Complete Cleric Overhaul Project / AKA 'Unchained Cleric'


Homebrew and House Rules

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It's come up before, and will come up again, that the cleric could use some revision. Hell, it's come up now.

I've been working on my own cleric rewrite for quite a while, but I'm curious - what do you think about the cleric? Does it work? What do you like, what don't you like? How would you change the cleric, or how do you think it should be changed?

Things I like

- The Theme. Clerics are a cool idea - gods and domains add a lot of instant flavor and a strong sense of character.

- The cleric is a badass. Not every cleric needs to be smashing someone in the face with a hammer, but even the most retiring cleric is still *tough*.

- Subtlety/mix of abilities - I'm not sure I've put this well, but in any role they fill, clerics are usually fulfilling that role in an interesting way. Battle Clerics/C-zilla aren't just melee monsters; they're blending spells into their combat abilities. Caster clerics aren't just wizards with a holy symbol.

Things I don't like

Little diversity, little customization.

Ultimately almost all my complaints boil down to every cleric being almost exactly the same. While there is some variation in the focus of a character (a battle cleric with strong melee, a debuffing lord of the dead), these characters are basically built on the same chassis. Domains and gods have fairly minimal impact on the structure of the character, and beyond that, there's nothing to decide.

(As a corollary to that, every ability/choice you make as a cleric is decided at level one. What's my god? What domains? Positive or negative energy (if not decided by my god).)

Bland spell list - Cleric spells are *alright*, but certainly nothing to write home about. Most clerics are taking the same spells every time, unless they know they need some situational buff/restoration.

I also think the cleric suffers somewhat from pigeonholing - in 1st & 2nd ed, a cleric was really 1 thing. A beefy dude in plate armor casting heal spells in between hitting things with a mace.

How I'd like to improve the cleric

Bring Domains/Deities to the foreground. I'd like to see many of the cleric's features derive from their god or faith. Your choice of deity/domains should ideally be build defining.

Improved Channel Energy - personally I think channel energy is a really cool feature, except that it's fairly narrow, it's useless in most cases but overpowering in others, and ultimately scales in usefulness poorly. As a feature I think it stems from the same old idea of the classic cleric. I'd like variant/domain channeling expanded on, and for channeling to be a viable and interesting tool in many encounters.

Customization, and customization across levels. Clerics should have something like revelations - fairly powerful talents that can be build defining or give them cool and interesting new abilities as they advance.

More interesting spell list - specifically, I'd like to expand on the 'Domain spells' idea. Cleric's spells are directly granted by their god, and should reflect their god. There may be a good number of spells any cleric can cast, but spell lists should be more in line with their source.

Thoughts?


Domain spells should probably be 2-3 spells of each level, instead of 1 spell per level. You should be able to prepare and cast them as normal spells, or perhaps spontaneously cast them. If you can spontaneously cast domain spells, Healing/inflicting should be limited to domains that heal/inflict. Also, domains shouldn't yank spells that are already on the Cleric list, or if they do, they should always grant early access. Maybe a healing cleric can get Cure Light Wounds as a cantrip, Cure Moderate Wounds as a 1st level spell, Cure Serious as a 2nd, etc?

Perhaps there should be specializations- battle clerics get medium, maybe heavy armor, Divine Favor and similar spells, and maybe a feat or two in that direction. Caster clerics would get a divine focus like a wizard's arcane focus, perhaps a Monk-like AC boost (based on CHA, perhaps?) and a pseudo Versatile Performance, based on professions instead of perform skills. Or perhaps you get a pool of 3 "domains", and you can either select 3 domains, 2 domains and the battle cleric specialization, 2 domains and the skill specialization, or 1 domain and the battle cleric and skill specializations?


It's very important to keep the spell list as it is with full access. Many iconic monsters are designed around the assumption that every party has a cleric that can cast any spell on that list given advanced notice. Domains can add more spells to that list, but the core list needs to stay.

I'd suggest making domains the gatekeepers for an even level selectable ability: you choose two domains and then every eg. two levels you pick a domain power from one or the other.

I'd imagine a table looking something like:
1: domains, first domain ability, channel energy
2: second domain ability
3: spontaneous cures
4: third domain ability
5: prepare domain spells in standard slots
6: fourth domain ability
7: minimum spell preparation reduced to 1 minute
8: fifth domain ability
10: sixth domain ability
12: seventh domain ability
14: eighth domain ability
16: ninth domain ability
18: tenth domain ability
20: capstone: maybe gain outsider type?


Atarlost wrote:

It's very important to keep the spell list as it is with full access. Many iconic monsters are designed around the assumption that every party has a cleric that can cast any spell on that list given advanced notice. Domains can add more spells to that list, but the core list needs to stay.

I'd suggest making domains the gatekeepers for an even level selectable ability: you choose two domains and then every eg. two levels you pick a domain power from one or the other.

I'd imagine a table looking something like:
1: domains, first domain ability, channel energy
2: second domain ability
3: spontaneous cures
4: third domain ability
5: prepare domain spells in standard slots
6: fourth domain ability
7: minimum spell preparation reduced to 1 minute
8: fifth domain ability
10: sixth domain ability
12: seventh domain ability
14: eighth domain ability
16: ninth domain ability
18: tenth domain ability
20: capstone: maybe gain outsider type?

I'd disagree with keeping the whole list. The majority of what needs to be kept are the status removals (remove curse, restoration, heal, raise dead, etc.) and the enemy debuffs (invisibility purge, ghostbane dirge, protection from alignment, etc.) Cures should be kept because it would be embarrassing for a bard to heal better than a Cleric. The rest can be delegated to domains. Not all clerics need to make magic rocks or create earthquakes. Similarly, not all clerics need to have the ability to self-buff into a monster, only battle clerics should.


The actual base spell list for a cleric should probably be cut down a bit. Every cleric should be able to 'bless' someone, or cast a 'prayer' over them. But call fire from the heavens? Nope. Blast enemies with unholy power? Probably not. Walk on air? No. I think knowing this baseline, what every cleric could do, might be the best way to proceed with reworking domains and channel energy into viable class abilities.


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Some rough ideas:

* Throw away a lot of the cleric known spell list. Reduce it to healing, restoring and some buffing. Now add several known spells per spell level and per domain. Domain slots no longer exist. Learning spells from other sources is disallowed. By god. Using scrolls with other spells is only allowed if the god would provide this spell via a domain (cleric doesn't have to have this domain). This way you get a focused, unique caster each time.

* Spontaneous casting works for heal spells, restore spells (e.g. remove curse) and one spell per domain.

* Give him bonus feats for further customization. Each domain should unlock fitting channel energy feats. Add some more feats to the mix, like general channel feats (e.g. Extra Channel), Domain Strike, some domain feats yet to come (e.g. Extra Domain Use), Medium Armor Profiency (see below), Heavy Armor Profiency and Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).

* Domain powers need a slight power upgrade in some cases, and probably a third, exciting power at high level.

* If the cleric achieves something in favor of his god, he should be rewarded with a temporary bonus. If he fails in something, he should suffer from a temporary penalty of equal strength. I think 'cleric falls' is too binary, but might still have its rare uses.

