[Purple Duck Games] Kineticist of Porphyra (and guide) discussion


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Silver Crusade

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Since the kineticist guide is getting all sorts of off topic post, I'm going to make a thread here for anyone who wants to discuss it. Hopefully this will help clear up some of the clutter in the main thread. Anything relating to KOP should be discussed here, including it's involvement as well as ratings for KOP options.


Aight, lemme kick things off with a rebuild of the kinetic bomber build I had before, since kinetic bomb now no longer works with concentrate splash:

Spoiler:
Race: Goblin

Str - 14 (-2, mod 1)
Dex - 16 (+4, mod 5)
Con - 18 (mod 4)
Int - 15 (mod 2)
Wis - 12 (mod 1)
Cha - 14 (-2, mod 1)

Size: Small (+1 size to AC, +1 size to attack rolls, +4 size to Stealth, -1 penalty to CMB and CMD)
Base Speed: 20 ft
Skilled (+4 racial to Ride and Stealth)
Fast Movement (+10 ft bonus to base speed)
Darkvision (60 ft)
Trait: Firebug [Combat]
Trait: Enduring Mutagen [Magic]
Trait: Big Ears [Racial]
Drawback: Cruelty

--1st--
Alchemist (baseline) 1
BAB: +0
F/R/W: +2/+2/+0
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Alchemy
Brew Potion
Mutagen
Feat: Throw Anything
Feat: Point-Blank Shot

So why Alchemist first? Mutagen and throw anything. The former is going to allow us to get +4 Con for 10 minutes (11 if we account for enduring mutagen) at the cost of a -2 penalty to Cha, which shouldn't be especially detrimental unless we were trying to negotiate, lie, or intimidate our way through a fight.

I'd consider an archetype that removes the bomb feature, but not the throw anything feat. Originally I was thinking of fire bomber, but realized that it actually would weaken the build quite a bit because it limits throw anything to bombs (note: not specifically alchemist bombs) and alchemical substances. If your DM judges that it can apply to kinetic blasts affected by the kinetic bomb infusion, go fire bomber, definitely. Otherwise, either go base alchemist or pick between vivisectionist, blazing torchebearer, or spellchymist.

Also there's no point in going for flame heart unless you go pure kineticist or take exactly two levels in alchemist, and even then you'll need convince your DM to let you count your kineticist level as alchemist levels for the purpose of applying this effect to kinetic blasts with the kinetic bomb infusion. In the case of a pure kineticist, it'd increase your damage dice once more for the kinetic blast (11d10 or 22d8), but only for blasts with the kinetic bomb infusion; for an alchemist 2 kineticist 18 build, you'd just be replacing the last kineticist blast increase you missed by sacrificing 19th level, and in that case you're also sacrificing an infusion wild talent and metakinetic master. Honestly, I'd just skip it unless your DM agrees to let your kinetic bomb blasts take the bonus fire damage gained from the fire bomber archetype. I'll be assuming that such a decision wasn't allowed, and sticking with baseline alchemist.

--2nd--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist (Elemental Scion) 1
BAB: +0
F/R/W: +4/+4/+0
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 1d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 1
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Burn
Elemental Heart: Fire
Gather Power
Kinetic Blast: Fire Blast
Utility: Basic Pyrokinesis

At this point, since you can't yet access infusions, you're better off rolling out bombs until you run out, then using fire blast. Since fire only has one blast, we don't have any option but to take the damage die increase, but I'm sure as heck not going to complain.

--3rd--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 2
BAB: +1
F/R/W: +5/+5/+0
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 1d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 1
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Elemental Defense: Searing Flesh
Utility: Fire's Fury
Feat: Precise Shot

Not much added here that a basic kineticist wouldn't take. Fire's fury should effectively add to splash damage as well as give us a reason to dump some burn into searing flesh.

--4th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 3
Ability Score Increase: Con
BAB: +2
F/R/W: +5/+5/+1
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 2d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 1
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Elemental Overflow 1
Infusion: Kinetic Bomb

At this point the bomb switches to being your backup plan. Normally you'll want to gather power, then toss out a kinetic bomb fire blast. One of the reasons we took that first alchemist level is that throw anything should apply its bonus to our kinetic bomb blasts as well. This means we're adding out Int bonus to both the bomb's damage and to splash damage. Not a huge boost, and certainly not enough to really focus on increasing our Int score, but it's good enough that we'll appreciate a fox's cunning spell tossed our way.

--5th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 4
BAB: +3
F/R/W: +6/+6/+1
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 2d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 1
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Utility: Kinetic Crafter
Feat: Kinetic Prodigy

Kinetic prodigy is a must, IMO. It'll give us that much more damage tacked onto our kinetic bombs (and therefore to our splash damage), as well as letting us penetrate spell resistance more easily. Also I should note that kinetic crafter is a disgustingly awesome talent, especially for those who use their burn at the start of the day on their defense talent.

--6th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 5
BAB: +3
F/R/W: +6/+6/+1
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 3d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 1
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Infusion Specialization 1
Metakinesis: Empower
Infusion: Burning Infusion

Infusion Specialization means we now no longer have to use an alchemist bomb ever again. However, we're still going to use gather power to either empower or bomb or apply burning infusion to it.

--7th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 6
BAB: +4
F/R/W: +7/+7/+2
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 3d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 2
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 1
Elemental Overflow 2
Internal Buffer
Utility: Flame Jet
Feat: Precision Blast

Pretty simple. Flame jet gives us decent out-of-battle flight capabilities, and precision blast allows us to keep our martial allies out of the blast radius for our kinetic bombs.

--8th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 7
Ability Score Increase: Con
BAB: +5
F/R/W: +7/+7/+2
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 4d8/8d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 2
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 1
Wild Talent Effective Level: 9
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Kinetic Blast: Blue Flame Blast
Focused Element
Utility/Infusion: Penetrating Burn

Despite having BFB available, there's no reason to start using it just yet unless there's an emergency where we're willing to actually take burn. Otherwise, we'll just be sticking to fire blast as before. Penetrating burn means even more reason to burn at the start of the day though, as we'll be ignoring quite a bit of fire resistance as a result.

