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Would a familiar whose master has ranks in linguistics gain new languages? Would they gain the same languages as their master?
In addition, does the master having ranks in a skill that is considered a class skill for the familiar (acrobatics, climb, etc) allow the familiar to gain the +3 bonus for having a rank in that skill?
Would a familiar whose master has ranks in linguistics gain new languages?
In my opinion: no. "Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language." That's the rule, and the Familiar didn't actually put any ranks into the skill.
In addition, does the master having ranks in a skill that is considered a class skill for the familiar (acrobatics, climb, etc) allow the familiar to gain the +3 bonus for having a rank in that skill?
Yes. After all: why else have Class Skills to begin with?
Those two statements kind of nullify each other, because if the Familiar didn't actually put points into the skill, it wouldn't get the +3.
But if it is considered to have put skill points in them, it would gain the new languages or at least comprehend them even if it can't speak them, we're talking about an int 6 animal after all.
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Would a familiar whose master has ranks in linguistics gain new languages? Would they gain the same languages as their master?
In addition, does the master having ranks in a skill that is considered a class skill for the familiar (acrobatics, climb, etc) allow the familiar to gain the +3 bonus for having a rank in that skill?
Yes, and yes.
The first one im not sure , i would rule that yes , BUT he would know exactly the same new languages the master got with his points since the ranks are "shared".
The second one yes.
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It's right there in the basic familiar rules of the prd:
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
So the familiar gets its master's *ranks* but not his *class skill bonus* because the familiar has its own list of class skills.
This text excerpt suggests the familiar gets only the ranks bonus, not any other bonus (such as gaining languages known), on the general principle that a given abilities gives only the bonuses it explicitly says it gives.
After all, a familiar's ability to communicate is strictly regimented by the listed abilities like "speak with master" and "speak with animals of its own kind".
Perhaps the master could share a spell like comprehend languages with his familiar.
After all, a familiar's ability to communicate is strictly regimented by the listed abilities like "speak with master" and "speak with animals of its own kind".
Still, not being able to speak is no limit to being able to understand.
I always thought they didn't get the extra +3, but I do think both sides are valid.
I will check a few statblocks and go by that for my games until this FAQ is taken care of. Yeah I know it might be a while.
I couldn't find any stats so I will go with "yes" based on the logic that they are treating the ranks as their own, and if they didn't want to give the familiar the +3 they could have given the familiar a bonus that is equivalent to the number of ranks the master had.
I go with gaining the languages the master gained, but not being able to speak them unless they can already speak normally. [I.e. not a supernatural ability to speak a language that some get, but rather certain improved familiars have their own language could use the new languages.]
The familiar uses its own modifiers, which include the modifier of being a class skill. If it is a class skill for the familiar then it gets a +3. If it is not, but a class skill of the master, no +3.
/cevah
I think familiar's skill rank function the same way of their "Type" and "HD".
...I mean, they are Animal but are considered Magical Beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. So they not gain Magical Beast type features listed on Bestiary. The same for HD. They use Master HD only for effect that involve the number of HD but they still have the original HD of the animal used as familiar. In the same way familiars may use the best skill rank between them and their master:
"For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, USE either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better." USE not PUT and not GAIN. THEN..."Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following." SO i think that familiars can obtain Language only with Int mod improvement. And this makes sense because are Animal with unnatural Intelligence so they can speak.
The only thing i don't like is the difficulty to keep notice of all that: are Animal but Magical Beast only for effects, they have their HD but use HD of their master for effects and the skills are even more complicate. Perhaps not the best and clear Rule mechanics we could have.
And i quote Cevah for:
The familiar uses its own modifiers, which include the modifier of being a class skill. If it is a class skill for the familiar then it gets a +3. If it is not, but a class skill of the master, no +3.
Anyway i will appreciate if this gonna be a FAQ.
Sorry in advance if I made some mistakes with my english. I am Italian.
I go with gaining the languages the master gained, but not being able to speak them unless they can already speak normally. [I.e. not a supernatural ability to speak a language that some get, but rather certain improved familiars have their own language could use the new languages.]
