Hey guys, I'll start by saying I'm relatively new to table top RPG's. I'm currently working on a Brawler build for PFS and was curious about a couple things as I went through, can't really remember them all at the moment but the one thing that sticks out however is that I was reading about Brawler builds and found that I would prefer to use my unarmed strike over weapons and see how it plays out for me since in most games I tend to go for range.
So my question is, that in the build I was reading, for the purpose of my playstyle with this character I read that improved unarmed strike can be very effective and it scales well. But it also mentioned that as back up, you might want something along the lines of Cestus. I was just wondering if the cestus work in conjunction with your improved unarmed strike, or if you can have those equipped and choose to use that instead of your unarmed strike, and if that's the case, why/when would you do that since at 1st lvl you do 1d6 unarmed and the cestus is 1d4.
Hope I worded that correctly, thanks in advance guys. If there were any other question I had I'll post them hear, hopefully these are some common question that newbs such as myself would have but generally wouldn't want to ask.
You can switch back and forth between them, the reason to have a cestus is to have an enchanted weapon...
Brawler could have a pair of cestus and still attack unarmed (kick, headbutt etc).
Basically, stick to unarmed, it's pretty good.
Get an Amulet of Mighty Fists to increase your hit/damage bonus (and count as a magic weapon to bypass damage reduction).
As a Brawler, you have two major build options:
- Stick with Unarmed Strike, get an Amulet of Mighty Fists to increase your accuracy/damage (note that the Amulet of Mighty Fists is more expensive than a magic weapon, but not by a lot), and get Pummeling Style/Charge to get a lot of mobility. This is a good option.
- Get a Cestus. It's cheaper to enchant than the Unarmed Strike, deals Bludgeoning or Piercing damage (options are good), and has a MUCH better critical range than an Unarmed Strike (19-20 instead of 20). Plus, it will eventually scale with Close Weapon Mastery. Then, pick up Outslug Style/Lunge/Outslug Weave/Outslug Sprint to gain a lot of mobility. This is another good option.
Go either way and you can't go wrong.
If you have a Cestus, though, you might as well have a Morning Star. Maybe also do some Shield Bashing, get some armor spikes. My point is, once you are using a weapon, you are using a weapon. You can still make Unarmed Strikes normally regardless of the weapon you are using, so use any weapon(s) you want.
Consider a dip in Ranger, and get wands of Magic Fang, Lead Blades (But It can be argued that that won't work on Unarmed Strikes.) Strong Jaw, and Versatile Weapon.
Ok, thanks for the tips guys, glad you could clear that up. What do you think about maybe taking a Heavy Steel shield at 1st lvl, to get the +2 to ac but take the -2 to attack rolls, and the check penalties to Str and Dex.
STR - 18
DEX - 14
You don't get any penalty to attack rolls for using a Heavy Steel Shield. The only problem with a Heavy Shield is that your hand is occupied for the purpose of grappling. If you don't plan to grapple, it's perfectly fine.
EDIT: Maybe you haven't seen the errata, but Brawlers are now perfectly proficient with shields and can use them with their AC Bonus.
Quote: If you have a Cestus, though, you might as well have a Morning Star. Maybe also do some Shield Bashing, get some armor spikes. My point is, once you are using a weapon, you are using a weapon. You can still make Unarmed Strikes normally regardless of the weapon you are using, so use any weapon(s) you want. This is terrible advice for a Brawler. They can't use morningstars with Brawler's Flurry.
You are correct, I hadn't seen the errata, just took a scan through it though and that's good to know, thanks for that.
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If you go unarmed focused, get brawling armor of some sort as soon as you can. It stacks with the amulet of mighty fists' bonus to attack and damage, but it's a way cheaper way to get a +2 bonus.
Protoman wrote: If you go unarmed focused, get brawling armor of some sort as soon as you can. It stacks with the amulet of mighty fists' bonus to attack and damage, but it's a way cheaper way to get a +2 bonus. +1 was going to add that.
The real question is:
- Pummeling Style and good base damage (unarmed dice + brawling + amulet)
OR
- Outslug Style, good critical range, cheaper enchantments, piercing option for damage
I think it's close enough to work for both.