--9th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 8
BAB: +6/+1
F/R/W: +8/+8/+2
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 4d8/8d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 2
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 1
Wild Talent Effective Level: 10
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Infusion Specialization 2
Utility: Greater Flame Jet
Feat: Arcing Lob

Now that we have infusion specialization 2, we can just pop both burning and kinetic bomb onto our fire blasts, so we'll only need to gather power if we want to sacrifice a move to get an empower. Arcing lob means we'll be able to splash onto more ground when fighting bigger foes if we so choose, which is especially nice if we run into something that's huge or bigger that has a number of adjacent adds.

--10th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 9
BAB: +6/+1
F/R/W: +8/+8/+3
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 5d8/10d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 3
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 1
Wild Talent Effective Level: 11
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Elemental Overflow 3
Metakinesis: Maximize
Infusion: Extended Range

Unfortunately we can't really utilize extended range just yet. and maximize is rather pointless, but at least our blasts are doing more.

--11th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 10
BAB: +7/+2
F/R/W: +9/+9/+3
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 5d8/10d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 3
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 1
Wild Talent Effective Level: 12
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Utility: Ride the Blast
Feat: Kinetic Sniper

Kinetic sniper is why we took extended blast before. Now, instead of using burning every time, we can swap it out for extended range and toss our kinetic bombs out considerably further. We can also ride the bombs out, though I have no idea if this'll cause us to take splash damage or not (likely not, though, since it doesn't make us take damage from explosion or fragmentation). Considering we have both a size and racial bonus to stealth, this could prove an effective means of starting a battle before the enemy even knows they're about to be in one.

--12th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 11
Ability Score Increase: Con
BAB: +8/+3
F/R/W: +9/+9/+3
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 6d8/12d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 3
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 2
Wild Talent Effective Level: 13
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Infusion Specialization 3
Supercharge
Infusion: Unraveling Infusion

Unraveling is pretty nice to blot out opponents' magical fire resistance, as well as whatever magical buffs they happen to have on them. Now that we can supercharge and put up to 3 burn in infusions into our blasts for free, we should be able to apply kinetic bomber, kinetic sniper, and burning to a blue flame blast with a supercharge, or swap burning for unraveling on a fire blast.

--13th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 12
BAB: +9/+4
F/R/W: +10/+10/+4
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 6d8/12d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 4
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 2
Wild Talent Effective Level: 14
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Elemental Overload 4
Utility: Searing Flame
Feat: Fire in the Hole

Firstly, searing flame is going to help us further mitigate enemies' fire resistance, so while the talent is coming a little late, it's there nonetheless. Fire in the Hole is a great talent too, although it's probably less useful than it would be for a physical blast since we're already working with touch AC.

--14th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 13
BAB: +9/+4
F/R/W: +10/+10/+4
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 7d8/14d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 4
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 2
Wild Talent Effective Level: 15
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Metakinesis: Quicken
Infusion: Overload Infusion

I picked overload as a means to deal additional DoT to enemies, since we're already dealing with the DoT from burning.

--15th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 14
BAB: +10/+5
F/R/W: +11/+11/+4
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 7d8/14d6
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 4
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 2
Wild Talent Effective Level: 16
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +1
Infusion Specialization 4
Utility: Firesight
Feat: Signature Infusion (Kinetic Bomb)

Alrighty, signature infusion is something we've been waiting for here. Now we can kinetic bomb for free, meaning that we can either use a substance infusion up to four burn or a three burn substance plus kinetic sniper or empower, or a two-burn substance plus both kinetic sniper and empower, assuming we use blue flame. Firesight isn't as useful as it would be if we'd picked up smoke infusion, but it is what it is.

--16th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 15
Ability Score Increase: Con
BAB: +11/+6/+1
F/R/W: +11/+11/+5
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 8d10/16d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 5
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 2
Wild Talent Effective Level: 17
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +2
Elemental Master
Utility/Infusion: Nullifying Infusion

While we're more than capable of handling enemies with fire resistance, nullifying infusion is the way we'll be handling those with fire immunity. Now even fire elementals won't be able to stand up to our explosive might.

--17th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 16
BAB: +12/+7/+2
F/R/W: +12/+12/+5
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 8d10/16d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 5
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 3
Wild Talent Effective Level: 18
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +2
Composite Specialization
Utility: From the Ashes
Feat: Improved Precise Shot

Alrighty, composite specialization. Now we can gather power and apply an extra burn's worth on infusions to a blue flame blast. From the ashes is going to be useful to keep death from ever being a totally permanent thing. Improved precise shot, honestly, is filler. It's not as useful since we have fire in the hole, but if we're allowed to retrain feats, we could swap it out for splash weapon mastery, or use splash weapon mastery in place of this.

--18th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 17
BAB: +12/+7/+2
F/R/W: +12/+12/+5
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 9d10/18d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 5
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 3
Wild Talent Effective Level: 19
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +2
Infusion Specialization 5
Metakinesis: Twice
Infusion: Incorporial Infusion

Incorporial infusion is, honestly, more filler. It gives us a better means to hit ghosts, basically. It could be swapped for whatever infusions you prefer.

--19th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 18
BAB: +13/+8/+3
F/R/W: +13/+13/+6
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 9d10/18d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 6
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 3
Wild Talent Effective Level: 20
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +2
Elemental Overflow 6
Utility: Smoke Storm
Feat: Delay Blast

Delay blast isn't too shabby a talent, though again it's mostly a filler. It is nice in that now we can lay out a kinetic blast as a time bomb.

--20th--
Alchemist 1 Kineticist 19
Ability Score Increase: Con
BAB: +14/+9/+4
F/R/W: +13/+13/+6
Bomb Damage: 1d6
Blast Damage: 10d10/20d8
Bombs per Day: 1+Int
Burn per Round: 6
Burn per Day: 3+Con
Internal Buffer: 3
Wild Talent Effective Level: 21
Wild Talent DC Bonus: +2
Metakinetic Master: Empower
Infusion: Explosion

Blah blah filler blah blah. At this point, quicken could have slightly more damage potential than empower, especially if we have extra burn to spend that day, but I honestly prefer empower because that means we essentially are dealing 1.5 times our blast damage for free. This one's up to you, honestly.