* Since these changes make the cleric more powerful (in average), I'd remove Medium Armor Profiency and the strong Fortitude save. I know it hurts, but the first also means full move speed for any cleric (makes running for injured comrades easier) and the second can be compensated with spells.

So this cleric would still have spells as primary feature, with a list tailored to their domains. Channel energy and domain powers get a slight upgrade, partially because of bonus feats - which are now the third secondary feature. Defense becomes weaker, but offense doesn't suffer.


Biggest limitation I've found? Being reduced to a healbot in combat.

Solution: Feat/Item/whatevs that allows Channel Energy and a Single Attack in the same round. This feat/item/whatevs would reduce Channel to either a Move Equiv. or (if really powerful) a Swift Action - thus allowing a Standard Action in addition.


Removing the battle cleric spells relegates all clerics without a few select domains that get those spells to uselessness. No more battle clerics of Erastil or Torag or Sarenrae or Abadar or Asmodeus or Norgober. Removing air walk means no long range travel. Every full caster has a long range travel spell at that level for a reason. The game economy, such as it is, breaks down without them.

The number of spells that can be removed that anyone will even notice is so small that it's far from worth the trouble of making a new list and revising it every time any publisher whose products you allow at your table publishes anything that has spells. The list would have to be grossly off base to be worth that sort of headache.


I'm still working on my own Cleric redo but am playing around with incorporating things from Secrets of Divine Channeling and the Exalted Domains from Super Genius Games.


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On the topic of spell list:

I agree not every spell needs to be kept, and I also agree that not every cleric needs to be able to cast flame strike/etc.

While I disagree that if you take away the battle cleric spells all clerics suck (there are some cleric builds that don't smash face) - but I do think that most of the basic bolstering/buffing spells can probably afford to stick around.

That said, I *don't* think every cleric needs to be a battle cleric, or that there necessarily *should* be battle clerics of every deity. Part of this project would be to diversify and improve the options for clerics to specialize into different roles.

I went through every spell from the CRB as a place to start, and out of 224 spells I found about 25-35, including some major ones, that I would say definitely say don't belong on every cleric's list. I think ~50 more are somewhat questionable, but many of those are still basic bolstering spells that I wouldn't really mind sticking around. I count only ~5 movement spells like air walk and wind walk.

Obviously there's splatbooks for miles, but what this exercise + instinct tells me is that the core cleric list isn't really the problem, though it could afford to be cleaned up. Rather, I think expanding the domain lists would be a big first step and improvement.

The way I'd do it, I think, is clean up the core cleric list a bit (maybe cut 15-25%), and then review the domain lists - each domain should have ~2-3 spells per level, as MySelf suggested, however rather than getting domain spell slots or spontaneous casting, you'd add all the domain spells of all your deity's domains (5 domains, maybe some sub-domains, for a total of about 15 spells per level) to your cleric list.

As far as battle clerics and such, I don't think you need to strip all the Fight out of the cleric - as I said I think the fact that they're tough is part of the design I like, and if what you want is just a Priest or Cloistered Cleric you should go elsewhere. But I think it should either take significant investment and a specific sort of character to build a true battle cleric.

Atarlost wrote:
No more battle clerics of Erastil or Torag or Sarenrae or Abadar or Asmodeus or Norgober.

Correct. Instead, you'd get a cleric with moderate combat abilities (if that's what you're aiming for), but better/more interesting secondary abilities, more & more useful spells. And if you absolutely want to be wading into combat in heavy armor and worship Erastil... play a Warpriest. Or there could be an archetype similar to Heretic, but less lame, that let's you modify your granted/available abilities.

Liberty's Edge

Whack-a-Rogue wrote:
I'm still working on my own Cleric redo but am playing around with incorporating things from Secrets of Divine Channeling and the Exalted Domains from Super Genius Games.

Interesting thread!

Good call pulling ideas from Exalted Domains! I hear the author is really clever and talented :)


You could ditch domains completely and go with spells and powers determined solely by your choice of deity. Also, on the issue of spell list, some spell levels just don't have many cool spells (looking at you level 3). Some of the spell levels could use some new blood. Not like more powerful spells, but ones that are a little more exciting.


What I'd like to see would actually involve a rebuild of the divine spellcasting classes more generally:

General: Core Divine spell list trimmed, and each Domain/Blessing/Innquisition/Mystery/Spirit gets multiple spells per level and Powers like a mini-Mystery/Spirit (except for Mysteries/Spirits, which remain as full-sized Mysteries/Spirits, although still gaining more spells on their lists per level). This expansion of spells per level in each Domain/Blessing/Inquisition/Mystery/Spirit includes Orisons as well as spells of 1st level and above. If a Domain/Blessing/Inquisition/Mystery gives you a spell that is already on your list, you get specialist benefits with it, provided that you cast it at the higher level if it gives you the spell with early entry (see below for an example). (By the way, I would also recommend something like this for the Core Arcane spell list and Arcane Schools/Bloodlines/etc.) Also, Conjuration (Healing) spells are moved back into Necromancy, where they were in 1st Edition AD&D and where they really belong. Domain/Blessing/Inquisition/Mystery/Spirit Powers also need to be cleaned up so that they are more even in quality for the level at which they become available -- right now, some of them are super-good and some of them just stink.

Cleric: d6 HD, 1/2 BAB, 9/9 prepared spellcaster with (normally) 3 Domains and Oracle-like progression of class abilities (Domain power acquisition). Channel Energy is moved into 2 new Domains: Curing and Infliction (for Positve Energy Channeling and Negative Energy Channeling, respectively), and is these Domains' 1st level active power. Spontaneous casting of Cure and Inflict spells is also moved into these Domains, and is their 1st level passive power, and the corresponding spells are the bonus spells of those Domains even though they also remain in the Core Divine list (so you get specialist benefits for casting them if you pick these Domains). Don't want to be a healbot or taskmaster of Undead? Don't pick those Domains. In the case of these Domains, the specialist benefits would be that Cure spells can heal debilitating injuries on creatures having Positive Energy Affinity (most living creatures) or inflict them on Undead, while Inflict spells do the reverse; without the specialist benefits, these spells can only cure or cause flesh wounds that do not cause debilitation once the immediate danger has been averted. For Stabilize and Bleed (the Orisons in these series of spells), the spells are normally Touch range, and the specialist benefits are instead free Reach Spell (to Close range; in addition, the Spontaneous Casting passive ability of the Domain lets you cast the corresponding Orison even if you do not have it prepared). It is even possible for a deity to offer both of these Domains and for a Cleric to take both of them (thus gaining the ability to Channel Energy of both types). Channel Energy polarity is no longer hard-tied to alignment, although for practical reasons most Good deities will offer Curing but not Infliction and most Evil deities will offer Infliction; Evil deities that offer Curing often also offer nasty double-edged sword buffs that can ride on Variant Positve Energy Channeling as well as Variant Negative Energy Channeling; rare Good deities that offer Infliction tend to offer practical but usually not long-term devastating debuffs as riders to both types of Channeling (Negative Energy to use against the llving and Positive Energy to use against Undead and weird living creatures having Negative Energy Affinity). A deity can set a default Variant Channeling (or lack thereof) and a default Channeling shape, and then additional types of Variant Channeling (or the non-Variant type if you didn't get it by default) can be added by Curing or Infliction Domain Powers above 1st level (including through use of the Extra Domain Power feat, if you need to cram in other Domain Powers near a certain level; this feat is also of use if you need to rush multiple 1st level Domain Powers including but not limited to Channeling at 1st level rather than waiting for later levels to come back to them; a Human starting 1st level Cleric at 1st character level can potentially get all 3 1st level Domain Powers online at 1st level, even including Channel Energy of both polarities if serving a deity that offers this). Optionally, a Mystic archetype of Cleric could trade 2 Domains for 1 (more full-fledged) Mystery/Spirit.

