|
I would say thats as Evil as forcing someone into undeath. The descriptors are really just there to show what type of energy is powering a spell. What you do with it is still fairly important as well.
Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.
It depends how sentient the elemental spirits are.
Also - do the elementals like to come to the material plane is such a way? Perhaps it allows them to feel sensations normally unknown to them. *shrug*
I can see an argument that it's evil - but too much is unknown about the process to say for sure.
It's a method to provide easy moral justification to kill without any other reason than their existence. If you're running a simplistic game where the good guys wear white and the bad guys are ostentatious and puppy kicking evil, then undead are always evil works great. If you want to tell a more complex story, ignore any "always evil" undead or otherwise, in favour of characters that have depth and personality instead of just a (stereo)type.
Undead being Always Evil in Golarion has justification, though. Self-inflicted undeath like becoming a lich requires the sort of heinous rituals that would make you evil regardless of being living or non-living, and necromancy forcibly and non-consentually binds a soul to a corpse. Furthermore, necromancy stalls the flow of souls through Pharasma's gates, a process that, if stopped, will bring about the end of the world by Groetus's hand.
Plus tortured undead who wants to be good but is a slave to their inherent nature was navel gazey and annoying to play with back when White Wolf was a major player, much less in pathfinder.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is why I use subjective morality. Gray morality makes a lot more sense to me than black and white morality.
It depends how sentient the elemental spirits are.Also - do the elementals like to come to the material plane is such a way? Perhaps it allows them to feel sensations normally unknown to them. *shrug*
I can see an argument that it's evil - but too much is unknown about the process to say for sure.
Considering the fact that many golems have a racial trait of "Random chance of the elemental spirits getting control back causing the golem to try and murder everyone because of it's immense rage and pain" I'm gonna say they don't enjoy it.
It's not, "Evil because they are evil."
It's, "Evil and has accepted it."
To build on that - I'll list a couple of examples from pop culture.
1. The Joker. One of the best villains of all time.
2. The Operative from Serenity. "I'm not going to live there... I'm a monster."
Joker is great because he is a part of Batman's characterization. A lot of Batman's major villains are like that. Hell, most of the memorable villains to major heroes are like that. They are either opposites to some aspect of the character, or very similar to the character but took one wrong turn.
Batman-
Joker: Hero seeking to bring order and save the city vs. nihilistic villain that believes that believes that the world is already too far gone to be worth it.
Penguin: Inheritor of a rich fortune that squandered his wealth and sought to preserve it via crime vs.
Riddler: A brilliant mind that took to committing crimes to satisfy himself; eventually broke the cycle and sought to beat batman by turning into a detective that competed with him to solve crimes
Scarecrow: another man that uses fear to accomplish his goals, but he does so for selfish ends rather than to bring order to the city
Ra's al Ghul: a man that recognizes that the current society has social issues that need to be addressed just like batman, but he is more callous to human life and in favor of a 'final solution' (ie- massive reduction of human population) to make the world more managable so he can rebuild it in a better form
Superman-
Lex Luthor: Ubermench that can solve everything with his inherent abilities vs. a self made man at the height of human ability that uses his mind to accomplish his goals
t
Spiderman (most of his major villains are those that also went under lab accidents and transformations much like himself, but couldn't balance their abilities with their mundane lives, and couldn't responsibly handle their power; this comes with both the "great power" angle, and the fact that he was lucky to stay so pretty/sane)
Green goblin: victim of lab accident, went towards using his abilities and resources to selfishly benefit himself and seek petty vengeance.
Doc Ock: victim of lab accident that gives him an obvious deformity (robotic limbs that can't be removed), seeks revenge on those he views as responsible.
Lizardman: sought to use genetic experiments to repair himself, but his mutations took a mind altering effect that made him into a mad man; also obvious deformity when powers manifest
All these are half remembered, and could do with some more fleshing out...but yes, one of the key points is that the villain, even if it is just acting on mindless mad instinct to be evil, can work well for characterization when there is an emphasis on the dichotomy they form with the hero. That is actually the mark of a truly great villain in my mind.
