Will I be allowed to use a digital character sheet in organized play?


Pathfinder Society

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1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given what has evolved from when I started playing not too long ago, it's a lot more fair than it was in the past...

1/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Is that fair, especially if it isn't your fault you have to switch to a pregen?
Yes, because it is your responsibility to have a copy of your character sheet, and because you willingly chose to continue play with a pre-gen rather than leave the table.

While this thread focuses on digital character sheets, the issue of having to play a pregen is actually broader. What if someone's paper character sheet becomes unreadable due to having gunk spilled on to it by someone else or gets stolen off the table with the player's back turned. Are any or all of these a reason to force the player to use a pregen?

3/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

"The campaign recognizes the use of technology in the Pathfinder Society organized play program and the variety of tools available to players. However, a player must possess a clear and legible character sheet that they are comfortable giving to a GM to review. There is no standard character sheet format required. Regarding electronic devices, if you are not comfortable with a GM viewing (and perhaps briefly handling) the device in order to review your character information, you should consider keeping character information in a format you are willing to hand to a GM."

So regardless of the 600+ opinions in the thread, reading Tonya's message above, as long as I'm comfortable handing my tablet/laptop/device to the GM I no longer need to bring a paper copy of the character sheet, correct?

But chronicle sheets should still be brought in paper form even if scanned in and available?

The Exchange 5/5

jcg wrote:

"The campaign recognizes the use of technology in the Pathfinder Society organized play program and the variety of tools available to players. However, a player must possess a clear and legible character sheet that they are comfortable giving to a GM to review. There is no standard character sheet format required. Regarding electronic devices, if you are not comfortable with a GM viewing (and perhaps briefly handling) the device in order to review your character information, you should consider keeping character information in a format you are willing to hand to a GM."

So regardless of the 600+ opinions in the thread, reading Tonya's message above, as long as I'm comfortable handing my tablet/laptop/device to the GM I no longer need to bring a paper copy of the character sheet, correct?

But chronicle sheets should still be brought in paper form even if scanned in and available?

Correct .. however, I would implore people to remember the GMs that may not be comfortable handling someone elses' electronic item and bring the paper copy anyway


kinevon wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Why does it have to be entirely the player's choice? We can "have a character sheet you don't mind handing to the GM if requested," but what about "a character sheet the GM doesn't mind handing?" Due to the [albeit very limited] chance of damage, I am not comfortable handling someone's device and standing behind them trying to get them to click where you want to look next is not ideal. It will likely slow an already arduous task, especially if I only want to do a quick scan looking for anything that should peak my interest.

A printed character sheet is more accommodating and is virtually indestructible from handling. A GM's job is already an extremely involved one that starts well before the game session and often after it ends. I don't understand the [insistent] need to make it harder than it needs to be. Just print a copy of your PC. Its just a few pieces of paper and minimal amounts of ink. It hurts no one to be a tad more prepared. If you fear for the environment, we can recycle the paper. No worries. Not to mention, there is always the chance the digital device fails, not just from battery life, but a random crash. No one wants to be "forced" to play a pregen to complete their session. A printed character sheet solves the problem with a minimal of effort. No solution will be 100% fool-proof, but having a printed sheet to backup your device covers the widest possible conditions with the fewest potential problems.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Just for a counterpoint:

Multi-day convention, away form home. Playing the same PC through a series.
Not easy to print out a "current" version of the same PC for 6-9 slots, with 1 or 2 level-ups happening.

Another exampel: I use a laser printer, and the toner cartridge, while it is good for about 2,500 pages, still runs out without warning, and sometimes I don't have enough disposable money available to buy a new toner right away.

Also, to those concerned about forcing the player to keep the pregen credit on the same PC who started the game, consider the opposite side of the coin. It is very possible that you start the game with a PC at, for example, 5th level in a teir 1-5 scenario. For some reason, your device dies/someone spills molasses on your character sheet, what-have-you, forcing you to play a pregen instead of your real PC. However, because of the situation, the pregen is not only not as optimized/focused as your real PC, it is lower level, increasing the risk factor. Is that fair, especially if it isn't your fault you have to switch to a pregen?

Well, you could keep multiple copies on hand, in case of molasses accidents?

From what I understand, many conventions have access to printers. Not only that, many hotels have access for their guests to printers. Kinkos, UPS stores, various office stores, coffee shops, internet cafes and more have printers. As far as I know most events aren't being held in the middle of nowhere. There are ways to correct the problem.

Print 20 copies in your spare time and keep them in a folder if you have problems with spills. Keep a device to power up your machine, or have a second or third device. There are ways to protect yourself and take responsibility. Then there isn't a concern whether or not it is fair; you're golden.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Is that fair, especially if it isn't your fault you have to switch to a pregen?
Yes, because it is your responsibility to have a copy of your character sheet, and because you willingly chose to continue play with a pre-gen rather than leave the table.