Warpriest: Remix of the existing Warpriest and Inquisitor, combining the best of both chassis, being d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6/9 spellcasting (default prepared, but optionally spontaneous chosen by archetype). Gets the option for Curing and/or Infliction Blessings, which are basically the Blessing versions of the Curing and Infliction Domains detailed above for Cleric. Don't want to get dragged into suboptimal secondary healbot or Undead-master duty? Don't pic those Blessings.

Inquisitor: Remixed Inquisitor becomes a prestige class that preferentially builds from Warpriest or Cleric, and adds the parts of the existing Inquisitor base class chassis that did not get incorporated into the remixed Warpriest; will be d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, full progression of 6/9 spellcasting or 2/3 progression of 9/9 spellcasting. Inquisitions become mini-Domains (including a few additional spells on the list per level, unlike existing Inquisitions). The reason for changing Inquisitor to a prestige class is not anything wrong with the existing Inquisitor chassis (which seems to be really good) but conceptual: What religion in their right mind is going to accept some random worshipper who hasn't proven their loyalty or capability yet to become a behind-the-scenes agent who can go above the normal church laws?

Holy Warrior: Prestige Paladin/Antipaladin/Chevalier/Hellknight/Liberator remix that fills the d10 HD, 1/1 BAB, 4/9 spellcasting (starting at 1st level of the prestige class, but replaceable by archetype). This fills the niche currently occupied by the existing Paladin/Antipaladin base classes and the (common) Hellknight and (basically in name only) the Divine Scion, Holy Vindicator, Chevalier, and Liberator prestige classes. Builds preferentially from non-spellcasting martial base classes that offer a feature like Challenge (Cavalier/Samurai/possible future archetypes of Barbarian and/or Fighter), which gets upgraded to Smite by the prestige class. Again, the reason for changing these to prestige classes is not anything wrong with the Paladin/Antipaladin chassis, but conceptual: What religion in their right mind is going to accept some random worshipper who hasn't proven their loyalty or capability yet to become a Holy Warrior who is trusted to be a paragon of the faith? Note: Requires introduction of prestige class archetypes.

Oracle: Chassis remains similar to existing chassis, although some Core Divine spells are moved to Mysteries, again with duplications potentially enabling specialist benefits.

Shaman: Chassis remains similar to existing chassis, although some Core Divine spells are moved to Spirits, again with duplications potentially enabling specialist benefits.


There are several major issues/obstacles regarding any significant overhaul of the cleric class:

Paizo bizarre reluctance to do a D6 divine class

This is the biggy as it forces any tweaks to be centred around archetypes, which as can be seen are largely uninspiring. The basic cleric template being poorly designed has a knock on effect with archetypes.

Warpriest and Inquisitor have made martial Cleric far less relevant (and rightly so!)

This links into the 1st point - the overwhelming emphasis currently should be making the cleric more "caster". And in fact I always thought too much focus was put on the martial aspect for Clerics anyway. A Cleric should have a very basic selection of weapons and no shield proficiency.

The overall terribleness of channeling

This is another huge elephant in the room. A major class ability that just does not work. Paizo keep on trying to sort it with feats and options.... BUT IT JUST DOES NOT WORK. It either needs removing or Clerics need to be given free channeling feats to make it worthwhile. As soon as I get access to 3rd/4th level spells why would I ever waste action economy by channeling? I probably wouldnt bother even if it was a swift action! Another option would be granting it as a benefit in certain domains only - due to the fact it scales so poorly it wouldnt be OP given out as a domain power.

3.5 at least recognised the problem with turning undead (which at least did provide some function at all levels) - DMM was (and is) an excellent idea. The ability to use channel dice to power spellcasting killing several birds with 1 stone.


Well, I tried to combine the Cleric and Oracle here which I think addresses some of what you mentioned, but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for.

I've also suggested combining the Cleric and Druid. For this, I think the Druid would be a variant of Cleric rather than its own class. This would expand the Cleric spell list (by including the Druid's).

Of course, some combination of Cleric, Druid, and Oracle might be in order too...


Indagare wrote:

Well, I tried to combine the Cleric and Oracle here which I think addresses some of what you mentioned, but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for.

I've also suggested combining the Cleric and Druid. For this, I think the Druid would be a variant of Cleric rather than its own class. This would expand the Cleric spell list (by including the Druid's).

Of course, some combination of Cleric, Druid, and Oracle might be in order too...

I'm not a big fan of hybrid classes full stop.... let alone ones that are so closely related as cleric/oracle/druid.

IMO hybrid classes cause more problems than they solve.


Channeling useless? What is happening in your games? Every game I'm in, the party lives and dies by Channel Energy. Since other low-level healing is one person per round.


GreenDragon1133 wrote:
Channeling useless? What is happening in your games? Every game I'm in, the party lives and dies by Channel Energy. Since other low-level healing is one person per round.

Wands of CLW make it largely redundant....


some minor houserules on cleric

- casting spell on characters of same alignment (on good/evil axis) should gain a +1 lv of effect
- casting spell on followers of same deity should gain a +1 lv
- casting spell on opposite alignment (on good/evil axis) should gain a -1 lv of effect
- casting spell on followers of deity with opposite alignment (on good/evil axis) should gain a -1 lv of effect
all bonus stack

- free conversion of domain spell (as cure/inflict spell)

Wisdom bonus spell's should be usable only on domain spell

BHH


Silver Surfer wrote:
GreenDragon1133 wrote:
Channeling useless? What is happening in your games? Every game I'm in, the party lives and dies by Channel Energy. Since other low-level healing is one person per round.
Wands of CLW make it largely redundant....

The party just took a fireball, or AOE spell to the face, The party is down on health.

1 Good channel, and good positioning can do more than a CLW wand.


Fernn wrote:


The party just took a fireball, or AOE spell to the face, The party is down on health.

1 Good channel, and good positioning can do more than a CLW wand.

Problems with this perspective:

1) It presumes the cleric channels positive energy

2) It forces the cleric to invest in CHA and channel feats

3) The cleric might not want to make or be a healbot

4) Channeling scales very poorly - a 10th level cleric will be channeling for on average 15 HP.... poor output and use of action economy. If the cleric chooses variant channeling then at 10th he will heal 8 hp.... barely even worth getting out of bed for!

Unless you want to be a healbot, channeling is a waste of action economy, feats and ability points as well as making archetype design awkward....


