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There are people using a scimitar without dervish dance?
Yes. Cookie cutter builds aren't terribly exciting to play.
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This is not official. I am not speaking as a dev.
I always assumed "wielded as" means uses the proficiency of, and can apply things that apply to, a scimitar. So, Weapon Finesse, or Weapon Focus (scimitar) apply to attacks with a flame blade.
I don't get that "wielded as" should be taken to mean "functions exactly as unless we state otherwise." That seems like a reach, actually.
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Scimitars don't have reach, actually.
;-)
I think it means it does function as a scimitar, including its threat range of 18-20/x2, because otherwise, it would just be a spell touch attack like regular touch spells, like chill touch, produce flame or shocking grasp.
Scimitars don't have reach, actually.
;-)
I think it means it does function as a scimitar, including its threat range of 18-20/x2, because otherwise, it would just be a spell touch attack like regular touch spells, like chill touch, produce flame or shocking grasp.
So you're not taking this stance based on what you actually think the rules say, but what you think they should say to create diversity in spells?
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I guess I'm saying, if it was meant to be like the regular touch spells, it wouldn't say it's like a scimitar. It would say it was a beam of light or flame. Since the only scimitar-like attribute it would use is its threat range, it is meant to use the threat range of the scimitar. It specifically states it does not use the scimitar's Strength modifier to damage, so if it was not using the scimitar's threat range, that exception would also be stipulated.
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I guess I'm saying, if it was meant to be like the regular touch spells, it wouldn't say it's like a scimitar. It would say it was a beam of light or flame. Since the only scimitar-like attribute it would use is its threat range, it is meant to use the threat range of the scimitar. It specifically states it does not use the scimitar's Strength modifier to damage, so if it was not using the scimitar's threat range, that exception would also be stipulated.
Even if regular Flame Blade has a 20/x2 crit, it still benefits from any feats meant to make you better with a Scimitar. Anything for to-hit, damage, some Sarenrae specific stuff. I just don't see how you can read it as having Scimitar threat range when Mythic Flame Blade exists.
Why does Mythic Flame Blade specifically call it out as having an 18-20 crit range, if it's already "as Flame Blade"?
Why does Mythic Flame Blade specifically call it out as having an 18-20 crit range, if it's already "as Flame Blade"?
Well it could be because the designers and developers are not infallible.
But I agree that it is a 20/x2 Crit range for normal Flame Blade. I just don't think Mythic Flame Blade's text is concrete proof of anything.
All through 3.0, 3.5, and pre-Mythic PF, it's had an 18-20 threat range.
Scimitars made of steel have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of silver have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of cold iron have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of admantine have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of bronze have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of force have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of brilliant energy have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Scimitars made of mithril have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Of course scimitars made of fire have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
It is the defining feature of a scimitar.
Since Flame Blade doesn't mention its Critical Range or Multiplier it would default to 20x2.
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The critical threat range of scimitars is specified under the description of scimitars.
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The critical threat range of scimitars is specified under the description of scimitars.
Which is great if you were actually using a scimitar, instead of something that allows you to add bonuses and abilities that work with scimitars.
Again, something wielded is not the same as being that something in all ways.
It is a spell, those normally have a 20/x2 unless specifically detailed otherwise. All the spell description does is state [b]wielded[/i] as. It doesn't say "treat this spell effect as a scimitar for all purposes" there is a distinct difference between those two. And there are spells and effects that do that unlike this one.
When I "wield" a defending weapon, it means I attack with it to gain the bonus. That is the games "definition" of wielding. It has nothing at all to do with the statistics of the weapon.
By stating it is "wielded" as a scimitar that means the spell effect has possible drawback of non proficiency penalties, as well as being able to benefit from spells/feats/abilities that would provide bonuses to said weapon.The game rules haven't told us to use the weapon specifications of a scimitar, and as it is an exception based rule set, we just do the bare minimum of what they tell us to. And as we have Dev explanation of what "wielded" means in context of the game, suggesting that the spell has stats of the weapon is actually going far beyond what the spell states it does.
