Complete Cleric Overhaul Project / AKA 'Unchained Cleric'


Homebrew and House Rules

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Let's see if I can draw something up to show what I mean. Since I feel "pure caster" and "leader of faith" are kind of the biggest wants ITT, I'll start there.


Cleric (Overhaul)

Alignment: One step from deity

Hit Die: d6

BAB: 1/2 progression

Good Saving Throws: Wisdom

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A cleric is proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.

Aura

Divine Mission: A cleric serves as a vessel of the church and their deity. At 1st level, a cleric must choose their divine mission. Once a cleric selects a mission, it cannot be changed.

Spells

Domains

Spontaneous Casting: In addition to their mission spontaneous casting, a cleric may spontaneously cast any spell with "cure" or "inflict" in its name.

Bonus Languages

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Scholar

Mission Bonus: A cleric whose divine mission is the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom gains 4 additional skill ranks per level, and gains all knowledge skills as class skills.

Lore (Ex): This ability is identical to a bard's Bardic Knowledge ability using cleric levels as bard levels.

Domains: A scholar gains 2 domains and the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain even if their deity does not normally grant the Knowledge domain. With GM approval they may choose a Knowledge sub-domain as their bonus domain. Maybe stagger domains for less "dead levels"?

Spontaneous Casting: A scholar may cast their knowledge domain spells spontaneously.

Metamagic/crafting bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th

No combat, but lots of skills points and spellcasting options.

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Evangelist

Mission Bonus: A cleric whose divine mission is gathering others to their flock and promoting their deity gains 3/4 BAB and proficiency with medium armor, shields (but not tower shields), and the favored weapon of their deity. An evangelist adds Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Perform to their list of class skills. An evangelist gains Toughness as a bonus feat, and may choose Toughness a second time (its effects stack).

Reference for abilities

Public Speaker

Sermonic Performance

Domains: A Evangelist gains 1 domain from their deity.

Spontaneous Casting

To add more variance to the class deeper in, I would then take a queue from the PrC with the same name.

Gift of Tongues - 2 and 12

Multitude of Talents - 6

Spiritual Form - 16? Doesn't seem to fit a lot, but glowing divine leader makes some sense.

Some other fluff abilities would be great to:

Shelter the Meek: At 4th level, an evangelist may provide free room and board for their party at locations venerating their deity or a deity friendly to theirs.

Sign from Above: At 10th level, an evangelist is guided by the hand of their deity. They can always find fresh food and water, and cannot be lost in any environment so long as they can still communicate with their deity through prayer.

Walker of worlds: At 18th level, adds plane shift and interplanetary teleport to their spell list. If their domain grants one of more of these spells they may choose any other teleport spell instead.

More combat ability, bunches of buffs, some more travelling priest type fluff abilities. Languages, bard abilities, enchantments, etc.

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So a warrior cleric would get heavy armor & more of a combat focus with Turn/Destroy undead in the classic sense. A healer would become the best of battlefield healing so they can survive and heal in combat quickly. A beacon would get channel energy ad the d6 pools and be able to use something like variant channeling to get cool effects.

Shadow Lodge

Arnakalar wrote:

It's come up before, and will come up again, that the cleric could use some revision. Hell, it's come up now.

I've been working on my own cleric rewrite for quite a while, but I'm curious - what do you think about the cleric? Does it work? What do you like, what don't you like? How would you change the cleric, or how do you think it should be changed?

Things I like

- The Theme. Clerics are a cool idea - gods and domains add a lot of instant flavor and a strong sense of character.

- The cleric is a badass. Not every cleric needs to be smashing someone in the face with a hammer, but even the most retiring cleric is still *tough*.

- Subtlety/mix of abilities - I'm not sure I've put this well, but in any role they fill, clerics are usually fulfilling that role in an interesting way. Battle Clerics/C-zilla aren't just melee monsters; they're blending spells into their combat abilities. Caster clerics aren't just wizards with a holy symbol.

Things I don't like

Little diversity, little customization.

Ultimately almost all my complaints boil down to every cleric being almost exactly the same. While there is some variation in the focus of a character (a battle cleric with strong melee, a debuffing lord of the dead), these characters are basically built on the same chassis. Domains and gods have fairly minimal impact on the structure of the character, and beyond that, there's nothing to decide.

(As a corollary to that, every ability/choice you make as a cleric is decided at level one. What's my god? What domains? Positive or negative energy (if not decided by my god).)

Bland spell list - Cleric spells are *alright*, but certainly nothing to write home about. Most clerics are taking the same spells every time, unless they know they need some situational buff/restoration.

I also think the cleric suffers somewhat from pigeonholing - in 1st & 2nd ed, a cleric was really 1 thing. A beefy dude in plate armor...

The biggest issue I've found with rebalancing the cleric has been that it's kind of all over the place. They can get into melee like a fighter, they can cast spells like wizards and sorcs, they can heal others like no other unique class can. That's a lot of shoes to fill and makes balancing it difficult as you can either improve all these aspects and further increase their power compared to other classes or you focus on specific options to let players go deeper but remove some of those options that people really enjoyed. This also gets exacerbated when you start thinking about the faith options you have as certain builds though mechanically valid feel really off with some faiths like a battle cleric to Korada or merciful healer to Asmodeus. You can build them, and they can be really good, but they can feel like they go against the spirit of the faith they want to explore.

For me, what I've found to be the best way to tweak the cleric is to remove the cleric altogether and use the warpriest, oracle, inquisitor, and 3rd party priest class to really fill the gap. Each of these classes really focuses on the various things someone wants to do in that hand of the church role and because of that can get richer mechanics and more easily balanced because of it.

All that said one of the easiest changes I roll for clerics is making the channel energy type a cleric offers is something they decide when they pray each morning rather than being locked by your god. This helps disassociate the healing/harming magic from good or evil dichotomy and lets players and NPCs follow more interesting faiths while doing builds they want like a healing priest of Zon-Kuthon who calls upon the, "Glorious Pain" to stitch your tendons or a Burning hand of Sarenrae who calls on her fiery passions to scorch away her foes.

Next I like adding new effects channel powers based on your domains, letting you call upon madness, strength, or evil in a way beyond your spells that matches your characters chosen study area of the faith.


The background skills rule should become SOP for games from now on. No more wheezing along with just Perception/Know-Religon +1 other for humans.


The Cleric's martial role is what Warpriest is for (although Inquisitor gives Warpriest a run for its money) -- right now, the Cleric tends to step on the Warpriest's martial toes while doing a better job as a spellcaster.


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In essence there are several possible approaches to the Cleric problem

Stick with D8 archetypes

PRO - Less hassle for Paizo - no issues with existing set-up.

CON - As can be seen from the majority of existing archetypes they are nothing to get excited about. If you're trying to go for a more pure caster route (or even just something more interesting), the D8, 3/4 BAB, channeling is just a massive hindrance to the objective. The Ecclesitheurge could have been half decent but just wasnt thought through properly.

The “lazy but effective” D6 option

This basically just involves taking the D6 ½ BAB template of the wizard and modifying it for a divine:

1) 3 domains and extra domain slot - 1 can be prepared, other 2 can be used in slots
2) Light armour only
3) 4 skill points
4) Scribe scroll at 1st + 3 bonus feats
5) Keep channelling as is but based on WIS

PRO - Is quick and easy to design and would be effective as a “divine wizard”.

CON - Is actually still pretty dull. Granted it has more flavour than a standard cleric but as a completely new class it is very limited in terms of what can be done with it. If Paizo design a new class they want something that has “mileage”.

The “bare bones” D6 option

This starts with the bare D6 ½ BAB chassis..... and that’s it!

No spontaneous cures, no domains, no channeling. You start with nothing but then you choose a “sacred/profane path” where all the customization takes place. These could be loosely based on spheres/schools of magic but phrased in a different way. So maybe you have the path of ‘Wrath’ - priests that choose this are specialists in bringing divine destruction down upon their foes. There could be a path of ‘Damnation’ - specialists in de-buffs. Each path has a pool of spells (drawn from all casting lists) and you make your choice of spells from that pool at 1st. You may have an option to spontaneously swap a pool spell with another a certain number of times a day or something similar.

PRO - Offers something completely different from existing cleric and amazing possibilities for flavour.

CON - Would have to be careful to still tie it in with deity worship so as to still fit in with existing material. The design of archetypes could be tricky as each path represents a sort of archetype in itself... do-able though with a bit of thought.

The “Plagiarism” D6 option

Take something like the 3.5 Archivist... give it a bit of a PF tweak and off you go!

PRO - Quick, easy and suitably powerful for a pure caster. Is different in dynamics than the cleric. Infinitely customisable.

CON - Does it really have that divine flavour that a brand new class demands? Customisation is purely through spells - is it limited in archetype potential?

