I don't see why not. As long as the familiar has the strength score to hold the bag and the intelligence score to understand what you're asking for, it should totally work.
Aren't the majority of familiars tiny/small size? I believe the haversack is bigger than them and it would be less an issue of "strength" and more an issue of encumbrance. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Plenty of adventurers are small size. They can wear handy haversacks, why can't a familiar? Besides, in DnD encumbrance is tied directly to your Strength score. It doesn't matter if a small creature is trying to carry something ten times its size, as long as it does actually have the Strength to carry the item it won't be encumbered at all. Also, there are no rules for the fearie dragon that say it can't fly encumbered, as far as I recall. Sure, maybe it can't traditionally fight all that well, but most familiars don't partake in combat in any way that's affected by encumbrance in the first place.
Also, fitting a faerie dragon or something with a Handy Haversack sounds like the silliest thing ever and I want to see it happen, if only to say that I did.
The faerie dragon should have a light load of 15 pounds.
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I'm now imagining a colossal haversack that's smaller on the inside.
You should check if your dragon has hands. Without hands how is he supposed to handle the items?
Animal Slots, not sure where you can check for Improved Familiars
Even pfs lets fairy dragons use wands. And the haversack doesn't use a "slot", so it's a grey area.
IRL you can wear a backpack on the front/across the chest (think baby carrier), and a faerie dragon has intelligence + arms/hands with opposalbe thumbs.
I see no reason why this cannot work.
The backpack straps can be wound with string to connect between the wings in the back with the backpack opening happening around the shoulders.
Dont magic items change size to fit the person using them? Dont remember the exact rules for this.
Anyway OP , sure , familiars are intelligent.
Dont magic items change size to fit the person using them? Dont remember the exact rules for this.
Anyway OP , sure , familiars are intelligent.
Not all, I believe there is a line in the magical armor about that. But weapons definitely don't. It may just come down to, "up to the GM" about which do and don't and if it is convenient/doesn't mess with the game.
Plenty of adventurers are small size. They can wear handy haversacks, why can't a familiar? Besides, in DnD encumbrance is tied directly to your Strength score. It doesn't matter if a small creature is trying to carry something ten times its size, as long as it does actually have the Strength to carry the item it won't be encumbered at all. Also, there are no rules for the fearie dragon that say it can't fly encumbered, as far as I recall. Sure, maybe it can't traditionally fight all that well, but most familiars don't partake in combat in any way that's affected by encumbrance in the first place.
Also, fitting a faerie dragon or something with a Handy Haversack sounds like the silliest thing ever and I want to see it happen, if only to say that I did.
Sizes cover A LOT of ground. Your halfling mage isn't the same size as your small cat familiar regardless of you being the same size category. It is a false comparison on that and at least one other point. Familiars aren't characters (being the other), and up until VERY recently, we didn't even have legitimate magical slots for them rules wise.
"If my character can do it, why can't my familiar?" Is not a particularly sound argument.
Also weight is not the only consideration for whether something is encumbered. Armor can do it, as well as other specific rules and situations. You are arguing that the rules allow it because they don't say you can't do it while dismissing the very real fact that familiars have particular rules and they don't state you can.
By no means am I saying they can't drag or pull or otherwise convey a haversack from one place to another STR score allowing. But actually wearing one as per a character is getting into "house rules" territory as nothing in the books allows for it or even hints it is a possibility.
Plenty of adventurers are small size. They can wear handy haversacks, why can't a familiar? Besides, in DnD encumbrance is tied directly to your Strength score. It doesn't matter if a small creature is trying to carry something ten times its size, as long as it does actually have the Strength to carry the item it won't be encumbered at all. Also, there are no rules for the fearie dragon that say it can't fly encumbered, as far as I recall. Sure, maybe it can't traditionally fight all that well, but most familiars don't partake in combat in any way that's affected by encumbrance in the first place.
Also, fitting a faerie dragon or something with a Handy Haversack sounds like the silliest thing ever and I want to see it happen, if only to say that I did.
Sizes cover A LOT of ground. Your halfling mage isn't the same size as your small cat familiar regardless of you being the same size category. It is a false comparison on that and at least one other point. Familiars aren't characters (being the other), and up until VERY recently, we didn't even have legitimate magical slots for them rules wise.
