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Hi
A friend of mine has been running a campaign starting at lvl 12, including the Occultist book,amongst others.
In a recent battle (I'm a Kineticist. lvl 12 TK, took Fire as 2md element at 7th) I had to go invisible to stay alive & summoned Fire Elementals (which lasted about a round).
Now my friend says that this is broken, nore powerful than even a wizard who can only summon a few per day. (Forgetting the fct that I only summoned about 5 that day).
He says that is broken and never wants to use the Occult book ever again, anywhere.
This is offset by his determinatination that another friend in the same game wields an oversized chainsaw in each hand, with many attacks each round, doing over 100hp damage more than my Kinetecist each round.
Does anyone else think Kineticists are overpowered in light of the dual wielding oversized chainsaws monster?
I'll accept his views since he's my friend & it's his game. Wondering if I'm so out of kilter not to think his is the only view?
Thanks
Paul H
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Yeah, Kineticist isn't really close to being broken. It's rather weak compared to a wizard. While a wizard has a limit, the things it can do with those limits are straight up amazing. Kineticist gets a few tricks to mess around with, and if they're good at using those tricks they can seem really good, but for the most part they're basically only doing the same things over and over again.
Planning around them once you know those tricks is easy enough since they can't alter them after selecting them, so it's a matter of understanding what they'll do and then you can easily play around them.
Really without hard optimizing, their damage isn't anything to write home about either, so being invisible and summoning up some flame buddies doesn't make you broke, it makes you sensible considering the situation.
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Kineticists aren't overpowered.
Kineticists are unique and "break" a couple of ideas how the game works.
People see the "all day" part and think it's completely broken, even if it's way less than anything else you get.
Being invisible and flying is something a caster would be doing right now. And your summons require you to use a move action each round to direct, and it's still only lasting 12 rounds, so you have to re-summon it for each fight.
Most people who know mechanics say that the kineticst is good to maybe a little weak, but people who don't really know mechanics have gut reactions saying it's way to strong of a class.
Yeah, none of the occult stuff should be causing a power discrepancy. Sounds like he got a little butthurt over you creatively using your powers. If he's really your friend, have a serious conversation with him, explain how class balance works and ask him to reevaluate double oversized chainsaw man. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to do that, mind you, but I'd ask to know how it works anyway.
Don't let the DM play favorites, especially if he gets pissy about your utterly benign Kineticist.
If you look at any of Mr. Seifter's comments on the class, you'll learn that the kineticist was meticulously balanced with its complex burn system and bonus progression mechanics. I think your friend needs to sit back and consider just what "broken" means. If he doesn't let up though, there are plenty of guides on how to build a god-wizard. Maybe you can get him to ban the core rules too.
Kineticist are basically fullcasters under a different system of magic. They can do some very strong things and do it at will as a way to compensate for a lack of higher level spells.
I would also say that the standard PF fullcaster is broken OP.
Your GM is in for worlds of disappointment if he believes certain "norms" are inherently balanced.
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Most people consider kineticist Underpowered.
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Their design has flaws but the class works well.
The problem with Crane Style is that it requires a free hand for Crane Wing, which proscribes Gather Power use.
Also, the Kineticist is the kind of class that can be fixed with feats and magic items - if they ever release them.
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The problem with Crane Style is that it requires a free hand for Crane Wing, which proscribes Gather Power use.
This must be some next level "hand" rulings.
The problem with Crane Style is that it requires a free hand for Crane Wing, which proscribes Gather Power use.
No, a free hand is a free hand.
It was my understanding that Gather Power used your free hands as an action, in the same way that using a hand for a touch attack made that hand count as "used".
For example, when a Paladin uses a shield hand to Lay on Hands, they'd lose their shield bonus because that hand became otherwise occupied to be used for personal defense.
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It was my understanding that Gather Power used your free hands as an action, in the same way that using a hand for a touch attack made that hand count as "used".
For example, when a Paladin uses a shield hand to Lay on Hands, they'd lose their shield bonus because that hand became otherwise occupied to be used for personal defense.