-----

So what's the damage potential here? We've got a lot adding to out kinetic bomb. Its base damage is 10d10+(Con/2) or 20d8+(Con/2), depending on if we use fire or blue flame. However, each of these adds several things:

+Int damage from throw anything
+12 damage (and +6 Con) from elemental overflow
+7 damage from fire's fury
+4 from kinetic prodigy (assuming I've spent burn on an infusion; +3 if I haven't)
+1 from point-blank shot (assuming I'm within 30 ft)

Keep in mind that, with kinetic crafter, it's going to be incredibly easy to get whatever magic items you need, including a red kineticist's diadem, +6 belt of mighty constitution, a pink rhomboid ioun stone, and so on. For the purpose of this I'm going to assume only the benefits of the belt and diadem, along with a fox's cunning and bear's endurance spell, and that all ability increases were applied to Con. We also need to consider that we have mutagen available to us, so we'll be getting an additional +4 to either Con or Dex (more than likely Con) This gives us a Con score of 33 (for an 11 mod) and an Int score of 19 (for a mod of 4). I'm assuming I haven't spent additional burn on an infusion and I'm further than 30 ft away. This means we deal:

10d10+3d6+(11/2)+4+12+7+3=10d10+3d6+31.5
Min 44.5, Max 149.5, Average 97

20d8+3d6+(11/2)+4+12+7+3=20d8+3d6+31.5
Min 54.5, Max 209.5, Average 132

Something important to note is that the minimum damage listed is our splash damage, which I believe should apply regardless of the effect being empowered, though I may be wrong. If your DM allows the restriction and benefit on the fire bomber archetype to apply to fire blasts, note that the fire blast is going to add an extra 13 points of splash damage, and the blue flame is getting 23 more splash damage, for a total of 57 and 77, respectively. Granted these totals are before fire resistance, but between searing flame, penetrating burn, and nullifying infusion, fire resistance and immunity may as well not even exist. If you skip the alchemist level and go flame heart instead, assuming the DM allows you to count your fire and blue flame damage as a 21st level kineticist, you'll be replacing that Int bonus for an extra die which gives us:

11d10+3d6+(11/2)+12+7+3=11d10+3d6+27.5
Min 38.5, Max 152.5, Average 95.5

22d8+3d6+11/2)+12+7+3=22d8+3d6+27.5
Min 52.5, Max 221.5, Average 137

We'll have a slightly higher average, but splash damage will be lower and overall damage more volatile. We also wouldn't have any chance to apply fire bomber's bonus to splash damage because we're not taking any levels in alchemist. We lose out on two feats, but gain elemental embodiment and an extra utility or infusion.

So right now, we have a few options for attacking. Assuming we go balls to the wall and just eat through our burn, we can apply up to 6 burn in a single round. So we use that burn for both quicken and twice, gather power, use the gathered power to pay for each blast to be a blue flame blast. This means we push out three blue flame blasts in one turn (either one with quicken as a swift action and two as standard with twice, or two as a swift action with both quicken and twice and one as a standard). Since we've made empower our metakinetic master metakinesis, it's free, so it gets applied to all three blasts. So assuming we use the build I described above we get:

([(20d8+3d6)*1.5]+31.5)*3=(30d8+4.5d6+31.5)*3=90d8+13.5d6+94.5
Min 199, Max 903.5, Average 552.75

Note that there's a possibility empower won't affect your splash damage, in which case we're just dealing the 54 damage three times, and if you haven't completely eaten through the enemy's fire resistance, you're applying it three times over to this, since it's three hits. Still, it's nothing to just shrug off.

Also, consider that there's a lot of things adding to your attack rolls. If we assume you've got cat's grace and a +6 belt of incredible dexterity or +6 belt of physical might, and that we use the mutagen for Dex instead of Con, that's a Dex score of 34 (mod 12) so the attack roll for hitting an enemy within 30 ft would be:

+14 from BAB
+12 from Dex
+1 from size
+6 from elemental overflow
+1 from firebug
+1 from point-blank shot

So basically if an enemy wants to guarantee a miss from us, it needs a touch AC of 55, and we're guaranteed to hit anything with a touch AC of 16 or less unless we roll a natural 1 or it's behind total concealment or total cover. Admittedly I have no clue how impressive this is, but it feels like - especially for larger enemies whose ACs take a size penalty and against whom I can exploit arcing lob - it'd be pretty decent. Unless you're expecting to try and pump out an extra 2 burn or you know you're facing an enemy that will provoke a lot of will saves, it may actually be better for one to use the mutagen on their Dex than their Con.

Oh, and while I'm at it, may as well ask a question:

- How does suspended impact work with the delay blast feat? I think they do work slightly differently (delay blast adds rounds before the blast actually occurs, while a suspended impact blast still hits, but has a number of rounds added before it deals its damage and has the effect of its substance infusion occur), so it seems to me like the blast would run its delay blast duration first, then if it hits, run its suspended impact duration. Would that be right?

Anyway I may revise my sonic elemental ascetic scion build here too, since I found a 3pp feat that gives one monk damage without needing to use VMC. Basically I'd be sacrificing a few of the Monk abilities and 3 AC to get back four feats, which may or may not be worth the effort.


Super interested to see what your guide has to say about the three new elements; time in particular. It seems like some of the lower level infusions and wild talents fall off pretty hard as you level, especially distorted timeline.

Also, am I reading it correctly, that cerebral kineticist lets you grand intercession ad nauseum? Specifically, that mental barrier is basically DR for burn. How does it interact with defensive talents? Does it mean that you can basically pump up your defensive talent to max for free? Or did you mean to add "per day" to the end of that sentence? If so, it changes it from potentially really powerful to a second, smaller internal buffer.