"If my character can do it, why can't my familiar?" Is not a particularly sound argument.
Also weight is not the only consideration for whether something is encumbered. Armor can do it, as well as other specific rules and situations. You are arguing that the rules allow it because they don't say you can't do it while dismissing the very real fact that familiars have particular rules and they don't state you can.
By no means am I saying they can't drag or pull or otherwise convey a haversack from one place to another STR score allowing. But actually wearing one as per a character is getting into "house rules" territory as nothing in the books allows for it or even hints it is a possibility.
Citation on those limitations for the Haversack?
It weighs 5 lbs, the dragon can carry 3x that, where is the issue?
15 is just the light load for the faerie dragon. Although there is an implication that creatures can only fly while carrying a light load.
I see no reason why this cannot work.
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Pathfinder isn't defined by what you can't do. You have to find a reason on why you CAN do it.
Pathfinder isn't defined by what you can't do. You have to find a reason on why you CAN do it.
I see no reason why this cannot work.
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Encumbrance rules define how much you can carry. The dragon can carry this.
A Faerie Dragon can certainly use a Handy Haversack.
They are treated as Biped (Hands) in Animal Archive meaning they can use All Item Slots and can manipulate with their hands to carry objects.
It also has the carrying capacity needed to hold it.
Also consider;
"These wondrous items do not adhere to a specific slot, and are often carried by a character in a way similar to a potion or wand, worn on some part of the body that doesn't correspond to an item slot, or are otherwise utilized in a particular way detailed in the item's description. Slotless wondrous items range through the gamut of appearances and functions, and, generally, if a magic item doesn't fit into any other category it appears here.
Anyone can use slotless wondrous items unless specified otherwise by its description. These wondrous items are usually use-activated or triggered by a command word, but details vary from item to item."
To claim otherwise would need some rules quotes to back it up.
A Faerie Dragon can certainly use a Handy Haversack.
They are treated as Biped (Hands) in Animal Archive meaning they can use All Item Slots and can manipulate with their hands to carry objects.
It also has the carrying capacity needed to hold it.
Also consider;
"These wondrous items do not adhere to a specific slot, and are often carried by a character in a way similar to a potion or wand, worn on some part of the body that doesn't correspond to an item slot, or are otherwise utilized in a particular way detailed in the item's description. Slotless wondrous items range through the gamut of appearances and functions, and, generally, if a magic item doesn't fit into any other category it appears here.
Anyone can use slotless wondrous items unless specified otherwise by its description. These wondrous items are usually use-activated or triggered by a command word, but details vary from item to item."
To claim otherwise would need some rules quotes to back it up.
And the Rules are written in the assumption that the CHARACTER is the one using or being referred to. Not the familiar or animal companion, the CHARACTER. You even quoted it. That they made rules specifically for the familiar and animal companions to limit which slots they had shows they obviously don't follow all the rules for the CHARACTER in the book.
My book bag, which is smaller than a haversack, is still twice the size of my rather large 20lb cat. You would 1) have to modify it to be able to carry it (oops custom magical item now) and 2) it would significantly impact the movement of the cat while it was on them. It could carry the weight sure, but there would be problems moving like it does normally, which equates to what "encumbrance" does.
If you want to argue that familiars are in all ways the same as characters despite having particular rules about what they can and are... Fine. That doesn't make it a good or valid argument. You ARE leaving the boundaries of the Rules to allow this, no matter what you say or how you reason it. The rules being silent on a subject doesn't give you the ability to do it, because "it didn't say I can't" or make your position RAW. Familiars and animal companions aren't characters, they are class abilities.
Besides why aren't you looking at things like tiny saddle bags of holding (as I believe they exist)?
Oh right, you are looking for a mechanical advantage that the haversack gives.... That right there is an "alarm" that you are starting to get into "bending or twisting" the rules and should make you take pause and reconsider what exactly you are up to.
I still would tend to imagine that a faerie dragon is going to have problems hauling a bag that's larger than it is. The only magic items that have a penchant for resizing are those that are worn, not hung on the body.
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A Faerie Dragon can certainly use a Handy Haversack.
They are treated as Biped (Hands) in Animal Archive meaning they can use All Item Slots and can manipulate with their hands to carry objects.