This isn't true. A paladin doesn't loose his shield bonus while using lay on hands.
Aight
The only problem that I can really find is that some of the utility powers have options that can break encounters. (invisibility, stone shape, move earth, many of the 9th level talents, etc).
Of course, a sorcerer could do that just as easily with spell slots. A kineticist can do some of these things 'all day'...but just one use of some of these options can break gameplay.
Kineticists can be extremely powerful, but that power comes at a hefty price. Burning deals non-curable non-lethal damage and the energy damage is often resisted, if not ineffective.
Also, you kinda need ranged attack feats more than other feats, you need to focus on Constitution and Dexterity instead of Strength, you can't really carry a weapon because of Gather Power (Kinetic Blade/Whip/Fist helps though), you are limited to light armors, if not no armor to avoid Maximum Dexterity.
Finally, a kineticist is limited to one energy source. Your pyrokineticist is gonna cry against a red dragon... or underwater...or near a room filled with blackpowder, like a ship. Aether has barely some use (one talent doesn't even work with Aether). Earth is the strongest, but it's pure physical damage (it does has its flaws). Air and Water are rather weak in terms of power. Void and Wood are heavily underpresented.
Sure, it's powerful to chuck fireballs at will, except that you barely have any backup plan.
some might argue that the kineticist is indeed broken but in the sense of not functioning adequately
So, if I summarize the various comments from various threads correctly, optimization floor is like 3/10 (medium damage blasts, but might get resisted; bad utility if 'wrong' talents). Ceil sounds like 8/10 (good utility and situationally much damage if elements etc. wisely chosen, but restricted number of options).
Sounds pretty perfect, if you want a class which rewards learning and fits well into the power level of the group. Though if you want the strongest or simpelst option available, kineticist appearantly won't make you happy.
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Hi
A friend of mine has been running a campaign starting at lvl 12, including the Occultist book,amongst others.
In a recent battle (I'm a Kineticist. lvl 12 TK, took Fire as 2md element at 7th) I had to go invisible to stay alive & summoned Fire Elementals (which lasted about a round).
Now my friend says that this is broken, nore powerful than even a wizard who can only summon a few per day. (Forgetting the fct that I only summoned about 5 that day).
He says that is broken and never wants to use the Occult book ever again, anywhere.
This is offset by his determinatination that another friend in the same game wields an oversized chainsaw in each hand, with many attacks each round, doing over 100hp damage more than my Kinetecist each round.
Does anyone else think Kineticists are overpowered in light of the dual wielding oversized chainsaws monster?
I'll accept his views since he's my friend & it's his game. Wondering if I'm so out of kilter not to think his is the only view?
Thanks
Paul H
Just my two cents:
People complained that the Drow class and the At will spell like abilites was game breaking. And Of course, having unlimited SLA in conjucntion with any other class would be so.
Now you have a class that can basically turn invisible forever, fly forever, animate things forever all day everyday and people say that its balanced because A wizard can do it better and stronger?
That's the thing though. Kineticists arent wizards. Just in the same way that rogues aren't wizards, and gunslingers aren't wizards.
Wizards are wizards.
A rogue could use his high level stealth to move around unnoticed, but we dont say this is suboptimal because you can cast "Invisibility".
A Monk could use his ki powers to Jump 20 feet in the air to reach a ledge, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast levitate.
A gunslinger can reload and shoot a creature 20 feet away, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast magic missiles.
See a trend? these other classes have mundane/extraordinary ways to accomplish what wizards and other spell casters can do better, stronger, and faster, however what limits a wizard or sorcerer is how many times he do it a day, or what spells he has to prepare.
People who say that Kinetiscits lack power because they have a linear growth in skills and adaptability Do not see that while that is indeed true, it doesn't mean they can't do it well and for the most part ALL DAY.
I think wild talents that duplicate spells with zero burn are going to be pushing GMs, and modules to a very dangerous point.
Kineticists arent wizards. Just in the same way that rogues aren't wizards, and gunslingers aren't wizards.