The familiar uses its own modifiers, which include the modifier of being a class skill. If it is a class skill for the familiar then it gets a +3. If it is not, but a class skill of the master, no +3.
/cevah
I think this is a very sensible approach. For roleplaying, having the familiar learn the language that the master has been practicing has the most versimitude. For rules mechanics, we can view the language as attached to that skill rank, so copying the skill rank copies the language.
A familiar should have a method of learning a new language if the master moves to an area that has another language. On the other hand, the master learning one language and the familiar learning another language for each skill rank could be abused, such as a wizard and his familiar learning all four elemental languages between the pair for just two skill points.
I also agree on the class skills. The familiar uses its own modifiers, and class skill is a kind of modifier, like an attribute bonus or a size-based modifier.
I want to focalize attention on Core Rulebook pag. 102 about Linguistic:
"Special: You must be trained to use this skill etc.." So without any ranks in Language is impossible to use Linguistic and all the benefits it grants.
I think that the point is: Familiar use the skill rank possessed by their Master or effectively put a rank in such skills?. I agree on that with all up here like VRMH and Wheldrake.
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Looking at familiar stat blocks in various APs, they consistently get the +3 bonus on class skills even when the skill ranks are 'transferred' from their master... resulting in weirdness like snakes and goats with better Fly skill bonuses than their masters.
In all instances where masters had ranks in Linguistics it was not listed in the familiar skill section at all. Nor did the familiars receive any additional languages. I'd take this to mean that the people developing the stat blocks did not believe the familiars were capable of using the Linguistics skill. This is consistent with Paizo's general guidelines that animals with exceptional intelligence still do not generally understand language. That said, there were only a few cases like this.
Looking at familiar stat blocks in various APs, they consistently get the +3 bonus on class skills even when the skill ranks are 'transferred' from their master... resulting in weirdness like snakes and goats with better Fly skill bonuses than their masters.
Can you tell me wich Adventure Path are you reffer? I have some of them, but AP aren't using the OGL 3.5 rules set? Maybe you mean the most recent AP release.
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Looking at familiar stat blocks in various APs, they consistently get the +3 bonus on class skills even when the skill ranks are 'transferred' from their master... resulting in weirdness like snakes and goats with better Fly skill bonuses than their masters.Can you tell me wich Adventure Path are you reffer? I have some of them, but AP aren't using the OGL 3.5 rules set? Maybe you mean the most recent AP release.
There are several in the APs using the Pathfinder ruleset.
For example, Moto the sea snake in AP 56, Valstoi the goat in AP 67, or Zazu the greensting scorpion in AP 79.
Thanks a lot! :)
Would a familiar whose master has ranks in linguistics gain new languages? Would they gain the same languages as their master?
In addition, does the master having ranks in a skill that is considered a class skill for the familiar (acrobatics, climb, etc) allow the familiar to gain the +3 bonus for having a rank in that skill?
I clicked the FAQ, but I'm pretty sure the answers will be No to languages and Yes to +3. Although in my own games, I'd probably side with Yes to languages as well. I really find the idea, that a magically intelligent animal can't understand language, to be silly and strangely unrealistic.
Looking at familiar stat blocks in various APs, they consistently get the +3 bonus on class skills even when the skill ranks are 'transferred' from their master... resulting in weirdness like snakes and goats with better Fly skill bonuses than their masters.
I have looked up for Moto the sea snake in AP 56. Look on Bluff and Intimidate skill for example!
Moto have Charisma 2, than modifier=-4. Calculating skills point of Isabella “Inkskin” Locke (Moto's Master) i notice that she put 3 skill rank in Bluff and 3 skill rank in Intimidate. Isabella is a Sorcerer (Bluff and Intimidate are class skills for sorcerer).
Moto have Bluff=-1=-4(Charisma 2)+3(skill rank spent by Isabella). And the same is for Intimidate.
