Hey there everyone... I'm hoping to get some advice from this group on how to counter the rather OP mechanics of an invisible caster (in this case a lvl 5 Arcanist who loves popping invis and then stealthing his way across a battlefield/dungeon where no one can see what he's doing and he often has a bonus in the mid 50's).
At this exact moment in time he's decided to go all "Splinter Cell" into a Keep (away from his party) and is traipsing around the battlements only to be sniffed out by a Manticore. He's near impossible to "see" but thankfully the Manticore's scent ability is keeping him pressured.
I'd love some thoughts on how other GM's handle the rather overpowered situation that invisibility represents when a caster decides to go undetected. Thoughts?
The "not moving" bonus of invisibility only triggers when you dont move. Not just dont leave your square, but literally stack stock still.
Also remember that refreshing Invisibility makes sounds (speak clearly), unless he casts it with Metamagic Silent Spell. AND has visual effects when being cast. These visual cues are very hard to get rid of, as only the caster is invisible and not the effects he produces.
Also once he starts getting agressive, Invisibility ends, so it is mostly only good for scouting.
Also its all fun and games, untill he runs into a trap while alone. Or an enemy who can notice him. Wizards are not the best solo combatants.
Detect Magic.
Oozes. Walls of Force. Total darkness. Detect magic. Dispel Magic. Sphere of Annihilation.
Traps, dogs (in packs), patrols of several defenders "sweeping" the area for intruders, etc. Magical means have already been suggested and detect magic isn't hard to come by at all. Good luck!
Traps of all kinds:
- Caltrops: If he stepos on them and hurts his feet he might leave red footprints
- Bear traps keep him stationary and it's hard to free yourself
- magic traps that caast glitterdust
- the invisibility alarm spell
- Symbol of Revelation (btw. free if the caster has the fortune teller feat)
Also remember that refreshing Invisibility makes sounds (speak clearly), unless he casts it with Metamagic Silent Spell. AND has visual effects when being cast. These visual cues are very hard to get rid of, as only the caster is invisible and not the effects he produces.
You can't say that without saying what the effects actually are, which Paizo has left up to GMs to determine. It can easily be black runes that swirl over the caster's skin. Or flashing lights from his eyes (spellcraft lets you ID the spell from the color and strobe rate). Or something else that's part of the caster and therefore disappears with him.
So it's GM dependent until they FAQ whether invisibility inherently does (or does not) hide these deliberately undefined signs.
Detect Magic.
Takes three rounds to pinpoint a square. He might not stand still inside your cone.
Scent. See invisibility, glitter dust, true seeing, a high perception check ...
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If he wants to go off on his own, he has to be able to handle everything on his own. That includes:
- Lots of locked doors. Knock spells will run out eventually.
- Closed doors. Stealth won't stop people noticing a door suddenly opens.
- Guard dogs with Scent.
- Bead curtains :P
- Traps. Pit traps with smooth walls that automatically close again are especially cute.
- Various guard creatures set to protect against invisible enemies.
- The setup: the room that a curious PC just can't pass up, and then the door slams shut behind him. And the water level starts to rise...
- Swarms
- Keeping track of just how far he's going off on his own, and whether unexpected delays occur to keep him from getting back on time.
- Guards with grapple and blind-fighting.
- The caster may be invisible, but the recent FAQ suggests that spells being cast are themselves noticeable. So even if he's silently re-arming Invisibility, people can still "sense a disturbance in the Force".
- Heavy objects that he can't easily move on his own. Dumping strength is not "free"; encumbrance is a part of game balance.
- Situations that require spells possessed by other PCs.
- Often, part of the plot is that you run into an NPC and talk. Invisible PCs tend to avoid any and all contact, and might totally miss out on these interactions. That can also make their missions a lot harder...
But let's be clear: Invisibility is just about the most powerful level 2 spell. That's clear. The above are mostly IC things. However, there's also the OOC side of things to consider: the amount of OOC time spent on one player while everyone else waits.
One of the most annoying things that can happen in a game session is if the party is split, and the half you're not in gets into a combat. Because that can take quite long. Maybe an object lesson is needed, where the rest of the party has combats while your arcanist player has to sit twiddling his thumbs. Or being quiet while the rest of the party deals with the puzzle or talks with the NPCs. But most of all, you need to talk OOC about this: make it clear that while you respect his ability to go invisible, for the fun of everyone, you want him to use that power responsibly.
Also remember that refreshing Invisibility makes sounds (speak clearly), unless he casts it with Metamagic Silent Spell. AND has visual effects when being cast. These visual cues are very hard to get rid of, as only the caster is invisible and not the effects he produces.