It also has the carrying capacity needed to hold it.
Also consider;
"These wondrous items do not adhere to a specific slot, and are often carried by a character in a way similar to a potion or wand, worn on some part of the body that doesn't correspond to an item slot, or are otherwise utilized in a particular way detailed in the item's description. Slotless wondrous items range through the gamut of appearances and functions, and, generally, if a magic item doesn't fit into any other category it appears here.
Anyone can use slotless wondrous items unless specified otherwise by its description. These wondrous items are usually use-activated or triggered by a command word, but details vary from item to item."
To claim otherwise would need some rules quotes to back it up.
And the Rules are written in the assumption that the CHARACTER is the one using or being referred to. Not the familiar or animal companion, the CHARACTER. You even quoted it. That they made rules specifically for the familiar and animal companions to limit which slots they had shows they obviously don't follow all the rules for the CHARACTER in the book.
My book bag, which is smaller than a haversack, is still twice the size of my rather large 20lb cat. You would 1) have to modify it to be able to carry it (oops custom magical item now) and 2) it would significantly impact the movement of the cat while it was on them. It could carry the weight sure, but there would be problems moving like it does normally, which equates to what "encumbrance" does.
If you want to argue that familiars are in all ways the same as characters despite having particular rules about what they can and are... Fine. That doesn't make it a good or valid argument. You ARE leaving the...
The rules tell you that familiars have limited slots to use items. So they can use items.
The bag is a bag, with a weight... it doesn't require a slot.
The weight is within the limit of the familiar.
The rules therefor show that it can carry it.
Trying to argue against this goes against the established rules.
Familiars CAN carry stuff, they exist in a corporeal form and can even wear magic items.
They are not JUST class abilities, they are living, breathing physical companions GRANTED to you by your class, just like animal companions, or eidolons.
They can carry and use stuff. Saying otherwise is ludicrous.
To begin with lets get something quite right here , if you are saying they cant because of the size , then one can easilly say you can make magic items for ANY size at all.
It is easy to say then "I went to the shop and got a smaller handy Haversack for my familiar".
Again , they are intelligent , there is no reason they can use this items like they can wands and so on.
"The bag is too big" is honestly a pretty silly argument , to begin with there is no rule saying how big most items are , just how much they weitht , if the size is the issue , then i will just say "I got a smaller one" and there is that.
Also:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100)."
So yeah , there is also this.
If you have slots you can carry items, what's to discuss?
Familiar have slots, ergo they can carry items.
And the Rules are written in the assumption that the CHARACTER is the one using or being referred to. Not the familiar or animal companion, the CHARACTER. You even quoted it. That they made rules specifically for the familiar and animal companions to limit which slots they had shows they obviously don't follow all the rules for the CHARACTER in the book.....
If you want to argue that familiars are in all ways the same as characters despite having particular rules about what they can and are... Fine. That doesn't make it a good or valid argument. You ARE leaving the...
There is no in game definition of "character". If, familiars and companions didn't count as "characters", then they would be immune to things like being staggered and dying, since those are things that effect "characters" as detailed in the glossary.
The limits on what slots a familiar or companion can use is based mostly on their body shape, not their "character-ness".
And the Rules are written in the assumption that the CHARACTER is the one using or being referred to. Not the familiar or animal companion, the CHARACTER. You even quoted it.
It just says character. Which could mean Nonplayer Character (NPC) or Player Character (Character, PC). Which honestly doesn't matter for this discussion.
I only quoted the following, "Anyone can use slotless wondrous items unless specified otherwise by its description.", because a Handy Haversack doesn't have anything in its description that limits its use.
That they made rules specifically for the familiar and animal companions to limit which slots they had shows they obviously don't follow all the rules for the CHARACTER in the book.
They did and i showcased the rules for a Faerie Dragons. They are treated as Biped (Hands) in Animal Archive meaning they can use All Item Slots and can manipulate with their hands to carry objects.
A Faerie Dragon isn't limited at all as to what it can wear. It can use every item slot and can carry manipulate objects in its hands.
It also has the carrying capacity to hold a 5lb haversack.
My book bag, which is smaller than a haversack, is still twice the size of my rather large 20lb cat.