And, as my post mentioned, what if someone spills something on your paper character sheets that makes them unusable, whether it is the molasses I mentioned, or something else that essentially destroys your character sheet?

Please understand that, at least in part, I am including a sub-text of various other things that can make "continuing with a pregen" the only viable choice. Some of those things include:
Having to use public transportation (So, I can continue to play with a pregen, or wait at the bus stop for 20-50 minutes for the bus I would have taken anyhow. Or take the bus instead of waiting for the other player in the game who gave me the ride there, and was going to give me a ride home, when the scenario ends in 1-3.5 hours, the ride takes 20 minutes, and the bus ride is 90 minutes on two buses.)

Oh, and to Bob J on handwriting the PC info on the back of a chronicle: Is that any worse than someone with Doctor quality writing using pencil (and eraser) on the same character sheet that they have been using since first level on a PC who is now 11th level or higher?

3/5

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I do not understand why this is such a big deal.

Why can we not work together as reasonable people.

If i am scared of damaging someones device, I am sure we can work out a compromise.

If someone has a dying device work together to find a solution.

Why fight people on such a silly thing.

There are countless possible solutions. And try to not be that jerk that makes people compromise because you brought a device that failed.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Pink Dragon wrote:
What if someone's paper character sheet becomes unreadable due to having gunk spilled on to it by someone else or gets stolen off the table with the player's back turned. Are any or all of these a reason to force the player to use a pregen?

IMO, it is a matter of personal responsibility. If some unusually unexpected event occurs that cannot be planned for, then maybe the player is given the benefit of the doubt. No one is saying you have to keep multiple copies of your CS or more than one digital device. But, batteries running out or a system crash are not uncommon occurrences so it could be argued the player owns the responsibility of being prepared. If you could have reasonably anticipated an incident, then you should take precautions.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

kinevon wrote:
Oh, and to Bob J on handwriting the PC info on the back of a chronicle: Is that any worse than someone with Doctor quality writing using pencil (and eraser) on the same character sheet that they have been using since first level on a PC who is now 11th level or higher?

I presume that everyone that plays has at least an elementary education and is capable, if they want to, to produce a legible document. There are times in RL that people have to complete written documents. Are you telling me that they are incapable of doing so such that someone can read it? Sorry, I'm not buying that excuse. I do not have the best casual handwriting, but if it is going to be read by someone else, taking my time, I can easily produce something acceptable. And if your character sheet is getting raggy from erasures, they transfer it to a new sheet. Its really not rocket science.

I just hope that everyone that is militant about not bringing paper backup for their digital character sheet never experiences a system failure or a battery run-down. Or if you do, you accept the GMs decision on how to handle it because to be completely honest, you've got no one to blame but yourself. IMO, having the printed backup protected everyone on both sides of the argument but, after all this banter, the rule is what it is. Tonya made a change. The rest of all this is just wasted time and breath.

Dark Archive 1/5

One reason I prefer a printout for physical sheets. Even I sometimes have trouble reading my own handwriting.

3/5

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Why are we looking for reasons to not let people play?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Finlanderboy wrote:
Why are we looking for reasons to not let people play?

Some players seem to use that as a license to do whatever they want, create conflict (intentional or otherwise), not take personal responsibility, whatever [your] personal hang-up might be. It is similar in that to the old Play! Play! Play! rule that some used as a justification for bad or at least disruptive behavior.

3/5

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Why are we looking for reasons to not let people play?
Some players seem to use that as a license to do whatever they want, create conflict (intentional or otherwise), not take personal responsibility, whatever [your] personal hang-up might be. It is similar in that to the old Play! Play! Play! rule that some used as a justification for bad or at least disruptive behavior.

Then be the reasonable side.

Say if you find some player scribbling on a piece of paper horribly, provide a solution you would find acceptable.

Some player looking to play and their device dies and scribbling madly to continue play does not seem like the example you include to not include.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
It is similar in that to the old Play! Play! Play! rule that some used as a justification for bad or at least disruptive behavior.

Bob it was Play, Play, Play!... *Head explodes*

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

I found it quite useful to bring a couple of blank character sheets to PFS events, they don't make my existing load that much worse (pavement has not cracked just yet).