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Things I recommend for unarmed fighting as a brawler:
-Adamantine +1 weapon: Cestus is nice because it leaves your hands open!
-The Brawling armor enchantment: Increases unarmed damage and hit bonus by +2, as well as +2 to grappling CMB! That hit bonus also increases your unarmed disarm, trip, and sunder attempts too, which is pretty awesome.
-Deliquescent gloves: for later on. Avoid the nasty parts of fighting Oozes and add 1d6 acid damage to your attacks.
-Ammy of Mighty Fists: I like Holy because I primarily play in Society play, but adjust for whatever you're coming across. Use it only for weapon enhancements like flaming, holy, and other similar things.
-Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes: for a straight enchantment bonus. You won't be able to apply it to all your attacks, but adding +2 or +3 to your offhand attacks really increases the odds they'll hit.
-Weapon Focus (unarmed strike): you get a lot of attacks, this'll pay off.
-(OPTIONAL) Weapon Specialization: I chose to go for it because you're throwing out a lot of attacks at a high attack bonus, so you might as well maximize your output
-Power Attack: To attack with power. It might not get the 1.5x multiplier, but if you're hitting 4 times a round that +6 damage a hit comes out as +24 damage a round...
-Cracked pale green prism ioun stone: 4k for a +1 to your attacks and to your CMB!
At level 10 my brawler has a +21/+16 full attack, +19/+19/+14/+14, flurry, and +16/+16/+11/+11 flurry/power attack. The latter averages 33 damage a hit vs. evil.
Aren't there various gauntlets for changing the type of damage you do with unarmed, meaning you don't need other weapons to get the benefit of other damage types?
Divvox2 wrote: Things I recommend for unarmed fighting as a brawler:
-Adamantine +1 weapon: Cestus is nice because it leaves your hands open!
-The Brawling armor enchantment: Increases unarmed damage and hit bonus by +2, as well as +2 to grappling CMB! That hit bonus also increases your unarmed disarm, trip, and sunder attempts too, which is pretty awesome.
-Deliquescent gloves: for later on. Avoid the nasty parts of fighting Oozes and add 1d6 acid damage to your attacks.
-Ammy of Mighty Fists: I like Holy because I primarily play in Society play, but adjust for whatever you're coming across. Use it only for weapon enhancements like flaming, holy, and other similar things.
-Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes: for a straight enchantment bonus. You won't be able to apply it to all your attacks, but adding +2 or +3 to your offhand attacks really increases the odds they'll hit.
-Weapon Focus (unarmed strike): you get a lot of attacks, this'll pay off.
-(OPTIONAL) Weapon Specialization: I chose to go for it because you're throwing out a lot of attacks at a high attack bonus, so you might as well maximize your output
-Power Attack: To attack with power. It might not get the 1.5x multiplier, but if you're hitting 4 times a round that +6 damage a hit comes out as +24 damage a round...
-Cracked pale green prism ioun stone: 4k for a +1 to your attacks and to your CMB!
At level 10 my brawler has a +21/+16 full attack, +19/+19/+14/+14, flurry, and +16/+16/+11/+11 flurry/power attack. The latter averages 33 damage a hit vs. evil.
Thanks Divvox2, a lot of good information there. Do you think Weapon focus should be taken sooner rather than later? I had intended to take Improved Grapple as my first feat at lvl 2 because I intend to use it quite often and it would save me from a lot of Attacks of Opportunity.
Soon. Brawlers have no natural bonuses to accuracy.
Secret Wizard wrote: You don't get any penalty to attack rolls for using a Heavy Steel Shield. The only problem with a Heavy Shield is that your hand is occupied for the purpose of grappling. If you don't plan to grapple, it's perfectly fine.
EDIT: Maybe you haven't seen the errata, but Brawlers are now perfectly proficient with shields and can use them with their AC Bonus.
Quote: If you have a Cestus, though, you might as well have a Morning Star. Maybe also do some Shield Bashing, get some armor spikes. My point is, once you are using a weapon, you are using a weapon. You can still make Unarmed Strikes normally regardless of the weapon you are using, so use any weapon(s) you want. This is terrible advice for a Brawler. They can't use morningstars with Brawler's Flurry.