The “Old+New” D6 option

This is what most of the 3PP and homebrew ideas are composed of. Still using things like domains but then taking other things out and replacing them with ‘point pools’ or different uses for channelling or ‘stigmata’ blood sacrifice.

The class would offer in the basic template:

1) 3 domains and extra domain slot - 1 can be prepared, other 2 can be used in slots
2) Light armour only
3) 2 skill points

Customization comes from how the ‘point pool’ is used for example.

PRO - Gives more options and more flavour than is available currently. Relatively easy to design and fit into the existing set-up.

CON - Is it playing safe? Does it have the ‘WOW’ factor of a new class to attract people to it? Is it sufficiently different from the cleric to have ‘mileage’?


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the D6 cleric boils down to "a wizard but with a spell list unsuitable for a D6 class"


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Nothings says you can't create an unchained cleric spell list to go with the unchained cleric.


Mechagamera wrote:
Nothings says you can't create an unchained cleric spell list to go with the unchained cleric.

Would it still feel as "divine casting" or you might as well play a witch/wizard?


Mechagamera wrote:
Nothings says you can't create an unchained cleric spell list to go with the unchained cleric.

True... but it aint gonna happen!!!


Entryhazard wrote:
the D6 cleric boils down to "a wizard but with a spell list unsuitable for a D6 class"

Yes and no....

Yes in terms of the base list but you forget there would be possible balancing factors (eg from the ideas above) to create D6 casters "from both sides of the fence"

1) Extra domain = extra spells
2) Has light armour access
3) Would still have better Will saves
4) Chanelling now WIS based
5) Different class abilities

The Wizard would still obviously have the better spell list but other/extra abilities would serve to balance the scales.


Cleric (Overhaul)

Alignment: One step from deity

Hit Die: d6

BAB: 1/2 progression

Good Saving Throws: Wisdom

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A cleric is proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.

Aura: Unchanged.

Spells: Unchanged.

Channel Energy: Uses WIS instead of CHA.

Domains: A overhauled cleric gains an alignment domain as a bonus domain. N clerics choose Good or Evil based on channeling negative or positive energy. Maybe give alignment and 1 other at 1, and then give a third domain later? The DCs would have to use the full cleric level but the abilities would release at higher levels.

Spontaneous Casting: Unchanged.

Bonus Feats: Gains a bonus channel feat at 6, 10, 14, 18. Maybe metamagic or crafting feats as well?

Bonus Languages: Unchanged


This falls into the "Lazy but effective" category (see above).

I would change the bonus domain option - its restrictive and lacks effect - the spells are mostly those that clerics get anyway!! Just let them have any 3 domains available from their deity.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
Nothings says you can't create an unchained cleric spell list to go with the unchained cleric.
True... but it aint gonna happen!!!

Tell that to the unchained summoner.


Mechagamera wrote:


Tell that to the unchained summoner.

Unchained summoner doesnt have approaching 900 spells to play with..... fancy re-organising that?... I think not.


^That is a strong hint that the spell list needs to be pruned. The same is almost certainly true of many of the other spell lists.

Shadow Lodge

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Entryhazard wrote:
I don't get the obsession towards making it d6 1/2 BAB, the cleric can be a dedicated caster even with d8 3/4

I really don't either. Its a deal breaker to me, as the Cleric/Divine Cases job is to be closer closer to the action than the Arcane casters. There are also plenty of ways to basically do it on your own if that's what you want, like just dumping physical abilities a bit.

Alternatively, why not play a "divine" Wizard.

Divine spells generally just are not buff enough to make the class a real full caster.

Shadow Lodge

hiiamtom wrote:
Saying they should be leaders and have charisma only applies to a narrow band of adventuring clerics since they don't stay in one place and lead a temple. But it does bring up a point about clerics - they have always provided more styles of play than a wizard or some other caster.

Yes and no. Its more of an issue that "leadership" is is not a supported concept in the game. You can not, for instance use Diplomacy against other players to sway their opinions. The only influence they can utilize is a few spells (that many other classes can also use), or just simple RP which is mostly a metagame thing in this case, (more on the player than the character, as rules don't support flavor).

Its also an issue that there are plenty of other leader classes, and many of them are frankly better at it in a general sense. The Paladin is a great leader not because its Cha based, but because its very strong againstany debilitating effects and can also help others without really dipping into another pool like the Cleric, or worrying to much if they picked the right option that day.

Really the only tool the Cleric has is to withhold healing and buffs, which is generally seen as being a jerk.


DM Beckett wrote:


I really don't either. Its a deal breaker to me, as the Cleric/Divine Cases job is to be closer closer to the action than the Arcane casters. There are also plenty of ways to basically do it on your own if that's what you want, like just dumping physical abilities a bit.

Alternatively, why not play a "divine" Wizard.

Divine spells generally just are not buff enough to make the class a real full caster.

Its very simple

1) Arcane casters now have a D6 - D10 option, so why not divine?

2) Most importantly - there is a glaring RP/mechanical hole - 3.5 addressed it so why not PF?

3) d6 divine classes are one of the most homebrewed/3PP (a little birdie tells me Kobold Press have another on its way!) ones out there - market forces are clearly saying there is a need!


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The "boring cleric/boring wizard" mentioned by... someone... (I've just read through the entire thread at once so everyone is blending together) is kind of how I feel about all prepared casters in fairness.
You end up just picking either generically effective spells for the day or spells to counter a specific thing that day (eg. remove blindness), and it removes a lot of the interesting build-defining character choices that spontaneous casters make every time they level up.

I like the suggested ideas for making the choice of deity more relevant and the trimming the current spell list combined with expanding the domain granted spell lists, losing the domain slot restriction, and picking one domain choice to cast spontaneously instead of it automatically being cure/inflict (but it could still be cure/inflict with the right domains/portfolio). Also really interested in that idea of spells getting minor bonuses if they're added more than once.

I agree with the person who said d6 hit points isn't particularly appealing for a class that generally can't afford to hang back as much as the wizard can (unless you make all life-saving clutch situation spells ranged, which...), it can be reflected by a poorer con score if you really want the squishiness, since realistically a d6 hp is -1 hp/lvl compared to d8, and should also be combined with a poor fort save for true wizard-squish. =P

I'm now really interested in expanding domain spell lists and fiddling with deity portfolios... damn there goes my afternoon...

Shadow Lodge

Rashagar wrote:

The "boring cleric/boring wizard" mentioned by... someone... (I've just read through the entire thread at once so everyone is blending together) is kind of how I feel about all prepared casters in fairness.

You end up just picking either generically effective spells for the day or spells to counter a specific thing that day (eg. remove blindness), and it removes a lot of the interesting build-defining character choices that spontaneous casters make every time they level up.

I like the suggested ideas for making the choice of deity more relevant and the trimming the current spell list combined with expanding the domain granted spell lists, losing the domain slot restriction, and picking one domain choice to cast spontaneously instead of it automatically being cure/inflict (but it could still be cure/inflict with the right domains/portfolio). Also really interested in that idea of spells getting minor bonuses if they're added more than once.

I agree with the person who said d6 hit points isn't particularly appealing for a class that generally can't afford to hang back as much as the wizard can (unless you make all life-saving clutch situation spells ranged, which...), it can be reflected by a poorer con score if you really want the squishiness, since realistically a d6 hp is -1 hp/lvl compared to d8, and should also be combined with a poor fort save for true wizard-squish. =P

I'm now really interested in expanding domain spell lists and fiddling with deity portfolios... damn there goes my afternoon...

Damn, internet ate my post. But yeah I tend to agree on the first part but I feel that clerics get shorted much more considering that the cornerstone of the class thematically is linked to the incredibly powerful cultural force that is the faiths and religion of a world and the unique and incredibly powerful being that those powers come from. Those thing should inform more about a cleric than anything else and make them stand out so that you can have 5 clerics of 5 different faiths and their builds come out completely different. Unfortunately the mechanics the cleric gets either don't have the depth of scope to really give you that or leave so much up to the character that you don't really get that interesting specificity (like spells). I think this need for the cleric class to be the class for a cleric of EVERY faith is part of why we get this class that feels like it never goes far enough to really give a player the character they want.

As for the d6 health option I get it, so far we really don't have a d6 hp divine caster in any capacity with even the Oracle sitting at a d8 and at the same time we really don't have a religious scholar/medieval monk option yet in the first party books so I think people are looking to convert the cleric into that and let its more martial options fall to the warpriest. I could get behind that, also the drop of hp and the inherent risk that comes with that for a class with spells like this could lead to it getting more interesting options like getting more deus ex machina options (like being able to spend piety points to have god stop harm to you), stigmata, martyring, and other cool acts of god happening.

Hmm... I might have to start fiddling with that...