Reading further, how is the cerebral kineticist ever supposed to benefit from cerebral overflow? It looks like you're basically required to feeblemind yourself in order to gain any benefit. Also unlimited healing. Burn DR is really, really good.


Mental barrier isn't DR for burn. It's basically saying "You can take X burn with no consequences, but thereafter it does increasingly bad stuff." So for example if you're a 10th level cerebral kineticist, you can take 4 burn via mental barrier. Once you take a fifth burn, however, you become dazzled as per psychological burn.

That actually brings up another question I had. Cerebral overflow stats that I give myself a bonus to a mental score rather than a physical score. Does that mean I CAN choose to, or that I MUST choose to? In other words, if I went to 3 burn, could I choose to put a bonus into Int and a bonus into Dex? Or would I have to choose specifically between Int, Wis, and Cha?


Dotting!


Onyx Tanuki wrote:
That actually brings up another question I had. Cerebral overflow stats that I give myself a bonus to a mental score rather than a physical score. Does that mean I CAN choose to, or that I MUST choose to? In other words, if I went to 3 burn, could I choose to put a bonus into Int and a bonus into Dex? Or would I have to choose specifically between Int, Wis, and Cha?

It is absolutely can. All six stats are open for you to buff. While that sounds insane, it really just gives you the ability to buff your casting stat since it is no longer Con. Realistically Kineticists don't need many stats beyond Con, Dex, and casting.


But it doesn't mention a refresh time. Without stating when you are able to use it again, you either have to assume that it only happens once, or it happens at will. I would hope that it's the latter, as it would make the archetype an attractive choice while sacrificing the classes previous focus on durability. Especially interesting is how debilitating it is if you get hit while gathering power.

Edit for clarification: Meaning "can accept x points of burn per day without suffering negative effects". As it is currently written, it seems similar to DR. If the archetype is intended as Onyx is stating, then it is actually worse than the standard kineticist. If that is the case, I would suggest increasing the mental barrier by some ability modifier or give it better scaling to be more in line with the standard burn consequences.

Silver Crusade

IwearSILLYhats wrote:

But it doesn't mention a refresh time. Without stating when you are able to use it again, you either have to assume that it only happens once, or it happens at will. I would hope that it's the latter, as it would make the archetype an attractive choice while sacrificing the classes previous focus on durability. Especially interesting is how debilitating it is if you get hit while gathering power.

Edit for clarification: Meaning "can accept x points of burn per day without suffering negative effects". As it is currently written, it seems similar to DR. If the archetype is intended as Onyx is stating, then it is actually worse than the standard kineticist. If that is the case, I would suggest increasing the mental barrier by some ability modifier or give it better scaling to be more in line with the standard burn consequences.

You're right, the intention there was a daily buffer. It is actually worse than the standard, but only because of how difficult it is to build AROUND burn when it's such an integral part of the class. If I make something that's better than the base class, it removes just about all reason to play the base kineticist, so in this situation I choose to shoot lower.

The scaling is meant to allow you to always be able to get max elemental overflow without going into a coma. Going much higher than that would make it better than the base class, which is my worry. There's like 1 or two things that I need to update in the doc (the annoying illusory duplicate thing) so I'll talk to the publisher about giving it another edit sweep to get that clarified.

Since I'm here, what scaling do you think would work better for this? Like I said, I'm trying not to make something BETTER than the base class, but equal to the base class is acceptable.

Onyx Tanuki wrote:

Mental barrier isn't DR for burn. It's basically saying "You can take X burn with no consequences, but thereafter it does increasingly bad stuff." So for example if you're a 10th level cerebral kineticist, you can take 4 burn via mental barrier. Once you take a fifth burn, however, you become dazzled as per psychological burn.

That actually brings up another question I had. Cerebral overflow stats that I give myself a bonus to a mental score rather than a physical score. Does that mean I CAN choose to, or that I MUST choose to? In other words, if I went to 3 burn, could I choose to put a bonus into Int and a bonus into Dex? Or would I have to choose specifically between Int, Wis, and Cha?

The choice between mental and physical is entirely up to the player, so you can choose whichever you like. That being said, originally I forgot that you couldn't have a 'size bonus' to mental stats, and the idea of making one taller and smarter still amuses me.


Well you have to consider what you're giving up in place of your higher CON score. You gain a few skill points in exchange for worse fort saves, worse HP, a lower burn cap, and increased MAD on the class. Something more in line with a version of the class that values intellect and tact over brute durability would be something like an increase to gather power or maybe the something like infusion specialization but for utility talents.

I could see something like "spend a swift action to reduce the cost of one infusion or utility talent by an amount equal to your mental barrier". The goal is to fight smarter, not harder.

Edit: also forgot to mention that in addition to all the other sacrifices listed above, you lose your first infusion and your basic utility talent.


While you're at it, a bit of clarification on Basic Chronokinesis. Specifically the circumstance bonus on one roll.

Also, is the mending portion still supposed to take 10 minutes? Or a standard action, as I assume that is what it takes to give that circumstance bonus.

Silver Crusade

Onyx Tanuki wrote:
- How does suspended impact work with the delay blast feat? I think they do work slightly differently (delay blast adds rounds before the blast actually occurs, while a suspended impact blast still hits, but has a number of rounds added before it deals its damage and has the effect of its substance infusion occur), so it seems to me like the blast would run its delay blast duration first, then if it hits, run its suspended impact duration. Would that be right?

That would be right, delayed blast is actually a great feat with Time, since due to some of the abilities giving standard or full actions, you could set up a delayed blast during them.

IwearSILLYhats wrote:

Well you have to consider what you're giving up in place of your higher CON score. You gain a few skill points in exchange for worse fort saves, worse HP, a lower burn cap, and increased MAD on the class. Something more in line with a version of the class that values intellect and tact over brute durability would be something like an increase to gather power or maybe the something like infusion specialization but for utility talents.

I could see something like "spend a swift action to reduce the cost of one infusion or utility talent by an amount equal to your mental barrier". The goal is to fight smarter, not harder.