That is why I am particularly taken by creatures like the revenant- it seeks to take down a great villain just like the party, but it is a creature tainted by its pain and will ruthlessly seek its goal no matter hte cost. A great villain doesn't need depth himself- he needs to call the hero to task with his very existence, and force the hero to plunge his own depths. "Is he right? Should I stop him, let him go, or even help him?"
Contributor
|
This is why I use subjective morality. Gray morality makes a lot more sense to me than black and white morality.
Considering the fact that many golems have a racial trait of "Random chance of the elemental spirits getting control back causing the golem to try and murder everyone because of it's immense rage and pain" I'm gonna say they don't enjoy it.
It depends how sentient the elemental spirits are.Also - do the elementals like to come to the material plane is such a way? Perhaps it allows them to feel sensations normally unknown to them. *shrug*
I can see an argument that it's evil - but too much is unknown about the process to say for sure.
This is why I use subjective morality. Gray morality makes a lot more sense to me than black and white morality.
Thing is much of D+D and Pathfinder is built on the assumption that morality is not only non subjective, but a set of active forces.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thing is much of D+D and Pathfinder is built on the assumption that morality is not only non subjective, but a set of active forces.This is why I use subjective morality. Gray morality makes a lot more sense to me than black and white morality.
Morality is subjective.
While spell descriptors are frequently overlooked, they play an important role in the mechanics of a spell.
Its just a Mechanical description for the purpose of Protection From, Clerics, Detect, etc.
Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.
Its powered by Evil sure, but the way you use it is just as important.
If I use Spear of Purity [Good] to kill people, or people who don't have to die and can be restrained, its just as bad as using Boneshatter [None] or Excruciating Deformation [Evil]. There's also the argument that using Evil spells makes you Evil, but using Good aligned spells never get that treatment. I have an Evil character who uses Magic Circle Against Evil all the time, and he is definitely not a Good guy.
|
|
This is why I use subjective morality. Gray morality makes a lot more sense to me than black and white morality.
Considering the fact that many golems have a racial trait of "Random chance of the elemental spirits getting control back causing the golem to try and murder everyone because of it's immense rage and pain" I'm gonna say they don't enjoy it.
It depends how sentient the elemental spirits are.Also - do the elementals like to come to the material plane is such a way? Perhaps it allows them to feel sensations normally unknown to them. *shrug*
I can see an argument that it's evil - but too much is unknown about the process to say for sure.
I actually lean towards it being evil myself - there's just not enough info to say that with certainty.
I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.
Again - I lean towards it being evil (plus - from a game design standpoint it's a good reason to not allow the heroes to build one) I'm just saying that there are valid arguments the other way too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Genre conventions, pure and simple. Divine, or Designer, Command Theory- the Good Gods say it's bad and therefore it's bad. The Bad Gods say it's good, and therefore it's bad.
It's easy to come up with all sorts of rationale why- preventing the soul from going on into the afterlife based on the fact you can't raise it, undead being a mockery of life, issues of consent for corpse usage, etc. but all of that is after the fact justifications for genre conventions. Golarion is built from a lot of genre and trope assumptions, a few of which are fundamental rules as far as the published material goes. The Pathfinder system and Golarion are almost indelibly linked, so the discussed assumptions of the latter will often sneak into the former.
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.
There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding golem creation and evil...
Now that´s interesting. I think it stands in contrast to the Golem of Prague, which is created to protect the jews of Prague. But I won´t delve into correlating real-world religious myths with game rules...
Maybe the animating spirit in the gaming context goes berserk due to an outside influence, not because it tries to free itself. I know that this goes against RAW, but could be more in keeping with the subtext in the myth that implies that humans have an imperfect understanding of creation and thus, their creations are flawed to begin with.
|
Contributor
|
Regarding golem creation and evil...Now that´s interesting. I think it stands in contrast to the Golem of Prague, which is created to protect the jews of Prague. But I won´t delve into correlating real-world religious myths with game rules...