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I honestly feel like there's room to argue for an overhaul to Diety as a concept. Right now, with a few divine class exceptions and people with certain feats, a character has no benefit for worshiping anything. I feel like assigning each diety a list of rules, benefits for following rules, and penalties for not following these rules, would be a neat trick. If you don't want the rules, you don't get the benefits or the penalties if you have no specific diety. You could even worship multiple dieties, gaining more benefits but with more rules to follow and a chance of conflict between rules that can make some situations a choice between which all powerful being to tick off.

Divine classes would then provide a stronger version of these benefits based on level, such that a fighter worshiping Pharasma might gain a +2 to hit against undead or those commanding them but a paladin gains the +2 and treats their attacks as disruptive, then holy, then it becomes a +4 to hit, then it adds a fear effect on hit... Your choice of diety now matters for any class, and matters a lot for classes which draw power from divine sources. The classes themselves need quite a bit of change anyways, at least the Paladin and the Cleric both do.

If nothing else, change domain spells to a very specific and scaling set of abilities and bonuses based on the diety. There's no reason a god would grant just spells, why would they just suddenly stop helping because they'd already been asked 3 times that day? Constant situational buffs that help a cleric to fulfill that dieties will make more sense to me.


Dotting.


Wow, this thread has gotten a lot of response!

Trying to respond to some of these points somewhat as they come up:

Drop Domains, worship gods!
Mentioned by Ciaran & Shiroi, I think the idea of really rebuilding gods with mechanics and features to support their clerics is a pretty fantastic idea, however I personally feel like it's unworkable for several reasons.

Ultimately, I think the problem with this boils to do completely building a unique set of class features and boons for every god is a HUGE amount of effort, and is extremely difficult to balance. Actually, this is where I started with my unchained cleric, but quickly got totally overwhelmed. Working from a campaign setting of a friend's and mine, which has only 9 major gods, it was enormously difficult to find a good mechanical and thematic balance, as well as come up with interesting spell lists, class features, etc for more than a couple of gods. Then another friend said that was stupid, he liked Golarion and didn't want to play with our gods. Well damn, if I want to do Golarion too, that's ~14 major dieties, plus 40 more minor ones - and what happens if paizo adds one, or the GM wants to build a demigod?

This is the reason domains exist in the first place in my opinion, to operationalize gods. You switch from Golarion to Greyhawk? It'd be easy to figure out how Kord works even if he wasn't already built.

Shiroi wrote:
I feel like assigning each diety a list of rules, benefits for following rules, and penalties for not following these rules, would be a neat trick... Divine classes would then provide a stronger version of these benefits... Your choice of diety now matters for any class

W/r/t to this point, this is the whole idea of the deific obedience feats and features, and the evangelist et al. prestige classes. I do think those subsystems could stand a rework, but I don't think it's a good reason to throw out an entire system of classes and spellcasting. I don't think it's *that* broken =P

The cleric should be a proper caster/priest, dammit
There is a huge sentiment for improving the cleric's spellcasting and taking out a lot of its martial abilities - I think literally every cleric reworking I've seen goes this route, and though the battle cleric has it's fans (including me!), the main question is not 'do or do not', but to what degree? A *lot* of people strongly feel the cleric should be a d6, no armor no Fight class (Silver Surfer, UnArcaneElection, dozens of people on this forum and in previous cleric variant threads) but I personally disagree with this dramatically for a few reasons:

- The Cleric is NOT a wizard. Divine casting is not Arcane casting. As we have been discussing in this thread, the cleric list is good for 2.5 things: Buffs, debuffs, and healing. Even if we dramatically upgrade the cleric's domain utility that will still only expand their versatility in one dimension (by necessity domains/gods should give focused gifts, or what's the point) - by contrast wizards can do ANYTHING. That's the whole point of arcane casting! Phenomenal COSMIC POWER... itty bitty HP pool. Taking away the cleric's HP, AC, saves, and BAB leaves you with a really shitty wizard.

- As a corollary to that - d20 does not provide enough functionality or awesomeness for a dedicated support caster. I don't know if their *can't* be a priest class - I've seen some decent dedicated divine casters/classes like that, though nothing that blew me away - but I think it is not well supported with the mechanics of the game.

I agree the cleric should be toned down, but I don't think this needs to be a really dramatic step. As Silver Surfer pointed out, the expansion of Warpriest, Inquisitor, Paladin, potentially even classes like the cavalier (or maybe even the evangelist/sentinel/exalted!) fill a lot of that play space.

Here's what I'm thinking on that front: Clerics get light armor, shields, and simple weapons; many but not all of the battle cleric spells become domain spells for Strength/War/Protection/etc.

At the same time, you give clerics something like revelations, which include the ability to invest in different playstyles - clerics of warlike deities can take a Talent that gives medium armor and all martial weapons. You can still pretty easily become significant combat powerhouses, but it is both less overwhelming, AND it requires investment.

I think you should keep favored weapons (they are cool, they are handy) - I am inclined to even expand them to a small set of weapons (say 2-4). First off, a couple of weapon profs isn't a huge deal, but it is nice to have, and this, along with other features, could lead to some interesting, more mixed clerics - what about a skirmisher cleric of a travel god with light armor and a glaive, who can make significant contributions without being a juggernaut/frontliner?

I've already written an essay so I think I need to stop - UnArcaneElection - you have a TON to say, and I'll try to really go through it and reply - what I've got to start is that I 100% agree about removing cure/inflict from the core dynamic and a lot of the related ideas you propose. I think this is part and parcel of recentering and expanding the impact of domains.

Rather than removing channel energy, what I am looking to do is rebuild it from the ground up, with an eye toward a more functional version of Variant channeling - ideally every domain would offer a custom/mostly custom channel that is significant and tactically relevant. Then cure/inflict just becomes a domain/god thing. (Silver Surfer - this goes with what you said about channeling being lame also. I love the *idea* of it as a class feature, but it's so non-functional).

Keep it up with the interesting suggestions/discussion! Next time I will try to post about the chassis I'm working on for the unchained Cleric


^If Wizards could really do anything, we wouldn't need Clerics at all. Wizards aren't very good healers and are sometimes good but iffy bad status removers -- if your bad status was caused by something that Dispel Magic (or its Greater version) or Break Enchantment can remove, great, but if not, you are in trouble without a more general bad status remover, unless the Wizard can happen to shoehorn it in through summoning (not guaranteed, and not guaranteed to work even if they can summon the right thing).

Granted, if you want a dd6, 1/2 BAB Cleric, you might need to add some more world-bending spells to the Cleric spell list, but do it (or at least most of it) in the Domains/Blessings/Inquisitions/Mysteries/Spirits, not in the Core Divine list.

Somebody above mentioned combining Cleric with Druid (which I forgot to address in my previous post -- dain bramage!) -- actually, with the expansion of Domains into mini-Mysteries, this might work.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Fernn wrote:


The party just took a fireball, or AOE spell to the face, The party is down on health.

1 Good channel, and good positioning can do more than a CLW wand.

Problems with this perspective:

1) It presumes the cleric channels positive energy

2) It forces the cleric to invest in CHA and channel feats

3) The cleric might not want to make or be a healbot

4) Channeling scales very poorly - a 10th level cleric will be channeling for on average 15 HP.... poor output and use of action economy. If the cleric chooses variant channeling then at 10th he will heal 8 hp.... barely even worth getting out of bed for!