Wizards are wizards.
A rogue could use his high level stealth to move around unnoticed, but we dont say this is suboptimal because you can cast "Invisibility".
A Monk could use his ki powers to Jump 20 feet in the air to reach a ledge, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast levitate.
I don't want to turn this into another caster-marital disparity thread, but some people do call those things suboptimal. They find in their games the rogue is worse than the wizard at stealth because invisibility is more effective than having stealth as a class skill. They find that a wizard is a lot better at getting around than the monk because the ability to fly beats jumping 20 feet. For their campaigns, the wizard's spells-per-day limitation isn't enough of a limit to balance those things out.
I don't want to turn this into another caster-marital disparity thread, but some people do call those things suboptimal. They find in their games the rogue is worse than the wizard at stealth because invisibility is more effective than having stealth as a class skill. They find that a wizard is a lot better at getting around than the monk because the ability to fly beats jumping 20 feet. For their campaigns, the wizard's spells-per-day limitation isn't enough of a limit to balance those things out.Kineticists arent wizards. Just in the same way that rogues aren't wizards, and gunslingers aren't wizards.
Wizards are wizards.
A rogue could use his high level stealth to move around unnoticed, but we dont say this is suboptimal because you can cast "Invisibility".
A Monk could use his ki powers to Jump 20 feet in the air to reach a ledge, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast levitate.
Well that only fuels my point a little bit.
This "Optimization" that people believe is, in part fueled not by just by "spell-per-day" but because magic makes these mundane actions Better.
A Kineticists has access to such abilities, and on top of that they do not have to worry about "per day" limits.
It is true that a Kintecists isn't going to create shelter, food, charm enemies, create extraplanar portals. It is very true that they do not have the wide array of spell sets as other spell casters, but they do have access to KEY spell like abilities, that while aren't specific in purpose, they are broad in application. Invisibility? 90% useful in most situations. Flight? 90% useful in most situations.
You people must be playing a completely different game from me. My aether kineticist is a blast (pardon the pun) to play. He's up there with my cleric or bloodrager.
Kineticists are no means "overpowered". They have very cool, niche abilities that initially appear to be overly amazing. At-will Fly and Invisibility are phenomenal abilities, no one is denying that aspect, but you cannot take only two abilities and say that a class is OP because of that.
However, compare that to the ability to literally stop time, or travel across the world in a blink, or travel to another plane, or create magically items, or... Shall I go on? Some people put too much stock in th and "at-will/all-day" premise of the kineticist. Here's the rub... Your most powerful attacks are limited by Burn, which has a daily cap by the way (4+Con mod), you cannot take anymore burn than that. Period.
And compare a single 4d6+whatever mods at 8h level to the two-handed fight doing 2d6+1.5 str mod+9(power attack)+2nweappn training with two separate attacks! While the kineticist gets one.
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A rogue could use his high level stealth to move around unnoticed, but we dont say this is suboptimal because you can cast "Invisibility".
A Monk could use his ki powers to Jump 20 feet in the air to reach a ledge, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast levitate.
A gunslinger can reload and shoot a creature 20 feet away, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast magic missiles....
We have multiple enormous threads saying these things.
Kineticists are no means "overpowered". They have very cool, niche abilities that initially appear to be overly amazing. At-will Fly and Invisibility are phenomenal abilities, no one is denying that aspect, but you cannot take only two abilities and say that a class is OP because of that.
However, compare that to the ability to literally stop time, or travel across the world in a blink, or travel to another plane, or create magically items, or... Shall I go on? Some people put too much stock in th and "at-will/all-day" premise of the kineticist. Here's the rub... Your most powerful attacks are limited by Burn, which has a daily cap by the way (4+Con mod), you cannot take anymore burn than that. Period.
And compare a single 4d6+whatever mods at 8h level to the two-handed fight doing 2d6+1.5 str mod+9(power attack)+2nweappn training with two separate attacks! While the kineticist gets one.
