling, and your bonus pops from +2 to +4.
There's definitely some nice things in there for a light weapon build, especially if you can throw it. Doubling your WT dmg is an excellent benefit that makes up the gap for a lower Str score for dex builds.
A low Will save is 4 behind the curve at 10th level. All classes can get common buffs to their Will saves, but the feats that buff them just suck compared to other classes abilities.
Ah, the Weapon Master can indeed take the option twice (the maximum is twice), since the extra two skills are indeed qualifying. Misread it the first time...thought you had to have a new weapon group to pick it again. Still, it's very odd when your skills picked are limited by the weapons you chose.
I would also like to note that for Weapon Sacrifice...shields are weapons! Time to break out the adamantium Hardened Impervious +5 shields!
==Aelryinth
A low Will save is 4 behind the curve at 10th level. All classes can get common buffs to their Will saves, but the feats that buff them just suck compared to other classes abilities....
...
I would also like to note that for Weapon Sacrifice...shields are weapons! Time to break out the adamantium Hardened Impervious +5 shields!==Aelryinth
Well, 4 is manageable. I can cover 4 at level 1, with investments (or at least get it to 2 with light investment, 'enough' to scrape by). Which means he will be several ahead of the curve when he does get bravery to will. This is a stop gap measure...but it isn't necessary for it to solve the problem permanently.
You can also get weapons to provide actual shield bonus. A nice little number that will probably give you +4 AC (...eventually). Maybe +5 if you have dip urban barbarian and get a furious weapon (or some other way to get a +6 weapon). Not the best bonuses considering the conditions, but it seems like it is something worth getting if you are in a high level game and think "well, the rest of this is mostly useless". Which seems like a common problem for these weapon master builds. And it is certainly nice for the "just grab full plate" style of 2 handed builds, which are more known for being the baseline for DPR rather than AC.
i.e. once again, AWT basically only benefits high level fighters. Having to wait ten levels so you finally get a decent Will save is severely counter-intuitive.==Aelryinth
I was kind of under the impression high level was when fighters needed the most help anyway.
i.e. once again, AWT basically only benefits high level fighters. Having to wait ten levels so you finally get a decent Will save is severely counter-intuitive.
Five levels; there is a feat.
Which feat is that? At level 5, Armed Bravery is worse then Iron Will. At level 8, it's equal. At 10 or so when you finally get Gloves of Dueling, you finally have +4 and the equal of a good will save.
And anyone can take Iron Will. We have to compare against other class abilities. AWT is basically a class ability for fighters, after all.
==Aelryinth