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Clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests automatically get proficiency with their deity's favored weapon. Why not paladins?
Probably because they're proficient with all martial weapons, and the idea of a LG deity with an exotic weapon as its favored weapon didn't occur to the writers of the Core Rulebook at the time. But such deities do exist, so I'd like to ask for this to be added as a campaign specific "house rule" in Pathfinder Society.
Clerics of Irori get Improved Unarmed Strike for free, so it only makes sense that paladins of Irori would, too. And Shizuru, who is a LG leader among the Tien gods, has katana as her favored weapon, so you'd think her paladins would be able to wield them.
For now, my paladin of Shizuru just uses the katana two handed, which makes it martial. But being able to carry a shield on occasions when I want to be tankier, and wield the katana one handed, would be a nice option to have.
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Aren't paladins one of the classes that do not actually have to worship a deity to function?
In PFS play, they need to worship a deity. I think it's in the FAQ.
It is in the guide, p. 10.
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are the exception to this rule. The list is not exhaustive, and divine spellcasters of any future classes whose sources are added as additional resources will be required to choose a deity unless otherwise specified. Otherwise, characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
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Aren't paladins one of the classes that do not actually have to worship a deity to function?In PFS play, they need to worship a deity. I think it's in the FAQ.
It's in the Guide to Organized Play.
It wasn't at first. I think it was season 4 or 5 when that rule was added. I have a friend who got to level 14 with a paladin of Aroden (not a legal deity in PFS play) before that rule was added.
It makes sense for Golarion, though I can understand why the core rules don't require that. But the same core rules don't require clerics to have a deity, while still giving them proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, if they have one.
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Probably because they're proficient with all martial weapons, and the idea of a LG deity with an exotic weapon as its favored weapon didn't occur to the writers of the Core Rulebook at the time.
The PF paladin inherited the proficiencies of the 3.5 paladin. I think that's why.
FWIW, I support this petition.
Meanwhile, I suggest a dip into another class that grants the proficiency. For example, a paladin of Irori can dip one level of unchained monk. It is a pretty good dip. Cleric or warpriest are less good because of the 3/4 BAB. At least warpriest gets Weapon Focus to partially compensate.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I Agree with Fromper. For PFS, since a paladin must select a deity then they should also get the favored weapon for free.
I have been looking to make a paladin that uses a bastard sword and shield. Only way to do that is to take dip in cleric to get favored weapon, be half-elf and take an alternate racial trait, or take exotic weapon proficiency.
Unless there is a way that I have not found yet.
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I have been looking to make a paladin that uses a bastard sword and shield. Only way to do that is to take dip in cleric to get favored weapon, be half-elf and take an alternate racial trait, or take exotic weapon proficiency.
Unless there is a way that I have not found yet.
Play a Tengu?
Tengus are trained from birth in swordplay, and as a result are automatically proficient with sword-like weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have been looking to make a paladin that uses a bastard sword and shield. Only way to do that is to take dip in cleric to get favored weapon, be half-elf and take an alternate racial trait, or take exotic weapon proficiency.
Unless there is a way that I have not found yet.
Play a Tengu?
Tengus are trained from birth in swordplay, and as a result are automatically proficient with sword-like weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).Message post: Tengu Swordtrained vs. Bastard Sword
Cool 4 options now! Is that proficiency to use as martial or as exotic?
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I do not support this proposal. A free weapon proficiency is not a class feature of the Paladin, nor is using the deity's favored weapon a requirement. I do not believe it is the place of PFS to be adding feats or class features to classes as that could bend the balance as designed.
PFS house rules should be held to three things:
1) things that have to be changed to work with other house rules of organized play. Such as replacement feats for class granted crafting feats.
2) clarifications where a rule doesn't exist, such as read lips for deaf oracles. I'd like to see a campaign rule for how to deal with locations for mediums.
3) clarifications where things are ambiguous and an FAQ is unlikely.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Andrew,
It is also not a feature of the Paladin to have to choose a deity. But it is a PFS house rule.
How does having a Paladin choose a deity fit into one of the three things listed by you?
It is logical to add the extra weapon proficiency since an additional requirement is being placed on the Paladin to choose a deity. The paladin should have some benefit related to that cost.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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My Paladin uses an Exotic weapon, and only because of that cracked Ioun Stone. Seriously, 1500gp for a feat is the best you're ever going to find.
It is not a viable option for a Core Paladin. Not that I am thinking of a Core Paladin at this time anyways.