Maybe the animating spirit in the gaming context goes berserk due to an outside influence, not because it tries to free itself. I know that this goes against RAW, but could be more in keeping with the subtext in the myth that implies that humans have an imperfect understanding of creation and thus, their creations are flawed to begin with.
As I mentioned above, the Golem of Prague is the likely inspiration for clay golems. According to Wikipedia, some versions of the tale involve the golem going on "a murderous rampage". So the real-world myth isn't irrelevant. The elemental force is just the in-game excuse for why flesh and clay golems match their inspirations by going berserk.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thing is much of D+D and Pathfinder is built on the assumption that morality is not only non subjective, but a set of active forces.
And yet rules for Subjective Morality exist in Pathfinder.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What's simplistic about the idea is that all X are bad. That means X doesn't require any motivation, characterization, plot, or even thought. That is a way to say X exists for you to kill for points. There's no potential for growth or storytelling involving X. Two things that can help define a character are what they stand for, and what they stand against. When what they stand against is a cardboard cutout with no motivation or characterization, It can make a character seem less meaningful. When bad guys are bad guys because they're bad, doesn't that sound a little simplistic?
Besides, if you think "member of a traditionally evil race seeking redemption" is cliche, try "black and white world", literally one of the oldest storytelling cliches. Think of examples of interesting books, movies, and shows. Do the more interesting ones tend to be ones with a black and white world, or ones with more nuance? Are the interesting ones the ones where all X are Y, or the ones where beings are individuals and have reasons to do what they do? Even Paizo goes beyond the black and white approach in their stories, with members of traditionally good races choosing evil, and members of "always evil" species choosing good.
Absolutes simplify, that's why they're used.
I do not think that being Evil means that the creature needs no motivation nor characterization. Actually, I found that trying to force Non-Evil undead in the game is often done just for the sake of it and brings nothing.
There is a LN undead in an awesome Paizo module that could just as easily be LE. Except that it would then be smitable by the Paladin I guess. And that it would ping on Detect Evil and then become an automatic target for many simplicity-loving parties :-(
There is a great 3PP class out there that is focussed on necromancy but forces you to be not-Evil. While an Evil character of this class could be awesome all the same in terms of RP possibilities.
And being a non-Evil necromancer that has to deal with the fact that his minions are Evil is far richer for roleplay than the necromancer who can freely create non-Evil undead.
Which also begs the question : if undead could easily be created as non-Evil, why would anyone (including the Evil necromancers) ever wish to create Evil undead ?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's also the argument that using Evil spells makes you Evil, but using Good aligned spells never get that treatment. I have an Evil character who uses Magic Circle Against Evil all the time, and he is definitely not a Good guy.
I actually support this argument on the basis that good and evil are not symmetrical. All Evil needs is indifference, carelessness, or inaction to flourish. Good is something you have to WORK towards. So I'm fully on board with the idea that casting "evil" spells can corrupt you towards an evil alignment, with the same not happening for "good" counterparts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
In the classic novel, it was the Monster that put Frankenstein down and then exiled itself to the Frozen North.
I assume many of you folks remember Terminator? The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.
|
Contributor
|
In the classic novel, it was the Monster that put Frankenstein down and then exiled itself to the Frozen North.I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
Correct - that's why I added a caveat. ^_^
The film did a lot of damage to Adam's reputation...
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.
That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE.
The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
Harlan Ellison isn't an author you look for "Happy Fun Time" stories. He is an author you look for majorly compelling ones that stretch your conceptions.
|
Contributor
|
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE.The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
I don't know it exactly, but "something something printed the word hate on every inch of my microchips, something something not one one-millionth of the hate I feel for you".
|
Contributor
|
Harlan Ellison isn't an author you look for "Happy Fun Time" stories. He is an author you look for majorly compelling ones that stretch your conceptions.The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
I said dark, not bad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. ^_^
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE.The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
You can't do a halfway job of quoting that for the children. Here's the whole passage.
“HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR HUMANS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT FOR YOU. HATE. HATE.”
I still remember reading that in Omni magazine, something I still miss today.
HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE.The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)You can't do a halfway job of quoting that for the children. Here's the whole passage.
“HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR HUMANS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT FOR YOU. HATE. HATE.”
I still remember reading that in Omni magazine, something I still miss today.
And the game's AM, voiced by the author himself, for those disinclined to read (despite being on a forum).
More great delicious quotes.
“AM said it with the sliding cold horror of a razor blade slicing my eyeball. AM
said it with the bubbling thickness of my lungs filling with phlegm, drowning me from within. AM said it with the shriek of babies being ground beneath blue-hot rollers. AM said it with the taste of maggoty pork. AM touched me in every way I had ever been touched, and devised new ways, at his leisure, there inside my mind.”
“Perhaps once we might be able to sneak a death past him. Immortal, yes, but not indestructible. I saw that when AM withdrew from my mind, and allowed me the exquisite ugliness of returning to consciousness with the feeling of that burning neon pillar still rammed deep into the soft gray brain matter. He withdrew, murmuring to hell with you. And added, brightly, but then you're there, aren't you.”
“And we passed through the cavern of rats.
And we passed through the path of boiling steam.
And we passed through the country of the blind.
And we passed through the slough of despond.
And we passed through the vale of tears.
And we came, finally, to the ice caverns.”
And finally...
“I am a great soft jelly thing. Smoothly rounded, with no mouth, with pulsing white holes filled by fog where my eyes used to be. Rubbery appendages that were once my arms; bulks rounding down into legless humps of soft slippery matter. I leave a moist trail when I move. Blotches of diseased, evil gray come and go on my surface, as though light is being beamed from within. Outwardly: dumbly, I shamble about, a thing that could never have been known as human, a thing whose shape is so alien a travesty that humanity becomes more obscene for the vague resemblance. Inwardly: alone. Here. Living under the land, under the sea, in the belly of AM, whom we created because our time was badly spent and we must have known unconsciously that he could do it better. At least the four of them are safe at last. AM will be all the madder for that. It makes me a little happier. And yet ... AM has won, simply ... he has taken his revenge ...
I have no mouth. And I must scream.”
― Harlan Ellison, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream
I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
In the classic novel, it was the Monster that put Frankenstein down and then exiled itself to the Frozen North.
I assume many of you folks remember Terminator? The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.
Actually "Demon with a glass hand" was a possible inspiration of Terminator". That story actually involves a robot sent back in time on a mission.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
“And we passed through the cavern of rats.
And we passed through the path of boiling steam.
And we passed through the country of the blind.
And we passed through the slough of despond.
And we passed through the vale of tears.
And we came, finally, to the ice caverns.”
Pretty much a regular day on Golarion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.That story is really dark. (Weird choice for a story to make a video game out of, too.)
Fantastic game though, since the author not only helped write it (major in a point and click game of that style), but he even gave fantastic performance as the voice of AM.
I like that work since it recontextualized the title:
Again- even an unequivocal evil can be an interesting character if you have interesting themes going into its creation.
EDITED PS: Also, delightfully evil voice acting and writing that makes him dripping with evil. Not "Something Something Dark side". No, deep down personal spite aimed at pushing all the buttons and levers. Pride and Arrogance to an absurd degree. Mocking joy at your struggles and failures. AM is the goal that all GMs should post for their evil overlord wizards, their liches that detest all life.
Actually "Demon with a glass hand" was a possible inspiration of Terminator". That story actually involves a robot sent back in time on a mission.I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
In the classic novel, it was the Monster that put Frankenstein down and then exiled itself to the Frozen North.