"you cannot take only two abilities and say that a class is OP because of that"
Numerically, two abilities could doesn't seem like anything out loud, except that as I Stated that invisibility and flight are relevant in most combat scenarios and even outside of battle.
"limited by Burn, which has a daily cap by the way (4+Con mod), you cannot take anymore burn than that."
And yes, we are all aware that, that is why they added the buffer mechanic, and gather power mechanic to allow higher burn attacks and abilities without killing yourself.
"And compare a single 4d6+whatever mods at 8h level to the two-handed fight doing 2d6+1.5 str mod+9(power attack)+2nweappn training with two separate attacks! While the kineticist gets one"
kintetiscits gets 1 attack that does 4d6+ whatever mods
and a fighter does two attacks that do 2d6 + whatever mods.
You just blew my mind. I did not know the power output of a kinetiscist paled to the output of a dedicated fighter!
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You just blew my mind. I did not know the power output of a kinetiscist paled to the output of a dedicated fighter!
Yes. That's one of the problems that the "Kineticists are OP" argument runs into. The Kineticist can't compare in steady-state DPR to a well-built fighter or barbarian (or paladin, or zen archer, or ....) and they can't compare in burst DPR to a magus or blastercaster wizard.
That said, they're far more flexible than a well-built fighter, and far less flexible than a magus or wizard.
Basically, if you want to stand there and kill things all day -- but do nothing else -- play a barbarian or a zen archer.
If you want to do Death Star levels of damage -- but you'll only get to fire the gun once in the movie -- play a wizard.
If you want somewhere in between, the kineticist isn't a bad choice, and it's got more staying power than most of the more caster focused classes like alchemist or inquisitor. But it's hardly overpowerd.
No one mentions that the GM let the other guy two weapon fight with Chainsaws, seems like he has some favoritism thing going, if he's b~~#@ing about the Kineticist and not the broken as s%&# fighter.
I GMed for a Telekineticist yesterday, and I'm sort of disappointed (for lack of a better word) in how they can break certain situations so easily. I'm not mad about it, just sort of sad about how some scenarios just can't handle having a Kineticist in the group. Yesterday the group had to cross a rickety bridge. The Kineticist made a rock float, they climbed on the rock and it ferried them across one by one. A 20-foot cliff, with people who all had terrible Strength. Floating rock carried them to the top. Lots of traps were disabled through a form of ranged Disable Device. A fluid leaked from the ceiling. Kineticist formed a cup out of pure aether to contain it.
Okay, other elements of Kineticists have more pure blasting power, but the utility made my cry in a corner. He removed any challenge from the adventure. He explained what powers he was using to do everything and I couldn't fault him for it. Some things were a bit on the creative side, so I gave him some leeway because of the rule of cool, but a lot of things are written vaguely enough that it can apply in a lot of situations.
You just blew my mind. I did not know the power output of a kinetiscist paled to the output of a dedicated fighter!
Yes. That's one of the problems that the "Kineticists are OP" argument runs into. The Kineticist can't compare in steady-state DPR to a well-built fighter or barbarian (or paladin, or zen archer, or ....) and they can't compare in burst DPR to a magus or blastercaster wizard.
That said, they're far more flexible than a well-built fighter, and far less flexible than a magus or wizard.
Basically, if you want to stand there and kill things all day -- but do nothing else -- play a barbarian or a zen archer.
If you want to do Death Star levels of damage -- but you'll only get to fire the gun once in the movie -- play a wizard.
If you want somewhere in between, the kineticist isn't a bad choice, and it's got more staying power than most of the more caster focused classes like alchemist or inquisitor. But it's hardly overpowerd.
Well, that is also without mentioning that by taking 2 burn a kinetiscist could at lv 8 instead do 8d6 damage + mods.
Kinetiscists can do a lot of damage.My last sentence was suppose to be sarcastic because 4d6 + mods is almost the same as 2 attacks that do 2d6 + mods.
Plus we also get into the territory that a fighter would have to target Normal AC, while Kinetiscits would have to target Touch in some instances.