IF +3 bonus on class skills had been applied Moto would have:
Bluff=+2=-4(Charisma 2)+3(skill rank spent by Isabella)+3 bonus on class skill of Isabella. But is not like this.
So if all is correct i can say (thanks to you) this:
1)+3 bonus on class skills are not applied properly because skill point are only "transferred" from their master(i supposed that from the beginning).The familiar uses its own modifiers, which include the modifier of being a class skill. If it is a class skill for the familiar then it gets a +3. If it is not, but a class skill of the master, no +3
2)Linguistic cannot be transferred on familiar because they are animal and cannot speak even with high scores of Int.
The only thing the familliar mechanic ACTUALLY SAYS on the subject is that it gets the master's ranks.... not class skill bonuses, and certainly not the master's intelligence bonuses, nor any special effects from getting the ranks.
So it gets the master's ranks and the appropriate modifier from the familiar's own ability scores and that's it.
2)Linguistic cannot be transferred on familiar because they are animal and cannot speak even with high scores of Int.Familiars are only animals for a small set of things.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
So as a magical beast, it could learn languages just fine. It still doesn't naturally have the ability to speak them though.
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1)+3 bonus on class skills are not applied properly because skill point are only "transferred" from their master(i supposed that from the beginning).The familiar uses its own modifiers, which include the modifier of being a class skill. If it is a class skill for the familiar then it gets a +3. If it is not, but a class skill of the master, no +3
Right. My understanding was always that they got the greater of their own and master's ranks in each skill, their own stat mod, and +3 bonuses to their own class skills regardless of whether ranks were their own or the master's. The stat blocks seem to confirm all of that.
2)Linguistic cannot be transferred on familiar because they are animal and cannot speak even with high scores of Int.
I would add the caveat that the sample size (i.e. familiar stat blocks where the master has linguistics) is small enough that this conclusion could be erroneous or incomplete. Maybe the authors just left linguistics off because the familiar couldn't speak... or the results could be different for a familiar like a thrush that CAN speak.
2)Linguistic cannot be transferred on familiar because they are animal and cannot speak even with high scores of Int.Familiars are only animals for a small set of things.]It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.So as a magical beast, it could learn languages just fine. It still doesn't naturally have the ability to speak them though.
There is however no provision for the familliar having the ability to improve itself outside of it's master gaining levels. It does not get skill ranks so it can't learn new skills, nor new langauges.
The only thing the familliar mechanic ACTUALLY SAYS on the subject is that it gets the master's ranks.... not class skill bonuses, and certainly not the master's intelligence bonuses, nor any special effects from getting the ranks.
So it gets the master's ranks and the appropriate modifier from the familiar's own ability scores and that's it.
I agree on all.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
Don't confuse speaking and knowing. Someone (or something with Int > 2) that can't speak can still learn languages just fine. It's very useful for understanding what others are saying.
I would add the caveat that the sample size (i.e. familiar stat blocks where the master has linguistics) is small enough that this conclusion could be erroneous or incomplete. Maybe the authors just left linguistics off because the familiar couldn't speak... or the results could be different for a familiar like a thrush that CAN speak.
I think that thrush and ravens are the only that can speak.
The familiar of the half-orc witch can gain ranks in linguistics.
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
And learning a language is an effect that depends on its type.
Familliars can not get class bonuses to skills... because they have no class levels, Nor any real hit dice to gain them. They have effective hit dice for purposes of saving throws and spells that have a HD limit of effectiveness... that's all.
Why would they need class levels to have class skills?
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
If they couldn't get the +3 that statement would be utterly pointless.
Heck, non-familiar animals have that list of class skills too; check the Bestiary.
Why would they need class levels to have class skills?
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.If they couldn't get the +3 that statement would be utterly pointless.
Heck, non-familiar animals have that list of class skills too; check the Bestiary.
I think Drahliana means familiar cannot get class bonus to skills obtained by their master. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception,
Stealth, and Swim as class skills. (Core Rulebook 83)
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.And learning a language is an effect that depends on its type.
