So in Craft Wonderous Item it says
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
But then there are items like Gloves of Elvenkind which says "creator must be an elf" and items like the Corset of Dire Witchcraft says "creator must be a witch" and the Pages of Spell Knowledge say "creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page"
So my question is, all these "musts", are they also exceptions to the +5 to the DC to waive them or can they be waived with a +5 as well? Or for that matter, if my tiefling is making an Elvenkind item, can I just get an elf to touch it at some point and provide that requirement? Or what if they aided me in making it? (more than just a mere touch I mean) Same with other such requirements, if they are actual "musts"(or even if they aren't) can these be met through others like access to spells through another caster can? For that matter, would a polymorph spell to turn me into an elf help make Elvenkind items?
"The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
Seems pretty clear to me.
Polymorphing won't help with anything, I don't think.
The RAW don't specify. IMHO, any good DM should institute some "hard limits" in magic item creation. Racial and class restrictions should be impossible to avoid. The 3 caster levels per +1 of a weapon should be impossible to avoid.
At the end of the day, it's all up to the DM. I suggest extensive house rules to keep item creation under control. And be careful how much loot you hand out as DM. Excessive loot + excessive downtime = excessive loot.
If you're a player and the DM doesn't care about limiting item creation, then nearly all so-called requirements simply cost a +5 in the spellcraft target. Thanks to the handy spell "crafters fortune" you can pretty much go wild, since nearly every magic item in your price range will also be within your spellcraft range, even with a few +5s thrown in there. RAW, racial limits simply add in a +5 spellcraft dent.
But the RAW does specify.
Most of the time, the pre-reqs are spells. That means, sometimes they're not. +5 DC for each pre-req not met.
Obviously anyone can houserule anything they want, but this is not completely unexplained by the rules. It's just ridiculously caster-friendly.
Aren't minimal Caster Levels of the creator mandatory?
Aren't minimal Caster Levels of the creator mandatory?
I don't think so... E.g. A pearl of power can be CL 3, not CL 19.
Re: original questions: I believe that you can have other people supply the requirements, but those people need to be present for the entire crafting period.
Example: A sorcerer wants to make a cloak of protection, doesn't have guidance, and doesn't want to add 5 to the DC, so his cleric buddy sits with him for 8 hours a day (unable to do his own downtime activity) until the cloak is complete.
Example not stated by the rules but inferred from above: A human wants to make a cloak of elvinkind, so he gets his elf buddy to sit with him and help in the crafting for 8 hours a day until the cloak is done.
Example not stated by the rules but inferred from above: A human wants to make a cloak of elvinkind, so he gets his elf buddy to sit with him and help in the crafting for 8 hours a day until the cloak is done.
The last part doesn't work as the rules say "the creator must be an elf". You can't just drag an elf off the street, and satisfy the requisite that way.
I also generally exclude PCs of the given race as essentially racial items of that magnitude or better, are created by elder crafters of the given race who don't give out their secrets easily.
So out of curiousity, if I waive the "creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page" for Pages of Spell Knowledge, and I make a spell knowledge page with a spell from a different spell list, would I still have to roll Use Magic Device to emulate being that class to prepare said spell from another list? Being as I made it and all, can I somehow make it usable by my class?
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So out of curiousity, if I waive the "creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page" for Pages of Spell Knowledge, and I make a spell knowledge page with a spell from a different spell list, would I still have to roll Use Magic Device to emulate being that class to prepare said spell from another list?
With all the rules you're breaking already, what's one more?
With all the rules you're breaking already, what's one more?
I am asking what rules are, not breaking them, and in the end, rules interpretations come down to DM discretion regardless. I still have to bring this up with my DM, I'm just curious what other people had to say. I already intended to roll UMD for pages of spell knowledge, I'm just thinking if I myself make it, if I can make it as my class even though it's another class's spell list and not have to roll UMD each time to prepare it. I'm making a Witch with a support and healing kind of feel to it, and would like to get some cleric spells, I don't mind rolling UMD every time if I must, but it'd be nice if I could get around that, maybe raising the price or something. I might just roll UMD regardless tho, it's fine.
The last part doesn't work as the rules say "the creator must be an elf". You can't just drag an elf off the street, and satisfy the requisite that way.
I also generally exclude PCs of the given race as essentially racial items of that magnitude or better, are created by elder crafters of the given race who don't give out their secrets easily.
Also Pathfinder Unchained includes rules about Dynamic Item Creation and how a group can all craft together and only one Creator needs the item creation feat, and talks about all working on the item as creators. So I do feel like if more than one person work together on something each of them is a creator and can probably meet those prerequisites together. But as far as them needing to be elders and such, that's very DM decision territory and I'd say not everyone may want to do that.
Wolfswift, you do not use Use Magic Device to emulate a class when you are creating a magic item.
If you are creating a Page of Spell Knowledge and you do not have the spell you simply add +5 to the DC. It doesn't matter what class the spell comes from.
Next, you cannot use Page of Spell Knowledge to give your Witch access to cleric spells. Use Magic Device does not get around this.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell’s cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn’t appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.
So, while UMD would allow you to activate an item as if you had a required class feature that is not relevant here since Page of Spell Knowledge is granting you an expansion of an existing ability that you do not possess. You are not a spontaneous spellcaster and you do not have the spell on your spell list.
Here is an example that UMD is good for:
This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.
When wielded by a paladin, this sacred weapon provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin’s class level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the paladin to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.
