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Or should i have the bad guys act with more than a 2 INT.
Here is the deal. Have a vet player. He has a familiar. Celestial bird with a 2 INT that he basically sends out like a Predator drone. Now when the encounters are outside fine no problem but if we are in an enclosed space where you usually do not see something like that is it wrong for me to:
a) Have the bad guys kill the bird
b) Basically Han shooting the control panel and putting the entire cadre of bad guys on alert.
I mean I know we are supposed to run as written but when I feel that a play is both gaming the system and not acting smart. I think the bad guys need to act?
The PFS guide book states that if the PCs do something unexpected, it may invalidate the enemy tactics (the text block that says how they will normally act). If the tactics are invalidated, you are allowed to have them react in undocumented (but realistic) ways.
So if the bird flies into a location not known for flying birds (such as inside a lower level or a stronghold), they certainly will take note of the unusual occurrence. In addition, the celestial creature may be visually distinct. I know that in D&D 3.5, there was flavor text that explicitly noted that celestial creatures were often golden-tinged, or had a glow, or were otherwise perfect or awesome versions of the normal creature. I don't know if Pathfinder kept that text anywhere, but I do know their minis for celestial creatures continue to use gold highlights or shining colors. So if that's the case, then these bad guys will also know, "Whoa, that thing is unique! And certainly not natural or normal for this area!"
How that alerts enemies is up to you. Some might want to capture it and think nothing of what it portends. Some will immediately go on alarm or set up ambushes. Some will attack/kill the creature. Whatever the case, the bottom line is that they are allowed to react. Don't let the player tell you otherwise.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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I tried this tactic in my early pfs-games but slowly dismissed it because my GMs told me that if it is on the board or the inipad it is a valid target -> most of the times i do not use it to scout because of this but sometimes i use it and it does not draw as much attention compared to when i scouted all encounters.
Especially at higher levels where the familiar can literally die without the enemy doing anything (looking at 6 hounds of tindalos etc) you do not have to go out of your way to communicate the danger for the companion.
If i master i try to look at the enemy and figure out how they would act -> some might capture it, some might eat it and some might kill it on sight because they know that everything that is not an ally should not be there and is an enemy.
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Or should i have the bad guys act with more than a 2 INT.
Here is the deal. Have a vet player. He has a familiar. Celestial bird with a 2 INT that he basically sends out like a Predator drone. Now when the encounters are outside fine no problem but if we are in an enclosed space where you usually do not see something like that is it wrong for me to:
a) Have the bad guys kill the bird
b) Basically Han shooting the control panel and putting the entire cadre of bad guys on alert.
I mean I know we are supposed to run as written but when I feel that a play is both gaming the system and not acting smart. I think the bad guys need to act?
For me it depends on the environment.
Outside - quite possibly not noticed or even in noticed, not bothered.
Inside - anyone would try to kill it. Have you ever seen a bird inside a room? The amount of noise it makes. Not to mention the risk of it crapping on the flagstones. At the end of the day - flapping wings large enough and fast enough to move through the air is loud!
What about the fact that a lot of nasty things in the game world like to kill things for fun.
Hang on... A lot of thoroughly pleasant people in this world like to kill things for fun.
If you want a scouting familiar indoors, you had better choose something less conspicuous than a bird.
That really wasn't meant to be controversial - just that I know some nice people who still enjoy hunting - it's a quandry. I was trying not to offend either side of the blood sports argument which would be a massive derailed of this otherwise useful and sensible Thread.
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **[/spoiler]Or should i have the bad guys act with more than a 2 INT.
Here is the deal. Have a vet player. He has a familiar. Celestial bird with a 2 INT that he basically sends out like a Predator drone. Now when the encounters are outside fine no problem but if we are in an enclosed space where you usually do not see something like that is it wrong for me to:
a) Have the bad guys kill the bird
b) Basically Han shooting the control panel and putting the entire cadre of bad guys on alert.
I mean I know we are supposed to run as written but when I feel that a play is both gaming the system and not acting smart. I think the bad guys need to act?
If you put spoiler marks around something, please note what it's a spoiler for.
(Star Wars Spoiler, if anybody wants to know. Not a major one though, I suppose. Haven't seen it yet.)