1. A Handy Haversack doesn't have a listed size, just weight (5lbs).
2. I don't know what your backpack and cat have to do with a rules question.You would 1) have to modify it to be able to carry it (oops custom magical item now) and 2) it would significantly impact the movement of the cat while it was on them. It could carry the weight sure, but there would be problems moving like it does normally, which equates to what "encumbrance" does.
1. So what is the "normal" size of a Handy Haversack? Is a small sized Haversack for a Halfling custom? What about a large one for a ogre?
2. Encumbrance is only for Armor and Weight. It's already been demonstrated that a Faerie Dragon can carry 5lbs.
If you want to argue that familiars are in all ways the same as characters despite having particular rules about what they can and are... Fine. That doesn't make it a good or valid argument. You ARE leaving the boundaries of the Rules to allow this, no matter what you say or how you reason it. The rules being silent on a subject doesn't give you the ability to do it, because "it didn't say I can't" or make your position RAW. Familiars and animal companions aren't characters, they are class abilities.
I never said that. You did. I provided the relevant rules needed.
1. Faerie Dragons are listed as Biped (Hands) which have no restrictions on magic item slots.
A Faerie Dragon can wear: Belt of Tumbling (Belt), Robe of Infinite Twine (Body), Sipping Jacket (Chest), Eyes of the Eagle (Eyes), Boots of the Cat (Feet), Irongrip Gauntlets (Hands), Helm of Telepathy (Head), Headband of Vast Intelligence (+2) (Headband), Hand of the Mage (Neck), Muleback Cords (Shoulders), Bracers of Armor (+1) (Wrist), Ioun Stones, and use Slotless items as well; which would include Handy Haversack.
2. Carrying Capacity would be the only limiter. Which in this case 5lbs is a light load for the tiny dragon. So it doesn't hinder the little dragon at all.
3. The Handy Haversack doesn't have any limitations in its description for use.
Oh right, you are looking for a mechanical advantage that the haversack gives....
Isn't that why everyone uses magic items?
That right there is an "alarm" that you are starting to get into "bending or twisting" the rules and should make you take pause and reconsider what exactly you are up to.
Nope. No rules have been "twisted or bent". I followed the required rules for a Faerie Dragon familiar.
And the most damning evidence of all Real Life Animal Backpacks
The only hard and fast rules for encumbrance are based on weight. That doesn't prohibit a GM from imposing a reasonableness requirement for items that are not particularly heavy, but are very bulky, for example.
A strength 25 character might could carry a backpack that is 10 times as big as normal, by weight, for example, but it does not seem reasonable that it would be nearly as usable as a regular backpack as far as getting things out of it, for example. Saying it just won't work properly is certainly within a GMs prerogative, and they are expected to handle such things as a normal course of running the game. It isn't exactly a house-rule to do so, but it also isn't part of the specified rules as to how a GM should adjudicate particular questions.
A backback is describes as a container that holds about 2 cubic feet of material (sizes of things aren't specified, so of course the reasonableness idea applies to filling it as well) and a handy haversack is describes as being a normal looking backpack. So it is a bit bigger than the standard kids school backpack, but not all that much, meaning it is reasonable for a medium or small humanoid to wear one without any real difficulty.
A faerie dragon is a tiny creature. That means it is between 1 and 2 feet long. It would be reasonable to conclude that even if a creature that size could carry the weight of a handy haversack they couldn't effectively operate it as intended, simply because it is too big compared to them. This could include requiring additional activation time or other effects.
It isn't a rule that they have to do so, but it is part of the rules that this sort of thing is where a GM has to make a call.
There is nothing wrong with a GM making a call , but that is his own interpretation.
It isnt RAW by any means at all.
Again there is no rule saying someone couldnt have a backpack made for creatures of different sizes.
Unless ofc the GM for example assume a halfling and an orc use EVERY SINGLE ITEM that isnt armor/weapon (the only items i remember that have such size rules in them) of exactly the same size , which would be quite funny indeed heh.
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Fighter: I'm carrying 20 weapons, because I'm prepared against everything
DM: You can't carry that many weapons, you can only carry 3, it isn't physically possible for someone to carry and it's stupid
Wizard: I cast Wish
DM: Well done, at least someone plays by the rules
"The rules don't tell me I can't move or take actions when I'm dead, so I can continue to play right?"