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If I had more bandwidth, and actually had a player playng the traditional cleric with spells (instead of a crusader archetype and the Spheres of Power system), I'd probably throw something more substantial together, but here's the quick and dirty on how I envision an unchained cleric. Keep in mind, numbers are rough.

Unchained Cleric:

Alignment: One step from deity
Hit Die: d6
BAB: 1/2 progression
Good Saving Throws: Will
Class Skills: Unchanged
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A cleric is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and shields (except heavy and tower shields). Proficient with deity's favored weapon.

Aura: Unchanged

Spells: Spell list reduced to a set of universal cleric spells, domain spells will add to list. No need for domain slots.

Orisons: Unchanged

Channel Energy: Uses = 1/2 cleric level + Wisdom mod.; Usable on single target within 30 ft.; Turn Undead feat for free; no longer heals/harms an area as baseline; Can now only be used to Turn Undead, provide variant channel energy options based on domains, or fuel domain powers. perhaps it could also be used to cast an augury or similar to spell, to represent divine intervention/guidance.

- Selective Channeling feat now lets you target up to a number of additional targets equal to your Wisdom bonus, when using channel energy. This is designed to emulate current aoe design. Healing and Death domains grant this as a bonus feat.

Domains (General): Combine domains and all their sub-domains together. Domains now offer:

  • 5-6+ Domain Powers, chosen in a Oracle's Mystery/Revelation style; Most domain powers are equalized to be taken at any level, or at least lower levels; Using a domain power consumes one use of Channel Energy, instead of 3 + Wisdom mod (or less) uses per day
  • 3-4 Domain spells for each spell level; added to list and can be prepared each day using spell slots
  • Variant Channeling stuff from Ultimate Magic; each domain has a heal/buff and harm/debuff option for Channel Energy; some current domain powers could become variant channel energy options; no longer heal/harm hp damage as baseline; some are buffed slightly (at least in duration) to compensate for reduction in healing/harming; progresses in power at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level if it has a progression
  • If you select War or Strength or similar domains as your devoted domain, you could get the d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, good Fort progression, and medium armor + shields proficiencies, as a passive domain power OR the crusader archetype could do the same thing instead.

Devoted Domain: Based on deity's portfolio; gained at 1st level, cannot be changed; Gain one domain power, gain another devoted domain power at 6th, 11th, and 16th; gain variant channeling energy options; gain all domain spells

Pledged Domain: Gained at 4th level; when you prepare spells, choose one domain from your deity's portfolio (other than chosen devoted domain); can be changed each time you prepare your spells for the day; gain domain spells and variant channel energy options of chosen pledged domain; at 8th level, whenever you choose a pledged domain, you may also choose one domain power from the pledged domain. At 14th level, you can choose two domain powers from the pledged domain.

Spontaneous Casting: Can be used to sub-in cure/inflict spells or domain spells

Bonus Languages: Unchanged


Sellsword2587 wrote:

If I had more bandwidth, and actually had a player playng the traditional cleric with spells (instead of a crusader archetype and the Spheres of Power system), I'd probably throw something more substantial together, but here's the quick and dirty on how I envision an unchained cleric. Keep in mind, numbers are rough.

Yeah its pretty good for a rough start.

Although I would:

- Leave the base cleric spell list untouched
- Wizard weapons + proficiency from deity
- No armour or shields allowed. Replace with WIS to AC
- No spontaneous cure/inflict

I really think for a good D6 class it will have to look, feel and play sufficiently different from the standard cleric

Shadow Lodge

Silver Surfer wrote:
Sellsword2587 wrote:

If I had more bandwidth, and actually had a player playng the traditional cleric with spells (instead of a crusader archetype and the Spheres of Power system), I'd probably throw something more substantial together, but here's the quick and dirty on how I envision an unchained cleric. Keep in mind, numbers are rough.

Yeah its pretty good for a rough start.

Although I would:

- Leave the base cleric spell list untouched
- Wizard weapons + proficiency from deity
- No armour or shields allowed. Replace with WIS to AC
- No spontaneous cure/inflict

I really think for a good D6 class it will have to look, feel and play sufficiently different from the standard cleric

I'd let them keep light armor and spont but not the Wis to AC. Giving their casting stat more utility in the form of defense just encourages SAD building where you've got clerics with stupid high Wis and junk other stats but being able to tank alongside the old cleric or other martials.


doc the grey wrote:


I'd let them keep light armor and spont but not the Wis to AC. Giving their casting stat more utility in the form of defense just encourages SAD building where you've got clerics with stupid high Wis and junk other stats but being able to tank alongside the old cleric or other martials.

You misunderstand..... by no armour and shield... I mean NO ARMOUR AND SHIELD!! Similar to the Ecclesitheurge. So tanking is not possible.

You forget a basic un-enchanted chain shirt and shield costing almost nothing gives you +6 AC straight off. With max enhancements for both that gets you +16 AC.

The version as stated doesnt prevent investment in med/heavy armour and so secretly encourages tanking - my way completely prevents it. To get +10 AC from WIS will take even the most dedicated build until 13th-14th level.

And remember this is a new D6 class NOT a D8 class... its supposed to be SAD.


Silver Surfer wrote:
doc the grey wrote:


I'd let them keep light armor and spont but not the Wis to AC. Giving their casting stat more utility in the form of defense just encourages SAD building where you've got clerics with stupid high Wis and junk other stats but being able to tank alongside the old cleric or other martials.

You misunderstand..... by no armour and shield... I mean NO ARMOUR AND SHIELD!! Similar to the Ecclesitheurge. So tanking is not possible.

You forget a basic un-enchanted chain shirt and shield costing almost nothing gives you +6 AC straight off. With max enhancements for both that gets you +16 AC.

The version as stated doesnt prevent investment in med/heavy armour and so secretly encourages tanking - my way completely prevents it. To get +10 AC from WIS will take even the most dedicated build until 13th-14th level.

Divine casters don't necessarily have all of the defensive spell options, nor the extreme range on many of their spells, that arcane casters do, so they're more likely to be closer to the enemy in combat. We're already dropping their HP, Fort Save, and medium armor and heavy shield proficiencies, giving them anything less almost ensures TPKs and just seems slightly masochistic. They're still buffers and healers, they need some survivability in combat. Giving them light armor and light shields does NOT make them more likely to tank anymore than a rogue or bard would consider tanking; not without heavy spell and feat investment.

Plus, arcane spell casters suffer from armor spell failure chance, which is why they shy from armor. Divine casters do not, so they'd wear armor (at least light armor) anyhow, accepting the non-proficiency penalties. So why would Clerics abandon armor and shields altogether, based on mythology alone? Also, why give them the option of being proficient with martial weapons (of their deity), but punishing them (further, due to the reduction in BAB progression) for using them in combat? And they WILL use them more than wizards, because they do not have nearly as many offensive spell options that arcane casters do.

If someone wants more of a priesty-type cleric, an archetype that takes away casting in armor and shields, and weapon proficiencies, in exchange for more spells or a another domain or something, is a viable alternative. It's just not how I see clerics (and I'm sure most people as well); their not just mere cloistered priests. Honestly, I always thought that Oracles should be the armorless clerics.

Silver Surfer wrote:
And remember this is a new D6 class NOT a D8 class... its supposed to be SAD.

Wizards/sorcerers don't add their Intelligence/Charisma to AC either, nor do they add INT/CHA to Will saves, and a cleric would. They are less SAD by nature, than a cleric. Don't need to make the cleric even more so than they already are, in comparison.


I've always felt the cleric's spellcasting should be based on CHA, and that they should have a Prayer Book similar to a spellbook.

Consider:
Cleric (Overhaul)

Alignment: One step from deity

Hit Die: d8

BAB: 3/4 progression

Good Saving Throws: Will

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment.

Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether he channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).

Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channel energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include himself in this effect.

Instead, as a standard action, the cleric can spend one use of channel energy to bless one ally within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). A blessed ally gains a sacred or profane bonus equal to 1/2 the number of dice of his channel energy (depending on whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, minimum +1) on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, or to AC (choose one) for a number of rounds equal to the cleric's Charisma modifier.

A cleric must be able to present his holy symbol to use this ability.

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list. His alignment, however, may restrict his from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. A cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions. A cleric can never add spells that he cannot cast due to this restriction to his prayer book.

Orisons: Clerics can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Cleric under “Spells per day.” These spells are treated like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.

Domain: A cleric's deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses one domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain. The cleric gains the listed powers from his domain, if he is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, activating a domain power is a standard action.

Each domain grants a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from his prayer book in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Prayer Books: A cleric can study his prayer book each day when he prepares his spells. He can prepare any spell in his prayer book in his bonus spell slot granted by his domain.

A cleric begins play with a prayer book containing three 1st-level domain spells of his choice from all domains available to his deity. The cleric also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells available to his domains equal to his Charisma modifier to add to the prayer book.