Unless you want to be a healbot, channeling is a waste of action economy, feats and ability points as well as making archetype design awkward....

I could debate this but:

1) It would derail this thread
2) We clearly come from different schools of gaming. Nothing I say will change your mind, and nothing you say is likely to change mine.
So I will agree to disagree and ask you to do likewise.

Moving on to the topic at hand:
Why not look at the Domains, Spells and Channel through the lens of Sorcerer Bloodlines and Wizard Schools?

Each Cleric chooses 1-2 Domains based on Deity. If 2 they need to be about half as powerful as the Arcane counterparts. Domains should be very limited in number but with a large number of Subdomains (with additionals in later expansions. Such as a Lawful Domain having subdomains for LG, LN, LE, and various outsiders associated with Law (such as Devils).

Spells: All Clerics have access to a small number of Universal Spells per level, and then a few more (say three) per Domain. The Healing Spells are part of the Universal list. Either Clerics can not cast from other Domain lists at all, or they have limitations like the Wizard does for Opposition Schools.

Domain Powers: These are based on Subdomain and thus vary widely for different clerics. Ideally there should be about 6 total (three per Domain), or two each with one upgrading at a later level.

Channel Energy: CHA+3/Day, 30' Radius, 1D6/2 Levels. All Clerics can use this to heal allies (per Positive Energy with Selective Channel). However, alternate uses are available based on Domains.
Such as:

Alignment Domains: Confer Status Effects on allies or enemies with increasing bonus/penalty per die of Channel.

Elemental Domains: Energy Burst (indiscriminate attack) with the Channel's dice in damage, 30' radius.

Protection: Allies gain DR 3/die for one round - negated by ?

Charm: Functions like Charm Person/Monster - the dice determine maximum number of targets in some manner.

Healing: Treated as an Empowered Channel (x1.5 effect).

Death: Does damage to all living targets and heals undead - or for Good/Neutral Clerics of Death, damages Undead, but does nothing to the living.

Finally - Capstone: At 20th Level the Cleric becomes a chosen servant of their Deity. They are treated as a Native Outsider and gain Resistances appropriate to their god's Outsider followers. i.e. a Cleric of Asmodeus would gain Devil Resistances.


I've always felt that the core cleric should be a pure caster - granted if Paizo insist on making the class a D8 3/4 BAB then that complicates things, but at it heart the Cleric should IMO be the divine wizard.

And actually this makes perfect thematic and RP sense.... the robed Holy man who travels around preaching divinity and bringing the wrath of God upon down on his enemies is an absolutely classic iconic image.

Reality indicates that Paizo are (sadly) extremely unlikely to instigate any massive overhaul of the class.... being reluctant to even create a D6 divine class.

This leaves us with further D8 archetypes or in an Unchained Cleric, a modification of the existing class.

For the more martially inclined, there are Warpriests and Inquisitors (ironically 2 largely well designed classes) and if you really wanted to be a martial cleric then you could always spend feats (IMO light armour and no shield would be a good starting point for the base cleric).


I tend to agree with Silver Surfer. It always bugged me that the divine full-casters where 3/4BAB, d8 HD classes, when even the (3.5) warmage was only 1/2BAB, d6 HD.

Moreover, when we look at history and fantasy, most of the clergymen are of the robe-wearing kind, not the scale armor type.
Sure, the usual christian monk was probably more active than the typical wizard, working in the fields whenever they aren't praying. But in that case, the commoner too should have better stats.

Originally, the cleric was probably created to represent the idea of a military religious order, like the Order of Hospitallers.
The thing is that nowadays, the Warpriest and the Paladin (even the Inquisitor) match this idea better than the cleric, while we are still missing a class for the more classical robe-wearing missionary.

I accept the exception of the druid, since contrary to the cleric, he is supposed to live in the wilderness, but I believe that he should probably be a 6-level caster.

Dark Archive

I would have preferred if Clerics and Druids (and every other spellcasting class, for that matter) had two choices at 1st level for their spell acquisition;

A) They cast spontaneously, like a Sorcerer, getting a smallish fixed list of spells (buffed in the case of the cleric by spontaneous casting and domain lists).

B) They prepare spells, and acquire them like a Wizard, automatically gaining 2 per level after 1st, along with whatever other 'prayers' or 'rites' they can learn from other casters of their type, scrolls, Domains, etc. (unlike Wizards, clerics will automatically learn any spell from their Domains, and any spell they can cast spontaneously, in addition to the 'free' two spells per level). Maybe they keep these spells in a holy canon or sacred text (for a 'prepared' Cleric or Paladin), or sheaf of ogham-rune-marked birchbark or hide scrolls (for a 'prepared' Druid or Ranger), or songbook or hymnal (for a 'prepared' Bard).

*Nobody* would get 'every spell on my class list, automagically.'

That's pretty much always been my pet peeve with the Cleric (and, to a lesser extent, other divine casters like the Druid, Paladin, Ranger, etc.), them getting every single spell on their spell list (and quite possibly new spells and options every single time a new book comes out). Not every priest in the real world knows every single rite and ritual and catechism of their faith. IMO, not every cleric (or druid) should automatically know every single prayer their god will answer.

Other than that, I wouldn't change much about the Cleric class. Maybe bump skill points to 4+Int mod, but I'd do the same for every class that has 2+Int mod, so that's not a cleric-specific thing either...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

What I've done in my home game is to restrict spells beyond Core according to domains. So Clerics still get the full "core assumption" spell list, but there's a chunk of spells that are deity- (well, domain-) related that makes the spell lists look a bit different (quite different if you happen to own all the splats).

Core spells: c. 290 that all clerics get
Rules hardbacks (not incl. OA): c. 230 specialised by domains
Others in my index (incl. some 3PP): c. 340 specialised by domains

It's not perfect by any means - I also would prefer much stronger themed abilities than the relatively small deltas provided by the domain abilities and will watch this thread with interest. But it's a start, and it's pretty easy to do (if a little dull to divide up the spells :-).

(I also do the same thing for druids, though based on themes not domains, for the same basic reasons - controlling the extraordinary number of spells known & diversity of "feel". Also for paladins, antipaladins & rangers.)


Elro the Onk wrote:

What I've done in my home game is to restrict spells beyond Core according to domains. So Clerics still get the full "core assumption" spell list, but there's a chunk of spells that are deity- (well, domain-) related that makes the spell lists look a bit different (quite different if you happen to own all the splats).

Core spells: c. 290 that all clerics get
Rules hardbacks (not incl. OA): c. 230 specialised by domains
Others in my index (incl. some 3PP): c. 340 specialised by domains

It's not perfect by any means - I also would prefer much stronger themed abilities than the relatively small deltas provided by the domain abilities and will watch this thread with interest. But it's a start, and it's pretty easy to do (if a little dull to divide up the spells :-).

(I also do the same thing for druids, though based on themes not domains, for the same basic reasons - controlling the extraordinary number of spells known & diversity of "feel". Also for paladins, antipaladins & rangers.)

So youve taken a class in desperate need of a boost and significantly weakened it?!?


