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Monster summoner handbook: Versatile Summon Monster & Versatile Summon Nature's Ally. Feat allows a choice templates to be applied to the respective summoned creature spell. Of the template options, several grant elemental subtypes.
My question: does the template's subtype give the elemental subtype to the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally Spell?
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Yes.
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.
(I was expecting that to be much harder to answer and opened up like 3 documents to figure it out, and then it was just right there in summon monster.)
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A minor follow up. Does the spell descriptor generated by the template count when preparing the spell, or only when casting the spell?
Example, is that Elemental Master Arcanist Archetype, which requires more or less prepared slots for certain element spells.
And by extension, do you determine the template selected when preparing the spell, or when casting?
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A generous GM might let you prepare the spell in an elemental slot, with the understanding that because it was prepared in an elemental slot, it could only be used to summon creatures with that elemental subtype.
But expect table variation.
With that one, goes both ways, as they occupy more slots if of an opposed element. Since the Versatile summon grants two templates to choose from.
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In PFS which is supposed to be played RAW I cannot see how that would be allowed.
Because there is a reasonable interpretation that this might be intended as how it was supposed to work.
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources.
The rules do not say at what point the spell gains the descriptor and how that interacts with the elemental master's slot restrictions. Thus the GM is allowed to make reasonable interpretations. We are not, and are not supposed to be, video game engines. We are supposed to use our judgement.
Now if John or Tonya come out with a clarification, and say "No, it works this way and only this way" we can't contradict that, but until that happens, we have room to make our own decisions.
There is no one true RAW.
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With that one, goes both ways, as they occupy more slots if of an opposed element. Since the Versatile summon grants two templates to choose from.A generous GM might let you prepare the spell in an elemental slot, with the understanding that because it was prepared in an elemental slot, it could only be used to summon creatures with that elemental subtype.
But expect table variation.
Good point.
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A more reasonable interpretation:
If he spends a fire slot to memorize a summon, it can only be cast as a fire subtype summon.
If he spends a regular slot to memorize a summon, it can be cast as anything except a water subtype summon.
If he spends 2 regular slots to memorize a summon, it can be cast as anything.
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If he can memorize it as a two slot spell, why can't he memorize it as a partial slot spell.
If you want to give him the negative, you have to give him the positive too.
Right now you are saying he can memorize it as summoning everything for two slots, or he can memorize it for summoning everything but water for one. If he can exclude water, why can't he memorize it as excluding everything but fire. And before you say that the rules don't say you can, keep in mind that the rules don't say you can chose to use two spell slots to memorize a single casting of a non-opposition spell. So you have already accepted the premise that it is a reasonable rules interpretation to accept that he can adjust the number of spell slots to reduce or increase his options. Which is not "RAW"
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In order to cast a water summon he must specifically memorize the spell as a two slot spell. What is so hard?
What you are saying is that a PC can memorize a spell ahead of time, without applying any template, and get a benefit with the understanding that when cast he will apply some template that qualifies for that benefit. That isn't allowed. You're turning a prepared caster into a spontaneous one.
This would be analogous to allowing a prepared caster to prepare a spell a number of slots higher than its base and then choose which meta magic feats to apply when the spell is cast.
No, it is not. Because it already allows him to pick what template to apply at casting. This reduces his options. It doesn't increase them. And it certainly doesn't let him chose from multiple spells.
(By the way, this is an arcanist, so he is already a spontaneous caster.)
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A more reasonable interpretation:
If he spends a fire slot to memorize a summon, it can only be cast as a fire subtype summon.
If he spends a regular slot to memorize a summon, it can be cast as anything except a water subtype summon.
If he spends 2 regular slots to memorize a summon, it can be cast as anything.
Up to the DM, until FAQed. What you suggest is certainly a house rule (though reasonable).
As I read it, the way summon monster works has it only applying descriptors of the creature while it's being cast, not when prepared.
