Table 2-11 Ultimate Equipment pg 93
Adamantine (1lb) 300gp
Platinum/Mithral (1lb) 500gp
Then prices for armor made by Mithral Light Armor 1000, Medium Armor 4000, Heavy Armor 9000, weapons, shields 1000, then everything else 500 per pound, and all items weigh half as much.
Adamantine is 5000 for Light, 1000 for medium, 15000 for heavy, 3000 for weapons, 60gp per missile.
So if you the items made from mithral were made with an equal amount of weight mitigating its half weight feature for doubling the price, Light armor would run 2k gold, medium armor would run 8k gold, and heavy armor would run 18k gold
the ratios for price at equal weights would be (Mithral to adamantine) 2:5, 4:5, 6:5.
So how is Adamantine worth 60% as much as Mithral per pound when clearly for all small and medium armor it is more expensive? Also you mean to tell me that as someone with access to either, if I went by the 300 gp per pound of Adamantine, or the 500gp per pound of Mithral, I would ruin my value by using it for armor, and before someone goes and says something along the lines that leather straps and buckles and other items make the materials in the armor, the ultimate equipment book on page 48 states "Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that
have innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor
or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get
the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However,
you can build a double weapon with each head made of a
different special material." so it would have to be made mostly from said special material, and in the case of mithral will an item weighs half as much it is probably mostly mithral, and then a chain shirt for another example is all metal, no leather pieces or buckles . So whay would anyone waste something as valuable or as precious as those special materials only to see the value severely tank?Typically a finished product costs more, for example high end watches are so expenisve because the amount of work put into the fine and tiny pieces that make up the product, finished jewelry costs more, cut gems cost more, all finished goods cost more, so why would finished Mithral and Adamantine cost less with the exception of Mithral weapons that are actually 500gp per pound. I as a GM of my own campaign had my adventurers fight a bunch of constructs in a tomb, some of which were adamantine cobras, which if handled properly yield adamantine plates, which have a gold mark assigned to them when they become a finished good as per the table cited at the beginning of this comment, but due to the inconsistencies both prices regard mithral and adamantine are, I am electing to have mithral be 500 gp per pound and adamantine be worth 625 gp per pound based on the average for the three ratios above I gave coming out to Mithral on average comes to a value of 4:5 that of Adamantine. The properties will remain the same, but a finished product cannot go down in price (no one is going to say hey I spent this much on materials and now I am going to sell you the result for less than I spent on the materials, in fact everything else in Pathfinder that you make cost half of the finished products value in gold so you can make a profit).
New thought, if I spent money on materials to craft an item myself, you could not make a Mithral sword for 1/4 the weight in mithral and end up with something half the weight of an actual sword, nor do you buy less steel than is required to make a regular sword in terms of weight, so as an NPC blacksmith that made a 1 pound item out of mithral, would you not sell it for twice the value of the what you spent on materials like with everything else in the game? I am going to make Mithral 400 gp per pound for all items, and Adamantine will be 500 gp per pound for all items going forward until Paizo publishes something that makes sense, if it was at least consistently off up and down the board I would be fine, but this has no rhyme or reason to it as it stands.
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The prices for armor and weapons are not the price for the material, but the price for the material plus labor. You are not told how much special material is actually used, so you cannot do the calculations you cited above.
Metal armor is mostly steel. Mithral, at half the weight, makes the armor weigh less. It does not need to be exactly 50%, but for easy game logistics, it is deemed 50%.
As to recovering the metal from Adamantine cobras, they are based off the Iron Cobra.
Construction wrote: An iron cobra's body is built from 100 pounds of magically treated materials (typically iron). Variants wrote: Iron is the most common material for these creations, but some crafters prefer more exotic materials when creating the serpentine constructs.
Adamantine Cobra (+1 CR): This cobra is more solidly built than others. Its natural armor bonus increases to +12, it gains +5 hp per HD, and it gains DR 10/—.
Note it does not say how much Adamantine is actually used. It is clearly less than 100#, since that would be 30,000 vs. the price of 20,000.
Therefore, how much you can recover from the killed monster is up to GM fiat only.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: The prices for armor and weapons are not the price for the material, but the price for the material plus labor. You are not told how much special material is actually used, so you cannot do the calculations you cited above.
Metal armor is mostly steel. Mithral, at half the weight, makes the armor weigh less. It does not need to be exactly 50%, but for easy game logistics, it is deemed 50%.
As to recovering the metal from Adamantine cobras, they are based off the Iron Cobra.
Construction wrote: An iron cobra's body is built from 100 pounds of magically treated materials (typically iron). Variants wrote: Iron is the most common material for these creations, but some crafters prefer more exotic materials when creating the serpentine constructs.
Adamantine Cobra (+1 CR): This cobra is more solidly built than others. Its natural armor bonus increases to +12, it gains +5 hp per HD, and it gains DR 10/—.
Note it does not say how much Adamantine is actually used. It is clearly less than 100#, since that would be 30,000 vs. the price of 20,000.
Therefore, how much you can recover from the killed monster is up to GM fiat only.
/cevah
The cobra is a mute point and no they did not harvest 100 pounds of adamantine per cobra, the NPC stat block said three plates could be harvested and without a weight value for the plate assigned I decided the plates would weigh 20 pounds. The construction cost for the Adamantine cobra was listed at 10000 gold, meaning if you were to buy one it would cost 20000 gold, so 60 pounds of adamantine x the 300 gold per pound of adamantine yields 18000 gold per cobra as I ruled it at the time and I am not going to go back and change it other than what I would charge a player to make it with my new prices for adamantine, but once more the cobra golem showed the characteristics of adamantine so I went with the at least 50% rule and decide 60 pounds was a good number. They had to pay to have the cobras smelted down. All the same the cobras are a total mute point to how the rules for pricing of adamantine and mithral items go, so back to that.