Set wrote:

I would have preferred if Clerics and Druids (and every other spellcasting class, for that matter) had two choices at 1st level for their spell acquisition;

A) They cast spontaneously, like a Sorcerer, getting a smallish fixed list of spells (buffed in the case of the cleric by spontaneous casting and domain lists).

B) They prepare spells, and acquire them like a Wizard, automatically gaining 2 per level after 1st, along with whatever other 'prayers' or 'rites' they can learn from other casters of their type, scrolls, Domains, etc. (unlike Wizards, clerics will automatically learn any spell from their Domains, and any spell they can cast spontaneously, in addition to the 'free' two spells per level). Maybe they keep these spells in a holy canon or sacred text (for a 'prepared' Cleric or Paladin), or sheaf of ogham-rune-marked birchbark or hide scrolls (for a 'prepared' Druid or Ranger), or songbook or hymnal (for a 'prepared' Bard).

*Nobody* would get 'every spell on my class list, automagically.'

That's pretty much always been my pet peeve with the Cleric (and, to a lesser extent, other divine casters like the Druid, Paladin, Ranger, etc.), them getting every single spell on their spell list (and quite possibly new spells and options every single time a new book comes out). Not every priest in the real world knows every single rite and ritual and catechism of their faith. IMO, not every cleric (or druid) should automatically know every single prayer their god will answer.

Other than that, I wouldn't change much about the Cleric class. Maybe bump skill points to 4+Int mod, but I'd do the same for every class that has 2+Int mod, so that's not a cleric-specific thing either...

One of the big reasons why clerics knowing all their spells is not a big deal is that lots of the domains have spells on them that the cleric already gets!!!!


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Silver Surfer wrote:

I've always felt that the core cleric should be a pure caster - granted if Paizo insist on making the class a D8 3/4 BAB then that complicates things, but at it heart the Cleric should IMO be the divine wizard.

And actually this makes perfect thematic and RP sense.... the robed Holy man who travels around preaching divinity and bringing the wrath of God upon down on his enemies is an absolutely classic iconic image.

Reality indicates that Paizo are (sadly) extremely unlikely to instigate any massive overhaul of the class.... being reluctant to even create a D6 divine class.

This leaves us with further D8 archetypes or in an Unchained Cleric, a modification of the existing class.

For the more martially inclined, there are Warpriests and Inquisitors (ironically 2 largely well designed classes) and if you really wanted to be a martial cleric then you could always spend feats (IMO light armour and no shield would be a good starting point for the base cleric).

I agree with this. It's always seemed to me that we start out with a priest/fighter hybrid in the Cleric and things go from there. Now, there is an archetype for it, but I think that's sort of backwards. The Warpriest should be to the Cleric what the Magus is to the Wizard: a half martial type with more limited spell-casting.

If I were to argue for an arcane version of the Cleric: full caster (with a bonus spell from a chosen school of magic), 3/4BAB, d8 HD, proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields) [no arcane casting failure], I suspect most folks would protest and say that it's not a "classic" wizard (and likely that it's overpowered).

There's also the problem of the nature of divine magic vs arcane magic. Classically divine magic is bestowed upon a person while arcane magic forces results. The problem with the former is that this casting ability can be taken away at any time should the Cleric somehow offend the deity. The latter cannot usually be taken away even though it doesn't allow for healing (which I still find odd since if they can tap into the negative energy plane they ought to also be able to tap into the positive one). I think if there's a redo of the Cleric to a pure caster like the Wizard, there also going to need to be a serious rethink about what it would mean to be a Cleric and how their magic should be distinguished from what arcane users can do.


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An idea I had a while ago for the cleric, before I adopted the Spheres of Power system for my home game and the cleric in my group took up the Crusader archetype with a very definitive theme in relation to his deity (so he wasn't looking for flexibility), was to have a cleric's domain selection mirror the shaman's wandering spirit functionality.

Essentially, the cleric selected only one domain at 1st level from his deity's portfolio; this was his "devoted domain," the domain that defined his core beliefs and could not be changed. At 4th level, once per day when he prepared spells, he could choose a second domain from his deity's portfolio, gaining the 1st-level ability and adding the domain spells to his list; this second domain is his "pledged domain," and represents the clerics pledge to his deity's cause for that day or current circumstances. This pledged domain could be changed each day, giving the cleric a bit of flexibility for current circumstances. At 12th level, the cleric gained the first AND second abilities of his pledged domain.

The goal was to give the cleric a little more flexibility in his customization, so everything wasn't just decided at 1st level and then never changed, and to spread out his domain powers so the cleric could look forward to new things as they leveled, other than just new spells (so domain powers at 1st, 4th, 6th or 8th, and 12th).

My other thought was to make domains more like oracle mysteries, but then you might as well just play an oracle, who honestly fit the feel and theme of "cleric" better than clerics do.

It might also be worth taking a look at the Saint base class, which actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community, for inspiration for other cleric changes.


Arnakalar wrote:

Drop Domains, worship gods!

Mentioned by Ciaran & Shiroi, I think the idea of really rebuilding gods with mechanics and features to support their clerics is a pretty fantastic idea, however I personally feel like it's unworkable for several reasons.

Ultimately, I think the problem with this boils to do completely building a unique set of class features and boons for every god is a HUGE amount of effort, and is extremely difficult to balance. Actually, this is where I started with my unchained cleric, but quickly got totally overwhelmed. Working from a campaign setting of a friend's and mine, which has only 9 major gods, it was enormously difficult to find a good mechanical and thematic balance, as well as come up with interesting spell lists, class features, etc for more than a couple of gods. Then another friend said that was stupid, he liked Golarion and didn't want to play with our gods. Well damn, if I want to do Golarion too, that's ~14 major dieties, plus 40 more minor ones - and what happens if paizo adds one, or the GM wants to build a demigod?

It would be a big undertaking, and it's also a reason to stick with domains. Domains are well established in the rules and people are familiar with them. In my cleric variant, a deity's 4-5 domains collectively make up a pool of domain spells. The cleric isn't restricted to two domains and variety improved (somewhat). No, it is still not a perfect system, but it is a rework of what already exists and there are probably other things you would prefer to work on. If you are still unhappy with that, instead of writing out each deity's spells and powers, revamp each of the domains to be more user friendly. Some of the existing ones are just sad.


On Pure Caster Cleric/Priest
Silver/Aralicia/Etc - this point has been brought up in half the comments in the thread, but I honestly don't see a lot of new information or points being made. I think we are approaching zombie horse territory.

I'd love to see a response to my points about why the full caster cleric is not promising, though. For everyone suggesting the cleric should be a robed priest-guy: If Cleric should be the 'Divine Wizard', how do you solve the 'boring wizard' problem? I assert cleric needs something different and more than just casting, because by definition divine spells are narrowing and more restricted than arcane spells.

On the point of "real life priests" - I cannot emphasize how irrelevant this is to me. Real life priests don't live in a world with magic, with hostile gods and cultists, undead, whatever. Real life bards/minstrels aren't elegant blends of fighters, rogues, and magicians. They're entertainers.

Additionally, we're talking about 'adventuring' classes - your friendly neighborhood friar can easily be a cloistered cleric or Acolyte.