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Steven Lau wrote:
Bob it was Play, Play, Play!... *Head explodes*

I wondered if the components for that summoning spell still worked :-D

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Finlanderboy wrote:
provide a solution you would find acceptable

Not everyone's solution is going to be equally acceptable is the point. With a little forethought and preparation, [almost] nothing that happens at the table will require a solution in the first place. Its very similar to the gray area discussions. The reality is, if you don't want to depend on table variation going your way, don't put yourself in a position of having to deal with it when it doesn't. Just seems like good advice.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
provide a solution you would find acceptable
Not everyone's solution is going to be equally acceptable is the point. With a little forethought and preparation, [almost] nothing that happens at the table will require a solution in the first place..

Please do not tempt the universe like that. Its really only a small step below saying you're too old for this....

3/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
provide a solution you would find acceptable
Not everyone's solution is going to be equally acceptable is the point. With a little forethought and preparation, [almost] nothing that happens at the table will require a solution in the first place. Its very similar to the gray area discussions. The reality is, if you don't want to depend on table variation going you way, don't put yourself in a position of having to deal with it when it doesn't. Just seems like good advice.

Let me place this right here..

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Finlanderboy wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
provide a solution you would find acceptable
Not everyone's solution is going to be equally acceptable is the point. With a little forethought and preparation, [almost] nothing that happens at the table will require a solution in the first place. Its very similar to the gray area discussions. The reality is, if you don't want to depend on table variation going you way, don't put yourself in a position of having to deal with it when it doesn't. Just seems like good advice.

Let me place this right here..

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Yes, but Cooperate means everyone, the players and the GMs, and everyone involved should consider how their actions can affect the experience of others.

If the GM can only ever audit your character on your phone screen, that doesn't make his job easier, so it is always preferable to find a workable solution for everyone involved.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Finlanderboy wrote:

Let me place this right here..

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Surely so, but it also does not absolve players (and GMs) of responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof).

Grand Lodge 3/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


If the GM can only ever audit your character on your phone screen, that doesn't make his job easier

This. This is the thing that I find most frustrating about the rule reversal.

I've dealt with players in the past who were using their phone as a character sheet/PDF storage device. I think it's inconsiderate to expect a GM to have to look at your character or the rules for your obscure spell/power/item on a tiny phone screen.

I thought we were done with that (or at least the character sheet part anyways) with Mike's ruling. I'm dissapointed.

Dark Archive 1/5

dwayne germaine wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


If the GM can only ever audit your character on your phone screen, that doesn't make his job easier

This. This is the thing that I find most frustrating about the rule reversal.

I've dealt with players in the past who were using their phone as a character sheet/PDF storage device. I think it's inconsiderate to expect a GM to have to look at your character or the rules for your obscure spell/power/item on a tiny phone screen.

I thought we were done with that (or at least the character sheet part anyways) with Mike's ruling. I'm dissapointed.

I would too. Fortunately I have a tablet with a decent sized screen. :)

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

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All:

The campaign rules are designed to provide a framework which works to promote a shared Pathfinder and gaming experience for players and GMs alike. Where there are some absolutely explicit provisions contained within those rules, GMs are left in many cases with the authority to interpret other rules (including game rules) as may be necessary to provide a better experience for all.

GMs and players alike, as well as all members of the Venture-Officer core, have a duty to follow and implement the rules as faithfully as possible, giving proper attention to not only the text of the rule but the intent of the rule as well (and for purposes of this, I am speaking specifically to the campaign rules, not the game rules - RAW vs. RAI for game rules is another discussion.)

Our new OPC has changed a prior OPC's ruling related to character sheets. That is her prerogative, and in exercising it, the ruling of the previous OPC is no longer material. In providing her new ruling, she has also provided guidance as to what happens in the situation where a player's electronic device has failed. We have her new ruling, along with its intended purpose, and knowing those two things, we all have a duty to follow them as best we can, in accordance with both the text of the rule and the intent.

A GM who says, "Well, I am going to require all players to bring their characters on paper" is not complying with the rule. A GM has not authority to make that requirement. Players are free to use electronic devices for their characters, and a GM who outright refuses them the ability to do so is not in compliance with this rule. A GM may prohibit a specific player (or players) from using such devices when they [the playersbecome disruptive or use such devices in a fashion that does not comport with other rules (cheating, "don't be a jerk", etc.) A GM may also require the player to use a paper character sheet as one option in addressing the situation where a player's device fails (it dies, crashes, has a dead battery, etc.) [As a personal note, I think every player should, as a matter of good practice and exercise in being responsible, bring his or her character and supporting documents on paper just as a precaution, whether or not he or she will need to rely on them.]

All of us, every GM, player, Venture-Officer, Paizo staff member, etc. are responsible for the success of the organized player campaign, and as such, every one of us is required to try to work together to address situations as they arise. We don't play in an adversarial environment (it's not a courtroom) - it is not, or should not be, "GM vs. players." If that is your mentality as a GM or player, you should perhaps rethink your involvement in the organized play community.