Maybe. You can't use Morningstar with Brawler's Flurry, but sometimes it will do more damage anyway. You can make Attacks of Opportunity with Morningstar and still Flurry with your fists and Armor Spikes.
Anyway, I'm not giving specific advice. I'm just saying that you have a lot of choice of weapons, and since Cestus strikes me as a great departure from Unarmed, you might as well consider lots of options when you consider Cestus.
But now you challenged me to look again, how about Scizore? How about Klar? You can 'Flurry with them.
Scizore penalizes attack, which the Brawler already has little of for a full BAB class (no accuracy boosts).
Klar has the worst critical range possible and only deals slashing.
1d4, 1d6, 1d8, the damage is not that big of thing compared to critical rates. Unlike 5E where a 2d6 weapon is definitely better than 1d4 weapon, damage bonuses are really easy to get in this game.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: You don't get any penalty to attack rolls for using a Heavy Steel Shield. The only problem with a Heavy Shield is that your hand is occupied for the purpose of grappling. If you don't plan to grapple, it's perfectly fine.
EDIT: Maybe you haven't seen the errata, but Brawlers are now perfectly proficient with shields and can use them with their AC Bonus.
Quote: If you have a Cestus, though, you might as well have a Morning Star. Maybe also do some Shield Bashing, get some armor spikes. My point is, once you are using a weapon, you are using a weapon. You can still make Unarmed Strikes normally regardless of the weapon you are using, so use any weapon(s) you want. This is terrible advice for a Brawler. They can't use morningstars with Brawler's Flurry.
Maybe. You can't use Morningstar with Brawler's Flurry, but sometimes it will do more damage anyway. You can make Attacks of Opportunity with Morningstar and still Flurry with your fists and Armor Spikes.
Anyway, I'm not giving specific advice. I'm just saying that you have a lot of choice of weapons, and since Cestus strikes me as a great departure from Unarmed, you might as well consider lots of options when you consider Cestus.
But now you challenged me to look again, how about Scizore? How about Klar? You can 'Flurry with them. I'm going to be grappling a lot, that's why I think I'm probably better off with the Cestus, that way I don't take the -4 penalty for having something in my hands.
I'll take Weapon focus as my first feat and just use Martial Flexibility to access Improved Grapple so that there are no attacks of opportunity. Or is there a better way to do that?
Be a Human and have both at 1st level.
Secret Wizard wrote: Scizore penalizes attack Compared with the Cestus, the Scizore does take a -1 to attack, but you get +3 damage and +1 AC. That's not an unreasonable tradoff.
Secret Wizard wrote: Klar has the worst critical range possible and only deals slashing. Yes, but the base damage of a Bashing Klar is 2d6, and if you take Improved Shield Bash or Thunder and Fang, you get to keep your Shield Bonus to AC when you use it. Of course, if you wanted to go that way, it might make more sense to be a Shield Champion and use a Heavy Shield.
And if I were serious about making a Crit build, I'd go a whole other direction. I'd be a Warpriest and use twin Kukris, replacing the weapon damage with Sacred Weapon Damage, and get Improved Crit and Crit Focus as soon as I could. I'd be a Divine Strategist and take Outflank or Seize the Moment and score lots of Attacks of Opportunity. I'd figure out how to cast Monstrous Physique so I could Polymorph into a Kasatha and use 4 Kukris instead of 2.
Personally, I never cared for Crit builds, though.
Secret Wizard wrote: Be a Human and have both at 1st level. Humans were never my cup of tee.
Could be a Mutagenic Mauler; Mutagen effectively gives +2 to attack and damage bonus which is better than Weapon Focus. It's my favorite archetype for the Brawler, though I'm always torn on it because of the Standard action to activate (I always try to see if I can have some warning to an upcoming fight so I can have the mutagen active when the battle starts) and the hour to create another one (don't usually have an hour to sit around between encounters; just have to pick your mutagen battle wisely).
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: Scizore penalizes attack Compared with the Cestus, the Scizore does take a -1 to attack, but you get +3 damage and +1 AC. That's not an unreasonable tradoff. +0 to AC. You should already be wearing a shield so it won't stack.
And it has a worse critical range.