I agree wholeheartedly that the base cleric has too much Fighter in them as I've said already, and it's a point to which everyone is agreeing - but 'medium bab' or a martial weapon are not fighter exclusive features. You don't need to completely annihilate the cleric chassis in order to create interesting options.

Elro the Onk wrote:

What I've done in my home game is to restrict spells beyond Core according to domains. So Clerics still get the full "core assumption" spell list, but there's a chunk of spells that are deity- (well, domain-) related...

Core spells: c. 290 that all clerics get
Rules hardbacks (not incl. OA): c. 230 specialised by domains
Others in my index (incl. some 3PP): c. 340 specialised by domains

This might be a bit more extreme than I would go. More than that, automatically making all splat spells 'non-core' is rough, but it simplify the book keeping, and conversely there are CRB spells I'd probably want to break out. Still, this is definitely in line with one of the changes I would try to make. If you have that list anywhere online I would love to see it!

Sellsword2587 wrote:
Essentially, the cleric selected only one domain at 1st level from his deity's portfolio; this was his "devoted domain,"... 4th level, once per day when he prepared spells, he could choose a second domain... his "pledged domain,"

I am doing the same thing, but these names are 1000x better than anything I came up with. Do you mind if I borrow this terminology?

Sellsword2587 wrote:
My other thought was to make domains more like oracle mysteries, but then you might as well just play an oracle, who honestly fit the feel and theme of "cleric" better than clerics do.

I think there is a middle ground - something a bit like Shaman spirits again, and the earlier comment on 'mini-mysteries'. This is how I'm approaching talents - with a list of 'universal' talents and a list of deity/domain specific talents.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Arnakalar wrote:
...
It would be a big undertaking, and it's also a reason to stick with domains. Domains are well established in the rules and people are familiar with them. In my cleric variant, a deity's 4-5 domains collectively make up a pool of domain spells. The cleric isn't restricted to two domains and variety improved (somewhat). No, it is still not a perfect system, but it is a rework of what already exists and there are probably other things you would prefer to work on. If you are still unhappy with that, instead of writing out each deity's spells and powers, revamp each of the domains to be more user friendly. Some of the existing ones are just sad.

I agree with all of this.

Liberty's Edge

Sellsword2587 wrote:


It might also be worth taking a look at the Saint base class, which actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community, for inspiration for other cleric changes.

As an aside ... I'm curious what you mean by "actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community". To my knowledge, no 3rd part content has ever been "certified by Paizo" - that's just not something Paizo does.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Silver Surfer wrote:
So youve taken a class in desperate need of a boost and significantly weakened it?!?

Weakened? Not significantly. Core spells are all there & that's the power base of the class.

In any case, I'm of the opinion that cleric's in need of a flavour boost, not a power boost. It's hardly in (original) rogue territory. You're welcome to your own opinion, of course.

Arnakalar wrote:
This might be a bit more extreme than I would go. More than that, automatically making all splat spells 'non-core' is rough, but it simplify the book keeping, and conversely there are CRB spells I'd probably want to break out. Still, this is definitely in line with one of the changes I would try to make. If you have that list anywhere online I would love to see it!

Happy to share. I've cleaned it to just Cleric spells in the spirit of this thread and cut the data into a googledoc - you'll probably want to cut into your favourite spreadsheet program to use...

Link to googledoc


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would suggest looking at Sentinel and Exalted PrC from Inner Sea Gods for possible ideas for making Cleric more interesting and making God or Domain choice for important.

Also giving Clerics Divine Obedience as a bonus feat feels about right. I mean you are a cleric, the physical manifestation of Divine Power on the mortal plane, why aren't you praying the "right" way everyday? Creating a Divine Obedience is a lot less work than a custom spell list for every God. You can still keep the "clerics of XXXX gets access to this spell at Y level" or the "add this creature to SM spell list" stuff. It isn't necessary but can still add some flavor when you do it.


Arnakalar wrote:
Sellsword2587 wrote:
Essentially, the cleric selected only one domain at 1st level from his deity's portfolio; this was his "devoted domain,"... 4th level, once per day when he prepared spells, he could choose a second domain... his "pledged domain,"
I am doing the same thing, but these names are 1000x better than anything I came up with. Do you mind if I borrow this terminology?

Please, by all means.


Just some thoughts:

One of the main problems that I see with the cleric is that it's trying to shoehorn all sorts of practitioners of deities into one chassis. A cleric of the god of magic shouldn't have the same abilities as a cleric of the goddess of battle, but for the most part, other than ~4 relatively minor abilities they are going to have the same sort of things going on.

The best case would probably be one class per god with different powers based on the deities themselves, but that's a lot of work.

I could also see a system sort of like the playtest Vigilante or the summoner's eidolon. Pick a deity, or concepts, and that will restrict you to a number of talents you can select as you level up. Have them be level gated, and share them among deities. That way you get to select things to customize closer to your deity, without having to come up with 20 different classes. Of course this runs into the same problem the holy vigilante ran into, where not every cleric makes sense to be a full caster, so how do you handle that sort of thing?


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My recommendations are as follows:

1.) Leave BaB and HD alone as is.

2.) Create a "Positive energy" and a "Negative energy" spell list, each cleric gets one of these depending on alignment just like current channel energy.

3.) Expand domains so that they grant scaling selectable abilities similar to mysteries.

4.) Have each domain grant 3-4 spells at each level, these along with your positive or negative energy list are all a cleric could prepare.

5.) Rework channel energy to not fall off so much in efficiency/usefulness.

6.) Grant clerics a class feature similar to the wizards bonus feats for channel/cleric based feats, with domains adding extra choices but not granting extra feats.

7.) Possibly decouple channel from charisma and move to wisdom.


Marc Radle wrote:
Sellsword2587 wrote:


It might also be worth taking a look at the Saint base class, which actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community, for inspiration for other cleric changes.
As an aside ... I'm curious what you mean by "actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community". To my knowledge, no 3rd part content has ever been "certified by Paizo" - that's just not something Paizo does.

My apologies, I may have misspoke to a degree.

Dorn, the Iconic character for the 3rd Party class, The Saint, is the only iconic character featured on the Pathfinder Community site's list of iconic characters, which operates under Paizo's Community Use Policy, that is not a member of an official Pathfinder base class.

Now, when I first found the Saint base class, I thought I had read, but this is likely where I'm wrong, that either the Saint base class, or Dorn the Iconic Saint, was one of the winners of an RPG Superstar contest, or something similar. But looking back, I can't seem to find where I came across this information. So again, my apologies.


*PART I
Since you want counters on your specific points :

Arnakalar wrote:
The Cleric is NOT a wizard. Divine casting is not Arcane casting. As we have been discussing in this thread, the cleric list is good for 2.5 things: Buffs, debuffs, and healing.

Right now it is, but why should it ? Why shouldn't a cleric Nethys be good in divination ? Why shouldn't a cleric of shelyn be good in charm ? Similarly, why should a cleric of Rovagug good in healing ? If we want to reinforce the identity of the cleric as a servant of his god, it pass by reinforcing the impact of the domains on the spell list.