Edit: also forgot to mention that in addition to all the other sacrifices listed above, you lose your first infusion and your basic utility talent.

What you are getting is more racial options (sylph for one), and an easier ability to buff both stats since a con/dex belt is way more expensive than a dex belt and an int headband. As stated, I do agree it's a step down, but it's a step down to try and help facilitate a concept, which I'm okay with.

As for the swift action thing, that'd really break utility wild talents with a burn cost of...anything, really. It's a hard balance to strike, and I'll keep looking for ways to make it better. And post update (the update is available at all sources), it no longer takes both infusion and basic utility talent, I think it just takes basic utility talent now.

Xelaaredn wrote:

While you're at it, a bit of clarification on Basic Chronokinesis. Specifically the circumstance bonus on one roll.

Also, is the mending portion still supposed to take 10 minutes? Or a standard action, as I assume that is what it takes to give that circumstance bonus.

It's basically working like guidance, so it's just a +1 bonus as a standard action that's expended when used.

For mending, I'd say it still takes ten minutes myself, I feel like dropping it to a standard action might be too much although I'm willing to discuss this if others think it would be okay.

I'll probably put an errata link on this thread later in case there's any errata or FAQ I need to list. If/when I do the followup supplement, it'll probably be proper to talk about that here as well.


Made a quick Earth Scion oread that likes being up close and bashing heads in. Using Kinetic Prodigy and Extra Wild Talent at 7th level really brings some pain. ^^

Mountain Hammer:
Oread, Elemental Scion Geokineticist

Strength 16(14+2)
Dexterity 13
Constitution 16
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 14(12+2)
Charisma 8(10-2)

Racial Features: Crystalline Form, Granite Skin, Treacherous Earth

Traits: Reactionary, Defensive Strategist
Lv1: Power Attack. Burn, Elemental Heart(Earth), Elemental Focus(Earth), Gather Power, Infusion, Kinetic Blast(1d8+3)

Lv2: Elemental Defense, Utility Wild Talent(Earth Walk)

Lv3: Shield of Swings, Elemental Overflow +1, Infusion(Kinetic Blade)

Lv4: Utility Wild Talent(Earth Climb), +1 Dex

Lv5: Bleeding Infusion Specialization 1, Metakinesis (Empower), Kinetic Prodigy

Lv6: Elemental Overflow +2, Internal Buffer +1, Tremorsense

Lv7: Kinetic Prodigy, Focused Element, Rare Metal Infusion, Extra Wild Talent(Magnetic Infusion), Metal Blast


I wouldn't necessarily list compatible races and economical magic items as a strength of any particular archetype, as both of those are secondary to the actual class features. The intention isn't to make the cerebral kineticist stronger than the standard, but keeping them in line with each other would be nice, right?

Even the ability to use gathering power to fuel wild utility powers would be fair, considering how gimped they are in regards to burn. If they aren't incredibly frugal when choosing wild talents with low burns costs, they risk going under much faster than any of the alternatives. That doesn't seem like something I would expect out of a class with INT as a primary attribute.

Also, please don't mistake my blunt comments as me trying to be rude. Everything I say is meant only as constructive criticism, and my manner of speaking doesn't necessarily lend itself very well to conveying that across the internet.

Edit: I think the real solution is somewhere in gathering power. Fight smarter, not harder seems like the way to go, so we need to think of a way to give them an advantage via planning ahead. Maybe let them hold a charge for gathering power for an extra period of time? It wouldn't be overly powerful considering an errant magic missile could put them in a coma if they go too hard with it.

Silver Crusade

Azten wrote:
Made a quick Earth Scion oread that likes being up close and bashing heads in. Using Kinetic Prodigy and Extra Wild Talent at 7th level really brings some pain. ^^

That actually looks pretty fun, I've always loved the idea of a 'basher' earth kineticist, it's why I wanted to give them a slam attack in the first place.

IwearSILLYhats wrote:

I wouldn't necessarily list compatible races and economical magic items as a strength of any particular archetype, as both of those are secondary to the actual class features. The intention isn't to make the cerebral kineticist stronger than the standard, but keeping them in line with each other would be nice, right?

Even the ability to use gathering power to fuel wild utility powers would be fair, considering how gimped they are in regards to burn. If they aren't incredibly frugal when choosing wild talents with low burns costs, they risk going under much faster than any of the alternatives. That doesn't seem like something I would expect out of a class with INT as a primary attribute.

Also, please don't mistake my blunt comments as me trying to be rude. Everything I say is meant only as constructive criticism, and my manner of speaking doesn't necessarily lend itself very well to conveying that across the internet.

When designing something like this, you have to take into account all variables, or at least as many as you're aware of. The racial one is a tad weak (although it does open up options), but the monetary benefit is far larger, and something that has to be accounted for with design, or else you get things that combo with too many other things and they become just too much to deal with.

I can't do a lot to change KOP anymore, but I will take your comments under advisement for the next project I plan on doing with the kineticist. I'm...happy enough with Cerebral, but if I'm being honest, it's probably my least favorite of the 4 (favorite being Kinetict Duelist, I seriously love it.)

And don't worry, I didn't take any of this as aggressive and I appreciate your interest in what I've written. Getting feedback is always helpful, and yours has been quite useful in making a better product for both yourself and the community. So always feel free to speak your mind to me about my guides or my supplements, and I'll be sure to listen to you and take your feedback into consideration.


N. Jolly wrote:

It's basically working like guidance, so it's just a +1 bonus as a standard action that's expended when used.

For mending, I'd say it still takes ten minutes myself, I feel like dropping it to a standard action might be too much although I'm willing to discuss this if others think it would be okay.
I'll probably put an errata link on this thread later in case there's any errata or FAQ I need to list. If/when I do the followup supplement, it'll probably be proper to talk about that here as well.

I'm just going off the fact that when you're talking about reversing time on an object to fix it... In movies and such that is done fairly quickly, and doesn't seem to take the focus and such that casting a spell to fix an object would take. But, I guess you were not wanting to mess with the spell too much. Just seems like it's a bit lacking compared to some of the other basic talents. *shrug* Your prerogative though. It's still great.