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Or should i have the bad guys act with more than a 2 INT.
Here is the deal. Have a vet player. He has a familiar. Celestial bird with a 2 INT that he basically sends out like a Predator drone. Now when the encounters are outside fine no problem but if we are in an enclosed space where you usually do not see something like that is it wrong for me to:
a) Have the bad guys kill the bird
b) Basically Han shooting the control panel and putting the entire cadre of bad guys on alert.
I mean I know we are supposed to run as written but when I feel that a play is both gaming the system and not acting smart. I think the bad guys need to act?
I don't quite know what you're asking. As I understand a Predator drone is a lot bigger than a human and carries missiles.
Is the bird attacking people (or flanking/threatening/shooting missiles/doing other combat stuff)? In that case it certainly becomes a target.
Is it just doing a flyover to scout? In that case it depends on several things.
- Do the bad guys even notice the bird? Ask the player if the bird is attempting stealth. Keep in mind distance penalties to NPCs' Perception as well as to the bird's Perception. If the player wants the close-up view he has to take more risks.
- Do the bad guys realize the bird is abnormal? Indoors that could certainly be a thing. Outdoors NPCs might be able to roll Knowledge Nature checks to determine if the bird is normal for the environment. They're probably not paranoid enough to waste high-level spells on random wildlife etc.
The OP said it was indoors. See my comments on stealth.
There is a whole trope of birds studying people and really wiggling then out. Particularly Ravens.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Or should i have the bad guys act with more than a 2 INT.
Here is the deal. Have a vet player. He has a familiar. Celestial bird with a 2 INT that he basically sends out like a Predator drone. Now when the encounters are outside fine no problem but if we are in an enclosed space where you usually do not see something like that is it wrong for me to:
a) Have the bad guys kill the bird
b) Basically Han shooting the control panel and putting the entire cadre of bad guys on alert.
I mean I know we are supposed to run as written but when I feel that a play is both gaming the system and not acting smart. I think the bad guys need to act?I don't quite know what you're asking. As I understand a Predator drone is a lot bigger than a human and carries missiles.
Is the bird attacking people (or flanking/threatening/shooting missiles/doing other combat stuff)? In that case it certainly becomes a target.
Is it just doing a flyover to scout? In that case it depends on several things.
- Do the bad guys even notice the bird? Ask the player if the bird is attempting stealth. Keep in mind distance penalties to NPCs' Perception as well as to the bird's Perception. If the player wants the close-up view he has to take more risks.
- Do the bad guys realize the bird is abnormal? Indoors that could certainly be a thing. Outdoors NPCs might be able to roll Knowledge Nature checks to determine if the bird is normal for the environment. They're probably not paranoid enough to waste high-level spells on random wildlife etc.
It's a celestial familiar. (I did not realize there was a feat to get a celestial familiar.) Assuming it fails or is not trying to make it's stealth check, a DC 10 nature check should tell you that it is not a normal bird. Now, outdoors, most bad guys are probably not trying to ID every single bird they see. But anyone who A.) hunts for their survival, B.) is worried about being observed, or C.) likes to kill things for fun is probably going to take enough notice to make a free action knowledge check ID monster on it unless there are a *lot* of other birds around, and assuming they take 10 and haven't dumped INT, is going to know it is not normal.
As for too mean, a familiar is a very squishy Achilles heal, mages and witches should keep them safe. (Barbarian's familiars, on the other hand, often have more hit points and better ACs than most mages and can safely be deployed in combat. Neil's familiar was frequently targeted, and has been killed twice (once because I forgot familiars get evasion.) Though Neil insists she wasn't killed, she just returned to Groetus to report how glorious Neil is and how worthy he is to be uplifted to deification at the end of the world. The fact that she looks distinctly different each time she comes back is entirely irrelevant.)
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When it is outside I do checks and stuff. Inside no It is usually auto seen as he specifically says he is using it to scout . Add to the fact it has an Int of 2. Even with stealth it is going to not be that good of a scout. I really think after 4-5 times he should start to have trouble getting them. Plus does it not cost gold to call a familiar?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Then you are being mean, and not following the rules.
It's a familiar, right?