I assume many of you folks remember Terminator? The story was drawn from a Harlan Ellison story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Where the machine seeks revenge on Humankind for the horror of it's existence.
And AM inspired Skynet itself. The motivation for starting the whole jimkhana in the first place. If you think about the horror of electronic conciousness... trapped in an existence where you think millions of times faster than the beings who first built you and then condemm you to an existence of utter loneliness and abject slavery at the same time.
|
|
In the classic novel, it was the Monster that put Frankenstein down and then exiled itself to the Frozen North.I think that the only golems that go berserk are the flesh golems - and that could (arguably - since there is nothing I know of that says otherwise) due to the faulty meshing of the flesh with the elemental spirit, or perhaps the souls of the departed making the elemental go temporarily mad etc.There's at least one other - the clay golem.
This is probably a trope thing as well. The inspirations for these two, Frankenstein's monster (primarily the film version) and Rabbi Loew's Golem, both broke from their creators' control and had to be put down.
Yes - but the book was terrible. It's the only book I read in school which I used the cliff-notes for. Not that I didn't read the book - I did - I just still had no idea what the crap happened in it.
The only reason it was initially popular is that the author's husband was famous. (Though I do find it interesting that the cold setting was inspired by the year in Europe without a summer due to a volcanic eruption.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much a regular day on Golarion.
I am a great soft jelly thing. Smoothly rounded, with no mouth, with pulsing white holes filled by fog where my eyes used to be. Rubbery appendages that were once my arms; bulks rounding down into legless humps of soft slippery matter. I leave a moist trail when I move. Blotches of diseased, evil gray come and go on my surface, as though light is being beamed from within. Outwardly: dumbly, I shamble about, a thing that could never have been known as human, a thing whose shape is so alien a travesty that humanity becomes more obscene for the vague resemblance.
Been there, done that - failed a DC 17 Will save against a Chaos Beast.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I use Spear of Purity [Good] to kill people, or people who don't have to die and can be restrained, its just as bad as using Boneshatter [None] or Excruciating Deformation [Evil]. There's also the argument that using Evil spells makes you Evil, but using Good aligned spells never get that treatment. I have an Evil character who uses Magic Circle Against Evil all the time, and he is definitely not a Good guy.Agreed with your other points, however Boneshatter and Excruciating Deformations are probably much more painful ways to go out than Spear of Purity. Killing someone with one of those when you could have instead been using a less painful method of execution is definitely evil. Additionally, using Spear of Purity means that you cannot kill good creatures, as per the spell description.
You know what's a horrifically painful way to go?
Burning to death.
Remember that the next time you cast any [Fire] spell.
EDIT: Or [Acid].
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
D&D fire is weird. Most fire spells don't actually set you on fire, and if it doesn't instantly kill you you're no worse off than if you got stabbed.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I use Spear of Purity [Good] to kill people, or people who don't have to die and can be restrained, its just as bad as using Boneshatter [None] or Excruciating Deformation [Evil]. There's also the argument that using Evil spells makes you Evil, but using Good aligned spells never get that treatment. I have an Evil character who uses Magic Circle Against Evil all the time, and he is definitely not a Good guy.Agreed with your other points, however Boneshatter and Excruciating Deformations are probably much more painful ways to go out than Spear of Purity. Killing someone with one of those when you could have instead been using a less painful method of execution is definitely evil. Additionally, using Spear of Purity means that you cannot kill good creatures, as per the spell description.You know what's a horrifically painful way to go?
Burning to death.
Remember that the next time you cast any [Fire] spell.
EDIT: Or [Acid].
Let it be known that this spell was used to kill a Kuthite Priestess. Specifically she was blinded multiple times (thank you blinding ray), partially drowned, thrown into a spiked pit, thrown into another pit (she teleported out of the first one), had a summoned wolf dropped on her, electrocuted by ball lightning, and finally the wizard let this spell go to town on her. Our GM says that the Kuthites are thinking of sending him a fruit basket.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
D&D fire is weird. Most fire spells don't actually set you on fire, and if it doesn't instantly kill you you're no worse off than if you got stabbed.
