I very much want to DM this but my players are on the fence and feels it will just end badly....We are all older gamers and have been playing for a combined 100 years or more and still they worry from old games they played that all will end in tears.....I want to bring them over slowly...any advice
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I saw this type of thread pop up for Iron Gods, it's hard to convince a group to go along with adventures they are unsure of.
Since you're all mature adults I recommend, take it slow, work on them individually, find a selling point, every super villain needs an origin story and Suicide Squad for Pathfinder are what got me hooked for it.
Good luck!
I would recommend showing Cheliax not as something 100% evil. Maybe as a place ravaged by war where people craved for peace and stability, no matter of what sort. Put the accent on this part. Maybe the current generation and the old one are okey with Thrune rule. Not happy, but they see it better than Galt anarchy, or uncertainty in the next day with Andoran democracy.
On the matter of characters - I'd advice showing PCs not as stupid chaotic evil maniacs who are enlisted to fight Glorious Reclamation only because they have "Good" in alignment, but as a crew who can make things done. Without fanatical zeal and killing innocents if they have a chance. They are people who understand that sometimes somebody must get dirty so others don’t have to. Maybe they are patriotic for Cheliax enough to fight for it with foreign invaders (and GR does look like one). Alternatively, are intelligent and wise to understand that an invasion, war and forcible installation of new government/governments is a disastrous idea in long run for the region.
Of course, we do not have the AP on hand to know what tone it has. Maybe it's simple kill, crush, destroy. Maybe it's more complex and in gray area for some interesting roleplay and interpretation. But lets hope it's deeper than simple "Evil Guys vs Good Guys".
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If you can find a copy (it's not easy to find), I'd say have your friends read "Villains by Necessity" by Eve Forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains_by_Necessity
It's a story about how Good triumphs over Evil and in doing so starts the end of the world. And a plucky band of villains has to learn how to work together to overcome the villains and save the world in doing so.
Naturally the good guys aren't so good, and the villains aren't so bad. But there are moments when some of the villains commit acts that are definitely not noble... and also shows not only issues with infighting, but also learning how to work together.
Mind you it's not high literature, but it's still a fun read. :)
Tammy might have to check that out.
The War of the Spider Queen series of novels was pretty good to see how a party of evil characters handled the various challenges. They still were engaged in their various schemes against each other, of course, but knew when to put that stuff aside and confront the Main Thing.
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I very much want to DM this but my players are on the fence and feels it will just end badly....We are all older gamers and have been playing for a combined 100 years or more and still they worry from old games they played that all will end in tears.....I want to bring them over slowly...any advice
The answer is simple; run it for me.
As a GM and a Player, I will not be running this.
But I will still purchase it and will not be cancelling my subscription.
Why? Because I am curious as to where they will go with this... and what I may learn from Paizo's efforts here.
I'd also suggest Glen Cook's Black Company novels, especially the books of the north: The Black Company, Shadows Linger, The White Rose. Best military fantasy about mercs serving the big bad ever written.
Concur, but especially the early books.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if these were at least part of the inspiration for the Hellknight Orders...
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It's funny, I was totally going to skip it in November.
Then my wife suggested I play as Tammy, since then my efforts have been all about finding someone to run it for me. :-D
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I'd also suggest Glen Cook's Black Company novels, especially the books of the north: The Black Company, Shadows Linger, The White Rose. Best military fantasy about mercs serving the big bad ever written.Concur, but especially the early books.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if these were at least part of the inspiration for the Hellknight Orders...
Man, I need to track these down someday. I read the d20 book years ago and really loved the Myth games way back when but somehow never realized it's an entire series.
Check out Prince of Thorns by Mark Lawrence for some anti-hero inspiration.
Love the Suicide Squad angle, may try to steal that.
I'd also suggest Glen Cook's Black Company novels, especially the books of the north: The Black Company, Shadows Linger, The White Rose. Best military fantasy about mercs serving the big bad ever written.
One of my all time favorite series, especially the first ones.
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Man, I need to track [the Black Company novels] down someday. I read the d20 book years ago and really loved the Myth games way back when but somehow never realized it's an entire series.
Paizo's publishing partner Tor has the entire run of Cook's excellent series in a nice set of omnibus trade paperbacks: Chronicles of the Black Company, The Books of the South, The Return of the Black Company, and The Many Deaths of the Black Company. I'm coincidentally rereading them now and they really hold up, excellent stuff. Malazan fans will spot the obvious (and acknowledged) influence Cook had on Steven Erikson.
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To be honest, I don't think Suicide Squad is fitting since that is about group of violent ax-crazy criminals who are forced to work for government because they have bomb collars :P They would prefer to do their own thing if they had choice
Well, maybe in the movie version. During the original run many members joined out sense of duty (Vixen), regret(Bronze Tiger), necessity(Vertigo) etc. instead of being forced to and had no failsafes. For them it was still a goverment job, though shady and clandestine. Some members, while sociopathic and criminal (that ex-Jihadist thuggee guy, Deadshot, Doctor Light iirc), proved themselves trustworthy and could do the same.
Then there was Boomerbutt who they probably shoulda left on that island to rot.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It can be tricky, especially with experienced gamers who have been burned by evil PCs before. If your group is as mature as their experience would seem to indicate, here are a few pointers about evil parties that can help make them work:
-Your group likely isn't made of impulsive teenagers. Evil groups don't have to devolve into a nasty PVP fest. They don't have to engage in petty dickery. It doesn't have to be "I slit his throat while he's sleeping and take his stuff."
-Evil characters can have friends that they care about. You can play a character who's willing to watch the world burn if it will save the ones they care about.
-You can be evil without being a psychopath. Embracing evil philosophies - the strong take from the weak, the ends justify the means, "me first," and so forth - doesn't mean you have to be crazy about it. Your characters can have self control. They can even be nice, likeable people publically.