Adding Spells to a Cleric's Prayer Book: Clerics can add new spells to their prayer books through several methods. A cleric can only learn new spells that belong to their deity's domains.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Clerics perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new cleric level, he gains two domain spells of his choice to add to his prayer book. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.

Spells Copied from Another Spellbook or Scroll: A cleric can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a divine scroll or in another cleric's prayer book, so long as the spell is one available to one of his deity's domains. No matter what the spell's source, the cleric must first decipher the magical writing. Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A cleric gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his domain choice at first level.

Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that he did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity) can't convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player's choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy (see channel energy).

Any cleric can channel stored spell energy into domain spells that come from his chosen domain at first level. He can “lose” a prepared domain spell in order to cast a domain spell of the same level or lower. The cleric doesn't need to have these spells in his prayer book, and can prepare these spells in his regular cleric spell slots during his daily meditation.

Shadow Lodge

Silver Surfer wrote:
doc the grey wrote:


I'd let them keep light armor and spont but not the Wis to AC. Giving their casting stat more utility in the form of defense just encourages SAD building where you've got clerics with stupid high Wis and junk other stats but being able to tank alongside the old cleric or other martials.

You misunderstand..... by no armour and shield... I mean NO ARMOUR AND SHIELD!! Similar to the Ecclesitheurge. So tanking is not possible.

You forget a basic un-enchanted chain shirt and shield costing almost nothing gives you +6 AC straight off. With max enhancements for both that gets you +16 AC.

The version as stated doesnt prevent investment in med/heavy armour and so secretly encourages tanking - my way completely prevents it. To get +10 AC from WIS will take even the most dedicated build until 13th-14th level.

And remember this is a new D6 class NOT a D8 class... its supposed to be SAD.

Yes but you're also forgetting that divine casters have far more defensive spell casting and a dependence on it than any of those other classes. A cleric with Wis to AC would have that on top of shield of faith, bear's endurance, owl's wisdom, and a host of other defensive spells to keep them safe. Removing the armor portion allows them to divert those funds they would usually use towards that end towards buying up spells such as this and tanking anyways and potentially harder than the tanks that already exist. I know it sounds enticing but you run the risks of just making a better CODzilla rather than the feeble yet erudite character you're aiming for. This says nothing of any new abilities anyone might be looking to add which, if they model anything like the revelations oracles get can completely obfuscate the need for armor (check out the bone armor revelations and others like it).

For other examples check out the druid or the Synthesist summoner. Being SAD mechanically is just as bad for the game as MAD. Let the class make players have to make decisions in their build to get the things they want rather than just getting all of it through the path of least resistance.


doc the grey wrote:


Yes but you're also forgetting that divine casters have far more defensive spell casting and a dependence on it than any of those other classes. A cleric with Wis to AC would have that on top of shield of faith, bear's endurance, owl's wisdom, and a host of other defensive spells to keep them safe. Removing the armor portion allows them to divert those funds they would usually use towards that end towards buying up spells such as this and tanking anyways and potentially harder than the tanks that already exist. I know it sounds enticing but you run the risks of just making a better CODzilla rather than the feeble yet erudite character you're aiming for. This says nothing of any new abilities anyone might be looking to add which, if they model anything like the revelations oracles get can completely obfuscate the need for armor (check out the bone armor revelations and others like it).

For other examples check out the druid or the Synthesist summoner. Being SAD mechanically is just as bad for the game as MAD. Let the class make players have to...

I really dont get what you mean.

A cleric who has tanked out in physical armour can just as easily cast SOF, Owls Wisdom, defensive spells.... etc as one that isnt?

And in actual fact because of the ease at which they would gain AC in comparison to someone who was only WIS to AC means that they would be LESS LIKELY to cast those type of self defence spells in the first place, thus giving them the opportunity to cast other spells instead. Even Med armour proficiency + shield is worth +8AC completely unenchanted and magic bonuses are relatively cheap.

Clerics with armour + shield can get to 26 AC without any buffing spells by 5th level no probs. A cleric with WIS to AC would still only have a maximum unbuffed AC of 20 at 12th level.... A huge difference...WIS to AC does not create CODZilla !!!

How on earth would I be creating CODZilla?!?!!

Shadow Lodge

Silver Surfer wrote:
doc the grey wrote:


Yes but you're also forgetting that divine casters have far more defensive spell casting and a dependence on it than any of those other classes. A cleric with Wis to AC would have that on top of shield of faith, bear's endurance, owl's wisdom, and a host of other defensive spells to keep them safe. Removing the armor portion allows them to divert those funds they would usually use towards that end towards buying up spells such as this and tanking anyways and potentially harder than the tanks that already exist. I know it sounds enticing but you run the risks of just making a better CODzilla rather than the feeble yet erudite character you're aiming for. This says nothing of any new abilities anyone might be looking to add which, if they model anything like the revelations oracles get can completely obfuscate the need for armor (check out the bone armor revelations and others like it).

For other examples check out the druid or the Synthesist summoner. Being SAD mechanically is just as bad for the game as MAD. Let the class make players have to...

I really dont get what you mean.

A cleric who has tanked out in physical armour can just as easily cast SOF, Owls Wisdom, defensive spells.... etc as one that isnt?

And in actual fact because of the ease at which they would gain AC in comparison to someone who was only WIS to AC means that they would be LESS LIKELY to cast those type of self defence spells in the first place, thus giving them the opportunity to cast other spells instead. Even Med armour proficiency + shield is worth +8AC completely unenchanted and magic bonuses are relatively cheap.

Clerics with armour + shield can get to 26 AC without any buffing spells by 5th level no probs. A cleric with WIS to AC would still only have a maximum unbuffed AC of 20 at 12th level.... A huge difference...WIS to AC does not create CODZilla !!!

How on earth would I be creating CODZilla?!?!!

No need to get shouty. Let me rephrase.

No, this cleric will not likely get to be the fabled Codzilla, he will still be able to easily buff himself to a point where the penalties you put on him are both quite negligible and be competitive with some other classes that seek to fill his roll along with having access to the full casting suite of cleric. That is the problem.

At first level I can have a priest with a Wis mod of +4 on a 20 point buy easy and no armor check penalty easily. That's effectively a mithral chainshirt at first for no cost on his end, has no extra penalties inherent in its design, and is empowered by character growth he already is likely planning to do such as bumping up his wisdom through spells, level increases, and potentially manuals. It doesn't make the player decide between the two options it just further rewards him for doing what he was already going to do, something that is already pretty rewarding on its own with spells, domain powers, and Will saves just to name a few.

Second, just cause he has this buff doesn't mean players won't use those OTHER buffs on themselves. The cleric spell list is defensive and preventative by nature so thinking that a player won't use them seems a bit short sighted. It'd be like saying a cleric in full plate won't AC bump because he's got full plate armor bonuses. Like for example, lets take this 20 point buy cleric I mentioned. At first with a 19 Wis and a 14 Dex he's looking at a AC 16 sitting and potentially that same number for his Touch if you are running it like a Monks bump and a 14 FF. Now he pulls out a scroll of entropic shield and casts protection from evil. Now he's sitting on AC 18, Touch 18, FF 16 and 20% concealment from ranged attacks. He's probably just buffed into AC on par with the 1st level barbarian in the party and isn't even out of spells yet, most of which are party buffing or field control and the normal level creeps can't really do much about it as things like the standard goblin are needing a 16+ just to tag him in melee when they get there. And if he's got a point in UMD and a little extra money in his pocket he can pick up some cheap, low charge wands of mage armor and shield and things start to get really crazy (remember partially used wands can be bought and come at 15 gp a charge for 1st level). Now we're looking at an armorless cleric with an AC of... 26, Touch 18 (26 vs incorporeal touch attacks), FF 24, 20% miss chance vs all ranged attacks, +2 to saves vs. any thrown at him by an evil creature, immunity to possession by evil creatures (means anything with an E alignment), and is immune to magic missiles. That whole mess just cost him 55 gp, 1/20th the value of the mithral chainshirt his Wis to AC is emulating. Worst he's still got all his channels, his orisons, and whatever other spells he's got prepped and whatever he decided to pack on a scroll. That's 1st level, it's only going to get crazier as it continues to level, gets richer, use non-Core rulebook spells, and falls into hands more interested in optimizing than mine.

So again, interesting idea but problems ensue. You might want to look into putting some sort of cost element into it in order to balance it, like make it build of Cha and require that the cleric still have uses of channel energy left or have limited duration and a pool of uses. Otherwise shenanigans begin.

Shadow Lodge

Anyways, I've talked a lot but haven't really shown any big ideas or examples of my own so here's some pre-alpha stuff I kicked around after reading some things here. See if this helps anybody or gives someone some ideas.