Kineticists are no means "overpowered". They have very cool, niche abilities that initially appear to be overly amazing. At-will Fly and Invisibility are phenomenal abilities, no one is denying that aspect, but you cannot take only two abilities and say that a class is OP because of that.
However, compare that to the ability to literally stop time, or travel across the world in a blink, or travel to another plane, or create magically items, or... Shall I go on? Some people put too much stock in th and "at-will/all-day" premise of the kineticist. Here's the rub... Your most powerful attacks are limited by Burn, which has a daily cap by the way (4+Con mod), you cannot take anymore burn than that. Period.
And compare a single 4d6+whatever mods at 8h level to the two-handed fight doing 2d6+1.5 str mod+9(power attack)+2nweappn training with two separate attacks! While the kineticist gets one.
"you cannot take only two abilities and say that a class is OP because of that"
Numerically, two abilities could doesn't seem like anything out loud, except that as I Stated that invisibility and flight are relevant in most combat scenarios and even outside of battle.
"limited by Burn, which has a daily cap by the way (4+Con mod), you cannot take anymore burn than that."
And yes, we are all aware that, that is why they added the buffer mechanic, and gather power mechanic to allow higher burn attacks and abilities without killing yourself.
"And compare a single 4d6+whatever mods at 8h level to the two-handed fight doing 2d6+1.5 str mod+9(power attack)+2nweappn training with two separate attacks! While the kineticist gets one"
kintetiscits gets 1 attack that does 4d6+ whatever mods
and a fighter does two attacks that do 2d6 + whatever mods.
You just blew my mind. I did not know the power output of a kinetiscist paled to the output of a dedicated fighter!
Easy on the snark, Fernn. Invisibility and Flight are big game changers; I won't deny that, but these are things that any character in the game can get from items. Ring of Invisibility is a perfect example. The thing that balances out those big abilities are the other aspects of those elements. Aether for example is weak in offense compared to all the other elements. Same with Air, you can fly and attack from super far distances, but what happens when you're in a dungeon with 10' ceilings? Now that advantage is utterly gone. It's all about balance, that's might point. If you could get At-Will flight & invisibility and have the offensive power of Fire all together, then I would agree that it is overpowered. However, you do not. You could get flight and invisibility together as a kineticist at 10th level, but then everything else would be lacking. You have a lackluster composite blast and run-of-the-mill blasts.
No one mentions that the GM let the other guy two weapon fight with Chainsaws, seems like he has some favoritism thing going, if he's b$+@!ing about the Kineticist and not the broken as s~~% fighter.
Yeah, I figured that was pretty much self-explanatory and didn't want to touch on something so obvious. It is very clear there is serious favoritism going on there.
I assume these chainsaws are powered by magic and not by internal combustion engines. If I'm wrong, where did the gas to run 'em come from, and what he do when, and how long before, he runs out?
If I'm right, how does that work? No limitations?
Either way, where did he get these things in the first place?
Chainsaws in pathfinder run on batteries, I agree it's not ideal, nor a practical application for them, but whatever, combat chainsaws are just cool. :-)
Technology guide is where to find them, I'm running Iron Gods, my daughter is saving up for her own.
A variance of 18 to 28 damage with multiple hits is more desirable than a variance of 6 to 26 on one.While true, I think we can eke a bit more out of the kineticist.
We've got a 4d6+8 physical blast, so we're 7th level with 18 Con. That means we have Elemental Overflow +2, so at the cost of 21 points (3 burn) of nonhealable nonlethal damage (I like to think of it as my Feign Death zone), we get 4 more damage and a +2 size bonus boost to our Con and Dex. Now we're at 4d6+13, which is nifty. We could Maximize, but that just raises our floor and average without meaningfully affecting our ceiling, let's instead choose to Empower.
4d6+13 Empowered works out to 25 minimum, 55 maximum, with an average of 40.