You can't say that without saying what the effects actually are, which Paizo has left up to GMs to determine. It can easily be black runes that swirl over the caster's skin. Or flashing lights from his eyes (spellcraft lets you ID the spell from the color and strobe rate). Or something else that's part of the caster and therefore disappears with him.
So it's GM dependent until they FAQ whether invisibility inherently does (or does not) hide these deliberately undefined signs.
All the artwork being referenced in the FAQ has swirling energy clouds and colors around the caster. Take out the caster and you still have colored clouds and streams of energy in the air.
Detect magic may take three rounds to pinpoint somebody, but a paranoid will simply blast the area at an unfamiliar aura unaccompanied by anything visible.
Proper defensive building means there are chokepoints where there isn't a lot of room for an invader to maneuver. Set up a lantern of auras there and it's difficult for them to pass it.
On the other front, a player that hogs the spotlight and doesn't allow other characters to play should be talked to by the group. If they don't change, it's time to disinvite him.
I would not specifically target the player, but neither would I show mercy when he inevitably runs across something that can find him.
Way too may creatures with a way around Invisibility for him to keep it up forever.
Invisibility Alarm is a first level spell with 10 min/level duration, and a reasonable Permanency cost of 2.5k. Don't need to use that too often, but it's handy for important doorways.
Bat familiars are good for Glitterdust targeting- especially since the bat can fail away at its save to little ill effect.
Ten-foot wide hallway with two people walking side by side.
I'd look at the chance of finding something useful per unit time. Take half that, and make that the chance of running into some form of invisibility hate. Have a smaller chance for running into negated invisibility hate, like a dog that ignores him or a perfect opportunity to slip through a door after somebody.
Mundane ways to detect invisible creatures include:
-- disturbance of the fog/flour clouds or other collections of small stuff
-- footprints in the dust (or other stuff on the floor)
-- trying to listen real hard and hear where the casting is coming from (invisibility helps your stealth check against vision, not against sound or scent)
-- putting up plenty of hanging cords from the ceiling, or spreading tripwires around (doorways opening are also pretty obvious)
Plenty of low-level magic, most notably see invisibility and invisibility purge, but also glitterdust and faerie fire.
Monsters with scent, blindsense, tremorsense, or other ways of sensing and tracking enemies.
Even low-level enemies can have area-attack stuff (alchemist's fire! drop a weighted net from the ceiling!) or set up pit traps and things like that.
Detect Magic is not a spell you can use without a reason. It takes concentration. That is not something you keep up hours over hoursd when guarding an area. Not to mention that the typical guard is a mundane class, most probably warrior, or Fighter for Elite Guards.
But dont forget simple, mundane ways to deal with the not extremly unlikely event of invisible intruders in a world of magic.
Sawdust on the floor.
Keep an eye on it. Footprints appear in it? Drop the chain-net that hangs on the ceiling and trap all corporeal entities in the room under it. Sound the alarm and take your sap to beat any knobs that "hang in the air" until they stop moving, and then some.
And/or combined with some guard dogs chained to the walls. They have scent. Their handler nearby. Doesnt require some exotic wild animals bend with magic to be of use, like a "trained" bat. And dogs actively want to work together with humans they like, instead of needing a SC class dude.
For one permanent Invisibility Alarm you can have 50 checkpoints based on mundane means and manned by low-level guards.
You only have to catch him once with a dispel magic in a glyph of warding and I guarantee he won't be sneaking off on his lonesome again.]
For a less dramatic touch I suggest doors - with locks if necessary. Just the fear of having to open a heavy iron door should give him pause for thought.
Wand of Glitterdust is my personal favorite, unless you have see invisibility on your spell list.
Also, keep in mind it's only a DC 20 perception check to notice an invisible creature is within 30ft.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.
Get within 30ft and start dropping glitter dust in the area.
Also, if the wizard starts harassing the enemy and popping back into invisibility show him how unfortunate visibility reducing abilities are when turned the other way by using a wand of Obscuring Mist. It lasts for a minute and will protect groups from any targeted effects. It does leave the wizard able to use AOE attacks, but you can also have some people stand 5ft within the cloud (they have concealment 20% miss chance both ways) and ready an action to attack the wizard if he pops invisibility.
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Detect Magic.
That doesn't work at my table. I don't allow at-will cantrips to be stronger than 2nd level spells. My answer is that whoever invented Invisibility (and almost all other illusions) figured out how to make them NOT appear to be magical.
