graystone |
4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Here is an interesting question that's come up in out game. Can a 1/2 elf take an elf Alternate Racial Traits when they have the racial trait that's getting traded?
For instance, can a 1/2 elf take Illustrious Urbanite by trading out their keen senses? Or is the 1/2 elf keen senses somehow different? Mark has said that the 1/2 orc skilled is the same as the human skilled so the keen senses should be the same too, right?
If the answer is a no, how are Racial Traits different than feats where you can take then as long as you have the prerequisites?
Kalindlara Contributor |
Bethany Savorsting |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, if Mark said it, that says two things.
1. It may very well be legal by the RAW.
2. It is not however legal in PFS.
As for why I think it should be legal by the rules...
You count as an elf for all effects related to race. The FAQ has been clarified (again, PFS rules reject the FAQ on this) that a half-orc/half-elf/racial heritage feat CAN take racial feats and even favored class bonuses.
So, it's totally legal for me to make a human and have the Catfolk's Cat Claws racial trait by simply taking Racial Heritage (Catfolk) as my regular feat then Catfolk Exemplar (Cat Claws) as my bonus feat. Just don't try it in PFS, and don't be surprised if your GM decides to house rule and say no gouda)
So for a half-elf...
You have this trait called Keen Senses that is exactly the same as an elf's Keen Senses.
Are you an elf? Yes, you are. You are both a human and an elf.
Therefore you can take it.
Kazaan |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was going to say no at first, but on looking more critically, I can't find any logical reason to say this isn't permissible. It's the same logic that says that an alternate class (ie. Ninja) can take Rogue archetypes provided they have the class feature to trade. Neither Samurai (alternate Cavalier) nor Anti-Paladin (alternate Paladin) has any of the class features that the "original" class trades out so, effectively, no Cavalier archetype works for a Samurai nor Paladin for Anti-Paly. But there are Rogue archetypes that work for Ninja because they trade class abilities that are the same for both Rogue and Ninja. Ergo, if both a pure race and its associated half-race share the same exact racial trait, then the half-race ought to be able to take the alternate racial trait from the pure race's list (though, not vice versa). Instances of this kind of crossover are, undoubtedly, going to be rare, but the potential is there. However, in PFS, races are considered completely discrete and things listed under a given race are not considered share-able even with half-breeds.
Dave Justus |
You count as an elf for all effects related to race.
I'm not sure that customizing a 'race' is an effect related to race. It is the race itself, not a related effect.
Basically you have races and sub-races (which are the different alternate racial traits)
Another way of looks at it is that you don't pick 'elf' and then pick what racial traits you want to get, instead you pick a race, including the which alternates and apply that as a package to you character. With this interpretation character effects (like racial heritage) or even universal effects (such as half elves being elves and humans) doesn't have any effect at all on the availability of races and their alternate traits.
graystone |
Kazaan: You had the same reaction I had. My first instinct was no but having Mark say that skilled was the same trait made me rethink it. My current thinking mirrors yours.
Chess Pwn: On the skilled trait, I said "1/2 orc skilled is the same as the human skilled". I'm unsure what you're point is or how that is different than ""Skilled racial trait" is the "Skilled racial trait"".
As to the second part of your post, I'm 100% confused as to what you mean by "something that you can to do it".
Dave Justus: It works for feats, archetypes, FCB, favored enemies, magic items, ect. Further instances of races gaining other races racial traits can be found in the Elven Spirit feat, Racial Heritage (Mythic) and Dwarf Blooded (Oread).
So I'm unsure what wouldn't be counted under an "effect related to race" if it requires the race to take. Hopefully Mark will pop in and give his perspective.
PS: Thanks for the replies everyone and I appreciate everyone being nice about it. I was afraid of a chorus that's [stupid, munchkin, ect] so I'm pleased to see everyone debating the issue on it's merits.
Also I asked this question for a non-PFS game. I knew of their rejecting the general 1/2 elf/orc FAQ so it's an easy answer for the question in that environment. It's the FAQ that makes it a grey area after all. ;)
Chess Pwn |
I'm saying that Orc skilled gives you the "Skilled racial ability."
Human skilled gives you the "Skilled racial ability."
You can't have the "Skilled racial ability" more than once, but Orc skilled isn't human skilled.
I was saying that the alternative racial options are for creating a creature of that race, so you'd need an ability saying you can swap for other races racial abilities to have the option of trading them.
Dave Justus |
I didn't explain my thinking very well perhaps.