Now then the chain shirt example is a piece of armor made up entirely of metal, and nowhere anywhere does it say mithral or adamantine armor or equipment is mixed with steel or lesser metals, so I very well could factor the cost the way I do seeing how what is listed is vague, inconsistent and has no rhyme or reason here. We are not here to debate what all factors into each piece of armor, obviously full plate will have some leather pieces to it maybe some buckles and what not, but that is not going to be a significant factor into the weight, also unless you can produce something that says adamantine weapons and armor along with their mithral counterparts are forged and created with lesser metals, your point is invalid. Obviously labor is a factor, which goes back to my point if Mithral is 500 gp per pound and a Chain shirt is 10 pounds when made of mithral and is sold for 1100 gp you just became the worst business man in Golarian. If it was made 50% out of steel as you suggest, that would knock the weight in half right there by itself, so then the mithral added to it would have to be weightless, so your theory does not quite pan out either way you want to slice it. Mithral chain shirts would be nonexistent because the cost to make them vs what they are sold for would a huge loss for the crafter unless they felt like giving them away as charity. Until Paizo gets back to me, or someone has something in writing that makes all of this seem somewhat reasonable, it is obviously flawed and based on what they gave me, I am going to stick with my solution, will it make things slightly more expensive for my players, sure, but it will make the loot more valuable too when they find it.
Also here are some links to things that are relevant to this conversation:
The raw mithral: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Mithral
Do note the FAQ off to the side for the dagger example, which would also be wrong unless while using mithral as a crafting agent you lose half of it in the process, Also note it says when worked like steel and not when worked with steel, also note it is a rare metal, not an alloy.
Next two actual items for reference purposes:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/elven- chain
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/mithra l-shirt
Both cases clearly state that they are made of very fine mithral chain links, and make no mention of other materials, one is medium armor, the other is light armor As previously discussed that chain shirt is a huge money pit, not even worth making, and a waste of 5000 gp of mithral if you did it with common sense, but their dagger example would lead me to believe you would use 10000 gold worth of mithral for the weight of what a chain shirt is not made of mithral, and half of it is wasted in the process, meant you spent 10000 gold to make 1100 gold, 5000 or 10000, it is a horrible idea. On to the Elven Chain, once more at face value the mithral version would cost 10000 gp in mithral, or 20000 if you use the dagger example, this item sells for 5150 gp....so once more about the same loss if you are going common sense and not the dagger method, so you would have to be an idiot to waste mithral, something rare and as valuable as platinum on anything other than coins.
On to Adamantine
As per the entry in the Ultimate Equipment book:
Mined from rocks that fell from the
heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to
the quality of a weapon or suit of armor.
Weapons fashioned from adamantine
have a natural ability to bypass hardness
when sundering weapons or attacking
objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from
adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it’s
light armor, 2/— if it’s medium armor, and 3/— if it’s heavy
armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made
from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is
included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons
and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls,
and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened
by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without
metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could
be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made
of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal.
Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/ba ttleaxe-adamantine
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/da gger-adamantine
The price difference for those two items is 9 gold, the weight difference is 5 pounds, and sure the axe does have a wooden handle or a non adamantine handle, maybe, but all the same the axe weighs more, Why would a dagger cost anything close to that is my question, it should be at least half the value if not a third of the value factoring the weight of the axe head vs the adamantine on the dagger. Otherwise what is the point of it costing 300gp per pound?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/adaman tine-breastplate
30 pounds of weight there, and sure a breastplate will have some straps and buckles, the bulk of the weight is going to be on the metal in the armor anyway, once more playing devil's advocate here, if you can spend 3001 gold for an adamantine dagger that is 1 pound period, why the hell would you invest anything into making armor when you would have to spend 20-30 pounds of the same material to do so? You wouldnt. On top of that price per weight is yet again off. also it is a metal, not an alloy and it is pretty rare too, and once more it says nothing about having steel in any of the construction.
So basically if they took all of their adamantine and made nothing but daggers and sold them all for 1500 gp, they would effectively up their profits five fold since daggers weigh 1 pound, in fact if they made anything else, they would be losing money, the rules are obviously broken. Hell why not buy heavier weapons and armor whatever weighs the most for the least cost, like I do not know a chain shirt made of adamantine since it should be 100% adamantine, melt it down, have 15-20 pounds of adamantine, then make daggers you can turn around and sell for a huge profit, I just legally made gold and all money worthless as the rules are written. Before you bring up the crafting time needed argument, three words, the Fabricate spell. An investment of Pearl of Powers would be handy and a group with two people that could cast that speel several times a day and investing into items that after 24 hours give more than a temp bonus to int or charisma, and bam you are in business melting down adamantine and making daggers. Who needs adventuring.
So unless anyone has anything in writing other than that dagger goodness on the mithral FAQ, I do not want speculation, this is in fact a problem, it is off and inconsistent all over the place. I have determined from the ratios above how I want to handle it until they publish something that works.
The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing.
There are so many ways of breaking the economy, it is not even funny. One example was buying a ladder and selling two ten foot poles to make a profit. Even after the sell for half bit.
If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up, since they are gaining WBL in another manner.
Economics is an afterthought to the role play, not an integral part. As GM you set the value of the cobra by Fiat. No rule gave you that value.
As you saw, the price for armor is one of three, but there are more that three kinds of armor. For game simplicity, it is by fiat assigned one of the three values. Same for weapons. For an average weapon, it costs X, therefore for all weapons it costs X even though they weigh vastly different amounts. This makes for a simpler game. If you want to work out what each item should cost, it will involve a lot of your time, and wont appreciably add fun for most players. This is why they went with a simplistic system.
/cevah
PS: Rules for making links are in the format button below the text window.