Please, my fellow Pathfinders, let us not put out any hard and fast absolutes, but work to comply with the rules in a way that maximizes the opportunity for all to have a better organized play experience.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Some years ago, a player showed up at my table with his character on five 3-by-5 cards, in heavily-erased pencil. I let him play his (pretty complicated) PC, but there was no rhyme or reason as to what information was on what side of what card.

Today, I wouldn't let him play with that, because I couldn't read it. Even though it was on paper.

I intend to treat electronics the same way. Scrolling through a little phone screen feels similar to me to scribbled cards. Looking at a Hero-Lab layout on a tablet reader seems the same as looking at any other clean character sheet.

And I'll need the Chronicle sheets on paper, and up-to-date.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Chris Mortika wrote:

Some years ago, a player showed up at my table with his character on five 3-by-5 cards, in heavily-erased pencil. I let him play his (pretty complicated) PC, but there was no rhyme or reason as to what information was on what side of what card.

Today, I wouldn't let him play with that, because I couldn't read it. Even though it was on paper.

I intend to treat electronics the same way. Scrolling through a little phone screen feels similar to me to scribbled cards. Looking at a Hero-Lab layout on a tablet reader seems the same as looking at any other clean character sheet.

And I'll need the Chronicle sheets on paper, and up-to-date.

I used to play with an engineer with an true engineer mind set, i.e. he can't just design and build something, he has to make it perfect. He couldn't stand the published character sheets that were out. None of them made any sense. Everything was in the wrong place and he could never find what he was looking for. So he designed his own using Excel. When he ran his home game, he insisted we all use his character sheet so he could find stuff at a glance on our character sheets. Problem was is his character sheet didn't make any sense to us. Everything was in the wrong place and we could never find what we were looking for. How his mind organized data was just alien to us.


trollbill wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Some years ago, a player showed up at my table with his character on five 3-by-5 cards, in heavily-erased pencil. I let him play his (pretty complicated) PC, but there was no rhyme or reason as to what information was on what side of what card.

Today, I wouldn't let him play with that, because I couldn't read it. Even though it was on paper.

I intend to treat electronics the same way. Scrolling through a little phone screen feels similar to me to scribbled cards. Looking at a Hero-Lab layout on a tablet reader seems the same as looking at any other clean character sheet.

And I'll need the Chronicle sheets on paper, and up-to-date.

I used to play with an engineer with an true engineer mind set, i.e. he can't just design and build something, he has to make it perfect. He couldn't stand the published character sheets that were out. None of them made any sense. Everything was in the wrong place and he could never find what he was looking for. So he designed his own using Excel. When he ran his home game, he insisted we all use his character sheet so he could find stuff at a glance on our character sheets. Problem was is his character sheet didn't make any sense to us. Everything was in the wrong place and we could never find what we were looking for. How his mind organized data was just alien to us.

I know the feeling I like in-depth sheets personally (in 3.5 I used a 30 page character folio for almost all my characters) but I have learned that others just get overwhelmed when looking over my character so I tend to keep a digital version of a basic sheet so I can print and hand out or email as needed for people who don't want to look over a 10-12 page sheet to find my list of consumables or my feats.

Dark Archive 1/5

Kinda like how I often struggle to find where something is on my printed character sheet. Or in stat blocks for npcs. I know the info is there, but the layout confuses me.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

There is a strong advantage to having a uniform layout and format for character data.

Pathfinder doesn't have that.

They have the short stat blocks that are normally used for NPCs, the sheets found in the Core Rule Book, the Player Character Folio, and any format people come up with for themselves.

The closest thing that Pathfinder has to uniform presentation is the stat blocks. With enough GMing people get good at reading the stat blocks. They learn exactly where things are supposed to be so that they can find what they need. I would expect some experienced GMs to actually prefer those over other presentations because they have trained themselves in exactly where things are supposed to be.

The stat blocks don't help you much if you need to figure out what bonuses have been applied. That is where other formats tend to be much better.

5/5 5/55/55/5

trollbill wrote:


It comes from the contradictory nature of the game. Pathfinder is a social game usually played by people with poor social skills.

Or you know, different people having different views of how seriously to take this.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BretI wrote:
I would expect some experienced GMs to actually prefer those over other presentations because they have trained themselves in exactly where things are supposed to be.

And this is exactly why all my characters are in stat-block format. I spend more time GMing than playing my characters anyway, so I need to get used to stat-block format.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a few more derailing/argumentative posts and closing this one. We've previously locked it, had to remove heated posts, and got a new ruling from Tonya. I don't think continued debate in this particular thread is all that productive.

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