I very nearly took that talent! Bleeding Infusion was just too nice.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

N. Jolly, just thought I'd say that you're awesome.

Silver Crusade

Xelaaredn wrote:
I'm just going off the fact that when you're talking about reversing time on an object to fix it... In movies and such that is done fairly quickly, and doesn't seem to take the focus and such that casting a spell to fix an object would take. But, I guess you were not wanting to mess with the spell too much. Just seems like it's a bit lacking compared to some of the other basic talents. *shrug* Your prerogative though. It's still great.

Trust me, I'd LOVE to make everything cinematic, I'm all for cool things like that. If there was some middle ground between 10 mins and 1 round that'd work better, I'd probably go with it. I could even see it taking a minute, something like where you just hold something and eventually mend it back together.

Thinking about it, for the time being I am going to say the mending is a standard action, I can't think of a lot of situations where it'd be broken, and it's a small buff.

Also as a side I've checked out your homebrew too and thought it was pretty cool. I don't know if I'll ever get around to doing a 'bone' element since I've seen there's some noise for some, but what you came up with is very interesting. Hit me up if you ever want to talk design.

Azten wrote:

I very nearly took that talent! Bleeding Infusion was just too nice.

N. Jolly, just thought I'd say that you're awesome.

Bleeding felt like another 'why doesn't it exist' infusion. I find it funny, in Malwing's review on their blog, they talked about how many things I wrote seem like they should have been packaged with the class.

Also thanks, it's always nice knowing that you're appreciated. I always like writing things that'll help out the community; from guides to 3p products, and I always want people to know that they're free to talk to me about anything. If you want to ask me about anything specifically, check out my AMA thread and ask whatever, and I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible.


In regard to using gather power to reduce the burn of wild talents, I'd be quite wary of it. Kinetic Healer would need to taken into consideration.

Also, wouldn't mind a way to make a character from this picture with a decent archetype. Looks bad@ss.


N. Jolly wrote:


Also as a side I've checked out your homebrew too and thought it was pretty cool. I don't know if I'll ever get around to doing a 'bone' element since I've seen there's some noise for some, but what you came up with is very interesting. Hit me up if you ever want to talk design.

Hmm? I've homebrewed a few things but... I don't recall doing anything regarding bone specifically. I've worked on trying to make the Shadowcaster from 3.5 to translate well into Pathfinder and a few other things that I still don't feel happy with yet.

Perhaps mistaking me for someone else?

Either way, I understand the problems with trying to balance function, cimatics and people's need/desire to power game.

Speaking of homebrew, and not going to link and derail a thread, I've come across someone trying to get the kineticist to work for 5e.

Silver Crusade

Xelaaredn wrote:

Hmm? I've homebrewed a few things but... I don't recall doing anything regarding bone specifically. I've worked on trying to make the Shadowcaster from 3.5 to translate well into Pathfinder and a few other things that I still don't feel happy with yet.

Perhaps mistaking me for someone else?

Either way, I understand the problems with trying to balance function, cimatics and people's need/desire to power game.

Speaking of homebrew, and not going to link and derail a thread, I've come across someone trying to get the kineticist to work for 5e.

GDI, I did have you confused, sorry about that. I never much got into the shadowcaster myself, but that was near the end of 3.5 and I was all TOB crazy then.

I myself have a strong desire to powergame, I love seeing pieces come together to make more than the sum of their parts, and I want to give tools for that, but nothing that blows it all out of the water.

I could see Kineticist being fun in 5e (I've played a game or so), but burn feels like it'd be REALLY difficult to incorporate, I could see that being just abolished for a more simple mechanic, especially for that system and its smaller numbers.


Again, without going too much into it, for each point of burn you reduce your hp by 1, not per level or anything. You also get half of the lost ho back after a short reat. It's odd, but so far it... kinda looks like it'll work with how 5e does things. Need to theory craft a bit more with it.


Xelaaredn wrote:
Again, without going too much into it, for each point of burn you reduce your hp by 1, not per level or anything. You also get half of the lost ho back after a short reat. It's odd, but so far it... kinda looks like it'll work with how 5e does things. Need to theory craft a bit more with it.

Hate my phone... *hp. *rest

Though certain things are done fairly poorly and some things got changed kinda unnecessarily. Like wings of air not being permenant flight for example.


The HP thing sounds a lot like how Star Wars D20 did it. A system I look at a lot for Kineticists ideas.

Silver Crusade

Xelaaredn wrote:
Xelaaredn wrote:
Again, without going too much into it, for each point of burn you reduce your hp by 1, not per level or anything. You also get half of the lost ho back after a short reat. It's odd, but so far it... kinda looks like it'll work with how 5e does things. Need to theory craft a bit more with it.

Hate my phone... *hp. *rest

Though certain things are done fairly poorly and some things got changed kinda unnecessarily. Like wings of air not being permenant flight for example.

Like I said, it's hard to convert something like that across a system, but 5e is lower on the fantasy ladder, so I can see why they made changes like that.

But yeah, a kinetic conversion to 5e should probably be talked about in a different thread. I find it funny that the thread made to stem the off topic chatter is itself already getting off topic.


I don't think this got covered in the other thread, but forgive me if I just missed it. I'm looking over Kinetic Fist and had some questions about how it interacts with some stuff from your book.

Kinetic Fist deals 1d6 damage per 3 dice of damage your kinetic blast deals.

Do you think that should change based on the die size of your kinetic blast? Sono- and Chronokinetics deal d4s instead of d6s, while Elemental Scions increase their damage dice to d8s and then to d10s.

I'm not sure it's a huge deal to just leave Kinetic Fist at d6, but that makes it somewhat better for Sound and Time, but worse for Elemental Scions. I was just curious whether you had any thoughts on that.

Silver Crusade

wynterknight wrote:

I don't think this got covered in the other thread, but forgive me if I just missed it. I'm looking over Kinetic Fist and had some questions about how it interacts with some stuff from your book.