That means it is a magical beast with 6 int at first level, +1 per 2 levels and an empathic link to the caster. By 5th level, it can speak with the caster. It is an *excellent* scout. Assuming a raven it can even speak from level 1. But an owl would be even a better scout.
For Owl at size Tiny, Dex 17, racial +4 it has a stealth of +15 in addition to any ranks it's master has +3 for class skill. That means tht with a couple of ranks it is as stealthy as someone who is invisible but not terribly skilled. It should not be an autospot unless it is doing things like opening doors or crossing completely empty rooms in full view of the enemy. And since it is Int 6, it should know better than to do that.
Assuming all it does is peak its head around doors till it is sure the room is empty, and uses cover, it is going to be +19 to stealth with a single skill point. take ten means you need a 29 to spot it, and since 20 is not an auto success, that means anything with a perception less than +9 *cannot* succeed.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Assuming all it does is peak its head around doors till it is sure the room is empty, and uses cover, it is going to be +19 to stealth with a single skill point. take ten means you need a 29 to spot it, and since 20 is not an auto success, that means anything with a perception less than +9 *cannot* succeed.Except that it must be able to find cover or concealment in order to maintain stealth. I find a lot of people seem to think all you need is to make a stealth check but stealth doesn't work like that. Also indoors a tiny raven is going to have trouble going anywhere there is a closed door.
Hence "assuming it does not cross completely empty rooms."
yes, a tiny bird is going to have real problems with doors. On the flip side, almost anything is cover to a tiny bird. And it doesn't have to stay in cover the entire time, it just has to have cover at the beginning and end of each move. So doorway, to under table, to under side board, to behind chair counts, even if the area between those is out of cover.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It is a Thrush. I am looking at the template in Ultimate Magic. It has an INT of 2. Please show me where it gets a boot to its Int and the increase. I want to make sure I am doing it right. It has no Stealth skill
Plus hover checks
Go read the rules on wizard familiars.
Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar's kind, but with the following changes.
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
There is also a table for other abilities the familiar gets, including int 6 (+1 for every 2 levels after 1) natural armor bonus (+1 per two levels) and several supernatural abilities.
Also, even without ranks in stealth, a thrush has +10. (+4 per size less than medium, +2 for dex)
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It is a Thrush. I am looking at the template in Ultimate Magic. It has an INT of 2. Please show me where it gets a boot to its Int and the increase. I want to make sure I am doing it right. It has no Stealth skill
Plus hover checks
Look in the Core Rulebook under Familiars.
Also, Stealth is a skill that can be used untrained.
And Int has no bearing on one's ability to use Stealth. Tigers have Int 2.
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found it . Okay still INT 6 is what a Int of a small child?
Int 6 is higher than the Int of a Morlock, and those are monsters who are sort of built around Stealth and sneaking.
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Okay bet he is sending it out to scout in places he would not be normally seen in. As I said when it is a natural place for him to be seen in I have no problem. It is when it is say underground or in an extra planer zone.
It is perfectly acceptable that when monsters encounter this strange bird that seems out of place that they react.
He should still be allowed to make Stealth checks, and such. If you apply penalties because it is underground, or because he is hovering, or stuff like that, then you are being a jerk—none of that is supported by the rules. If you are playing it straight up, and the bad guys still see the bird and attack, then that's fine.
A familiar is a class feature. It can be incredibly powerful, but using it to its full extent comes with a certain amount of risk. Let your players use their class features. They chose those because they thought it would be fun to play that way. :)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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It should be noted that a familiar is a magical beast, so Knowledge Arcana to figure out that the Thrush is a familiar. The DC 10 Knowledge Nature would only say not a normal animal.
You probably want to review the Stealth rules. The creature trying to remain undetected has to move from one position with either cover or concealment to another. Spending a round in plain sight cancels stealth.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Sorry. I am not trying to be aggressive. I am a little upset that you would have it act in a way that gets it killed without looking up the rules for what a familiar is. Among other things, if you have killed his familiar "4 or 5" times, that is somewhere between 800 and 5000 gold pieces. (Familiars are 200 go / level to replace.).
