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Hello all, I'm new to the Paizo forums, so before showing my work let me talk about why I just made an account and what my goal is.
See, I am really quite taken with the new Kineticist class Paizo has put out. It stirs that elemental urge I have always had a fondness for. Perhaps partly because of Bionicle and likely partly because I have always had a fondness for the rain and wind. (Hiiiissss, sun.)
Regardless, I have been avidly reading and theory building Kineticists since I found out about them while organizing what will be my first tenure as GM. (Spoiler alert: The party will fight Kineticists as a result of this.) I did however notice a failing in every guide I found. It did not talk much about Kineticists mixing with other classes. My inner multiclasser overtook my senses and produced this guide.
There is no point in keeping such a thing to myself however, ergo I elected to join the forums for the purpose of throwing my work to the masses to be brutally torn apart piece by piece until I cry myself to sleep and- Uh, ahem. Anyways, critique is welcome as I no doubt made some errors here and there. Hopefully it is a productive tool for EXPUNGING THE NON-KINETICISTS FROM THE LAND. PURGE THE HERESY! people wishing to make certain Kineticist builds a reality.
...brutally torn apart piece by piece until I cry myself to sleep...
You've come to the right place. >:)
Do continue...
Awesome, as a guide author and designer, I always love reading different kineticist guides!
Dot
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An interesting idea. I've been turned off from the idea of multi classing kineticists because their burn is based on character level instead of class level, meaning if you're 4 kineticist/8 brawler (example) then 1 burn is still 12 hp instead of 4. More and more penalty for the an effect that doesn't get stronger.
An interesting idea. I've been turned off from the idea of multi classing kineticists because their burn is based on character level instead of class level, meaning if you're 4 kineticist/8 brawler (example) then 1 burn is still 12 hp instead of 4. More and more penalty for the an effect that doesn't get stronger.
Burn is actually one of the less relevant things I looked at for parts of this guide. I see Burn as static in nature, whereas I looked instead at the effectiveness of the Kineticist Powers including ones with Burn and compared them to what I can get by multiclassing. You're not totally wrong though! I do conclude my guide by pointing out the failings of multiclassing and recommending a 1-3 lvl dip total across other classes for most Kineticists.
I think if burn was thought of as temporary con damage it would be easier to understand. It is effectively what burn is minus the changes to the ability modifiers affecting anything other than health.
Good read through. I'd like to see something like this written for gestalt characters. A lot of work put into this. Thanks for sharing.
Would Bloodrager with the Mad Magic feat work for using blasts while bloodraging? Or even Magus' Broad Study to use blasts with spellstrike/spell combat if you're a Myrmidarch/Eldritch Archer?
I think if burn was thought of as temporary con damage it would be easier to understand. It is effectively what burn is minus the changes to the ability modifiers affecting anything other than health.
Good read through. I'd like to see something like this written for gestalt characters. A lot of work put into this. Thanks for sharing.
Oh gosh, I can't imagine how much work it would be to cover all the gestalt combinations out there. 0_o I did try to leave notes on my thoughts for gestalt Kineticists though. I think the guide serves as a decent starting point for that. What's good together should still generally be good together, although I would certainly bump things like Fighter up in rating if you get full progression on them.
Would a Bloodrager with Mad Magic work with Kineticist? Or a Magus with Broad Study?
As far as I am aware, no. Something needs to call out Spell-Like Abilities to combo. Which is one difficulty Kineticists face in PrCs and additional content like feats. It REALLY bothered me when reading the wording on things like the racial [blank] Affinity traits. I really hope I'm wrong on that, but couldn't find anything to the contrary. However, Caster Level bonuses that are flat like Magical Knack should. The question then is how effective is having that caster level bonus on your build? (Possibly a trait I should edit a mention of into the guide. I'll sleep on it and anything else I should think of.)
Also, still slightly surprised how quickly Mark-senpai noticed this thread.
Ever thought of dipping out of Stonelord Paladin? It gives Defensive Stance.
It gets a line under Paladin near the bottom, so, yes. :) Though, I personally thought 4 lvls just for one stance was pushing the limit even with out many goodies a Str. build gets out of Paladin.
You dip out of it, not into it.Ever thought of dipping out of Stonelord Paladin? It gives Defensive Stance.It gets a line under Paladin near the bottom, so, yes. :) Though, I personally thought 4 lvls just for one stance was pushing the limit even with out many goodies a Str. build gets out of Paladin.
I don't see how that changes the factors. I mean, by level 13 or so I don't see the difference between dipping into or out of Stonelord Paladin.
If you like the other features of Stonelord Paladin, or don't want the feats for Stalwart Defender, then I can see it. Stoneblood and Heartstone are strong contenders. Otherwise, I would wait until really high levels where I can easily pick up Stalwart Defender as it either gives you more class lvls, or if you go through Wild Rager into Stalwart you have the same number of missing lvls, 4, and now have two complimentary abilities which get rounds from your (Hopefully) plentiful Con. This is very much an advanced player trick in my mind as you are giving up straightforward progression for a highly positional based set of skills. You have to manage a lot in this theoretical build to eek out an edge!