Kinetic Fist deals 1d6 damage per 3 dice of damage your kinetic blast deals.

Do you think that should change based on the die size of your kinetic blast? Sono- and Chronokinetics deal d4s instead of d6s, while Elemental Scions increase their damage dice to d8s and then to d10s.

I'm not sure it's a huge deal to just leave Kinetic Fist at d6, but that makes it somewhat better for Sound and Time, but worse for Elemental Scions. I was just curious whether you had any thoughts on that.

I would say it is affected by the base dice of your blast since originally there was no reduced or increased size dice for kineticist.

Sonic/Chrono will do d4s, and elemental scions will do d8/10s with kinetic fistin since I feel the purpose was to have it relate to the die being used.

EDIT: The guide has been updated with Mort's new ratings for the updated archetypes as well as feats.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Congratulations to N. Jolly on his work on this and making it to the #1 on the Top Downloads from Other Companies list this week.

Silver Crusade

Purple Duck Games wrote:
Congratulations to N. Jolly on his work on this and making it to the #1 on the Top Downloads from Other Companies list this week.

Aw, that's awesome! I want to thank Mark for letting me do dumb stuff with this book, Perry for putting in like a hundred semi colons I forgot, and definitely The Mortonator for helping me with ideas and such, they have been a huge help on this and the new project I'm working on!


Congratulations!

Archetype Idea:
Kineticist that can't gather power normally, so no flashy 20-ft radius of I'M RIGHT HERE DOING SOMETHING, but instead from kinetic energy made when she moves. Move Action(the full base speed, not just 10ft), Double Move or Charge(again, the full distance you can move) for 2, and Run(same thing here) for 3 points of burn negated.

Silver Crusade

Azten wrote:

Congratulations!

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks, that idea sounds pretty interesting, but I think Mort can make better use of it than I can. It reminds me of the old 3.5 scout in how it functions. It's certainly a concept worth trying to incorporate.


Kineticists... don't have many magic items to use. That's something that just struck me.

How about the following?
- A rod for Kinetic Blade/Whip that grants melee weapon enhancements to the Blade/Whip when attacking.

- A gauntlet that does the same thing for Kinetic Fist.

- A pair of gauntlets that grants ranged weapon enhancements to Blasts.


Silver Crusade

JiCi wrote:

Kineticists... don't have many magic items to use. That's something that just struck me.

How about the following?
- A rod for Kinetic Blade/Whip that grants melee weapon enhancements to the Blade/Whip when attacking.

- A gauntlet that does the same thing for Kinetic Fist.

- A pair of gauntlets that grants ranged weapon enhancements to Blasts.

The original book did have something like that in mind, but I ended up scrapping it. I really should try to include something like that in the sequel, I do want to include some more magic items to help round out things, so I'll probably work on something like that for the next book.

Also didn't know you could make a post without actually typing something learned something new.


N. Jolly wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Kineticists... don't have many magic items to use. That's something that just struck me.

How about the following?
- A rod for Kinetic Blade/Whip that grants melee weapon enhancements to the Blade/Whip when attacking.

- A gauntlet that does the same thing for Kinetic Fist.

- A pair of gauntlets that grants ranged weapon enhancements to Blasts.

The original book did have something like that in mind, but I ended up scrapping it. I really should try to include something like that in the sequel, I do want to include some more magic items to help round out things, so I'll probably work on something like that for the next book.

Also didn't know you could make a post without actually typing something learned something new.

I bet I know why you had to end up scrapping the AoMF for blasts; same reason I did in Occult: The math. It throws off three different balances. 1) Physical vs. Energy (and in so doing, element balance), 2) Blade/Whip vs. Ranged, 3) Kineticist vs. Other Characters (especially physical melee kineticist or annihilator). That said, since it's something people who don't check the math and just think about what they want think about, I'd say a 3pp book with a disclaimer or warning about these things (like in Secrets of the Masquerade Reveler how I put a disclaimer warning that reveler evolutions are dangerous to allow for regular eidolons, but you can if you want) is actually a great (maybe the best) way to handle it. Eventually, someone who doesn't check the math as much as you did is just going to put one out without a disclaimer (that's what I sometimes worry about myself).


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Kineticists... don't have many magic items to use. That's something that just struck me.

How about the following?
- A rod for Kinetic Blade/Whip that grants melee weapon enhancements to the Blade/Whip when attacking.

- A gauntlet that does the same thing for Kinetic Fist.

- A pair of gauntlets that grants ranged weapon enhancements to Blasts.

The original book did have something like that in mind, but I ended up scrapping it. I really should try to include something like that in the sequel, I do want to include some more magic items to help round out things, so I'll probably work on something like that for the next book.

Also didn't know you could make a post without actually typing something learned something new.

I bet I know why you had to end up scrapping the AoMF for blasts; same reason I did in Occult: The math. It throws off three different balances. 1) Physical vs. Energy (and in so doing, element balance), 2) Blade/Whip vs. Ranged, 3) Kineticist vs. Other Characters (especially physical melee kineticist or annihilator). That said, since it's something people who don't check the math and just think about what they want think about, I'd say a 3pp book with a disclaimer or warning about these things (like in Secrets of the Masquerade Reveler how I put a disclaimer warning that reveler evolutions are dangerous to allow for regular eidolons, but you can if you want) is actually a great (maybe the best) way to handle it. Eventually, someone who doesn't check the math as much as you did is just going to put one out without a disclaimer (that's what I sometimes worry about myself).

I think I know N. Jolly well enough by now to say the math wasn't the reason. XD He does a lot of gut math, but I was the one who sat down and pathed out an ability that pseudo replaces kinetic blade for a DoT.

It's something we are talking about actually design wise right now in terms of our respective content. I'm still a bit timid about my answer to Kinetic Saber as I am calling it. One thing I have done is restrict it to energy only which is kinda a godsend as I only have to balance it against that. I am considering coming up with alternate weapon special qualities to give physical a balancing factor.