By using UMD you can trick the Holy Avenger into believing you are a Paladin of level <UMD result-20>. The Holy Avenger is not giving you an improvement on a class ability though.
Another example of an item that UMD would not work effectively on:
This armor special ability works only for good creatures with the challenge ability (such as cavaliers) or the smite evil ability (such as paladins, half-celestials, and creatures with the celestial creature template). A wearer with one of these abilities gains a +2 sacred bonus to AC against attacks from the chosen opponent.
Yes, you could UMD the alignment. Yes, you could UMD the class ability to trick the armor into believing you have it.
But, you cannot UMD actually HAVING the class ability which is required to gain the bonus. (You must be challenging or smiting the chosen opponent to get the +2 sacred bonus to AC against that chosen opponent).
Yeah, so I misread it. I thought it said something about how it works, like in general for casters and then specified how it'd work for spontaneous casters in more detail. So that item is out regardless, but I could probly make a similiar new item that'd work the way I want it to, just gotta talk to my DM about it.
Honestly, I think you are overthinking this. If you want to cast a spell that is not on your spell list then buy a scroll or wand and use UMD to cast it.
Any magic item that added a spell to your spell list should be prohibitively expensive (because it is breaking a basic understanding of the game). Not just the price of a Page of Spell Knowledge.
I can't make scrolls or wands without the spell though, they are spell-completion magic items and do require you to have the spell handy. And if I wanted to have the spell for casting over and over, a scroll wouldn't cut it. I'm also not sure I would be able to find a scroll or wand of every spell I may end up wanting. I have considered if I can just research new Witch versions of spells, and considered it might be the only way, even if it will cut into Magic Item Creation downtime, but maybe if we have days off and I can only spend 8 hours crafting anyhow, the rest of my waking hours can be focused on spell research.
If wands and scrolls are readily available and not too crazy expensive, I might look into that sort of thing. But if scrolls are made readily available, there isn't a whole lot stopping wizards, witches, magus and alchemists from learning every spell on their lists pretty easily. So I feel like if some scrolls and such are available, it'll be a few here and there, not like ready access to any and all.
You are not totally out of luck, get a staff made with the spells you want and one spell you can cast, because it has one spell you can cast you can recharge the staff, the DC to umd a staff for activating the other spells is always 20. This isn't unrestricted use, but it is in long term a one time cost solution.
Wolfswift, if you want to make a scroll or wand you just need to find someone to cast the spell for you. Your party cleric can do that.
Regarding learning every spell on their list, sure...you don't even need (more expensive) scrolls for that. You can learn from other spellbooks for much less money (spell level*spell level*5gp + scribing cost). Of course, as a Witch you cannot use a spellbook and must find another witch (a greater restriction than other prepared arcane spellcasters).
Regarding new Witch versions of existing spells on other spell lists, that is up to your GM but as a GM, I wouldn't allow it because that breaks the basic premise of different classes having different spell lists.
Aren't minimal Caster Levels of the creator mandatory?I don't think so... E.g. A pearl of power can be CL 3, not CL 19.
True. I was confused with the rules for crafting Constructs:
the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements
Wolfswift, if you want to make a scroll or wand you just need to find someone to cast the spell for you. Your party cleric can do that.
Regarding learning every spell on their list, sure...you don't even need (more expensive) scrolls for that. You can learn from other spellbooks for much less money (spell level*spell level*5gp + scribing cost). Of course, as a Witch you cannot use a spellbook and must find another witch (a greater restriction than other prepared arcane spellcasters).
Regarding new Witch versions of existing spells on other spell lists, that is up to your GM but as a GM, I wouldn't allow it because that breaks the basic premise of different classes having different spell lists.
I feel like I might be able to get away with some, I'm not intending to go for like TONS of the super powerful ones. I took the Healing patron to get some useful ones like the Restoration spells and such. As for getting the group's cleric to cast spells for me, well I am the only group healer, hense why I intend to try get more support spells. I may have to locate some random spellcasters and pay them to cast for me to make wands or staves. I chose Witch because Healing hex is cool and Fortune and Ward hexes and such, Witch gets some good support spells, but there are many it does not, I intend to be as supporty as possible.
I considered Shaman, especially with some racial favored class bonuses being "Add one spell from the cleric spell list that isn’t on the shaman spell list to the list of spells the shaman knows. This spell must be at least 1 level below the highest spell level the shaman can cast." That is pretty cool, but there are far too many things I find wrong with the Shaman. I like Witch more for being INT based (for spellcraft, knowledges, skill ranks and such) and having more hexes and major hexes and such. They can behave more like a Wizard or other such intelligent caster. I feel a Shaman would be a whole different direction, completely different feel, and it's weird that it's supposedly a Witch/Oracle Hybrid, but it casts on WIS, neither INT or CHA of it's parent classes, and it's missing spells that appear on both the Witch and Oracle spell list, and it randomly gets Summon Nature's ally? They randomly threw Druid in there. Shaman definately needs it's kinks ironed out.
Home game?
Ask your DM to follow spell creation rules to make something from another class to yours. Mine was OK with it as long as it was a level higher than from another class, with some exceptions. i.e. wizards still can't get cure spells, etc.
GM Fiat can go a long way.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
As a GM, I would let any caster to use this mechanic to get a spell on there list. It's a good way for player / GM interaction to make the game more fun for all.
I agree with Snively post above.