I noticed in your guide that you mentioned having Kinetic Blast be a Sacred Weapon for Warpriests.
How would that work? Would the base die increase but any additional dice be the normal? Can you add enchantments to it?
A kinetic blast cannot be wielded, so I'm not sure that you can apply Sacred Weapon to it based on the wording. :(
** spoiler omitted **
A kinetic blast cannot be wielded, so I'm not sure that you can apply Sacred Weapon to it based on the wording. :(
Technically, the Kinetic Blast is wielded, just for a very short amount of time. And Weapon Focus CAN be applied to Kinetic Blasts. At least, everything I remember said it can.
In any case, I mention this being ineffective because there's no real reason to do this. Sacred Weapon damage does not replace the superior damage die of the Kinetic Blast and serves no real purpose. Though, for argument's sake if you did either have a Gestalt game or otherwise pick up Kinetic Blasts and Weapon Focus for them, then yes. You can apply enhancements to them. However, just like I mentioned in the section on Magus these weapons disappear either during or after the round or at the start of the next round. You would have to use a Swift Action every round to re-enchant your new weapon.
"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"
"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"
Ah, well I failed at that one then! Sometimes logic and Pathfinder do not cross. It's a weird interaction, that's for sure. XD
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"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"Ah, well I failed at that one then! Sometimes logic and Pathfinder do not cross. It's a weird interaction, that's for sure. XD
The thing I both love and hate about this class is it's written with corner cases in mind.
Also, who said you could link my guide? At least without asking me to link yours to mine? My multiclass section is basically null, so I figure a link to your guide could help out there if you don't mind.
"The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion)"Ah, well I failed at that one then! Sometimes logic and Pathfinder do not cross. It's a weird interaction, that's for sure. XDThe thing I both love and hate about this class is it's written with corner cases in mind.
Also, who said you could link my guide? At least without asking me to link yours to mine? My multiclass section is basically null, so I figure a link to your guide could help out there if you don't mind.
Ah, sorry if I offended! Not quite used to the etiquette of such things. Of course you can if you believe I did a good job. ^_^
I cant open it :(
Nah, I was just messing with you, I support all guides, I just like ribbing the new person. I'm holding off updating my guide until Occult origins comes out, but your guide looks like it's coming along well, I'll read it more later and give a more informed opinion though.
I would very much appreciate critique. I am sure I got some things wrong, but sometimes it's hard to edit your own thoughts ya know? But once the ball gets rolling it's easier to pick up on other things you failed at.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems spell combat does not work with kinetic blade.
It makes me a sadface, but there you have it.
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Huh. No mention of Gunslingers in the guide or in this thread?
It seems like a decent option for a one level dip as soon as you can afford a Conductive pistol and turn those higher damage Physical Kinetic Blasts into touch attacks. Earth in particular seems pretty great, allowing you to get all three types of mundane damage as bullet riders.
Heck, dipping gunslinger and main lining Blood Kineticist seems like a great way to play as Hellsing's Alucard.
Something worth adding:
One level of telekinetist is REALLY good for thrown weapon characters. Telekinetic blast has an option that allows you to use your thrown weapon damage instead of your blast damage, which basically allows you to use Con to damage instead of Strength for your thrown weapon attacks.
I'm still trying to see if there are ways to make a full-attack while using that version of telekinetic blast, but if you can, its not a terrible option for rangers and slayers with the thrown weapon style or flying blade swashbucklers. Especially since it only requires a one-level dip into kineticist.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems spell combat does not work with kinetic blade.
It makes me a sadface, but there you have it.
Ya, I noticed that when it was pointed out to me I missed that Kineticists are never WEILDING blasts. That messed up a lot of interactions I had in the guide. I'm editing to remove all those sections now. That was my mistake in missing a small line with Kineticist. ^_^" Sorry guys. I made a loooot of mistakes because of that one.
Something worth adding:
One level of telekinetist is REALLY good for thrown weapon characters. Telekinetic blast has an option that allows you to use your thrown weapon damage instead of your blast damage, which basically allows you to use Con to damage instead of Strength for your thrown weapon attacks.
I'm still trying to see if there are ways to make a full-attack while using that version of telekinetic blast, but if you can, its not a terrible option for rangers and slayers with the thrown weapon style or flying blade swashbucklers. Especially since it only requires a one-level dip into kineticist.
A good point! I will try to add that in.
EDIT: I did not quote the wrong post. >_> Nope.
Mwuahahaha, the Swashbuckler didn't have the word "wields" in it! A section survives the crisis!
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Huh. No mention of Gunslingers in the guide or in this thread?