But against other characters, I think N. Jolly thinks I am being too conservative, but I'm sold it has to change from touch AC to normal AC. Not that Ifrit care either way (An interaction that HAS to happen.), but I just don't like the math other than to gimp Kinetic Blade into an energy with physical properties. Magical items can cause a ton of abuse, so having a sorta "bad" basis still is balanced in my eyes because you are paying for the eventual combo pieces.

Silver Crusade

The Mortonator wrote:

I think I know N. Jolly well enough by now to say the math wasn't the reason. XD He does a lot of gut math, but I was the one who sat down and pathed out an ability that pseudo replaces kinetic blade for a DoT.

It's something we are talking about actually design wise right now in terms of our respective content. I'm still a bit timid about my answer to Kinetic Saber as I am calling it. One thing I have done is restrict it to energy only which is kinda a godsend as I only have to balance it against that. I am considering coming up with alternate weapon special qualities to give physical a balancing factor.

But against other characters, I think N. Jolly thinks I am being too conservative, but I'm sold it has to change from touch AC to normal AC. Not that Ifrit care either way (An interaction that HAS to happen.), but I just don't like the math other than to gimp Kinetic Blade into an energy with physical properties. Magical items can cause a ton of abuse, so having a sorta "bad" basis still is balanced in my eyes because you are paying for the eventual combo pieces.

It is a lot of gut math on my part, a lot of 'this feels right' style of design that it seems people are at least decently keen on.

For me, the idea fell off when I went to pricing, since as Mar...Rogue Eidolon stated, there has to be some consideration there. I do have a current idea that I'm discussing with Mort, the two of us having different ideas that we're both trying to implement in different ways. Mort is working with their force saber idea (which I like myself), while I'm working on something more like a 'focusing gauntlet/hilt' for mine that won't allow numerical bonuses like Mort's, but instead granting weapon abilities like distance and keen. Mine is more of a support item, while Mort's feels more like a primary offensive tool, which I think is a good balance between the two.

Either way I think both are going to add a lot to the class. I'm as excited about Mort's content as I am about my own, they've got plenty of good ideas that I myself would be entirely unable to implement.


N. Jolly wrote:
For me, the idea fell off when I went to pricing, since as Mar...Rogue Eidolon stated, there has to be some consideration there. I do have a current idea that I'm discussing with Mort, the two of us having different ideas that we're both trying to implement in different ways. Mort is working with their force saber idea (which I like myself), while I'm working on something more like a 'focusing gauntlet/hilt' for mine that won't allow numerical bonuses like Mort's, but instead granting weapon abilities like distance and keen. Mine is more of a support item, while Mort's feels more like a primary offensive tool, which I think is a good balance between the two.

Speaking of, I feel like for Kinetic Fists KoP 2 will be practically required.


Hey Jolly, question: Are time scions as strong as they seem? Once they reach 20th level the burn reduction on their talents means at will time stops and at will time interrupt right? Or am I missing something?

Silver Crusade

Exiled Modron wrote:
Hey Jolly, question: Are time scions as strong as they seem? Once they reach 20th level the burn reduction on their talents means at will time stops and at will time interrupt right? Or am I missing something?

Have you checked out the updated version? They no longer reduce burn on utility wild talents, but they are considered to have accepted 1 burn for effects in relation to using talents (so for things like how quickly suffocate would affect a target and such.) Everywhere should have the updated version available for download, it also has a bit of new content.


N. Jolly wrote:


Have you checked out the updated version? They no longer reduce burn on utility wild talents, but they are considered to have accepted 1 burn for effects in relation to using talents (so for things like how quickly suffocate would affect a target and such.) Everywhere should have the updated version available for download, it also has a bit of new content.

I think I found it, thanks. So it would make Grand Intercession always the extended amount of rounds, but wouldn't reduce the cost of Temporal Interruption right?

Silver Crusade

Exiled Modron wrote:
I think I found it, thanks. So it would make Grand Intercession always the extended amount of rounds, but wouldn't reduce the cost of Temporal Interruption right?

Yeah, for things like Auditory Hallucination, they could last without concentration for the duration, while temporal intercession would still cost burn since it has an initial burn cost, and not the ability to accept burn to make it better.

Also for those wanting information on KOP 2, all I can say is I agree with Mort on the value of kinetic fist. Let's just say Kinetic fist is going to get a very...visceral element to pair itself with.

Also yes, there will FINALLY be an acid blast. If you check back through KOP, everything that mentions an element also includes acid, so no need to errata anything to work with this new blast. And no, earth is not getting an acid blast.


Is it a fire and water composite blast?

Silver Crusade

Azten wrote:
Is it a fire and water composite blast?

It is not, acid will be a new simple blast for a new element being worked on as we speak. Right now something a bit more arcane is being worked on, but I think it'll provide a lot of interesting moments for roleplay as well as helping some people get in touch with their scalier side.

Shadow Lodge

Sweet. I sense dragon-y goodness coming~


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Sweet. I sense dragon-y goodness coming~

*hums Skyrim theme*

Shadow Lodge

I pray it's nothing like that. Only real Dragonborn are the race, not the misnamed soul-sucking Mary Sue. :p


Dragonborn3 wrote:
I pray it's nothing like that. Only real Dragonborn are the race, not the misnamed soul-sucking Mary Sue. :p

Fair point, I really hope there is some half-dragon flavor to be had here.

...are we allowed to post rude tavern drinking songs about dragon-born?

Silver Crusade

Dragonborn3 wrote:
Sweet. I sense dragon-y goodness coming~

It's a different kind of dragon flavor than a few others were thinking about, but I personally like it and think that it'll offer both a lot of mechanical fun and a lot of role playing value. It's probably the most flavorful archetype I've done yet for the class.


N. Jolly wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Sweet. I sense dragon-y goodness coming~
It's a different kind of dragon flavor than a few others were thinking about, but I personally like it and think that it'll offer both a lot of mechanical fun and a lot of role playing value. It's probably the most flavorful archetype I've done yet for the class.

Natsu?

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