Plus, the damage gap will get closer as you level up, and you want that Weapon Focus at level 1.
The only thing that makes the Scizore worth it is the fact that it is a 1H weapon, so you could THEORETICALLY use it two-handed for 1.5x STR. But I cannot envision how could that be.
By level 8, the Scizore is fully obsolete otherwise. It becomes sort of obsolete at level 5.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: Klar has the worst critical range possible and only deals slashing. Yes, but the base damage of a Bashing Klar is 2d6, and if you take Improved Shield Bash or Thunder and Fang, you get to keep your Shield Bonus to AC when you use it. Of course, if you wanted to go that way, it might make more sense to be a Shield Champion and use a Heavy Shield.
And if I were serious about making a Crit build, I'd go a whole other direction. I'd be a Warpriest and use twin Kukris, replacing the weapon damage with Sacred Weapon Damage, and get Improved Crit and Crit Focus as soon as I could. I'd be a Divine Strategist and take Outflank or Seize the Moment and score lots of Attacks of Opportunity. I'd figure out how to cast Monstrous Physique so I could Polymorph into a Kasatha and use 4 Kukris instead of 2.
Personally, I never cared for Crit builds, though.
Those are other types of crit builds. I'm not even talking about crit builds here. I'm talking about straight damage calculations.
I could make the same kind of comment about your recommendations: if I wanted a build that dealt high base damage, I would build a Vital Strike Druid, but this is not what this is about.
It's about a weapon that serves a Brawler. A weapon that: a) can be used to grapple, b) deals good damage, c) scales well with Close Weapon Mastery, d) deals several types of damage. That's a Cestus.
RaizielDragon wrote: Could be a Mutagenic Mauler; Mutagen effectively gives +2 to attack and damage bonus which is better than Weapon Focus. It's my favorite archetype for the Brawler, though I'm always torn on it because of the Standard action to activate (I always try to see if I can have some warning to an upcoming fight so I can have the mutagen active when the battle starts) and the hour to create another one (don't usually have an hour to sit around between encounters; just have to pick your mutagen battle wisely). This might be cheese but you can use the Dedicated Adversary feat to get +2 to attack and damage through Martial Flexibility.
I wouldn't call that cheese; I'd call that....being flexible >.> :D
All jokes aside though, I'm just not a fan of Martial Flexibility. I'm probably in a small group there, as I see a lot of praise for it here on the forums; with good reason. Being able to cherry pick just the right feat(s) at just the right moment is very useful. Especially when combined with feats that are stronger but are supposed to be balanced by being more specific and/or making choices when you choose the feat. By being able to take such feats on the fly, and make choices for them on the fly, you gain an awfully large advantage.
I tend to not like abilities that are limited to a certain number of times per day though; which is an odd thing to say when my suggestion to replace it with is a Mutagen that you can only have one of at a time.
Might have something, also, to do with my dislike for option paralysis, which is another reason I don't typically like spellcasters (on top of their limited spells per day) and when I do plan one, I prefer spontaneous casters. I can't imagine having a big list of feats to choose from, and when a fight starts having to spend time pouring over the list to find just the right one. Though admittedly, you can have a refined list of feats you know are going to be useful/broken that makes it easier to choose.
Just how I feel though.
RaizielDragon wrote: Aren't there various gauntlets for changing the type of damage you do with unarmed, meaning you don't need other weapons to get the benefit of other damage types? None that I'm aware of.
Secret Wizard wrote: RaizielDragon wrote: Could be a Mutagenic Mauler; Mutagen effectively gives +2 to attack and damage bonus which is better than Weapon Focus. It's my favorite archetype for the Brawler, though I'm always torn on it because of the Standard action to activate (I always try to see if I can have some warning to an upcoming fight so I can have the mutagen active when the battle starts) and the hour to create another one (don't usually have an hour to sit around between encounters; just have to pick your mutagen battle wisely). This might be cheese but you can use the Dedicated Adversary feat to get +2 to attack and damage through Martial Flexibility. which book is that feat from?
EDIT: found it, Dirty Tactics toolbox.
Nraudette wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: You don't get any penalty to attack rolls for using a Heavy Steel Shield. The only problem with a Heavy Shield is that your hand is occupied for the purpose of grappling. If you don't plan to grapple, it's perfectly fine.