You wield it as a scimitar, scimitars have critical threat ranges of 18-20/x2.
The spell then continues and explains the exceptions to it being wielded as a scimitar: the damage die is different, it is a touch attack, it does not apply a Str modifier to damage.
The once exception it does not state is that the scimitar's threat range is reduced.
It says it is wielded as a scimitar; this allows you to apply feats applicable to scimitars to it. If you had the Improved Critical feat for scimitars, it would apply to this spell too. So if Improved Critical would increase the threat range of a scimitar from 18-20 to 15-20, then it would also increase the threat range of the scimitar produced by this spell from 18-20 to 15-20.
Flame Blade summons a magical scimitar that targets the opponent's touch AC.
Magical scimitars also have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
Flame Blade summons a magical scimitar that targets the opponent's touch AC.
Magical scimitars also have a threat range of 18-20/x2.
wielded as if it's a scimitar!=is a magical scimitar
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It's wielded like a scimitar, not a quarterstaff or nunchaku or a glaive or javelin or a standard touch spell.
You can't wield it as a double weapon.
You can't flurry of blows with it.
It does not increase your reach.
You can't throw it.
It is not a touch spell. It creates an effect (a scimitar made out of fire) with which you can make attacks. Because it is a scimitar made out of fire, you can wield it as if it were a scimitar made out of fire.
A touch attack is not a touch (range) spell. Page 213 refers to spells with a range of touch, not all touch attacks.
This is why we need a new edition. ;-)
The argument that "wielded" is not the same as "functions" is ridiculous, does anyone have a glossary citation wherein paizo redefines words to mean something beyond their plain English meaning?
The argument that "wielded" is not the same as "functions" is ridiculous...
Nuh-uh!
(Seriously, it really isn't.)
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Paizo regularly copy pasted spell descriptions, you really believe 3E or Pathfinder are such careful editors that they had uniform distinctions between those words? Can you site evidence of such a distinction?
If not then yeah, parsing rules down to that single word is foolish.
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Paizo regularly copy pasted spell descriptions, you really believe 3E or Pathfinder are such careful editors that they had uniform distinctions between those words? Can you site evidence of such a distinction?
If not then yeah, parsing rules down to that single word is foolish.
Not only that, but flame blade had the same "wielded as" language in 2nd Ed. So that's why it doesn't have the better clarifications of spells that were written in 3.x/PF. It's a port over and it carried baggage. I would treat it exactly like a scimitar in all ways except those specifically changed by the spell.
Gut feeling, 18-20/x2 & feats like Weapon focus - Scimitar would apply. That's how I roll with it at my table.
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At this point the question is contentious enough to need a FAQ. I believe the wording of the mythic version is enough to convey the intent of one designer, but it's not explicit enough for some, and may not be the ruling of the entire design team.
It's wielded like a scimitar, not a quarterstaff or nunchaku or a glaive or javelin or a standard touch spell.
You can't wield it as a double weapon.
You can't flurry of blows with it.
It does not increase your reach.
You can't throw it.
It is not a touch spell. It creates an effect (a scimitar made out of fire) with which you can make attacks. Because it is a scimitar made out of fire, you can wield it as if it were a scimitar made out of fire.
This is the problem, that isn't what the spell says. That is what you are taking it to say.
The spell creates an effect you can wield as a scimitar is ALL the spell says. Not that you are making a scimitar made of fire.
The two are completely different.
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At this point the question is contentious enough to need a FAQ. I believe the wording of the mythic version is enough to convey the intent of one designer, but it's not explicit enough for some, and may not be the ruling of the entire design team.
I'd rather the PDT didn't waste their time with something as silly as this. There are definitely things more important to sus through.
The argument that "wielded" is not the same as "functions" is ridiculous, does anyone have a glossary citation wherein paizo redefines words to mean something beyond their plain English meaning?
I've repeatedly stated that there is an FAQ regarding Defending weapons which clarified what wield means by the PDT.
It means to attack with. Anything above or beyond that is a person imposing what they want from the term to gain more of a benefit than what the spell states it gives.