But I agree, very much cheaper than a feat!
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It doesn't matter whether you have to pick a deity or not. Not picking a deity doesn't grant you extra proficiencies, so why should picking one?
And the Paladin and Cleric requiring a deity is more a function of the campaign setting, not so much the campaign.
Picking a deity does grant an extra proficiency if you're a cleric, inquisitor, or warpriest. Why not a paladin?
In the case of Shizuru, the current rule really stands out as nonsensical, from a campaign perspective. You have a lawful good goddess of swordplay whose paladins aren't trained with her favorite type of sword.
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I do not support this proposal. A free weapon proficiency is not a class feature of the Paladin, nor is using the deity's favored weapon a requirement. I do not believe it is the place of PFS to be adding feats or class features to classes as that could bend the balance as designed.
PFS house rules should be held to three things:
1) things that have to be changed to work with other house rules of organized play. Such as replacement feats for class granted crafting feats.
2) clarifications where a rule doesn't exist, such as read lips for deaf oracles. I'd like to see a campaign rule for how to deal with locations for mediums.
3) clarifications where things are ambiguous and an FAQ is unlikely.
Which one of those three options does "Clerics of Irori get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat" fall under? Basically, this is asking the same.
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I agree with the flavor basis of this proposal and don't think it's unbalanced, but I don't agree with the method of implementation.
I have to say that I'd rather this not be a PFS house rule and instead be a developer change to the paladin class in the core rulebook. Clerics don't have to worship a deity from the core rulebook (they can follow ideals instead), but they still have a feature that allows them to use a deity's weapon. Don't see how this is much different.
(It's not the only change I wish of the core rulebook...I wish the duelist precise strike verbiage would match the swashbuckler's verbiage so that it isn't a terrible ability that doesn't work on undead, and that it would finally say in the book that it is, in fact, precision damage. :p)
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I would be against this, as it encourages deity fishing for your weapon of choice, instead of choosing a deity who's faith is interesting.
It certainly wouldn't be worse than the way people choose deities based on their domains and favored weapons for clerics, warpriest, and inquisitors. And if someone wants to choose a deity for mechanical reasons, rather than plot reasons, that's their business. Everyone has their own reasons for playing certain types of characters, and you shouldn't be calling badwrongfun if their reasons aren't the same as yours.
But this really wouldn't be that big a change. Paladins of 95% of deities would gain absolutely nothing from this, since they're already proficient with the favored weapons of their gods.
There are maybe 3 or 4 PFS legal deities that have exotic favored weapons and are the proper alignments to have paladins. And in the case of Irori and Shizuru, the favored weapon is truly essential to the deity, so it doesn't make sense that their paladins don't already have this.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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But it is a PFS house rule.
It isn't a house rule. It is a part of the Golarion setting, which PFS is set in.
Now when an archetype adds a feature to a class it's swapped out for something else. What do you want a paladin to give up to get their deity's favored weapon? Because the PFS campaign shouldn't be giving out extra class features to one particular class for free.
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You want proficiency in an exotic weapon? Spend the feat. You've got +1 BAB at first level, so you're good to go. If you're Human you have an extra feat to spare.
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I would agree with the 'feat tax' crowd, except for the fact that it is a stricture that is being placed on a character by the campaign rules.
As a result, it should be factored in said campaign rules, as it is not a CORE rulebook assumption, but rather a PFS/Golarion assumption.
Paladins already have it rough with what would seem a good half the GMs out there attempting to make them fall for breaking wind in a public place, can't they get at least one break?
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Paladins already have it rough with what would seem a good half the GMs out there attempting to make them fall for breaking wind in a public place, can't they get at least one break?
I know that is a popular preconception (Woo, paladins, alignment, drink, etc.) but how many people have actually seen the stereotypical GM out to make paladins fall? I mean, in actual face-to-face games and not just conversations on the boards.
I've played a paladin from 1 to 14 and haven't ever really felt in danger of falling (well, there was this one time in Rachikan...) and this is having played with a handful of different GM's, locally and at conventions. I've got another paladin started up and at level three currently and am still not having a problem with it.
So, how common is paladin prejudice actually?
As an attempt to stay somewhat on topic, I don't support the idea of giving the paladin free proficiency in their deity's favored weapon. I think we'd start getting a lot more paladins worshipping specific deities for strictly mechanical reasons ("Who's your deity?" "Meh, whichever one it is that lets me use [insert weapon here].", which is something I'm not in favor of.* It seems like we'd get even more paladins of Ragathiel than we already do, as well as a surge in paladins of Shizuru.