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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: The cobra is a mute point [RANT=Homophones]
MOOT point.
[/RANT]
EDIT: From Wikipedia
Moot point
The phrase moot point refers to an issue that is irrelevant to a subject being discussed or (in British English) that is debatable. Due to the relatively uncommon usage of the word moot, this is sometimes rendered as the malapropism "mute point".[9]
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: So basically if they took all of their adamantine and made nothing but daggers and sold them all for 1500 gp, they would effectively up their profits five fold since daggers weigh 1 pound By RAW, when crafting weapons you pay "1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost."
Trying to make sense of why the cost of the raw materials for an adamantine dagger and greatsword are almost identical is probably a waste of time. (Maybe you need higher quality purer adamantine to get the hardness penetration effect when it's a smaller weapon?)
The prices for weapons/armor vs the poundage is never going to match up. There are different poundage for full plate vs Banded Mail. It's up to the GM to flavor it with why it is so. Does it require special solvents and substances to work? If so, that might count for why there is a difference in price for armor/weapon vs poundage. You assume that like steel, you only need coal and the ingots. There's also oils, salts and other things to forge, so who's to say you don't need special substances to create these items.
I would hesitate to say that the difference in price is due to labor alone, since that would mean if you forged it yourself, you'd be skirting the rules on how much you would have to pay for the item.
Adamantine, being so hard, takes more effirt to work with I guess
Yep, it takes a whole "1 round per 10 cubic feet of material" when you cast your fabricate spell...
No one is going to craft any Adamantine/Mithral without spells and/or magic tools. Amazing Tools of Manufacture, for instance, can make special material crafting possible.
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SlimGauge wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: The cobra is a mute point [RANT=Homophones]
MOOT point.
[/RANT]
EDIT: From Wikipedia
Moot point
The phrase moot point refers to an issue that is irrelevant to a subject being discussed or (in British English) that is debatable. Due to the relatively uncommon usage of the word moot, this is sometimes rendered as the malapropism "mute point".[9]
Thanks for the correction.
Matthew Downie wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: So basically if they took all of their adamantine and made nothing but daggers and sold them all for 1500 gp, they would effectively up their profits five fold since daggers weigh 1 pound By RAW, when crafting weapons you pay "1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost."
Trying to make sense of why the cost of the raw materials for an adamantine dagger and greatsword are almost identical is probably a waste of time. (Maybe you need higher quality purer adamantine to get the hardness penetration effect when it's a smaller weapon?) Once more this is speculation, and higher quality adamantine is not a valid argument given no mention of it anywhere in the rules. The flat rate of 3000 gp per weapon is awful, weapon pricing is at least one thing Mithral gets right at 500gp per rules, obviously there is a part of the price for an item based on the labor put into it, but how could for example someone were to make a adamantine or mithral weapon with 1/3 of fhe weight of the weapon (in case of mithral half as much since a mithral weapon weighs half), you wouod end up with a weapon lacking, the reason why the same method of taking 1/3 price of a finished item in materials works is because the price of steel per pound is iron is listed at 1 SP per pound, so the work to turn it into steel and then into weapon and armor will never result in a loss of money when crafting but instead increase the value of the original materials by a substantial margin. Now then if adamantine dagger and an adamantine greatsword respectfully cost their regular prices plus 3000 gold, one takes 300 gp worth of adamantine, the other takes 2400 gp of adamantine, sure there are other costs in working the metal into the weapons shape but I doubt a dagger would require more than a greatsword in terms of construction, also it would be impossible in the case of the freat sword to purchase 1/3 of the adamantine greatswords value in materials, in adamantine alone you would have 3.33 pounds of adamantine to make an eight pound sword, even if it had a steel hilt or some other material, the sword itself as it is forged goes into the handle, so your finished product would be lacking. If you go the flat rate for price per pound and alter the prices of each item crafted with a precious material, you have a more reasobale and consistent method for fairly determining the price and value of anything. An adamantine Dagger should sell for no more than 900 gold, on the grounds the dagger weighs 1 pound and the rules for crafting says it cost 1/3 the value of the items total price for materials to craft it, the 600 gp added in can factor into the time it took to make the item as labor, likewise the greatsword would have to be closer to 7200 gold. Like I said Iron costs 1sp per pound, then it has to be worked into steel, then it has to be forged into an item, so iron/steel items could never break the economy. Obviously with the iron some is lost in the process making steel, then you need the furnace, oils, fuel, forge, etc to make a regilar dagger that has a value of 2 gp. As for armor, it should conform to the same rules as weapons and everything else. Using Skyrim as example iron and ebony items require the same quantity of their respective resources to make items, no fillers of other metals, but the rarity and cost of the raw materials alters the cost of the final product.
vorpaljesus wrote: Adamantine, being so hard, takes more effirt to work with I guess Quite possibly, although it does not say so, the difference that is stated is the rarity at which it is found. That has the most to do with the price. The special properties obtained have to do with the metal, but once more it is based more on the rarity of the metal.it is like the difference in stainless steel eating ware as opposed to actual silverware, they both perform the same purpose eaually, but one is made of a metal that is more rare.
Nerioth wrote: The prices for weapons/armor vs the poundage is never going to match up. There are different poundage for full plate vs Banded Mail. It's up to the GM to flavor it with why it is so. Does it require special solvents and substances to work? If so, that might count for why there is a difference in price for armor/weapon vs poundage. You assume that like steel, you only need coal and the ingots. There's also oils, salts and other things to forge, so who's to say you don't need special substances to create these items.
I would hesitate to say that the difference in price is due to labor alone, since that would mean if you forged it yourself, you'd be skirting the rules on how much you would have to pay for the item.