New Cleric/The Priest:
Cleric (Overhaul): The hands of god, their mouthpieces on earth, and the seneschal's of their divine being’s will they are the face for these beings and bear the brunt of their blessings and their ire as well as the same loves and loathing from the mortals they interact with.

Alignment: Any, Those farther than One step from their deity suffer penalties to various abilities.

Hit Die: d6

BAB: 1/2 progression

Good Saving Throws: Will (maybe keep fort)

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.
Aura (Ex): Same as vanilla cleric

Channel Energy (Su): Same, save that every morning a cleric may select whether they channel positive or negative energy. This change also modifies whether they spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

Spells: Same save… A cleric regains his 1/4th his spells each morning through 1 hour of prayer. A cleric who seeks to regain his full spell retinue must find a site holy to his faith or of significant symbolism. Clerics may find such a place within 1d4 miles by making a Knowledge (religion, geography, history, or local) check with a DC equal to 15+the highest spell level they can cast and intend to regain. Clerics may reuse sites they are aware of. Clerics may instead opt to attempt to prostrate themselves to their faith, regaining all their spells by making a Knowledge (religion) with a DC equal to 20 + the highest spell level they can cast and intend to regain. They can use this ability once per day. On a failed check the cleric loses 1 piety for their insolence.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric who cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's loses a number of piety points equal to the level of the spell. Clerics whose piety reaches 0 in this manner fall from grace, losing all spellcasting powers until they atone. Spells granted by a deity's domain circumvent this rule.

Orisons: Same save… a Cleric always regains orisons after 1 hour of prayer so long have not lost access to spellcasting.

Domain: Same save… A cleric’s domains also determine the miracles they can gain.

Prayer Books: A cleric may inscribe spells into holy texts called prayer books, encoding the messages of their faith for later recall with sacred reverence without the need to seek sacred sites to regain his spells. Any spell inscribed in his prayer book may be gained during their 1 hour of prayer. Praying for multiple instances of the same spell requires the cleric to make a Knowledge (religion) check with a DC equal to 10+the level of the spell+the number of instances they have already prepared/attempted to prepare it.

Adding Spells to a Cleric's Prayer Book: This in all ways functions like adding spells to a Wizard’s spellbook.

Spontaneous Casting: Same save… a cleric can spontaneously cast any of his domain spells. Whether a cleric can spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells is determined each morning when he regains spells and determines whether he will channel positive or negative energy. This choice must match the energy they are channeling.

Piety: The abstract concept of respect, love, and value that your deity places upon you, piety is both the measure of that and the tiny font of your god’s power he bestows upon you to do his will and perform miracles in his name. A cleric gains a number of piety points each morning after prayer equal to half their Wisdom mod rounded down. A cleric may gain more piety each day by performing rituals and sacrifices sacred to his faith, there is no upper limit on the amount of piety he can gain in a given day but all points are lost at the start of the next day (or when they pray for their spells in the morning). A cleric may spend Piety to cast miracles granted by his god or lose piety due to actions that do not align with the beliefs of his faith, a cleric may never spend more piety than he has but can lose more piety than their current pool through their actions. Clerics who have a piety of -1 or fewer have fallen from grace, losing access to all spells, spell-like abilities, channel energy, piety, and miracles until they atone.

Offerings: A cleric may make sacrifices of time, goods, and or power in order to regain piety. Some quick examples of sacrifices are…

  • A cleric may sacrifice 1/4th of their channel energy use for 1 point of peity.
  • A Cleric may lead a sermon lasting 1d4 hours and make a DC 20 Knowledge (religion) check to regain (1-1d3) piety points
  • A Cleric may make sacrifices of goods or creatures to their god. noncreature based goods sacrificed need to have a value equal to 20 gp x (the number of points previously gained through sacrificed goods/beings x 10).
    Living creature sacrifices require the sacrifice of a number of creatures with a CR equal to 4 x the number of Piety points previously gained that day. Specific deities often have preferred sacrifices that half this price or in rare instances entirely remove it (a god of wine might take half for an offering of wine, a demon lord might take half for LG outsiders, and Korada might waive the cost for the sacrifice of a powerful Daemon actively perpetuating senseless war and atrocities on the material plane). Realize that creatures sacrificed in this way may not always be killed but are often taken by the god they are offered to. Asmodeus might take human sacrifices as slaves in bondage, Phrasma might kill offerings of captured undead, and Sarenrae might spirit away a Daemon to learn its plans or try to redeem it.
  • A Cleric may take 1 temporary negative level to gain 1 point of piety. This negative level is automatically removed when the cleric regains his spells the next day but cannot be otherwise removed.
  • A GM may grant extra piety for actions particularly in alignment with the clerics god. Examples include, defeating an ally of an enemy faith with CR 3+ the cleric’s level, establishing a church or holy site, defending a holy site from overwhelming odds, establishing government in an anarchic frontier, causing a powerful cleric to fall to evil, provoking cultural/political/societal movements to shake up the status quo, etc.

Miracles (Su): The stuff of legend and myth, miracles are the divine acts of a cleric’s will loosed on the world through their words and hands. Doing miracles expends piety. A cleric has access to miracles based on his domains and level. Unless otherwise stated casting a miracle takes a full round action.

Example Miracles: This list should have at least 2 for each domain and a few for clerics of any stripe.

  • Loaves and Fishes: A Cleric may expend 1 point of piety in order to provide food and drink appropriate to his deity equal to his cleric level + his current piety x 5. This food is filling and meets all their dietary needs for the day. This food disappears after 24 hours and rots accordingly.

  • I am Untouched for I walk with God (Good Domain): A Cleric with the good domain may spend one point of piety to add his Wis modifier to his AC and saves for a number of hours equal to his cleric level. A cleric under this effect loses these benefits if he does lethal damage during this time. A cleric may expend this ability to ignore one attack made against them. A cleric may also expend this ability to lay an enemy flat causing a nonlethal hit to knock a character unconscious. The target must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10+Wis+Piety or fall unconscious. This effect works on creatures that are otherwise immune to subdual damage or unconsciousness but are only unconscious for 1 round per 4 cleric levels. Attacking or killing a creature so incapacitated by the cleric or any of his allies causes his piety to drop to -1. Creatures turned over to proper authorities or offered to their god or faith ignore this.

  • Hand of the Trickster (Trickery Domain): A Cleric with the trickery domain may gain the deceptive powers of his god. By expending 1 point of piety the cleric gains the Improved Dirty Trick and Improved Steal feats as bonus feats for a number of hours equal to his cleric level. He treats his cleric level as his BaB and may use his Dex, Wis, or Cha in place of his Str for the purposes of Dirty Trick and Steal combat maneuvers during this time. A Cleric may expend this miracle in order to treat his next attack as a sneak attack by a rogue of his level and make a free Dirty Trick or Steal combat maneuver.

  • Divine Assistance (Any): A Cleric may beseech his god for aid, praying for aid from beyond to assist in their endeavors, calling an outsider to aid. This miracle takes 1 round to cast and costs 1 piety per HD of the creature plus 1 for every step it is from your god’s alignment. Creatures summoned in this way that are more than 1 step from your gods alignment cost an additional 2 piety for each step beyond said boundary. This outsider stays for 1 hour per cleric level. The death of this servitor of god causes the cleric to lose piety equal to the cost of calling them. A cleric may call any outsider with this ability, clerics with the animal domain add animals & vermin to this list, clerics with the plant domain add plants to this list. Animals and vermin added to this list require handle animal checks to command but treat as animal companions and know tricks as an animal companion equal to your level.

  • Inspire Courage (Nobility): A Cleric with the nobility domain may gain the ability to inspire courage as a bard equal to his cleric level for 1 piety. He gains a number of rounds of Inspire Courage equal to 4+Cha. He may expend this ability to grant all allies who can see and hear him double bonuses for 1 round and remove all fear effects.

  • Strength of the Heavens (Strength): By spending 2 peity a cleric with the strength domain may add his Wisdom to Fort saves and all melee atk rolls, str checks, and str based skill checks and treats his encumbrance as 1 category lighter for a number of hours equal to his cleric level. On a nat 1 these bonuses disappear. He may expend this ability use his prodigious strength to counter one blow, when hit by an attack that causes bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage he may make a Str check with a DC equal to the damage done. If he succeeds the damage is negated, his ungodly strength too much for such mortal attacks. This check is calculated before he loses this buff.

This list of miracles is by no means complete and is meant to give you a barometer of what to expect. Each domain should get about 2 of these and should have some level locked or require larger investment of piety for even bigger payouts. There should be around 4-8 (likely 6) neutral ones that any cleric can cast with blander/more general effects.