It seems like a decent option for a one level dip as soon as you can afford a Conductive pistol and turn those higher damage Physical Kinetic Blasts into touch attacks. Earth in particular seems pretty great, allowing you to get all three types of mundane damage as bullet riders.
Heck, dipping gunslinger and main lining Blood Kineticist seems like a great way to play as Hellsing's Alucard.
you cannot conductive physical blasts.
conductive works only on melee or ranged TOUCH attacks, physical blasts aren't touch attacks, they aim for normal ac.
you could conductive the energy blasts though, dont know how much of a gain that would be
Really? Well, darn. Yeah I can see why it isn't much of a thing now.
Really? Well, darn. Yeah I can see why it isn't much of a thing now.Huh. No mention of Gunslingers in the guide or in this thread?
It seems like a decent option for a one level dip as soon as you can afford a Conductive pistol and turn those higher damage Physical Kinetic Blasts into touch attacks. Earth in particular seems pretty great, allowing you to get all three types of mundane damage as bullet riders.
Heck, dipping gunslinger and main lining Blood Kineticist seems like a great way to play as Hellsing's Alucard.
you cannot conductive physical blasts.
conductive works only on melee or ranged TOUCH attacks, physical blasts aren't touch attacks, they aim for normal ac.
you could conductive the energy blasts though, dont know how much of a gain that would be
Yea, unfortunately I don't see a point to using a gun with Kineticist. It's a shame they are so limited in terms of the words, "Spell-Like Abilities" vs "Spells." If not then Spellslinger would open up a world of awesome characters.
Besides which, conductive is edgy enough that I have, for the moment, tried not to think too hard about it. It could reinstate something like Magus, but I'm not honestly not sure if Conductive should be allowed with Kineticist abilities and if so how. I would be interested in seeing the designer's thoughts on this.
Dot.
Yea, unfortunately I don't see a point to using a gun with Kineticist. It's a shame they are so limited in terms of the words, "Spell-Like Abilities" vs "Spells." If not then Spellslinger would open up a world of awesome characters.
Besides which, conductive is edgy enough that I have, for the moment, tried not to think too hard about it. It could reinstate something like Magus, but I'm not honestly not sure if Conductive should be allowed with Kineticist abilities and if so how. I would be interested in seeing the designer's thoughts on this.
He came out earlier and said it should work, but that conductive will get a FAQ or Errata to specify it works only 1/round, so you can full attack with full blasts, and that kinetic blade while alters the shape of the blast doesn't work as RAW for melee weapons.
With all that there really isn't too much point to it besides using double barrel shotguns so you can spend all your burn allotment on stuff fun stuff like magnetizing or dispelling spells with your fiery bullets while still effecting an area and bump your damage a bit with stuff like vital strike.
Ah, I see. So, conductive guns and bows are not really out of the question, but basically everything else seems to be? And am I understanding it right that 1/round means you only get a single blow in that does the Kinetic Blast damage?
Wait, but how does that even work with Elemental Flurry?! Is the ideal Elemental Ascetic supposed to be a multiclass gunslinger or Zen Archer using a Guided Conductive weapon or can you not do anything because, "He can't use his kinetic blast without a form infusion". Or... Bleeeh. *shoots the rule book with a gun that may or may not deal Kinetic Blast damage*
Will you be adding Occult classes?
Wouldn't jumping into Mammoth Rider disqualify you for the Animal Ally feat, since it gives you an animal companion?
Finally linked your guide, good luck on it!
<3
Will you be adding Occult classes?
I kinda already have, since this is about the Kineticist. The thing is though, generally I think Spellcasters are a bad idea so I excluded most spell based classes from the guide, including the other Occult classes.
Wouldn't jumping into Mammoth Rider disqualify you for the Animal Ally feat, since it gives you an animal companion?
I'm actually surprised you are asking me this, and less surprised to see you have been thinking about cheeky builds for your own thread. XD
"If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter's bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources."
So, no reason I can see why it wouldn't work! Badbella should have an effective druid level of 8 at lvl 10 before Boon Companion. Also, nice pic on her, I almost used it for my Zeltron in my current d20 game.
EDIT: Oh, I'm also editting in a section on Gunslinger and Picaroon. I'm probably going to draft a few takes on a special note for using a Conductive weapon, so except that to be added in without warning.
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I was surprised that Slayer isn't rated better as a 1-level dip for the Kineticist.
People tend to think quite highly of Point Blank Shot, and Studied Target gives you that all over again (stacking) for ranged or even for melee. Plus it has full BAB and d10 HD, nice skills...
It's a nice accuracy boost, which seems like it's pretty important for physical blast users.
Well that was a 4 year necro.
I just alerted Broken Zenith so he could add it to the Guide to the Guides.
/cevah
Added to the Guide to the Guides.
/cevah
Touch attacks ignore armor, but dexterity still counts towards the AC. Using a more accurate touch attack to deliver your sneak attack damage is nice, though.