Iron is listed as 1 SP per pound, that is a huge difference than 300 gp per pound and 500gp per pound that Adamantine and Mithral are listed as respectfully. Altering the prices of everything made with a special material based on a flat rate per pound of special material is the only conistent way to do things and keep the economy of the world intact. Once more thanks for your speculation, there is no notation saying Mithral or adamantine made items are fashioned any differently than items made of iron and steal which do indeed have those hidden prices you speak of, at the same time even if the price of those hidden materials rose significantly to help fashion the special materials, the base price of the special materials is still wrong for the final price figure more often than not.
Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing.
There are so many ways of breaking the economy, it is not even funny. One example was buying a ladder and selling two ten foot poles to make a profit. Even after the sell for half bit.
If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up, since they are gaining WBL in another manner.
Economics is an afterthought to the role play, not an integral part. As GM you set the value of the cobra by Fiat. No rule gave you that value.
As you saw, the price for armor is one of three, but there are more that three kinds of armor. For game simplicity, it is by fiat assigned one of the three values. Same for weapons. For an average weapon, it costs X, therefore for all weapons it costs X even though they weigh vastly different amounts. This makes for a simpler game. If you want to work out what each item should cost, it will involve a lot of your time, and wont appreciably add fun for most players. This is why they went with a simplistic system.
/cevah
PS: Rules for making links are in the format button below the text window.
I laughed at "Budgets and Bookkeeping" but at the same time this is not complicated math, it is no more complicated than finding the value of a magic item with enhancements and various abilities. Setting a flat rate and then using the crafting rules to determjne a price for example my adamantine dagger would sell for 902 gold (roughly) from a merchant and an adamantine greatsword would sell for 7250 (roughly). My adventures read this post of yours and their response in regards to breaking the world economy is not an "if," but a "when."
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Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing.
There are so many ways of breaking the economy, it is not even funny. One example was buying a ladder and selling two ten foot poles to make a profit. Even after the sell for half bit.
If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up, since they are gaining WBL in another manner.
Economics is an afterthought to the role play, not an integral part. As GM you set the value of the cobra by Fiat. No rule gave you that value.
As you saw, the price for armor is one of three, but there are more that three kinds of armor. For game simplicity, it is by fiat assigned one of the three values. Same for weapons. For an average weapon, it costs X, therefore for all weapons it costs X even though they weigh vastly different amounts. This makes for a simpler game. If you want to work out what each item should cost, it will involve a lot of your time, and wont appreciably add fun for most players. This is why they went with a simplistic system.
/cevah
PS: Rules for making links are in the format button below the text window.
I laughed at "Budgets and Bookkeeping" but at the same time this is not complicated math, it is no more complicated than finding the value of a magic item with enhancements and various abilities. Setting a flat rate and then using the crafting rules to determjne a price for example my adamantine dagger would sell for 902 gold (roughly) from a merchant and an adamantine greatsword would sell for 7250 (roughly). My adventures read this post of yours and their response in regards to breaking the world economy is not an "if," but a "when." Pathfinders economy is broken as an economy from the get go. There is no breaking it, as its not designed to be an economy. Money in the game is purely a secondary character advancement path controlled by the GM. As such, prices are set by how they effect character power, not material costs. Since all adamantine heavy armors have the same mechanical effect, they have the same price, no matter how different they are in weight. Same for weapons, all weapons get the same mechanical benefit, so the cost for making an adamantine weapon is the same for all weapons.
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Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.
It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.
Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)
There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.
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Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Once more this is speculation, and higher quality adamantine is not a valid argument given no mention of it anywhere in the rules. Nor is there any mention of "all adamantine weapons and armor must use pure adamantine". We have to use the interpretation that makes most sense, or ignore the issue.
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: The flat rate of 3000 gp per weapon is awful, weapon pricing is at least one thing Mithral gets right at 500gp per rules Mithral in weapons has a cost per pound because the main benefit is reducing the weight of the item.
Adamantine in weapons has a fixed cost because the main benefit is DR & hardness penetration. Since a spear with a small metal tip and a big sword both give the same benefit, they have the same value, so should have the same cost. Otherwise everyone would probably buy some kind of super-cheap adamantine hammer with a few ounces of metal in the head, and use them as cheap tools to break locks, knock down walls and kill golems.
It's only 'awful' if you don't care about game balance.
Matthew Downie wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Once more this is speculation, and higher quality adamantine is not a valid argument given no mention of it anywhere in the rules. Nor is there any mention of "all adamantine weapons and armor must use pure adamantine". We have to use the interpretation that makes most sense, or ignore the issue.
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: The flat rate of 3000 gp per weapon is awful, weapon pricing is at least one thing Mithral gets right at 500gp per rules Mithral in weapons has a cost per pound because the main benefit is reducing the weight of the item.
Adamantine in weapons has a fixed cost because the main benefit is DR & hardness penetration. Since a spear with a small metal tip and a big sword both give the same benefit, they have the same value, so should have the same cost. Otherwise everyone would probably buy some kind of super-cheap adamantine hammer with a few ounces of metal in the head, and use them as cheap tools to break locks, knock down walls and kill golems.
It's only 'awful' if you don't care about game balance. Adamantine arrow, used in melee is a 1D4 weapon... ;)
Matthew Downie wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Once more this is speculation, and higher quality adamantine is not a valid argument given no mention of it anywhere in the rules. Nor is there any mention of "all adamantine weapons and armor must use pure adamantine". We have to use the interpretation that makes most sense, or ignore the issue.
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: The flat rate of 3000 gp per weapon is awful, weapon pricing is at least one thing Mithral gets right at 500gp per rules Mithral in weapons has a cost per pound because the main benefit is reducing the weight of the item.