For those calling to make the Cleric less MAD -- remember that it's actually a good thing to have a certain amount of MAD, since the non-spellcasting classes are semi-MAD. So don't get too eager to throw out Charisma-dependence of Channeling. (And by the way, this is also a consideration for arcane casters, although the arcane 9/9 casters are currently not MAD for the most part.)


doc the grey wrote:


No need to get shouty

Not remotely getting shouty.... more in a state of complete disbelief!

Your argument comes apart essentially in 2 ways:

1) Action economy

A round spent buffing is the same for tanked or WIS to AC and deals the same benefit....

In addition the average encounter allows 1-2 rounds pre-buffing. Whereas your armoured cleric isnt that concerned about getting his AC up he can now focus on other areas. The WIS to AC option desperately needs his 1-2 rounds to get his AC up and mitigate the HP losses that he is more likely to inur......Advantage tanked cleric.

I had a cleric once with AC 31 (12th level)- completely unbuffed from spells. I rarely got hit in combat and therefore I did not cast any AC or HP buffing spells.... what is the point of using up action economy on something with v.little additional benefit?? So now I had free action economy. A WIS to AC build would always have to do some kind of AC or HP pre-buff.

2) Cost

PC Level Wealth
2 1,000 gp
3 3,000 gp
4 6,000 gp
5 10,500 gp

As can be seen basic unenchanted armour and shields is very easily affordable.....a heavy wooden shield (+2AC) is 7gp for gods sake! And since we're talking about the lifespan of a character, it can be very easily seen that enhanced armour and shields are also easily affordable. And even then youre forgetting about Magic Vestment as a 3rd level spell - a hr/lvl spell that can be cast on armour AND shields....... Advantage tanked cleric.

Yes the WIS to AC has a benefit in terms of touch AC but that is a niche benefit that diminishes as levels rise. Remember we're talking about the lifespan of a character.

Please....lets not try and debate when the facts are clearly in front of us....its embarassing!...CODZilla?!?!

And as for talking about various items.... any item that one cleric can buy another can buy too... theres no difference. Any spell that can be cast by one can be cast by another.....no difference.

Ive played loads of clerics in my time.....How on earth you think that a WIS to AC cleric is at an overall advantage from an AC perspective over an armoured cleric I dont know! Now if youre basing your argument on thematic grounds thats something else entirely, but your current perspective lacks perspective!!!

Shadow Lodge

Huh?

Shadow Lodge

Silver Surfer wrote:

Your argument comes apart essentially in 2 ways:

1) Action economy
A round spent buffing is the same for tanked or WIS to AC and deals the same benefit....
-
In addition the average encounter allows 1-2 rounds pre-buffing. Whereas your armoured cleric isnt that concerned about getting his AC up he can now focus on other areas. The WIS to AC option desperately needs his 1-2 rounds to get his AC up and mitigate the HP losses that he is more likely to inur......Advantage tanked cleric.
-
I had a cleric once with AC 31 (12th level)- completely unbuffed from spells. I rarely got hit in combat and therefore I did not cast any AC or HP buffing spells.... what is the point of using up action economy on something with v.little additional benefit?? So now I had free action economy. A WIS to AC build would always have to do some kind of AC or HP pre-buff.

I think you have this totally backwards. A "tanked" Cleric, which I'm taking to mean a normal one that wears armor is going to be just as dependent on self and party buffs as a Wis to AC one, and have the same sort of Action Economy issues, though the Wis to AC one in most worst case scenarios will have advantages. All those times characters go to parties, balls, or whatever, or get woken up in the middle of the night, the Wis to AC Cleric will still be protected. The Armor to AC Cleric, maybe not.

Both characters would be able to fully utilize things like Magic Vestment, (which stipulates it can be cast on clothing). The Wis to AC Cleric, however, is going to get a lot more mileage out of pumping Dex, not needing to worry about Max Dex and a lot less about carrying capacity, as usually armor is the big one.

And where are you getting this idea that most encounters allow for 1, or even 2 rounds of pre-buffing? I'd say that in my experience 1 round is pretty iffy. 2 rounds is very, very uncommon.

Silver Surfer wrote:

2) Cost

PC Level Wealth
2 1,000 gp
3 3,000 gp
4 6,000 gp
5 10,500 gp
As can be seen basic unenchanted armour and shields is very easily affordable.....a heavy wooden shield (+2AC) is 7gp for gods sake! And since we're talking about the lifespan of a character, it can be very easily seen that enhanced armour and shields are also easily affordable. And even then youre forgetting about Magic Vestment as a 3rd level spell - a hr/lvl spell that can be cast on armour AND shields....... Advantage tanked cleric.
-
Yes the WIS to AC has a benefit in terms of touch AC but that is a niche benefit that diminishes as levels rise. Remember we're talking about the lifespan of a character.
-
Please....lets not try and debate when the facts are clearly in front of us....its embarassing!...CODZilla?!?!
-
And as for talking about various items.... any item that one cleric can buy another can buy too... theres no difference. Any spell that can be cast by one can be cast by another.....no difference.
-
Ive played loads of clerics in my time.....How on earth you think that a WIS to AC cleric is at an overall advantage from an AC perspective over an armoured cleric I dont know! Now if youre basing your argument on thematic grounds thats something else entirely, but your current perspective lacks perspective!!!

If we are going to debate the facts right in front of us, lets not forget you know, all the facts.

Like the fact that the "tanked" Cleric is devoting their money to increasing something, but is doing so at the expense of other things. That Wis to AC Cleric is going to have the benefit of not worrying about those ACPs, but can also invest in other things that the "tanked" Cleric will not be able to do so as easily. Acrobatics for one, and it's just a simple Trait investment to get that as a class skill that will do wonders for both mobility and battlefield control. You mentioned Touch AC, (like it where trivial), but what about Refl Saves, Initiative, the fact that Dex has the most attached skills, etc. . . And while a Wis to AC Cleric is not assured to have a high Dex, (they are still a very MAD Class), it's a pretty poor choice not to do so when the class essentially incentivizes it so easily. it's like playing a Low Dex and Con Wiz or Sor, sure, it can be done, but it's a choice to purposefully handicap the character.

Or that a Wis to AC Cleric is going to benefit a lot more (and have the funds to work towards) things like Monk's Robes, Bracers of Armor, and items that grant Mage Armor/Shield (or just asking the friendly Arcane Caster for help).

The two main advantages that the "tanked" Cleric may have it's easier to get magic properties on magical Armor and Shields, BUT, most of those really are not that worth it. Deathless being a big exception. Unless the "tanked" Cleric sticks to Light Armor, they are also very far behind with Movement and Mobility, and these are generally difficult to buff up too much.

The Wis to AC Cleric, being that Wis is a prime stat for the Cleric, basically gets rewarded twice for bumping heir Wis, something that's required over the life of the character, but makes spells like Owl's Wisdom much, much better.


I'm sorry we must be playing different games.....

This debate is purely based around the protective benefits in terms of survival.....not in the infinite number of variables and tangents surrounding it.

- I didnt say that armoured cleric wouldnt self buff did I? What I did say he would be far less likely to need AC and HP buffs since he will be less likely to be hit. The maths dont lie.

- Like I said a cleric with WIS-AC will still only have a max base AC20 AT 12th level. Without serious investments he gets chopped to pieces.

- Coming up with examples about being "woken up in the night".... etc is clutching at straws I'm afraid. The amount of times this ACTUALLY happens in games is very small.

- Yes WIS-AC cleric can use magic vestment but armoured cleric can use it twice.... armour AND shield....3 times if your GM is lenient!

- Yes the WIS-AC cleric can pump DEX but thats if he chooses to do so. And even if full tank you can still get +1 from DEX and in med this is +3. With a MAD class like the cleric, ability points can be put in all manner of places for all manner of reasons for all manner of builds.... this does not change anything.

- If you're saying in your games that even 1 round is iffy, then that merely strengthens my arguement. The armored cleric is at an advantage in 'sudden encounters'.... he has less need to AC buff.

- Even plain, un-enhanced armour and shield is very cheap. By 2nd level I can have +8AC from armour and shield no probs and for little money. WIS-AC cleric really takes a while to build up speed.

- This debate is centred around a new D6 class, that is inherently more "caster". A class with full 9th level casting but also additional enhancements to their spellcasting ability vs the old D8 cleric. With this in mind having it so that it was still easily possible to have all this AND full armour in my view made it unbalanced. There is also the RP/thematic aspect of the 'Holy Man'. If you disagree.... brilliant.

- Yes investing in magically enhanced armour/shields costs money but not hugely so. I've never been in an adventure where someone didnt have Craft Arms/Armour feat. And like I said basic armour and sheild is very cheap. Remember we are talking about the entire lifspan of the character.

- The thing about AC is that once you get it past a certain level you almost become unhitable... and so whether you have 34AC or 38AC becomes irrelevant. Conversely the same applies with low AC...12AC or 16AC it doesnt matter... youre getting hit hard and regularly!