Arnakalar wrote:
Even if we dramatically upgrade the cleric's domain utility that will still only expand their versatility in one dimension (by necessity domains/gods should give focused gifts, or what's the point) - by contrast wizards can do ANYTHING. That's the whole point of arcane casting!

That is in my opinion a failing of the (generic) Wizard, in fact. A generic wizard shouldn't be good at everything. Right now, there is little advantage at specializing as a wizard, and it's a problem.

Arnakalar wrote:
- As a corollary to that - d20 does not provide enough functionality or awesomeness for a dedicated support caster. I don't know if their *can't* be a priest class - I've seen some decent dedicated divine casters/classes like that, though nothing that blew me away - but I think it is not well supported with the mechanics of the game.

When one of the more effective way to play a wizard is to play as a control/support caster, I can't really agree with the lack of functionality for a dedicated support caster.

Arnakalar wrote:
For everyone suggesting the cleric should be a robed priest-guy: If Cleric should be the 'Divine Wizard', how do you solve the 'boring wizard' problem?

I don't really see what makes a wizard boring (except non-specialization. If so, see above).

Arnakalar wrote:
I assert cleric needs something different and more than just casting, because by definition divine spells are narrowing and more restricted than arcane spells.

I assert that the divine spell lists shouldn't be more narrow than arcane spell list. In the opposite, I assert that both arcane and divine should be narrow and focused on the specialty of the character (based on chosen Domain/School/Bloodline/etc), while allowing limited access in the other areas of magic.

Arnakalar wrote:
Additionally, we're talking about 'adventuring' classes - your friendly neighborhood friar can easily be a cloistered cleric or Acolyte.

Point 1. A wandering missionary can easily be an adventurer, while not necessarily being an armored wonder.

Point 2. If a cloistered cleric shouldn't be an adventurer (as you imply), why should a wizard be ? After all the archetypal wizard is the booksmart researcher, who could as well commission adventurer rather than go by himself on the field.
Refuting the validity of a NO-BAB D6 full-caster on this argument would refute the validity of the wizard and sorcerer classes.

PART II
The kind of thing I would personally propose as an overhaul for the cleric :

  • The Cleric has low BAB and d6 HD. He starts with proficiency with simple weapon, deity weapon, light armors and shields.
  • The Cleric has a really limited basic spell list (mostly faith-based spell : prayer, consecration, etc).
  • The Cleric gain a Faith Pool (or whatever you want to name it). This pool is used for the Channel Faith ability and (X/day) Domain powers.
  • The Cleric replace the Channel Energy ability by a Channel Faith ability. The basics are the same, but the effect depends of the chosen domains.
  • The Cleric choose at level 1 one Major domain and two minor domain. During his progression, he gain two more minor domain, and can upgrade one of his minor domain in a major domain (for a total of 2 Major and 3 minor domains). If the cleric worship a god, one of his chosen domain can be a domain not granted by his god, representing a personnal deviantion in doctrine.
    Each Domain Grant :
      - A passive ability. For Warlike domains, it could be armor/weapon proficiencies or increased health pool.
      - A list of spells (2-3 per spell level). For domains taken has minor domain, only spell levels up to 1/2 CL are available (minimum 1).
      - A Channel Faith effect. For domains taken has major domains, the power of this effect is increased/the cleric has special options.
      - A list of available Domain Powers. Some are use the Faith pool, other not. Abilities like the Warpriest's sacred weapon may find its way there.
  • Regularly during his progression, the character gain Domain Power that he can choose within the available power of his domains. Starting at level 10(?), he can select a major power from his major domains instead.


  • What Spheres of Power does for clerics, and I understand this doesn't relate as well to base Pathfinder spell lists/spells, to determine their "spell list" is:

    - Good clerics get the Life sphere (healing) and Life talents for free as they level, and their Destruction sphere (damaging spell) is only half as effective against non-evil creatures; Evil clerics get the Death sphere (necromancy/negative energy) and Death talents for free as they level, and their Destruction sphere (damaging spell) is only half as effective against non-good creatures; Neutral clerics choose one or the other, as normal.

    - Your chosen domains determine the rest of your inherent "spell list", granting you a free Sphere (base spells/effects) and Talents (advanced spells/effects) as you level.

    - Otherwise, you gain generic Talents throughout normal progression. These talents can be spent to enhance the spheres you already have (based on your alignment and domains) or to gain new spheres (new spells, essentially).

    So in Pathfinder terms, a cleric's base spell list, according to the Spheres of Power model, should consist primarily of cure/inflict spells and domain spells.

    So, I'm in agreement that a cleric should have a list of "generic cleric spells," but then also believe that the majority of his spell list be determined by his domain spells.

    Liberty's Edge

    Sellsword2587 wrote:
    Marc Radle wrote:
    Sellsword2587 wrote:


    It might also be worth taking a look at the Saint base class, which actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community, for inspiration for other cleric changes.
    As an aside ... I'm curious what you mean by "actually got certified by Paizo to be part of the Pathfinder Community". To my knowledge, no 3rd part content has ever been "certified by Paizo" - that's just not something Paizo does.

    My apologies, I may have misspoke to a degree.

    Dorn, the Iconic character for the 3rd Party class, The Saint, is the only iconic character featured on the Pathfinder Community site's list of iconic characters, which operates under Paizo's Community Use Policy, that is not a member of an official Pathfinder base class.

    Now, when I first found the Saint base class, I thought I had read, but this is likely where I'm wrong, that either the Saint base class, or Dorn the Iconic Saint, was one of the winners of an RPG Superstar contest, or something similar. But looking back, I can't seem to find where I came across this information. So again, my apologies.

    Ah, got it. Keep in mind that that site is in no way connected to Paizo or Pathfinder Society and is in no way official. It is just a site created using the Community Use guidelines. In fact, it looks like that site is somehow connected with d20pfsrd.com, which is definitely not directly affiliated with Paizo.

    That's not to say anything negative about those sites, but just make sure you understand that they are not connected with, nor in any way sanctioned by Paizo (beyond the fact that they exist due to the Community Use rules)


    This is too unchained even for unchained, but I would rather the cleric was centered on curses/blessings rather than channel energy. Maybe something along the lines of you get so many conditions/enhancements per day that you can curse or bless with, obviously increasing by level, and each curse or blessing requiring at least one condition or enhancement (and a limit per level on how many conditions/enhancements per curse/blessing). Some conditions/enhancements would be domain specific (and possibly feat specific, i.e., worshiper of X lets you add Y enhancement to your blessing).

    You could throw healing stuff into the blessing (the blessing of healing), and you could reduce the cleric's martial aspect since they could just bless their weapons and armor up. You could even work in planar ally with it--a condition might be something like "wraith of an angry demon" that causes a demon (type by cleric level) to appear and attack the cursed.

    It would give the cleric a little more fire and brimstone Old Testament type flavor.


    I think we're losing sight of the key problem.....

    What changes are in all likelihood feasible?

    1) Paizo do release a D6 divine class

    2) Paizo stick with only doing D8 archetypes

    3) Paizo do a Cleric-Unchanined

    You have to look at these and figure out what is most likely and then go on from there..... trying to come up with solutions for all 3 will take forever!!

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Is time a scarce resource?

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