Adamantine in weapons has a fixed cost because the main benefit is DR & hardness penetration. Since a spear with a small metal tip and a big sword both give the same benefit, they have the same value, so should have the same cost. Otherwise everyone would probably buy some kind of super-cheap adamantine hammer with a few ounces of metal in the head, and use them as cheap tools to break locks, knock down walls and kill golems.
It's only 'awful' if you don't care about game balance. Wrong it does state that anything made of a special material must be made mostly of that material to gain the benefits, and it does give a price for ore, so when adamantine and mjthral are listed at 300gp and 500gp per pound, that is pure adamantine. As for weight reduction in weapons, the only benefit to a lighter weapon is to your carrying capacity, and it gives the same bonus as a silvered weapon, but you may as well just make a silvered weapon if you need tbat effect, anyone what wants to spend 2000 gp to save four pounds off of their greatsword is wasting gold and mithral.
Gauss wrote: Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.
It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.
Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)
There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.
Say what you will but this does have to do with the pricing rules for crafting and special materials, something they have admitted is flawed for mithral and trying to fix. I am bringing up how inconsistent both adamantine and mithral are together and seperately.
Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing.
There are so many ways of breaking the economy, it is not even funny. One example was buying a ladder and selling two ten foot poles to make a profit. Even after the sell for half bit.
If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up, since they are gaining WBL in another manner.
Economics is an afterthought to the role play, not an integral part. As GM you set the value of the cobra by Fiat. No rule gave you that value.
As you saw, the price for armor is one of three, but there are more that three kinds of armor. For game simplicity, it is by fiat assigned one of the three values. Same for weapons. For an average weapon, it costs X, therefore for all weapons it costs X even though they weigh vastly different amounts. This makes for a simpler game. If you want to work out what each item should cost, it will involve a lot of your time, and wont appreciably add fun for most players. This is why they went with a simplistic system.
/cevah
This should be the answer to the question.
Are they inconsistent? Absolutely. But unless you're turning Pathfinder into "Merchants and Economies", it doesn't really matter. There are other games that have much better economic systems. If you want to play something like that, Pathfinder is a truly terrible option. Literally one feat (craft wondrous items) and some downtime completely destroys proper wealth by level. Add a negotiator bard and you're literally making money while selling at half price. Huge amounts of money.
If you don't like the simplified rules for materials, make some house rules about it. There isn't going to be an FAQ or an errata about them anytime soon.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing.
There are so many ways of breaking the economy, it is not even funny. One example was buying a ladder and selling two ten foot poles to make a profit. Even after the sell for half bit.
If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up, since they are gaining WBL in another manner.
Economics is an afterthought to the role play, not an integral part. As GM you set the value of the cobra by Fiat. No rule gave you that value.
As you saw, the price for armor is one of three, but there are more that three kinds of armor. For game simplicity, it is by fiat assigned one of the three values. Same for weapons. For an average weapon, it costs X, therefore for all weapons it costs X even though they weigh vastly different amounts. This makes for a simpler game. If you want to work out what each item should cost, it will involve a lot of your time, and wont appreciably add fun for most players. This is why they went with a simplistic system.
/cevah
This should be the answer to the question.
Are they inconsistent? Absolutely. But unless you're turning Pathfinder into "Merchants and Economies", it doesn't really matter. There are other games that have much better economic systems. If you want to play something like that, Pathfinder is a truly terrible option. Literally one feat (craft wondrous items) and some downtime completely destroys proper wealth by level. Add a negotiator bard and you're literally making money while selling at half price. Huge amounts of money.
If you don't like the simplified rules for materials, make some house rules about it. There isn't going to be an FAQ or an errata about them anytime soon. I have stated what I intend to do in the meantime.
Cevah wrote: If your players are intent of breaking the economy, then guess what? The loot from monsters starts to dry up This.
Or other Adventure parties come looking for your player's party because legend had it they were flush with gold.
Or some other planar demon comes looking for them because they found a secret to multiplying adamantine atoms.
In other words, the GM says "dude play the game, don't try to break the game. Game breaking economy actions are not forbidden. Can we play now?"
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Gauss wrote: Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.
It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.
Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)
There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.
Say what you will but this does have to do with the pricing rules for crafting and special materials, something they have admitted is flawed for mithral and trying to fix. I am bringing up how inconsistent both adamantine and mithral are together and seperately. This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.
Rules Forum description wrote: This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum. Pathfinder RPG General Discussion description wrote: This forum is for general comments about the Pathfinder RPG and discussing the system with other gamers. There is no question here, this is a discussion.
Gauss wrote: This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion. Actually - I think that it should go to the Homebrew board.
Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew wrote: Post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here.
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing. I laughed at "Budgets and Bookkeeping" but at the same time this is not complicated math, it is no more complicated than finding the value of a magic item with enhancements and various abilities. Setting a flat rate and then using the crafting rules to determjne a price for example my adamantine dagger would sell for 902 gold (roughly) from a merchant and an adamantine greatsword would sell for 7250 (roughly). My adventures read this post of yours and their response in regards to breaking the world economy is not an "if," but a "when." It is not complicated math, but detailed math. You have to determine each and every item (like 10,000 entries) to determine the correct mix. Doing it only for some does not work as soon as someone wants a special material X where X was not figured out. That gigantic table would probably be several hundred pages (or at least several dozen) that < 1% would use. Does it make sense to go to all that effort for so little reward (i.e. used by players)? No it does not. Instead, they came up with ballpark numbers that are good enough for most players.
As to magic item pricing being simple, it is not. There are some rules to follow, but the big one most miss is "priced as a similar item". Additionally, many items don't match what the rules would give. This is because they have tried over the decades to adjust pricing to account for usability and preference over other items. For example, if priced too low, it becomes a must have by nearly everyone. Priced too high, and it is almost never purchased/crafted. Prices between these points start forcing choices between item X and item Y. If X and Y are of similar power, they should be of similar price. Unfortunately, this is not a mathematical formula, but the result of gaming runs that are analyzed for usage patterns to determine under/over pricing.