EDIT: Maybe you haven't seen the errata, but Brawlers are now perfectly proficient with shields and can use them with their AC Bonus.
Quote: If you have a Cestus, though, you might as well have a Morning Star. Maybe also do some Shield Bashing, get some armor spikes. My point is, once you are using a weapon, you are using a weapon. You can still make Unarmed Strikes normally regardless of the weapon you are using, so use any weapon(s) you want. This is terrible advice for a Brawler. They can't use morningstars with Brawler's Flurry.
Maybe. You can't use Morningstar with Brawler's Flurry, but sometimes it will do more damage anyway. You can make Attacks of Opportunity with Morningstar and still Flurry with your fists and Armor Spikes.
Anyway, I'm not giving specific advice. I'm just saying that you have a lot of choice of weapons, and since Cestus strikes me as a great departure from Unarmed, you might as well consider lots of options when you consider Cestus.
But now you challenged me to look again, how about Scizore? How about Klar? You can 'Flurry with them. I'm going to be grappling a lot, that's why I think I'm probably better off with the Cestus, that way I don't take the -4 penalty for having something in my hands.
I'll take Weapon focus as my first feat and just use Martial Flexibility to access Improved Grapple so that there are no attacks of opportunity. Or is there a better way to do that? Okay, if you want to be a Grappler, you definitely want 2 hands free. For a Grappling build, I don't recommend emphasizing Brawler. If you want to commit Grappling and nothing else, the classic choice is 9 levels in Tetori. The Inescapable Grasp Ability lets you defeat Freedom of Movement. Otherwise, you usually just have to pray you never meet someone with Freedom of Movement, and most GMs will make sure that you do.
If it is your goal as a Grappler to inflict damage, I like to accomplish that with a Piercing weapon and Hamatula Strike. If you take the Snake Style Feat, your Unarmed Strikes become Piercing, and you get a Free Grapple Check with every hit. Wear Armor Spikes, and you get the bonus damage with every Grapple. Release the Grapple as a Free Action, and do it again! If you then take Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang, you then get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity every time someone attacks and misses you. But check with your GM: releasing that Grapple happens as a Free Action. Free Actions happen within your turn, and Attacks of Opportunity happen outside your turn. Your GM may not let you release your Grapple as part of your Attack of Opportunity. And of course, you can't make AoOs while you are Grappling or being Grappled.
If it is not your goal as a Grappler to inflict damage, then it should be to Tie Up your opponents. I strongly recommend taking 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. The level 2 Ability, Expert Captor, lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take the -10 like you normally do. With Greater Grapple, you can make 2 checks/round: 1 as a Standard Action, the other as a Move Action, so if you begin the round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate the Grapple as a Standard Action, then Tie them Up as a Move Action!
For Class choices for maximizing the growth of your Grapple CMB, you need 4 levels in Alchemist. The Tentacle Discovery which you can get by level 2 Alchemist, gives you a +4 on your check. The Tumor Familiar Discovery will let you take a Crab Familiar which will give you an extra +2. The Strength Mutagen, available at level 1, gives you a +2 on your check. With the Shield Extract, you can get a +4 Shield bonus to AC and leave both hands free. If you do use a Shield. 1 hand and 1 Tentacle should count as having 2 hands free. You have to take the Potion Glutton Feat, which will let you drink your Mutagens and Extracts as well as Potions, "any potable" as a Swift Action. And there is an Alchemal Extract of True Strike. So then when you begin your round adjacent to your opponent under the Effect of True Strike the previous round, you can Initiate your Grapple as a Standard Action, take your Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, an then Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action! It is not that hard to get your Grapple Mod up past +30 by level 9, so with the True Strike Trick, that's +50! What even has a CMD of 50, a Balor Demon? You will have a 90% chance of defeating a Balor Demon in 1 round by level 9.
I just learned a new trick with Grappling. White Haired Witch. You only need 1 level of WHW, and you gain a primary natural attack that gives you a Free Grapple Check with every hit. And when you Grapple an opponent in this way, you are NOT Grappled. And that means you can keep making Attacks of Opportunity even while grappling multiple opponents. And there's nothing wrong with grappling multiple opponents. Take Great Cleave, and Cleave with your Hair!