I have heard of house rules where players must choose the monster summoned when preparing, or even when learning the spell. Though in these cases, it's more for simplicity of gameplay, not to address the descriptor point.
The summon monster spell description is different when listed as being on the elementalist spell lists: summons elemental creature (to fight for you). The CRB says 'summons an extra planar creature'. Note also that summon monster I & summon monster III are not on the elemental wizard spell lists, because there are no elementals at those levels. To prepare a summon monster spell in the extra slot gained as a school, it must be prepared as a [fire] spell (supporting Jared's interpretation).
The versatile feats are a thrown wrench in that any creature with celestial or fiendish templates summoned can become elemental, but I would treat them as other meta-magic feats in the change comes at preparation if it will change number of slots, either in multiple slots or a free one.
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Jessex, this is the question we have been discussing.
A minor follow up. Does the spell descriptor generated by the template count when preparing the spell, or only when casting the spell?
Example, is that Elemental Master Arcanist Archetype, which requires more or less prepared slots for certain element spells.
And by extension, do you determine the template selected when preparing the spell, or when casting?
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What are you having trouble with? Or do you think examples completely change what a question means?Jessex, this is the question we have been discussing.
A minor follow up. Does the spell descriptor generated by the template count when preparing the spell, or only when casting the spell?
And by extension, do you determine the template selected when preparing the spell, or when casting?
The part in the middle that you cut out, where we are talking about how this relates to a arcanist.
You objected that we were turning a prepared caster into a spontaneous caster.
I pointed out that we are talking about an arcanist, who is already sort of both, and that in any case we are talking about further restricting his options at time of casting, not expanding them, so your arguement was invalid.
Since then you have repeatedly tried to strawman this telling me I don't understand the question.
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This discussion is pretty hard to solve definitively. For a spontaneous caster, it's easy to figure out that the change in the spell type can cause a spell to take up more slots.
The problem is that when a prepared caster prepares a spell that could change type to something that would take up more slots and then casts it as a two slot spell he is 'gaining' a slot.
Now, for the way I see this when you prepare a spell in one slot and an option in that spell would make it become a two slot spell then you can not use that option unless you prepare it in two slots.
Check the elemental wizard schools, you'll see the same spell on both school list and opposed list. This is what I use for evidence that it may be designed to work this way.
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The discussion is about whether any prepared caster who knows the versatile summons feats can prepare them in specialist slots or in fewer slots to take advantage of something that won't be determined till the spell is cast. Which no matter how you twist and turn is simply not allowed.
No, the discussion is if the type of slot a prepared caster uses limits what options he can chose when he casts the spell. The feat is actually largely irrelevant as the same problem occurs for resist energy with no feat. So lets take the feats out of it for a moment. The same problem applies to an elemental master arcanist who wants to prepare summon monster 2 and uses it summon an elemental.
You have already accepted that if a prepared caster who requires two slots to cast a spell with an elemental subtype prepares a spell like summon monster or resist energy in a single slot, he cannot cast it with any options that give it his opposition subtype.
In order to cast a water summon he must specifically memorize the spell as a two slot spell. What is so hard?
Note that there is nothing in the rules that allows a prepared caster to memorize a one slot spell as a two slot spell. So you have already conceded that A. the rules can be interpreted to allow him to use a flexible number of slots. B. that the number of slots he uses control what options he can pick.
If using one slot can limit his options, and if he can chose to use two slots, why can't he go the other direction and use his specialist slot, limiting his options further.
Yes, there is nothing saying he can use the specialist slot this way, but there is nothing saying he can use two slots to memorize the spell either.
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When you prepare a summon monster or nature all spell it has no elemental descriptor so it can never be prepared in a specialized slot. I really do not see what is so hard to get about this.
Yes, there is nothing saying he can use the specialist slot this way, but there is nothing saying he can use two slots to memorize the spell either.
When you prepare a summon monster or nature all spell it has no elemental descriptor so it can never be prepared in two slots. I really do not see why you think this is any different.