Not RAW, but it's also not NOT RAW, and makes more sense than invalidating nearly an entire school of magic with a cantrip.
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Detect Magic.That doesn't work at my table. I don't allow at-will cantrips to be stronger than 2nd level spells.
How is it stronger? One is passive and the other is a poor active defense against it.
Frankly - I think one of the major flaws in D&D/Pathfinder spell-casting is that counters to spells are usually equal or higher level to what they counter. It would make far more sense if the opposite were true. (see invis as a level 1 spell / anti-teleportation spells level 2-3 etc.)
Detect magic doesn't defeat it unless they spend three rounds not moving.
Round 1 only tells you yes/no is there magic in this 60ft cone. There are a lot of reasons there could be magic in a 60ft cone. Don't forget the rules for lingering auras for where spells were cast.
Round 2 only tells you the number of magical auras and the strength of the strongest present (you still don't know if someone is there using invisibility).
On round 3, they learn the strength and location of each magical aura in the 60ft cone. You're also allowed to use knowledge arcana to identify the school of each spell aura, which is illusion in this case. Which doesn't completely give the cat away, though people are definitely going to investigate.
And keep in mind if they move the cone the rounds start all over. And if the subject moves out of the cone it starts all over.
It can be situationally useful, but it's not great.
I would argue that the invisibility effect may not be detectable but the other magic items carried by the invisible hero should be.
Downside is that Arcane sight also becomes see invisibility for anyone carrying magic.
cheap bags of flour :)
cheap bags of flour :)
I think this was stated by the Devs to not actually help you find someone.
For those suggesting things with Scent, be aware that it isn't exactly hard to defeat.
cheap bags of flour :)I think this was stated by the Devs to not actually help you find someone.
No but if you know the square you can outline the form with the standard 50/50 miss and a touch attack
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cheap bags of flour :)I think this was stated by the Devs to not actually help you find someone.
Actually 'white powder' is listed as a piece of gear in Ultimate Equipment. Kinda works for seeing an invis critter in a particular square for a single round. Better is to cover the ground with it and watch for footprints.
Hunter with a buddy with scent and lookout and have the hunter use farie fire.
Although Also the arcanist can use negate aroma as a spell from the advanced players guide to protect against this.
Also if you know the square what about blasting a lone arcane caster. That plus flour will work. Although this may cause the rest of the party to think of monty python how not to be seen.
I personally tended to use See Invisibility (later with Permanency) and then when I saw something invisible light it up with Glitterdust so now the whole party can see them.
How would you know it's invisible if you simply see it? Wouldn't it look the same as everything else that you see?
Just kidding. The spell says they look different; it's just a funny thought...
Without the GM metagaming, with should be avoided at all costs.
- Locked doors.
- Guard Dogs
- Sawdust/flour/sand in areas where invisibility is a concern.
Hey there everyone... I'm hoping to get some advice from this group on how to counter the rather OP mechanics of an invisible caster (in this case a lvl 5 Arcanist who loves popping invis and then stealthing his way across a battlefield/dungeon where no one can see what he's doing and he often has a bonus in the mid 50's).
At this exact moment in time he's decided to go all "Splinter Cell" into a Keep (away from his party) and is traipsing around the battlements only to be sniffed out by a Manticore. He's near impossible to "see" but thankfully the Manticore's scent ability is keeping him pressured.
I'd love some thoughts on how other GM's handle the rather overpowered situation that invisibility represents when a caster decides to go undetected. Thoughts?
Less we forget the advance gear section:
Powder: Powdered chalk, flour, and similar materials are popular with adventurers for their utility in pinpointing invisible creatures. Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints.
in addition The cantrip Create water can be a slow, yet effective ways to detect invisible creatures:
Invisibility says: "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle)"
Wand of Glitterdust is my personal favorite, unless you have see invisibility on your spell list.
Also, keep in mind it's only a DC 20 perception check to notice an invisible creature is within 30ft.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.Get within 30ft and start dropping glitter dust in the area.
Also, if the wizard starts harassing the enemy and popping back into invisibility show him how unfortunate visibility reducing abilities are when turned the other way by using a wand of Obscuring Mist. It lasts for a minute and will protect groups from any targeted effects. It does leave the wizard able to use AOE attacks, but you can also have some people stand 5ft within the cloud (they have concealment 20% miss chance both ways) and ready an action to attack the wizard if he pops invisibility.
Echh,
Glitter gets everywhere. You'll never get it cleaned up.
That's what makes it the perfect thing for your enemies.
They can be shiny and chrome for eternity!