I just put together a build just like this.
Wrestling with White Haired Witch
I know the rope gauntlet can deal slashing, but still counts as an unarmed strike (as far as I know). I thought there was one for piercing, but I may be thinking of spiked gauntlets (which are definitely a separate weapon as far as I know).
I actually prefer Brawler for grappling; and here's why: they don't have to be a one trick pony.
Tetoris are undisputedly the kings of grappling because of their ability to grapple anyone. But they lose Flurry, which is their main damage dealing gimmick, so they HAVE to be good at whatever they are focusing on; in this case, grappling.
Brawlers may not be able to grapple everyone, but they still have flurry to fall back on if they don't. They also have a scaling bonus to grapple checks with maneuver training, and martial flexibility lets them dig deep into various styles since there are a couple to choose from for grapplers. Though, as I previously mentioned, I'd rather give up martial flexibility and just take the bonuses to Str (and eventually extra damage, speed, sight, Dex/Con etc.) from Mutagenic Mauler.
I prefer the Brawler route because you don't have to worry about not being able to grapple. If you find something you can't hug, you punch it instead. Just seems cleaner to me. It also gives you access to Fighter feats, which can also be accessed with Martial Flexibility.
I just think the Brawler is a cleaner, well-rounded way to be good at grappling.
RaizielDragon wrote: I'm just not a fan of Martial Flexibility. It has its uses. If you just happen to be fighting a monster with a Gaze Attack or is Invisible, or has some kind of Deeper Darkness, then you want Blind Fighting. Or maybe you are playing Pathfinder Society, and you want your Druid to turn into a Giant Octopus, and all those Tentacles with Grab and Constrict are Secondary Natural Attacks: -5 to hit. You have to take the Multiattack Feat then to knock the penalty down to -2, but you can't take Mulitattack in Pathfinder Society. But can you take 1 level in Brawler and use Martial Flexibility to gain the benefit of Mulitattack.
There are other times when you need just the right Feat for the occasion, but you don't want to waste the slot to actually take the Feat. And then MF may be just the thing.
RaizielDragon wrote: I just think the Brawler is a cleaner, well-rounded way to be good at grappling. The build suggestions I proposed just above yours don't preclude taking most of your levels in Brawler. I recommending 2 dips: 1 2 level, 1 4 level. Taking either of both dips still allow for levels in Brawler.
RaizielDragon wrote: Tetoris are undisputedly the kings of grappling because of their ability to grapple anyone. But they lose Flurry, which is their main damage dealing gimmick, so they HAVE to be good at whatever they are focusing on; in this case, grappling. Yes.
To be fair, your first suggestion is levels of Tetori, which is the main thing I was comparing Brawler to.
If a player is ok with the flavor of white-haired witch, or can easily ignore said flavor, then that's not a bad dip; though I'd be careful on assuming you can grapple more than one person with your hair (though maybe there is a ruling on this that I don't know about). I actually thought they had the Grab ability, but I guess I was wrong (or it got errata'd away) so I don't feel it's as strong of a dip. You basically get to add your unarmed strike damage to your grapple attempt, but add a layer of rolls that need to be passed (attack roll followed by grapple check) which can cause an increase in failure rate of the grapple check; though multiple attacks give you multiple attempts to grapple in case of a failure, so I guess that's a toss up. Not being grappled is moderately useful in my opinion.
4 levels of Alchemist seems like pushing the envelope for being qualified as a dip, but ok. A Mutagenic Mauler can already get the Str mutagen, so that breaks even. So you are taking 4 levels for +6 (+4 Tentacle and +2 Crab familiar), which is fair. You would be missing out on a point of maneuver training (which brings the lead on grappling back down to +5) and a level of unarmed damage, as well as a bonus combat feat. I'm not saying it's not a good way to get some bonuses to grapple, I'm just saying there is loss as compared to a straight Brawler.
Both dips also lose you 1 BAB, which is another hit to grapple.