I'm sure the player's guide will have some advice for long-term evil games. A lot of it is simply making sure that your players have a cultural understanding that everyone is there to have fun, and your evil party is there to ruin the NPCs' fun, not the other players'.
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I've run or played evil parties before, without the problems of backstabbing and party disintegration.
First is to get everyone to decide on a theme for the party, like the good examples of the 'Black company' or the 'Suicide squad'. Why are they working together? How do they get along? What is their purpose?
Then once you have a reason for an evil party to be together, work on individual characters. I've always found a good way to start an evil character is to ask. What don't you like about adventurers? The society where the adventure is based, or even just certain alignments.
This can give you a hook to build an interesting character, not just the common cliche of a CE murderhobo
The Iconics we've seen are good examples. A LE Chelaxian loyalist taken to fanatical extremes. An Assassin who doesn't care for anything but the power he holds over others.
Played properly an evil character can be just as much fun as a good character, really stretching your roleplaying to new areas and insights.
Hope this helps a little.
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I really do NOT like the idea of an evil Adventure path. It just rubs me the wrong way on too many levels. I have a sinking feeling it will not go over as well as the others. But I will reserve my judgement till after seeing all of them.
But to be honest I doubt I'll play it.
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There are people who don't like urban APs. Others don't like sandbox APs. And yet others don't like Egyptian-style APs. No matter what Paizo does, there will be those who don't like the AP in question and others who love it.
I really do NOT like the idea of an evil Adventure path. It just rubs me the wrong way on too many levels. I have a sinking feeling it will not go over as well as the others.
But I will reserve my judgement till after seeing all of them.
While it's not inconceivable, I do not think that means what you think that it means...
I really do NOT like the idea of an evil Adventure path. It just rubs me the wrong way on too many levels. I have a sinking feeling it will not go over as well as the others.But I will reserve my judgement till after seeing all of them.While it's not inconceivable, I do not think that means what you think that it means...
I think the "reserving judgement" was referring back to the line immediately preceding it - "I have a sinking feeling it will not go over well" - rather than his own personal opinions expressed in the first two sentences.
Totally conceivable! >:{D
I'm likely just burned on too many years of defending Black Hat play against insinuations about the players who enjoy that play style and got a bit defensive. Apologies to C.O. if that was the case.
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If their primary concern is the game might devolve into player vs player rather then the group vs the AP, suggest they all create characters who have a strong bond and great loyalty to each other. A mercenary company who have fought together for years, family members, devotees of the same god, orphans who all grew up realising they could only rely on each other, etc.
If they have a strong in character reason to never backstab one another and out of character agree that they won't do so, then the problem essentially goes away.
All this advice is a huge help.....I'm slowly working them around to playing with little tid-bits....they are taking the bait
Thank you all so much
There are two possible problems: I don't know which one you're worried about.
PvP is totally avoidable. We did _Council of Thieves_ with a party in the same neutral/evil neighborhood that could work for _Hell's Vengeance_. The PCs had strong ties to each other and were smart folks who understood that backstabbing loses allies.
The problem that has killed a few evil campaigns locally is that if you do well-fleshed out, vivid characters who actually respond to the events, a game with too many vile deeds can turn out not to be any fun. We did a Shadowrun game where the PCs were Insect Totem cultists--four sessions, and I for one was tired of doing awful things well before the end.
The Black Company is a great paradigm for having characters you can care about and root for, despite the fact that they are working for the Big Bad (and they know it from quite early on). I'd also mention Glen Cook's short story "Filed Teeth"--my husband ran an adaptation of that story which worked beautifully. It had the "swear a pact" aspect of _Vengeance_: half the PCs did and half did not, and it made for a lot of unease amongst them. There were many late-night discussions of whether our employer ought to be offed, whether we *could*, what would happen with the pact-bound PCs.... In the end we never did turn on him.
I have not read _Vengeance_ but my GM read it and will not be running it; he felt that smart, ambitious evil characters would balk at the plot and this would be hard to fix. The word "thugs" came up a lot in his review. I'm not overly interested in being a thug.
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The simple fact is that, despite what Paizo has put together, despite how you might spin Cheliax and diabolism, some players will simply not be interested in an evil campaign.
This is not a case of wrongbadfun, but of preference. As you have seen here, many people have run evil games over the years and had great success. Are there inherent challenges that must be managed? Of course, but they are by no means insurmountable, and successful evil games are by no means rare outliers. Many people have had great times playing evil campaigns.
That said, I do not enjoy playing evil characters, not due to any bad experience or opposition to the concept in principle, but because the way I have fun is to play characters that are nuanced, but still ultimately heroic. The real world is a place of moral compromise, but my RPG characters can be Good Guys. I'm simply not interested in playing a villainous character, and the same might be said for some of your players.
This AP will be a tough sell for a lot of players, and some might flatly not be interested. That will suck for you if you are really keen to run it, but it is what it is.
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This "evil" campaign is what brought me back to the forums after an eight year absence. Looking forward to reading and running it.
I've played and GMed several evil campaings, from drows in the old Menzoberranzan box set in AD&D to Way of the Wicked, including a version of Curse of Crimson Throne with a Black Company-clone mercenary unit which was more anti-hero than evil. That's not counting playing with "evil monsters" such as vampires (and sabbath..) in World of Darkness. I have had just one single pvp issue in all those years, and it was because a certain player being at odds with the group. I have seen more than that with non evil groyps.
They are just like any other RPG. You Take a character, roleplay it, and inmerse yourself in a story that you try to advance.i f the players don't buy in the story, it will colapse, but the same is true in Iron Gods, or Kingmaker, or Reign of Winter, or Rise of Runelords, for that matter.