/cevah
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
IMO Paizo is never going to change the pricing for what you want.
You'll have to Home Brew it, just make a list (or pencil it into your book), for each weapon and armor entry. What % is metal, wood, and leather. That should cover 95% of your needs.
Also ignore all the purists and their weapon and armor stats too. Keep the PF weights for weapons & armors, otherwise you'll bog down into needless details.
Unless you also house-rule what adamantine does, you're just making things like the adamantine cestus (weighs 1lb, so 500gp under the proposed pricing system) really underpriced for what it does.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
IMO, cestus would a be mostly leather weapon, as studded leather would be a leather armor. Adding adamantine, to either would only increase the cost.
Little problems like that can be home brewed away without being a purist about REAL weapons & armor.
Cevah wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Cevah wrote: The game is not Budgets and Bookkeeping, but Fantasy Role Playing. I laughed at "Budgets and Bookkeeping" but at the same time this is not complicated math, it is no more complicated than finding the value of a magic item with enhancements and various abilities. Setting a flat rate and then using the crafting rules to determjne a price for example my adamantine dagger would sell for 902 gold (roughly) from a merchant and an adamantine greatsword would sell for 7250 (roughly). My adventures read this post of yours and their response in regards to breaking the world economy is not an "if," but a "when." It is not complicated math, but detailed math. You have to determine each and every item (like 10,000 entries) to determine the correct mix. Doing it only for some does not work as soon as someone wants a special material X where X was not figured out. That gigantic table would probably be several hundred pages (or at least several dozen) that < 1% would use. Does it make sense to go to all that effort for so little reward (i.e. used by players)? No it does not. Instead, they came up with ballpark numbers that are good enough for most players.
As to magic item pricing being simple, it is not. There are some rules to follow, but the big one most miss is "priced as a similar item". Additionally, many items don't match what the rules would give. This is because they have tried over the decades to adjust pricing to account for usability and preference over other items. For example, if priced too low, it becomes a must have by nearly everyone. Priced too high, and it is almost never purchased/crafted. Prices between these points start forcing choices between item X and item Y. If X and Y are of similar power, they should be of similar price. Unfortunately, this is not a mathematical formula, but the result of gaming runs that are analyzed for usage patterns to determine under/over pricing.
/cevah Actually you would not need a table, just a formula for determining the price of an item made from any special material, and a price per pound of special material, they already give a price per special material so they dont have to do anything there, as for the formula, they could give a few examples to show how to use the formula. It is a simple fix, set prices per pound, one formula for all items.
Gauss wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Gauss wrote: Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.
It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.
Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)
There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.
Say what you will but this does have to do with the pricing rules for crafting and special materials, something they have admitted is flawed for mithral and trying to fix. I am bringing up how inconsistent both adamantine and mithral are together and seperately. This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.
Rules Forum description wrote: This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum. Pathfinder RPG General Discussion description wrote: This forum is for general comments about the Pathfinder RPG and discussing the system with other gamers. There is no question here, this is a discussion. Once more I disagree, hes it has become a conversation, and yes I have decided to fix this problem for myself until Paizo decides to fix the problem or give a response. The original question and topic involve rules for special materials that are inconsistant. I prefer playing by the rules written than making my own up, that way the game does not get watered down with house rules. I have identified something that I view as an issue and I want feedback, not speculation to why things are as they are. As it stands they can remove the price per pound of special materials including the price for mithral objects at 500gp per pound, or they can remove their set prices like for light, medium, and adamantine armors, and both could be a simple fix. Or they could change the rules and set up a formula for all items when it comes to crafting and give a few examples to how to work the formula.
Charon's Little Helper wrote: Gauss wrote: This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion. Actually - I think that it should go to the Homebrew board.
Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew wrote: Post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here. Except I dont want a homebrew solution, I want rules that work. Something my players cannot break an economy with or exploit, and something where I dont have to be one of those GMs that has to make up rules and say my way or the highway.
Queen Moragan wrote: IMO Paizo is never going to change the pricing for what you want.
You'll have to Home Brew it, just make a list (or pencil it into your book), for each weapon and armor entry. What % is metal, wood, and leather. That should cover 95% of your needs.
Also ignore all the purists and their weapon and armor stats too. Keep the PF weights for weapons & armors, otherwise you'll bog down into needless details.
Is having a simple formula to apply towards all items that complex of an idea. No need to pencil in anything, a simple formula works, like for magic items, they give rules for pricing magic items, they dont actually price and list every combination of magic weapons and armor out there. As it stands the rules for crafting are spend 1/3 of the full value of the item on raw materials, and just using an adamantine greatsword here with the prices given for adamantine for now, the full value of an adamantine greatsword is 3050, and 1/3 of that is 1016 gp, 66 sp, and 67 cp, wbich is almost enough for 3.5 pounds of adamantine to make an eight pound sword..............
Clearly something does not work.
So if they deleted the generic pricing of Adamantine eauipment, you could figure the price for the sword at the cost of the adamantine plus a price they could determine for labor and misc costs, or just how it is, if just for raw materials then raw materials would be 8 pounds of adamantine at 2400 pounds, so three times that would be 7200 gold which could be how tbeh decide to leave it, because now it is on par with crafting every other weapon, the rules for crafting would be a page that had formulas and their explanations at most, it is not a complicated ordeal.
Matthew Downie wrote: Unless you also house-rule what adamantine does, you're just making things like the adamantine cestus (weighs 1lb, so 500gp under the proposed pricing system) really underpriced for what it does. The descriptions for adamantine and mithral state they are used on items that are mostly metal, non metal items cannot be made from adamantine and mithral, also all by the time someone has resources to consider adamantine, I doubt they will nit pick over how cheap of a weapon to make, damage dice, critcal range and multiplier, and feats they have selected applying to certain weapon will influence which items they want made from adamantine.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gee, I wonder what happens when the OP gets to rules for falling damage...