It's wielded as if it were a scimitar. NOT "as if it were a touch spell."
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In a recent game the GM killed a fellow player's character when his NPC crit with his flame blade spell, dealing double damage. The GM claimed that it had an 18-20 threat range, like a scimitar. I argued the point saying that it does not say that anywhere in the spell.
Your GM did the right thing. That fellow player's character probably did not deserve to live anyways. :P
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At this point the question is contentious enough to need a FAQ. I believe the wording of the mythic version is enough to convey the intent of one designer, but it's not explicit enough for some, and may not be the ruling of the entire design team.I'd rather the PDT didn't waste their time with something as silly as this. There are definitely things more important to sus through.
One man's quest for truth is another man's tabloids.
Just throwing in my support of the "treated as a scimitar except where it states otherwise". (+1 18-20/x2 crit)
Honestly, looking at it more i can see it either way. I clicked the FAQ.
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It does. It can. They can.
Those in the camp of "Flame Blade threatens on 18-20" would also be arguing that "Gozreh's Trident has the brace property and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft and Swashbucklers can use their Swashbuckler Finesse and Deeds (like Precise Strike) with the Trident"?
To be clear, most camps seem to think "and Swashbucklers can use their Swashbuckler Finesse and Deeds (like Precise Strike) with the Trident" is true. You wield it as a trident pretty clearly includes that. It's less clear if the trident also gains abilities the weapon it is based on has, as that's less about how you treat it and more about how the weapon is on its own.
Those in the camp of "Flame Blade threatens on 18-20" would also be arguing that "Gozreh's Trident has the brace property and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft and Swashbucklers can use their Swashbuckler Finesse and Deeds (like Precise Strike) with the Trident"?
This may be a flawed example. Personally I can't picture anything more appropriate for a cleric of Gozreh than to throw a 4-foot long, blazing, forked bolt of electricity shaped like a trident at his enemies. The Ranger combat style for Gozreh emphasizes throwing weapons, after all.
For what it's worth I've never actually had Flame Blade in play but if I did, I'd be inclined to give it the scimitar's threat range. That said, there's certainly ambiguity. FAQ'ed.
It is a spell, those normally have a 20/x2 unless specifically detailed otherwise. All the spell description does is state [b]wielded[/i] as. It doesn't say "treat this spell effect as a scimitar for all purposes" there is a distinct difference between those two. And there are spells and effects that do that unlike this one.When I "wield" a defending weapon, it means I attack with it to gain the bonus. That is the games "definition" of wielding. It has nothing at all to do with the statistics of the weapon.
By stating it is "wielded" as a scimitar that means the spell effect has possible drawback of non proficiency penalties, as well as being able to benefit from spells/feats/abilities that would provide bonuses to said weapon.The game rules haven't told us to use the weapon specifications of a scimitar, and as it is an exception based rule set, we just do the bare minimum of what they tell us to. And as we have Dev explanation of what "wielded" means in context of the game, suggesting that the spell has stats of the weapon is actually going far beyond what the spell states it does.
Having no a priori opinion on this, I read the above as rock solid logic. The functional purpose of the language "wield as if" is necessary to enable the caster to benefit from any feats/abilities that enhance the scimitar. As others have pointed out, the classes that have this spell have scimitars proficiency. So if your druid has a number of feats that boost your scimitar effectiveness, flame blade allows you to leverage them. But there's no symmetry required. Just because it can be wielded as a scimitar does not mean it functions the same as a scimitar.
That fact that other spells call out crit ranges and the Mythic version calls out the crit range is an affirmation.
As far as a priori goes this is sound and solid logic. However, pathfinder didn't start tabula rasa. It carried a bunch of baggage with it from previous versions of the game. In this case, the "wield as" language comes from an edition of the game before threat range, or feats existed. In that game, "wield as" meant "the same as." Really, what you are saying is that prima facie the rule works as Skylancer suggests. And that may be true, but that isn't enough to determine the author's intent. And even that wouldn't be enough to really state affirmatively how it functions in the game today.