You have to pick a race. This is something you do all in one step, and the various options exist in isolation from your character. Your character doesn't effect what races exist.
The options include:
Elf (everything normal)
Elf (Ageless Patience)
Elf (Arcane Focus)
Elf (Ageless Patience & Arcane Focus)
etc. etc.
These are the options available for this choice you make when choosing a characters race. Once chosen, there are numerous effects that are related to that choice, such as favored class benefits and racially limited feats. The various choices available though are not related to the race you have chosen.
Kalindlara Contributor |
I'm saying that Orc skilled gives you the "Skilled racial ability."
Human skilled gives you the "Skilled racial ability."
You can't have the "Skilled racial ability" more than once, but Orc skilled isn't human skilled.I was saying that the alternative racial options are for creating a creature of that race, so you'd need an ability saying you can swap for other races racial abilities to have the option of trading them.
I think the question here is whether Elf Blood/Orc Blood is that ability. It'll let you take the other race's feats, archetypes, and even favored class bonuses... so long as you meet the prerequisite. This appears to be a logical extension of that. I think it's a valid question, at the very least.
I didn't explain my thinking very well perhaps.
You have to pick a race. This is something you do all in one step, and the various options exist in isolation from your character. Your character doesn't effect what races exist.
The options include:
Elf (everything normal)
Elf (Ageless Patience)
Elf (Arcane Focus)
Elf (Ageless Patience & Arcane Focus)
etc. etc.These are the options available for this choice you make when choosing a characters race. Once chosen, there are numerous effects that are related to that choice, such as favored class benefits and racially limited feats. The various choices available though are not related to the race you have chosen.
As for Dave's point: even if it's "fixed at birth", don't forget about the retraining rules. Under the argued interpretation, you could start as a half-elf with only explicitly half-elf things and then retrain into, say, Illustrious Urbanite.
Nefreet |
For the record, because a few posters have been incorrect, PFS has not "rejected" the Half-orc/Half-elf FAQ. PFS uses and relies on the PFRPG ruleset, which includes the FAQ.
What you're probably getting confused is the text within the Additional Resources document for the Advanced Race Guide. It restricts much of a race's content to that race (but only from that book).
It's not a general rule of PFS.
graystone |
Dave Justus: I understood what you said, I just don't see anything that sets it in stone as you put it forth. Also, as shown in the Elven Spirit feat, Racial Heritage (Mythic) and Dwarf Blooded (Oread), racial traits aren't only taken at creation. Additionally, as Kalindlara points out, retraining is another instance of taking traits after creation.
Put all together, I don't see much weight in the theory that every race option has to be done at once or even if that was the general case that a 1/2 elf can't pick an elf trait at that stage as their race starts with Elf Blood.
Nefreet: If I was misrepresenting it, sorry. I have no experience in PFS so I was assuming that other that mentioned it did.
Diego Rossi |
Racial traits, on the other hand, are those racial abilities described at the bottom of each race's description.
Your half elf trait is is described at the bottom of the elf race description (or equivalent section for other books)? No?
You can't take it.
I think the question here is whether Elf Blood/Orc Blood is that ability. It'll let you take the other race's feats, archetypes, and even favored class bonuses... so long as you meet the prerequisite. This appears to be a logical extension of that. I think it's a valid question, at the very least.
You get the Elf Blood/Orc Blood when you select your race and its traits. You can't apply it before you have selected it, so you can't use it to purchase things that you are purchasing at the same time.
Your race is a package you "buy", not something that you apply one piece at a time.
graystone |
APG wrote:Racial traits, on the other hand, are those racial abilities described at the bottom of each race's description.Your half elf trait is is described at the bottom of the elf race description (or equivalent section for other books)? No?
You can't take it.
So that means I can only take the ones in the APG and am unable to take ones from the inner sea races? Clearly not. It also says nothing about who can take those traits just that that's where you find racial traits. Also note that that was written before the FAQ that expanded the 1/2 elf/orc blood traits.
It would also be a good idea to look at the section that deals with alternate traits in question. APG, elf: "The following racial traits replace existing elf racial traits. Consult your GM before selecting any of these new options." With the FAQ, 1/2 elves count as elves. The only question to me seems to be 'are alternate traits an elf rule element'. Quoting from the FAQ, "a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements".
If we went with the thinking of your quote, a 1/2 elf couldn't take elf feats or FCB because they aren't listed under elf for elves to take... ARG: "New Racial Rules
The final section of each race entry provides new rules options for the race other than archetypes." By your thinking, their not being listed under 1/2 elf it's a no?