Queen Moragan wrote: IMO, cestus would a be mostly leather weapon, as studded leather would be a leather armor. Adding adamantine, to either would only increase the cost.
Little problems like that can be home brewed away without being a purist about REAL weapons & armor.
It says clearly you can only use adamantine on items normally made by steel, so wooden and leather items such as leather armor could not be used.
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Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Gauss wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Gauss wrote: Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.
It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.
Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)
There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.
Say what you will but this does have to do with the pricing rules for crafting and special materials, something they have admitted is flawed for mithral and trying to fix. I am bringing up how inconsistent both adamantine and mithral are together and seperately. This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.
Rules Forum description wrote: This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum. Pathfinder RPG General Discussion description wrote: This forum is for general comments about the Pathfinder RPG and discussing the system with other gamers. There is no question here, this is a discussion. Once more I disagree, hes it has become a conversation, and yes I have decided to fix this problem for myself until Paizo decides to fix the problem or give a response. The original question and topic involve rules for special materials that are inconsistant. I prefer playing by the rules written than making my own up, that way the game does not get watered down with house rules. I have identified something that I view as an issue and I want feedback,... There is no problem. The rules regarding pricing work fine.
Your entire post has come off as a 'I don't like that the pricing rules work this way'. Not as a 'could you help clear up something?' question.
You knew how they worked, you just didn't like it. This is not a rules question, it is a rules suggestion/discussion (starting with your first post) and as such belongs in a different forum.
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote: Gauss wrote: This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion. Actually - I think that it should go to the Homebrew board.
Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew wrote: Post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here. Except I dont want a homebrew solution, I want rules that work. Something my players cannot break an economy with or exploit, and something where I dont have to be one of those GMs that has to make up rules and say my way or the highway. This will NEVER happen. Gold is not economically driven. It is driven by 'what is the power level of this item'. Get over the economy side of things, it will never happen.
Your players cannot break the "economy" if you do not let them.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Queen Moragan wrote: IMO Paizo is never going to change the pricing for what you want.
You'll have to Home Brew it, just make a list (or pencil it into your book), for each weapon and armor entry. What % is metal, wood, and leather. That should cover 95% of your needs.
Also ignore all the purists and their weapon and armor stats too. Keep the PF weights for weapons & armors, otherwise you'll bog down into needless details.
Is having a simple formula to apply towards all items that complex of an idea. No need to pencil in anything, a simple formula works, like for magic items, they give rules for pricing magic items, they dont actually price and list every combination of magic weapons and armor out there. As it stands the rules for crafting are spend 1/3 of the full value of the item on raw materials, and just using an adamantine greatsword here with the prices given for adamantine for now, the full value of an adamantine greatsword is 3050, and 1/3 of that is 1016 gp, 66 sp, and 67 cp, wbich is almost enough for 3.5 pounds of adamantine to make an eight pound sword..............
Clearly something does not work.
So if they deleted the generic pricing of Adamantine eauipment, you could figure the price for the sword at the cost of the adamantine plus a price they could determine for labor and misc costs, or just how it is, if just for raw materials then raw materials would be 8 pounds of adamantine at 2400 pounds, so three times that would be 7200 gold which could be how tbeh decide to leave it, because now it is on par with crafting every other weapon, the rules for crafting would be a page that had formulas and their explanations at most, it is not a complicated ordeal. The Craft skill refers you back to the Equipment Tables, that is where the cost and weight for every item is located. It would be far simpler to add a column for metal/wood/leather percentages, and then use the price per pound listed in the special material description, than it would be to add a page of mathematical formulae.
That is what I believe you are asking for, a consistant value between adamantine and mithral manufactured items. The only way to do that so that it is not needlessly complex is by the pound.
Gorbacz wrote: Gee, I wonder what happens when the OP gets to rules for falling damage... it will blow his mind
To complicate matters, in the old AD&D mithril ore and adamantine ore were materials that were forged with iron to make the alloys mithral and adamantium. The drow adamantium forging process was dependent on special "radiation" and inherently unstable and broke down in sunlight and above ground. So adamantium was no go for player characters. There were prices per pound for these materials because Against the Drow PCs found ingots of the stuff.
Now, with Pathfinder, the +3000 is linked simply to the process of making the adamantine weapon. So the complaint is that it is not reasonable on a per pound basis. But it is reasonable to say that the issue isn't the materials available but the PROCESS of forging an adamantine weapon (or armor). The weapon forger wants the gold for the work; the cost of the metal is less significant. The PC gets the whatever with the special qualities desired. With adamantine the +3000 trumps the normal +300 cost of a masterwork weapon. So there is no need for it be proportional to the weight of the weapon.
As is. All good.
Either you're unhappy with the current rules and want a change to fit your ideals or you want to homebrew rules. Either way, it belongs in another forums. Flagged to be moved.
Gorbacz wrote: Gee, I wonder what happens when the OP gets to rules for falling damage... Nothing those rules are not nearly as broken.
Queen Moragan wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Queen Moragan wrote: IMO Paizo is never going to change the pricing for what you want.
You'll have to Home Brew it, just make a list (or pencil it into your book), for each weapon and armor entry. What % is metal, wood, and leather. That should cover 95% of your needs.
Also ignore all the purists and their weapon and armor stats too. Keep the PF weights for weapons & armors, otherwise you'll bog down into needless details.