The biggest thing for me is that WHW and tentacle Alchemist both end up making you seem like kind of a freak; they are gimmicky ways to eek out a couple extra points of grapple bonus. Which is a fair suggestion since this board cares about optimization. I was just pointing out that Brawler, as-is, without any class-hopping/dipping, and without any weird physical deformities, and without having to be a one-trick pony, is already a great grappler chassis.
Lastly, if you would notice the wording around where I said I wasn't a fan of Martial Flexibility, I already noted that it definitely has it's uses and can be really good to the point of being almost broken, and that I'm probably in a small group of people who don't like it.
It should be noted that I did state, in both my statement about MF and my statements about Brawler vs Tetori, that it was just my preference; i.e.: my personal opinion.
RaizielDragon wrote: To be fair, your first suggestion is levels of Tetori, which is the main thing I was comparing Brawler to.
If a player is ok with the flavor of white-haired witch, or can easily ignore said flavor, then that's not a bad dip; though I'd be careful on assuming you can grapple more than one person with your hair (though maybe there is a ruling on this that I don't know about). I actually thought they had the Grab ability, but I guess I was wrong (or it got errata'd away) so I don't feel it's as strong of a dip. You basically get to add your unarmed strike damage to your grapple attempt, but add a layer of rolls that need to be passed (attack roll followed by grapple check) which can cause an increase in failure rate of the grapple check; though multiple attacks give you multiple attempts to grapple in case of a failure, so I guess that's a toss up. Not being grappled is moderately useful in my opinion.
4 levels of Alchemist seems like pushing the envelope for being qualified as a dip, but ok. A Mutagenic Mauler can already get the Str mutagen, so that breaks even. So you are taking 4 levels for +6 (+4 Tentacle and +2 Crab familiar), which is fair. You would be missing out on a point of maneuver training (which brings the lead on grappling back down to +5) and a level of unarmed damage, as well as a bonus combat feat. I'm not saying it's not a good way to get some bonuses to grapple, I'm just saying there is loss as compared to a straight Brawler.
Both dips also lose you 1 BAB, which is another hit to grapple.
The biggest thing for me is that WHW and tentacle Alchemist both end up making you seem like kind of a freak; they are gimmicky ways to eek out a couple extra points of grapple bonus. Which is a fair suggestion since this board cares about optimization. I was just pointing out that Brawler, as-is, without any class-hopping/dipping, and without any weird physical deformities, and without having to be a one-trick pony, is already a great grappler chassis.
Lastly, if you would notice the...
Cool.
I agree in that Scott's builds lose much more than they gain.
Secret Wizard wrote: I agree in that Scott's builds lose much more than they gain. Well, I think my builds are just swell.
But what I've been trying to do here was offer a variety of ideas that might help with a Brawler build and then a Grappler build. I feel compelled to point out that I did not actually offer a build on this thread, although I did link to one.
I would appreciate your critique of my build on that thread, but the purpose of this thread is to advise Nraudette on their build, and I don't want to derail this thread by making it about me.
I think you gave very good and accurate advice Scott; he said he would be grappling a lot, and you pointed out that a dedicated grappling build, that doesn't care about anything but grappling, should be a Tetori, and that's a very good point, and I agree.
I just like to remind players that they don't have to go 100% dedicated to a particular aspect by dropping everything else to 1% usefulness. If you don't worry about Freedom of Movement, and drop your grappling reliability by about 5%, you can go Brawler instead and have a host of other abilities and functions.
My opinion also takes into account something else that I forgot to mention, but the OP should take into consideration: grappling is essentially melee controlling. You're filling the same role as a Wizard who casts something like Hold Person except you are putting yourself in harms way to do so as well.
I bring this up because I've seen this cause some issues in games before. I like grappling builds and I've had a chance to play a few, and what often ends up happening is something like:
My turn: move up and grapple
Teammates turn: proceed to slaughter enemy I have grappled
At lower levels, enemies don't tend to last very long, so you will often find yourself cuddling a corpse. You need to choose your grapple targets wisely: BBEGs are prime targets as they will last longer, and so suffer more from the penalties of being grappled. Spellcaster BBEGs are more common at higher levels and will suffer even more for it as well. Also keep an eye out for enemies that want to try and stay highly mobile; anything with high Dex and/or lots of dodge bonus can annoy the rest of the party, but you can hit their CMD instead and take all that away from them.