*I recognize that this is only my opinion and if you disagree with it or feel differently, that's okay, to each their own. But that's how I feel.
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I also would not be in favor of granting Paladins any additional free abilities. Clerics gaining proficiency with their deity's favored weapon is part of the class. Paladins have no such ability and shouldn't have it in PFS as a result. Adding features to classes for flavor sake is entirely different than clarifying existing rules.
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Deities this would impact: Irori (IUS), Shizuru (Katana), Imbrex (Dire Flail), Korada (IUS), Lythertida (IUS), Ragathiel (Bastard Sword)...maybe some more Tien deities that I don't have source material handy for in Hero Lab.
In looking up the list, I'm compelled to be against this idea. Paladins already have a lot of great weapon choices from their full martial proficiency and it's completely legit to say "Go take EWP if you want your katana."
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I would agree with the 'feat tax' crowd, except for the fact that it is a stricture that is being placed on a character by the campaign rules.As a result, it should be factored in said campaign rules, as it is not a CORE rulebook assumption, but rather a PFS/Golarion assumption.
Paladins already have it rough with what would seem a good half the GMs out there attempting to make them fall for breaking wind in a public place, can't they get at least one break?
Paladins aren't required to use thier deity's favored weapon. I agree, the concept is cool. I like to do the same with my paladins. But it isnt required.
Since it isn't required, there is no feat tax because of the requirement to have a deity. That's false logic. It's a choice. And sometimes choices carry a cost. Just like any other class that wants an exotic weapon where it isn't granted as a class feature.
The feat tax isn't for being a paladin. The feat tax is to use a specific weapon that you find cooler than others. And that's working exactly as it should.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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But it is a PFS house rule.It isn't a house rule. It is a part of the Golarion setting, which PFS is set in.
Cutting a hair here I think. Since the rule in PFS is that the setting is Golarion that in fact makes it a "house rule" for PFS.
Now when an archetype adds a feature to a class it's swapped out for something else. What do you want a paladin to give up to get their deity's favored weapon? Because the PFS campaign shouldn't be giving out extra class features to one particular class for free.
I agree that the PFS campaign shouldn't give out extra class features unless there is good reason. I see this as a good reason since the PFS campaign added the burden of HAVING to pick a deity.
To repeat my earlier comment:
It is logical to add the extra weapon proficiency since an additional requirement is being placed on the Paladin to choose a deity. The paladin should have some benefit related to that cost.
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This change goes beyond PFS's jurisdiction - it's a design element of the rules. Giving out free feats to classes "because it would be cool" is not something PFS does, or should do. So, I'm against any PFS clarification/house rule/change that allows this.
I think there is an argument for the core rules to change this, though - if it had been included from the start, no one would question it or say it was overpowered. Deity-fishing happens in every other class, be it for weapon proficiency or religion trait or whatever. But it needs to be Core Rulebook errata, and not a PFS change.
I would agree with the 'feat tax' crowd, except for the fact that it is a stricture that is being placed on a character by the campaign rules.As a result, it should be factored in said campaign rules, as it is not a CORE rulebook assumption, but rather a PFS/Golarion assumption.
Paladins already have it rough with what would seem a good half the GMs out there attempting to make them fall for breaking wind in a public place, can't they get at least one break?
Paladins aren't required to use thier deity's favored weapon. I agree, the concept is cool. I like to do the same with my paladins. But it isnt required.
Since it isn't required, there is no feat tax because of the requirement to have a deity. That's false logic. It's a choice. And sometimes choices carry a cost. Just like any other class that wants an exotic weapon where it isn't granted as a class feature.
The feat tax isn't for being a paladin. The feat tax is to use a specific weapon that you find cooler than others. And that's working exactly as it should.
I agree completely. While using the favored weapon of a deity is thematically cool, it is not something a paladin requires, any more than my 'grim reaper' themed inquisitor wielding a scythe is required. If it's something important to your character concept, then you get it with a feat.
The only time I could see this being considered a 'feat tax' is with the Weapon of the Chosen feats (which mimic the paladins Divine Bond anyway,) the feat Guided Hand (which allows you to make attacks with what is often used as a paladins dumpstat,) and the feat Crusader's Flurry (which requires you to have the flurry of blows class feature as well so a class dip tax.) There are no other feats that specifically require a generic 'your deity's favored weapon'.