Is having a simple formula to apply towards all items that complex of an idea. No need to pencil in anything, a simple formula works, like for magic items, they give rules for pricing magic items, they dont actually price and list every combination of magic weapons and armor out there. As it stands the rules for crafting are spend 1/3 of the full value of the item on raw materials, and just using an adamantine greatsword here with the prices given for adamantine for now, the full value of an adamantine greatsword is 3050, and 1/3 of that is 1016 gp, 66 sp, and 67 cp, wbich is almost enough for 3.5 pounds of adamantine to make an eight pound sword..............
Clearly something does not work.
So if they deleted the generic pricing of Adamantine eauipment, you could figure the price for the sword at the cost of the adamantine plus a price they could determine for labor and misc costs, or just how it is, if just for raw materials then raw materials would be 8 pounds of adamantine at 2400 pounds, so three times that would be 7200 gold which could be how tbeh decide to leave it, because now it is on par with crafting every other weapon, the rules for crafting would be a page that had formulas and their explanations at most, it is not a complicated ordeal. The Craft skill refers you back to the Equipment Tables, that is where the cost and weight for every item is located. It would be far simpler to add a column for metal/wood/leather percentages, and then use the price per pound listed in the special material description, than... They already give a description for most items, and the cost of those other materials is insignificant enough for the crafting rules that they do not even matter and it is not a page of formulas, it is a single formula for all special materials, it asks you to find the weight of the item, multiply the weight of the item (mithral would have a note to take half the weight) and mhltiply that number by the base cost, and since you want to include all the insignificant materials that factor little into the weight or cost add 1/3 the value of the base item, then to calculate the cost of the final good, multiply that number by three. All items made from special materials fit that requirement, it is a simple fix.
Gauss wrote: Robert Jenkins 953 wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote: Gauss wrote: This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion. Actually - I think that it should go to the Homebrew board.
Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew wrote: Post your rules suggestions, house rules, variant classes, homebrew settings, etc. here. Except I dont want a homebrew solution, I want rules that work. Something my players cannot break an economy with or exploit, and something where I dont have to be one of those GMs that has to make up rules and say my way or the highway. This will NEVER happen. Gold is not economically driven. It is driven by 'what is the power level of this item'. Get over the economy side of things, it will never happen.
Your players cannot break the "economy" if you do not let them. The power level of this item and gold still corelate just fine if tbeh made a change to make it right. The effects do not change the game enough that someone would forgo any feats they had in the early levels for a weapon liie a greatsword so they couod be a cheapsskate and use a dagger to save gold, also damage dice and other weapon features alone should balance that out. Plus by the time you have enough gopd to afford a weapon or armor made by a special material, a difference in gold is not going to sway someone one way or the other for something they plan on using longterm. As for power level of an item, mundane items technically dont have one. They do include wealth charts for level progression, who would buy a adamantine dagger for 902 good for a 1d4 when they could douboe down their money for a +1 weapon of their choice? Who honestly would buy an adamantine dagger period? Someone with excess gold. These are broken rules, that shouod be fixed.
parsimony wrote: To complicate matters, in the old AD&D mithril ore and adamantine ore were materials that were forged with iron to make the alloys mithral and adamantium. The drow adamantium forging process was dependent on special "radiation" and inherently unstable and broke down in sunlight and above ground. So adamantium was no go for player characters. There were prices per pound for these materials because Against the Drow PCs found ingots of the stuff.
Now, with Pathfinder, the +3000 is linked simply to the process of making the adamantine weapon. So the complaint is that it is not reasonable on a per pound basis. But it is reasonable to say that the issue isn't the materials available but the PROCESS of forging an adamantine weapon (or armor). The weapon forger wants the gold for the work; the cost of the metal is less significant. The PC gets the whatever with the special qualities desired. With adamantine the +3000 trumps the normal +300 cost of a masterwork weapon. So there is no need for it be proportional to the weight of the weapon.
As is. All good.
parsimony wrote: To complicate matters, in the old AD&D mithril ore and adamantine ore were materials that were forged with iron to make the alloys mithral and adamantium. The drow adamantium forging process was dependent on special "radiation" and inherently unstable and broke down in sunlight and above ground. So adamantium was no go for player characters. There were prices per pound for these materials because Against the Drow PCs found ingots of the stuff.
Now, with Pathfinder, the +3000 is linked simply to the process of making the adamantine weapon. So the complaint is that it is not reasonable on a per pound basis. But it is reasonable to say that the issue isn't the materials available but the PROCESS of forging an adamantine weapon (or armor). The weapon forger wants the gold for the work; the cost of the metal is less significant. The PC gets the whatever with the special qualities desired. With adamantine the +3000 trumps the normal +300 cost of a masterwork weapon. So there is no need for it be proportional to the weight of the weapon.
As is. All good.
The weapon forger loses gold based on the price of the materials how it is now for any weapon more than 3 pounds, and the ruoes are busted, AD&D has no value here, theh gave the prices of the metals, and in both cases neither are made with iron, nor are they alloys. They could simply remove the listed prices of the metals and all would be fine, but they did not go that route. The complaint is the rules do not agree with each other and even then the rates given for the special materials make no sense themselves and give way for ways the exploit the world economy. Have you not read anything I have said?
You keep overlooking the mechanical advantage of the material property. Adamantine weapons bypass hardness in addition to DR/adamantine.
That mechanical advantage has a flat value, it doesn't matter what the damage of the weapon is.
(For that matter, weapon damage dice is usually the smallest component of damage. The difference between the average damage of an adamantine dagger and an adamantine long sword is 2 points.)
They are not broken rules, you are failing to understand the reason for the rules. This is clear by you trying to compare adamantine to a +1 weapon.
People have been telling you this for the entire thread. It is clear you are refusing to understand this. Moving on now, there is nothing else to be gained by continuing this discussion with you.
Blackvial wrote: Gorbacz wrote: Gee, I wonder what happens when the OP gets to rules for falling damage... it will blow his mind Or nothing at all.
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