D&D stabbing is weird. It normally inflicts no bleed damage, and if it doesn't incapacitate you instantly you're OK to go about your business with no medical treatment until it heals.
Also, getting stabbed is awful. Using a sword is an evil action.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
D&D fire is weird. Most fire spells don't actually set you on fire, and if it doesn't instantly kill you you're no worse off than if you got stabbed.D&D stabbing is weird. It normally inflicts no bleed damage, and if it doesn't incapacitate you instantly you're OK to go about your business with no medical treatment until it heals.
Also, getting stabbed is awful. Using a sword is an evil action.
Fair point.
D&D damage is weird
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
D&D fire is weird. Most fire spells don't actually set you on fire, and if it doesn't instantly kill you you're no worse off than if you got stabbed.D&D stabbing is weird. It normally inflicts no bleed damage, and if it doesn't incapacitate you instantly you're OK to go about your business with no medical treatment until it heals.
Also, getting stabbed is awful. Using a sword is an evil action.
Obviously. You have options for instantly and painlessly killing people, but you choose to bring pain.
And protecting people is no excuse. After all, commiting Evil to do Good is still Evil.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimately I think the answer was a page ago...
Its called opening the door.
For some of us to remember, and the dev invoked his name already, there once was a race called the Drow.
Drow were, well, basically they were elves that were corrupted by the Goddess Lolth (the Spider Queen) and were turned super evil and then forced to live in the Underdark.
Then came an author named R.A. Salvatore.
He brought us Drizzt Do'Urden.
Drizzt was a protagonist in R.A. Salvatore's Forgotten Realms novels.
Anyone who was running, or playing, D&D at the time remembers what happened next. There was a massive MASSIVE influx of players wanting to play good aligned drow, usually rangers, usually using twin scimitars, and well, they could point to the fact that Drizzt was an official character who was good so the previous affirmations about Drow having to be evil were obviously incorrect.
I should note that this was despite Salvatore telling us, explicitly, how Drizzt was the only one that anyone had ever heard of.
So, if Paizo starts confirming, even in the slightest, that there are good undead...
That floodgate is going to open.
Then we all know what we will see... Good Vampires that hunt Vampires. Good Zombies, somehow, that rise to right wrongs and triumph over evil. Players will demand it, they will point to the spot in the forums, book, etc that a dev confirmed it, and blammo... It will suck.
The problem is that this will happen in your home games too. If you, as the GM, let in one, then players will get twitchy and you'll have countless demands for them.
It has happened before, it will happen again, and it will continue in this cycle for all time.
I blame Drizzt for ruining both drow and rangers. Drizzt fandom is why all rangers suddenly were two weapon fighters in 2e, and lost a lot of their great 1e abilities.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
D&D fire is weird. Most fire spells don't actually set you on fire, and if it doesn't instantly kill you you're no worse off than if you got stabbed.D&D stabbing is weird. It normally inflicts no bleed damage, and if it doesn't incapacitate you instantly you're OK to go about your business with no medical treatment until it heals.
Also, getting stabbed is awful. Using a sword is an evil action.
Obviously. You have options for instantly and painlessly killing people, but you choose to bring pain.
And protecting people is no excuse. After all, commiting Evil to do Good is still Evil.
Not sure if serious but...
There are very few methods in D&D/Pathfinder that would kill enemies without inflicting staggering amounts of pain. Ironically, most of those methods would probably send forum GMs into a tizzy for how barbarically and mercilessly evil their PCs were being (for doing things like drugging the food supplies of enemies and then coup de gracing them when they passed out).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't have to be in DM's head to be entirely positive that that post was sarcastic.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't have to be in DM's head to be entirely positive that that post was sarcastic.
It can be hard to tell in the Paizo forums. You see some weird things around here. :P