- In terms of survivability having high AC is waaaaaaay more likely to keep you alive vs any minor issues with movement/mobility. And various spells... etc can very easily solve any minor issues.

LOLOL.... I've never ever died through lack of mobility!I have however been cut into pieces by sharp things.

Like I said right at the start, if your experiences are different from mine fair enough... then we agree to disagree.

BUT in all my RPG experience....AC is what contributes massively to keeping people alive in the middle of the fight.... not having the ability to have a bit of WIS-AC at 4am after the Duke's disco!... :o)))

Shadow Lodge

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Silver Surfer wrote:

I'm sorry we must be playing different games.....

This debate is purely based around the protective benefits in terms of survival.....not in the infinite number of variables and tangents surrounding it.

Maybe, but it looks like you are also not taking into account some of the more obvious things that strengthen the Wis to AC Cleric as well, to show it as weaker. Mage Armor is a long lasting buff and really only costs you either 750 (Wand) or 1,000 (Pearl of Power).

If we assume a +2 Dex, +3 Wis, Wis to AC Cleric, that's a pretty comfortable 19 AC at level 1, (NOT 12th). No other buffs used. Sure, the Armored Cleric is going to (possibly) have a higher AC, but they are also taking other penalties to compensate for that and that absolutely does matter.

Silver Surfer wrote:
- I didnt say that armoured cleric wouldnt self buff did I? What I did say he would be far less likely to need AC and HP buffs since he will be less likely to be hit. The maths dont lie.

Why do you say that? At best they are absolutely equal in their need/desire to buff for combat, but at worst the Wis to AC Cleric is going to already be prepared regardless of circumstances, (such as waking up or being in situations where the can't reasonably wear armor).

Silver Surfer wrote:


- Like I said a cleric with WIS-AC will still only have a max base AC20 AT 12th level. Without serious investments he gets chopped to pieces.

Sure, and if a Armored Cleric doesn't bother investing either, their AC is going to also be low. Keep in mind that Clerics need a Light Shield or Buckler to cast if they wield a weapon, and a fair comparison to a Wis to AC Cleric that doesn't invest in AC is a Chain Shirt and Light Shield, (utilizing the same stats as above).

Armored AC: AC 17, T 12, FF 15
Wis AC: AC 15, T 15, FF 13(assuming Wis to AC works exactly like the Monk's)

+1 Armor AC: AC 19, T 12, FF 17
Wis Mage Armor AC: AC 19, T 15, FF 17

No Armor/Shield AC: AC 12, T 12, FF 10
Wis AC: AC 15, T 15, FF 13

I guess the math really does show. :P Thing is, you keeps saying things like "over the life of the character", but then keep giving really iffy, one-sided examples as a single glimpse.

Silver Surfer wrote:
- Yes WIS-AC cleric can use magic vestment but armoured cleric can use it twice.... armour AND shield....3 times if your GM is lenient!

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Sure, a Cleric could cast this once on armor and once on shield, but thy are using up resources to do so. They don't just get it for free, and honestly, Armor/Shield is pretty cheap over all. Not sure what you mean by 3 times?

Silver Surfer wrote:
- Yes the WIS-AC cleric can pump DEX but thats if he chooses to do so. And even if full tank you can still get +1 from DEX and in med this is +3. With a MAD class like the cleric, ability points can be put in all manner of places for all manner of reasons for all manner of builds.... this does not change anything.

Like I pointed out, but will make more clear below, you don't have to pump Dex, but not doing so is intentionally not playing to the strength of the new class and purposefully handicapping yourself. This isn't a good way to compare the two in a meaningful way.

Silver Surfer wrote:
- This debate is centred around a new D6 class, that is inherently more "caster". A class with full 9th level casting but also additional enhancements to their spellcasting ability vs the old D8 cleric. With this in mind having it so that it was still easily possible to have all this AND full armour in my view made it unbalanced. There is also the RP/thematic aspect of the 'Holy Man'. If you disagree.... brilliant.

But wait, if it's intended to be a squish, stay back class that doesn't worry about carrying armor and shield, why wouldn't it keep Str and Con fairly low (comparatively) and pump more into Dex, Wis, and Cha, the areas it's going to benefit most from. That's a lot less MAD then the basic d8 Cleric, right, so they can easily afford it, (comparatively). I'm not disagreeing with your view or desire for a "Holy Man", which is purely a matter of opinion. Just the idea that Wis to AC is significantly weaker than Light and Medium Armor, or is somehow a weakness. Not trying to be a jerk, but most of the reasons you present, (outside of those that are pretty specific to your personal gaming experience), just don't hold up.

Shadow Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:

I'm sorry we must be playing different games.....

This debate is purely based around the protective benefits in terms of survival.....not in the infinite number of variables and tangents surrounding it.

Maybe, but it looks like you are also not taking into account some of the more obvious things that strengthen the Wis to AC Cleric as well, to show it as weaker. Mage Armor is a long lasting buff and really only costs you either 750 (Wand) or 1,000 (Pearl of Power).

If we assume a +2 Dex, +3 Wis, Wis to AC Cleric, that's a pretty comfortable 19 AC at level 1, (NOT 12th). No other buffs used. Sure, the Armored Cleric is going to (possibly) have a higher AC, but they are also taking other penalties to compensate for that and that absolutely does matter.

Silver Surfer wrote:
- I didnt say that armoured cleric wouldnt self buff did I? What I did say he would be far less likely to need AC and HP buffs since he will be less likely to be hit. The maths dont lie.

Why do you say that? At best they are absolutely equal in their need/desire to buff for combat, but at worst the Wis to AC Cleric is going to already be prepared regardless of circumstances, (such as waking up or being in situations where the can't reasonably wear armor).

Silver Surfer wrote:


- Like I said a cleric with WIS-AC will still only have a max base AC20 AT 12th level. Without serious investments he gets chopped to pieces.

Sure, and if a Armored Cleric doesn't bother investing either, their AC is going to also be low. Keep in mind that Clerics need a Light Shield or Buckler to cast if they wield a weapon, and a fair comparison to a Wis to AC Cleric that doesn't invest in AC is a Chain Shirt and Light Shield, (utilizing the same stats as above).

Armored AC: AC 17, T 12, FF 15
Wis AC: AC 15, T 15, FF 13(assuming Wis to AC works exactly like the Monk's)

+1 Armor AC: AC 19, T 12, FF 17
Wis Mage Armor AC: AC 19, T 15, FF 17

No Armor/Shield AC: AC 12,...

I feel your pain here man but I think this guy is having a very different conversation with someone other than us. He's hearing what he wants to hear and seems intent on not hearing others.

So with that in mind lets close this shit up and pivot back around. I'd actually love to hear some of your thoughts on the ideas I flitted through here earlier.


Well young men (DM/Doc) we clearly come from 2 different gaming philosophies and perspectives

I believe in terms of average overall character survivability that:

Magical full plate + shield > WIS-AC for a variety of reasons

You believe in the other way round for a number of reasons

Fair enough.... each to their own!


Thinking about the D6 options again... it strikes me that if it was to happen, Paizo might stray towards the "lazier" option. The issue being that they would want to have a class that had sufficient enough room for archetype design (aka 'mileage') - a highly customisable base would of course be the more interesting but it would straight away create difficulties in archetype design which are of course effectively customised versions of the original base class.

Shadow Lodge

Lets put aside the d6 Cleric, please. This is a Cleric Overhaul/"Unchained Cleric" topic, not a "priest" topic, after all.

The major issues with the Class, in my opinion, are that it:

1.) Kind of sucks most of the time at being a warrior-priest/mouth piece of a deity of ________, mostly because in most cases is just going to have 1 thematic spell per level per day. (Domain Spells)

2.) Regardless of theme/build, is really shoehorned into needing to be a healer to some degree.

3.) Has the least amount of Feats of any class in the game.

4.) Has to walk the line that at low levels it's generally better to buff/heal a round and then enter combat, but after approx. 5th level that swaps and it's generally better to utilize spells than to actually enter martial combat.

5.) In many ways, has <among> the poorest skills in the game.

6.) Is debatably the most MAD class there is. At least to actually do it's intended job.

7.) People still think it's overpowered and believe in things like the CODzilla.


Respectfully, DM Beckett, I think this really does come down to being a "priest" topic.

There are multiple existing classes built with a similar chassis to the cleric, such as the inquisitor. That chassis being the d8 hd, 3/4 BAB, spellcaster (varies but usually a 6-level caster). The design space could be considered well-represented. The existing cleric has been modified from its 3.X predecessors to allow you to play a character who is not pigeon-holed into being a healer, but otherwise is very similar to its past incarnations. Other, newer classes have been granted various abilities that are more interchangeable, more versatile, more powerful, and overall provide more customization options when its time to build archetypes.