I don't think that learning a language is an effect. And i cannot understand how a familiar can learn a language if don't put ranks in linguistic but obtain ranks by their master via transferring.
I don't say you are not right i simply cannot understand how. A FAQ can clarify all.
Anyway look at Adventure Path 56 if you can. For now is the only official material that prove something for real and not for supposition and interpretation. Moto the familiar of that AP have not Linguistic nor Language but Master have linguistic. The only language this familiar have are:speak with master, speak with reptiles.
Why would they need class levels to have class skills?
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.If they couldn't get the +3 that statement would be utterly pointless.
Heck, non-familiar animals have that list of class skills too; check the Bestiary.
I think Drahliana means familiar cannot get class bonus to skills obtained by their master. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception,
Stealth, and Swim as class skills. (Core Rulebook 83)
Correct, they get class skill according to their bestiary entries and what they gain as familliars, but they do not gain class skill bonuses because they do not gain class levels.
Why would they need class levels to have class skills?
Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.If they couldn't get the +3 that statement would be utterly pointless.
Heck, non-familiar animals have that list of class skills too; check the Bestiary.
I think Drahliana means familiar cannot get class bonus to skills obtained by their master. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception,
Stealth, and Swim as class skills. (Core Rulebook 83)
Correct, they get skill bonuses according to their bestiary entries and what they gain as familiars, but they do not gain class skill bonuses because they do not gain class levels.
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Correct, they get class skill according to their bestiary entries and what they gain as familliars, but they do not gain class skill bonuses because they do not gain class levels.
There are numerous examples to the contrary;
AP 56 Moto pg 36: Fly 15 (5 ranks from master + 3 dex + 4 size + 3 class skill), Swim 15 (9 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill)
AP 67 Valstoi pg 58: Fly 9 (3 ranks from master + 1 dex + 2 size + 3 class skill)
AP 79 Zazu pg 52: Acrobatics 8 (2 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill)
Et cetera.
Correct, they get class skill according to their bestiary entries and what they gain as familliars, but they do not gain class skill bonuses because they do not gain class levels.There are numerous examples to the contrary;
AP 56 Moto pg 36: Fly 15 (5 ranks from master + 3 dex + 4 size + 3 class skill), Swim 15 (9 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill)
AP 67 Valstoi pg 58: Fly 9 (3 ranks from master + 1 dex + 2 size + 3 class skill)
AP 79 Zazu pg 52: Acrobatics 8 (2 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill)
Et cetera.
Those are all skill bonus derived from being a familliar and bestiary qualities. They have nothing to do with class.
There are numerous examples to the contrary;
AP 56 Moto pg 36: Fly 15 (5 ranks from master + 3 dex + 4 size + 3 class skill), Swim 15 (9 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill)
You enlightened me showing me the way, don't lose yourself:
First of all:Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
AP 56 Moto pg 36:
Bluff +1 (-4 from Charisma 2 + 3 ranks from master);
Fly +15 (5 ranks from master + 3 dex + 4 size + 3 class skill from familiar class skill list);
Intimidate +1 (-4 from Charisma 2 + 3 ranks from master);
Swim +15 (+8 from having a swim speed+ 1 ranks from master + 3 dex + 3 class skill from familiar class skill list)
Master have Swim +14(+8 from having a swim speed too +1 rank+3 from sorcerer class skill + 2 from strength);
Profession Sailor +8 (+1 from wisdom+7 ranks from master)
Master have Profession Sailor +12(+7 ranks-1 from Wisdom+ 3 of class skill, + 3 from skill focus feat)
Perception +9 (+1 from 1 and the unic skill rank a viper have+4 racial mod+1from wisdom+3from familiar class skill list)(like on bestiary);
Stealth + 15 (+4 racial mod+ 3 from Dexterity+8 from size)(like on Bestiary).
Master have 18 skill points if i don't forgot anithing it's all right.
I haven't look at the other AP familiar listed by you but i think it's properly like this.