Absurd things happen when the rules are pressed, that doesn't mean any and everything is possible unless you are told you can't by RAW.
"The rules don't tell me I can't move or take actions when I'm dead, so I can continue to play right?"
Absurd things happen when the rules are pressed, that doesn't mean any and everything is possible unless you are told you can't by RAW.
Poorly worded hyperbole doesn't help your argument.
So either quote a rule that contradicts all of the rules i provided and followed or let it go.
I don't see why a fairy dragon couldn't wear a handy haversack on his front. I'd allow it in my games.
Arguing that most magic items won't resize to fit a tiny character opens up a huge can of worms for anyone who wants to play a tiny character. Since magic items that are worn (apart from weapons and armor for some reason) are generally assumed to shrink and grow to fit the user, that's good enough for me.
Arguing that the backpack could interfere with his wings has some merit, but the backpack would then also cause problems for other races with wings, such as Angel-Wings aasimar and strix. Since they can already fly wearing full plate and a full-size cloak, that seems needlessly convoluted. At most I'd ask them to use a tailor-made Haversack (ie same price but custom-ordered) rather than the one they found in the dungeon over yonder, but even that is pushing it more than I'm comfortable with.
"The rules don't tell me I can't move or take actions when I'm dead, so I can continue to play right?"
This is false. Any dead creature also still has the dying condition and so cannot move.
(...)my rather large 20lb cat.
"The rules don't tell me I can't move or take actions when I'm dead, so I can continue to play right?"This is false. Any dead creature also still has the dying condition and so cannot move.Eventually all dead characters will stop dying, because from the point of view of the literal rules reading that this is about, they continue to get constitution saves every turn forever even after dead, and a natural 20 is an auto success, so eventually they will make one and stabilize and thus stop qualifying for the dying condition.
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On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable
A dead character can't stabilize.
A creature who is dying is unconscious. A creature who is unconscious is helpless. A creature who is helpless acts as if their dexterity is 0.
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile "
Crimeo and his overly pedantic insane rules interpretations strike again.
At least put relevant comments. You're not even trying anymore.
Fighter: I'm carrying 20 weapons, because I'm prepared against everything
DM: You can't carry that many weapons, you can only carry 3, it isn't physically possible for someone to carry and it's stupid
Wizard: I cast Wish
DM: Well done, at least someone plays by the rules
*sets fire to the strawman*
While a familiar can wear a handy haversack since those things shape to whoever's size, there is the issue that you can only fit something in there that you can get in the opening, unlike a bag of holding which has magic stretchy powers. It will be hard to get your gear out in the heat of a fight, possibly impossible.
It's a convenient place to store excess loot though, and the familiar will have a nice place to store their wands. It also gives you a spare bag to use if you need to completely destroy a body or some other kind of evidence.
Uh, the whole point is that Melk is trying to argue that literal, pedantic reading of death rules somehow doesn't lead to any absurdity. And I'm saying that it does lead to absurd results.
Hahahaha...hahahaha! Oh that's rich. I can't even be bothered to try anymore, it's just pointless to even attempt an argument with you.
While a familiar can wear a handy haversack since those things shape to whoever's size, there is the issue that you can only fit something in there that you can get in the opening, unlike a bag of holding which has magic stretchy powers. It will be hard to get your gear out in the heat of a fight, possibly impossible.
It's a convenient place to store excess loot though, and the familiar will have a nice place to store their wands. It also gives you a spare bag to use if you need to completely destroy a body or some other kind of evidence.
If by possibly impossible you mean Move Action.
At some point a dying character becomes dead or stabilizes before that. A dead character becomes a corpse that is an object. Necromancy can make a corpse talk or make it into undead.
Back on topic, in the core rulebook, when it mentions unusual armor, it refers me back to equipment. There it refers to horses and simply says costs are based on size, so magic barding is simply larger. If barding works, so must miscellaneous magic items worn work. They must be made special for size and anatomy.
Personally, I made Wings in Leveled mutations cost 50% more for armor, but that's all house rules. With a strict interpretation, only size matters for cost.
My core rulebook says 2nd print run so it was printed before PonyFinder became a thing. At that time horse meant an animal, not a character. A random duck could be wearing a specially made handy haversack. Your faerie dragon familiar could eat the duck and claim his haversack.