The priest is a space that has not been explored by Paizo to a great degree. Various 3PP products have explored this area, but many of them are variations on the 3.X cloistered cleric and can be considered to be updates on that (respectable) class variant.

Pathfinder classes are more powerful than their predecessors in many cases, but newer classes have more interesting toys, more flavorful toys, and/or just plain more toys. To unchain the cleric, more toys just might be the answer. But to maintain the class without pushing its power upward, you have to give up something, and that would likely be the medium progression foundation of the base cleric.

Mind you, this is what I believe, and some of your points are still quite salient to this (particular points 1, 3, 4, and 5 in my view). But rebuilding the cleric using that d8 hd, 3/4 BAB chassis will be quite difficult without either overshadowing other classes in that arena or only making minor modifications. Let inquisitors and warpriests be the martial arms of the faith. We could use someone to be the quiet, scholarly, magical, etc. arm of the faith.


DM Beckett wrote:

Lets put aside the d6 Cleric, please. This is a Cleric Overhaul/"Unchained Cleric" topic, not a "priest" topic, after all.

Ermmm.... settle down please soldier!!

This is not YOUR thread.... many people have discussed D6 options and so will I.

If YOU want to talk about D8 only then that's fine OK?

Thank you kindly for this


This is the unfortunate problem with the cleric design - the existing class design makes redesign very awkward if you insist on sticking to a D8, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves, armour, shield format.

Warpriests especially have made the martial aspect of clerics largely redundant..... the design is sooooo much better suited for it. As several people have commented in the past, the warpriest/inquisitor is really what a cleric class should be in the first place.

Shadow Lodge

Silver Surfer wrote:
Ermmm.... settle down please soldier!!

Actually, being a soldier (and a medic at that) that's partially why I'm not really a fan of the priest concept.


DM Beckett wrote:

Actually, being a soldier (and a medic at that) that's partially why I'm not really a fan of the priest concept.

Wonderful to hear.... good for you


Silver Surfer wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

Lets put aside the d6 Cleric, please. This is a Cleric Overhaul/"Unchained Cleric" topic, not a "priest" topic, after all.

Ermmm.... settle down please soldier!!

This is not YOUR thread.... many people have discussed D6 options and so will I.

If YOU want to talk about D8 only then that's fine OK?

Thank you kindly for this

As the OP I can say (/have said) definitively that the thread was started as 'not about priest' - I think I said that in the original post even.

From my perspective, I *like* the cleric, but think it needs fixing - not that it needs to be thrown out of the window and turned into something else. I've said several times that I think a d6 priest would be possible, but isn't what I'm interested in - that said I'm less active on this than half of you, and as you said, a d6 caster priest class is obviously something a decent number of people really, really want.

I personally am still just working on the d8 options, but ultimately I think everyone's contributing to the conversation - if you want to talk about priest-types, go for it, as long as the conversation is still focused on what makes the 'cleric' special/interesting, not just divine wizard. If you want to talk bout the d8 cleric fix, do that too! What I will say is people need to stop shitting on each others' ideas - you can say 'that's not how I would do it/what I'm looking for - don't say 'what the hell are you thinking? NO ARMOR/YES ARMOR.

On the topic of Wis-to-AC - I agree from a mechanical perspective this *is* actually a 'tankier' option than light armor in 80% of cases. Wis to AC gives them a powerful, untyped bonus to AC that can't be duplicated through armor or magic items... while not wearing armor can. For 750gp you've got a wand of mage armor and you've just overcome the primary 'weakness' of wis to ac, and have about as good armor as a cleric with light armor proficiency. Could a cleric with a chain shirt get +5 armor? Yes, for 25k. Wis to AC gets the same bonus, at first level, for free, except that you can stack magic vestments. A cleric who really wants heavy armor needs to spend feats or a dip in a martial class - fine, go for it, conventional wisdom is that spells are better anyway (and your squishy priest isn't going to be frontlining with poor bab and hp, even if they have a level in fighter).

I also just honestly do not fathom the motivation with getting adventurers into plain-clothes. Like honestly, light armor is fine - even wizards not being able to wear armor is stupid to me. Let them wear light armor too as far as I'm concerned. Just saves them a spell slot and their AC will suck anyway.

On the central topic - a really interesting point that was brought up is the question of what ARE the roles clerics fill, or that we can imagine them filling. Hiiamtom suggested "scholastic (monk-like), evangelist (leader), purifier/corrupter (strength cleric), and beacon (channeling)"

Some random thoughts I'd add to that:

The Leader/Evangelist - A largely dedicated support character - blasphemously I think this one could draw a lot from the 4E Cleric, Warlord, and Bard - it should have features or a way to spend their actions investing in their allies doing cool stuff, coordinating, or maybe even handing out something like teamwork feats. Maybe as part of a channel you can spend your action(s) to grant allies bonus actions? This could be a really cool playstyle, and the goal would be to make the 'support cleric' a more active/dynamic participant.

The 'Doomsayer' - "Truly, Banjo giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other" - Fire and Brimstone, or Loaves and Fishes - this guy is a real old testament type, and he holds your fortune in his hands. Maybe gets a sort of 'prayer' ability that can help allies or hinder foes but either way specializes in buff/debuff dynamics.

The Thaumaturge - The miracle worker is the *serious* spellcaster - while all of the above are full casters and thus that's their ultimate focus, the thaumaturge should take this a step further - perhaps she gets a spell recovery method, divine metamagic, spontaneous spell slots or can learn wizard spells, something like that.

The Crusader - this is your battle cleric - it differs from the warpriest in being a full/primary caster first, with some mid-weight combat abilities and armor, to be contrasted with the warpriests extensive weapon and armor profs/enhancements, swift action buffs and combat focused blessings.

(There also needs to be an awareness of 'secondary roles' - the 'scholar' really belongs here more, as "walking encyclopedia", while an important function, is not a 'Role' in PF. Ultimately I think secondary role is going to be better shaped by deity - community/charm/etc clerics imply Face, knowledge/magic implies encyclopedia, nature/animal implies survival, etc...)

Can anyone think of others? I've broken these up as subclasses or archetypes, but I don't know if that's the best way to do it. The structure of my unchained cleric currently has more like revelations that you would use to customize and shape your role.


It all boils down to a couple of stumbling blocks:

If you want to keep cleric as D8,3/4 BAB.... etc etc etc class then any re-doing will be very restricted in order to keep overall balance. In addition any changes made will in all likelihood upset the apple cart in terms of existing archetypes, not to mention all the domains and rules for deity worship... etc. This general problem is manifested in the existing cleric archetypes which are on average fairly poor.

It really is I think a bit of a "rock and a hard place" scenario.

Which leads on to the D6 option... which I think in terms of being able to fit into the existing Paizo structure is not only far more workable but also provides a sought after and highly thematically credible base class.

But then the stumbling block here is ironically Paizo themselves who are strangely reluctant to design a D6 divine class of any description whatsoever.

Tis a puzzle to be sure!!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unchained Cleric

Just smooshing up a bunch of Paizo released rules to make the Cleric a bit more interesting as far as leveling and Channeling go.

Included the Undead Lord cleric, because a player in my game wants to play one.


Silver Surfer wrote:

It all boils down to a couple of stumbling blocks:

If you want to keep cleric as D8,3/4 BAB.... etc etc etc class then any re-doing will be very restricted in order to keep overall balance. In addition any changes made will in all likelihood upset the apple cart in terms of existing archetypes, not to mention all the domains and rules for deity worship... etc. This general problem is manifested in the existing cleric archetypes which are on average fairly poor.

...I don't follow. For the first part: If you're saying the class has to be restricted because 3/4 bab etc and full cleric casting is 'too powerful', I just don't buy it. Magi, Warpriests, Inquisitors, Alchemists etc get *stacks* of class features to make them effective at what they do. Now, what they do is Gishy - but consider the Summoner (pre-unchained) which is basically a full caster in disguise - but even with medium bab and hp, they're still a wimp without their eidolon.

On the full caster side, both Oracles and Druids get 5x (i.e. any) of the features of the Cleric. The wizard has a better spell list and has more features (though obviously now we've dropped out of medium bab range).

As far as existing archetypes, apple carts, and all prior comments on 'what paizo is likely to do' - who cares? Who cares at all? Throw as much of it as you want in the trash - redesign the class, redesign the domains. Of course the archetypes aren't going to work. Who cares? No one likes them anyway - that's why it's called the 'complete cleric overhaul' and not 'an archetype to adjust the cleric' =P

And paizo isn't going to do anything, but that could not mean less to me - I realize a lot of GMs only allow core content or paizo content, though honestly that baffles me - but I assume those guys aren't hanging out on the homebrew forums.

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