Compare to our prior two hander martial who's batting for 2d6+16 across two hits, 34 minimum, 56 maximum, with an average of 46.So our comparative delta minimum is 9 points, our delta average is 6, and our delta maximum is 1, without taking into account to hit values.
That's actually fairly competitive, I think.
Okay, lets up the fighter then to the same floor. lv7 with a few feats.
Thats weapon training 1 for +1 damage, weapon spec +2 damage, power attack +9 damage, +2 weapon for +2 damage, and str 20thats 2d6+21 per hit, now we're looking at 46 min, 66 max, average of 56.
So our comparative delta minimum is 22 points, our delta average is 16, and our delta maximum is 10, without taking into account to hit values.
Also you're comparing it to not the best options for damage, but a baseline. And if the party ever has a haste the fighter goes up a whole extra attack, increasing all the values by 50%
Is the kineticists damage useless? No, but it's nothing grand either.
EDIT:did wrong level, fixed for correct lvl.
Compared to say, the Kineticist with 18 CON doing a 4d6+8 physical blast or a 4d6+2 energy blast. If your cold ray, for example, hits maximized, you are doing 18 damage.4d6+2 maximized = 26, not 18?
I mean, I generally agree with your stance (I find dpr to be reliant on the level breaks involved, with the note that equipment greatly favors the fighty type over the kineticist as there just simply isn't much available to the kineticist), but your math was a touch off there.
Also: Chainsaws are awesome and should be encouraged at every table. I really want to have a summoning focused character summon up something like a Hound Archon and hand a chainsaw with relevant proficiency granting ioun stone off to it with the instruction "Evil doers are over there, go have fun with it."
This message sponsored by the Chainsaws for Hound Archons Committee of 2016.
Yeah, I brain farted on the blast's max damage. That would be 26, not 18.
Still, the point stands. Static modifiers are far better for consistently doing a lot of damage, and the fighter (or any martial class, really) doesn't have to try very hard to get much better modifiers than the Kineticist gets, particularly since they have weapons they can enhance while the kineticist has...a diadem, I guess?
A variance of 18 to 28 damage with multiple hits is more desirable than a variance of 6 to 26 on one.
That's a Kineticist who's not really using his abilities to his best, though. At 7th level (What you need to be in order to get to 4d6 for an energy blast), They should be shoving a minimum of two burn into their elemental defense as a matter of course for their Elemental Overflow, which adds a further 4 damage and gives and extra +2 to hit all day. If they're water, they just nabbed themselves either a +7 armor bonus or a maxed-out +4 shield bonus in addition to this damage. The other energy blasts and their defenses are admittedly not much to write home about, but can still be situationally helpful when burn-buffed.
If they went for 3 burn at 7th level, then they get to up two of their physical stats by 2 each, meaning that in the smart cases, they're working with another +1 to hit and damage, and a 15% chance to negate crits as well (as well as other benefits). So, ummm... Yeah. Still not churning out as much damage as a fighter, but it's not bad for hitting touch AC without having to jump through Gunslinger hoops. So, using your base 18 CON guy, we wind up with 4d6+6.
But wait! There's more! With a simple move action, they can go ahead and empower this cold blast for free, doing a total of 1.5x(4d6+6), which leads to a max damage of 45. So, instead of the presentation you gave us, we have a variance of 18-28 damage on two/three(haste) hits (assuming both manage to, which is not a certain thing), vs. 15-45 on one.
EDIT: DAMN YOU NINJAS! Oh, and look at that. 8000 gp for a +2 Weapon. Let's slap our shiny Enhancement belt onto the Kineticist for a +2 to Con now. 1.5x(4d6+7) for damage now, which is minimum 16, maximum 46, average 31. Not bad for being able to do it for free to hit against touch AC, though it is still leagues behind the fighter. Still, just goes to show that Kineticist isn't shabby at all, especially if you decide to slap on some status effects instead of going for the damage.
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One path ends up with us spending hours arguing over stupid minutiae on an internet message board, the other involves us going and doing something fun or productive. I know which I'm choosing.
*looks around; makes sure that this is still the internet*
"The first one - right?"