But other than that, you will often not NEED to grapple something because it's going to be dead in a turn or two; you would have contributed more by punching it than by grabbing it.
At least that's my experience at lower levels; haven't had a chance to try it beyond about level 6.
I loved Tetoris before Brawler came out; now I love Brawlers, but I still respect Tetoris for their grappling ability.
Tetori grapplers are great and all, but the strength in a Brawler isn't that you'll be the undisputed king of a maneuver, it's that you're going to be better at ALL maneuvers than 95% of the players out there, simultaneously, and you'll be able to drop some serious damage. Grapple doesn't work? Switch to trip. No go? Disarm their wands/staves/weapons. Sunnabeech doesn't have any? Blind, nauseate, and deafen them them with quick dirty trick.
Brawlers excel in being really good at a lot of things, not the best at any one thing. I just hit level 11 last night with my brawler. I use Snake Style to help avoid damage and get more attacks with a +28 to sense motive so I also have an amusing out of combat skill (if I could take sense motive as a day job I would...). Like Raiziel said, you don't have to be the best at something to be really effective at it. I stopped grappling obvious mages at my level, but I will wreck them given half a chance in any one of a dozen different ways, and I am practically immune to being grappled or tripped myself.
RaizielDragon wrote: My turn: move up and grapple
Teammates turn: proceed to slaughter enemy I have grappled
At lower levels, enemies don't tend to last very long, so you will often find yourself cuddling a corpse.
As a player with a Grappler PC, I usually considered this to be a satisfactory outcome.
RaizielDragon wrote: 4 levels of Alchemist seems like pushing the envelope for being qualified as a dip That's fair.
RaizielDragon wrote: A Mutagenic Mauler can already get the Str mutagen, so that breaks even. So you are taking 4 levels for +6 (+4 Tentacle and +2 Crab familiar), which is fair. You would be missing out on a point of maneuver training (which brings the lead on grappling back down to +5) and a level of unarmed damage, as well as a bonus combat feat. I'm not saying it's not a good way to get some bonuses to grapple, I'm just saying there is loss as compared to a straight Brawler.... I was just pointing out that Brawler, as-is, without any class-hopping/dipping, and without any weird physical deformities, and without having to be a one-trick pony, is already a great grappler chassis. Brawler is better than I realized.
So if you took just 2 levels in Alchemist, and you took Tentacle, that's +4 for 2 levels: not bad, even compared with Brawler.
There is another trick Alchemists can do: Potion Glutton + True Strike.
Also, the Familiar has other uses. With the Protector Archetype, the Familiar grants a Shield Other effect which is augmented by the the Tumor's Fast Healing 5. A Protector Familiar also has Bodyguard and Combat Reflexes. If, as I suggested, the grappler also takes a level in Cavalier, he can get Paired Opportunist and Tactician, and so the Familiar can give the Grappler some Attacks of Opportunity as well. Without the Protector Familiar Archetype, the Alchemist can use Alchemal Allocation and a Potion of Shield Other combined with the Familiar Shared Spells Ability. to achieve the same effect.
And bear in mind that Alchemists have a lot of other utilities besides.
A second level in Cavalier can yield the Expert Captor Ability, which is extremely powerful for a Grappler.
RaizielDragon wrote: The biggest thing for me is that WHW and tentacle Alchemist both end up making you seem like kind of a freak; they are gimmicky Both true, and depending on preferences of the player and the social atmosphere of their campaign world, either of those--gimmicky or freakish--might be a problem.
RaizielDragon wrote: A Mutagenic Mauler can already get the Str mutagen, so that breaks even. Ah, but what if you don't want to be a Mutagenic Mauler: what if you want to be a Strangler? Strangler is not an unreasonable choice for a Grappling Brawler, and you can't be Strangler/Mutagenic Mauler.
But you can be a Strangler/Alchemist. And what's more, you can be a Strangler/Vivisectionist and stack up on that Sneak Attack and take King Crab Tumor Familiar and Tentacle.
That speaks to the gimmicky freak thing, too. Having a tentacle, hair that comes alive, and a weird tumor growth don't seem as out of place when your main class is called "Strangler."
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