The familiar needs to have its own character sheet, which the player should be providing. You can't run it off the animal Sta block, there are too many changes. (it gets its masters base saves, half its masters hit points for starters, so if he is a cross class 5th level character, that is probably somewhere over 15 hp, as opposed to 2.)
As a second level caster, it has an INT of 6 but as a thrush it has a WIS of 15. So that means it has an education on a level with a slightly stupid barbarian, and a decision making and judgement better than many clerics. It also has all his ranks in knowledge skills, even if it doesn't get his stat and class skill bonuses. It should be very good scout.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@captnchuck67
Aside from the scouting bird bit, don't forget area effect spells for the familiar or if it is in the radius of a swarm, etc.
Not as important at low levels, but very important at high. I've almost lost my seeker's familiar twice from AOE. Fortunately being a celestial and a good reflex save forgives a number of sins. :-)
Oh and if the encounter with the familar goes like this you're doing it wrong.
Funny, but wrong.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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@captnchuck67
Aside from the scouting bird bit, don't forget area effect spells for the familiar or if it is in the radius of a swarm, etc.
Not as important at low levels, but very important at high. I've almost lost my seeker's familiar twice from AOE. Fortunately being a celestial and a good reflex save forgives a number of sins. :-)
Oh and if the encounter with the familar goes like this you're doing it wrong.
Funny, but wrong.
This is why familiar pouches are important :)
I think it makes a useful scout but it shouldn't be an auto-send round every corner a down every hallway. Because of the noise of a flying creature inside I would consider applying the -5 move penalty to any flying indoors unless it is already noisy - machinery, shouting crowd etc. As I said, while they are small birds wings are noisy.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If you use your familiar in combat, it is fair game to attack it (and as others have mentioned some effects will affect it without an attack roll).
In this case the player should have stated the bird properly, and the usual rules for familiar should have been applied.
People make mistakes, it happens, especially with a new GM (and often veteran players aren't perfect either).
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It should be noted that a familiar is a magical beast, so Knowledge Arcana to figure out that the Thrush is a familiar. The DC 10 Knowledge Nature would only say not a normal animal.
You probably want to review the Stealth rules. The creature trying to remain undetected has to move from one position with either cover or concealment to another. Spending a round in plain sight cancels stealth.
Actually, it is not a magical beast. It is only treated like one for effects.
"A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type."
Normally doesn't matter, but it is what it is.
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Familiars can be pretty hardy, especially improved ones. Had a Lyrakien nearly survive two large lighting elementals, she didn't die but did go unconscious. I could have saved her if I remembered to have her use the wand of vanish she carries.
But yes, this really seems more a case of lacking in the rules knowledge department and is easily solved by reading said rules and discussing the rules with the player in question.
But to answer some of the questions you asked... a bird is not going to alert a group of guys that a party of adventurers are coming. Though, if it is wearing magical items/armor then it is obviously not a normal critter. But that still wouldn't be enough to roust an entire complex, normally.
If said bad guys are likely to kill things merely because they are living, then yah, have them try to kill it. But if they are guarding something they probably would not leave their area to chase a random bird.
Mostly just think about how the NPCs would react given their situation. A hungry troll might chase it until it figures out it can't outrun the bird. But a soldier might just attack it till it is no longer in his area.
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I think it makes a useful scout but it shouldn't be an auto-send round every corner a down every hallway. Because of the noise of a flying creature inside I would consider applying the -5 move penalty to any flying indoors unless it is already noisy - machinery, shouting crowd etc. As I said, while they are small birds wings are noisy.
If a creature has a high Stealth bonus, that means it doesn't make a lot of noise while flying. That's what the whole Stealth bonus is all about.
Owls have very large wings and can fly nearly silently.
Tigers weigh hundreds of pounds and are experts at walking quietly, even in dry grass.
Applying a penalty just because you think the creature shouldn't have such a high bonus is unfair to the players. The –5 penalty for movement applies when a creature is moving at greater than half its speed.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think it makes a useful scout but it shouldn't be an auto-send round every corner a down every hallway. Because of the noise of a flying creature inside I would consider applying the -5 move penalty to any flying indoors unless it is already noisy - machinery, shouting crowd etc. As I said, while they are small birds wings are noisy.
If a creature has a high Stealth bonus, that means it doesn't make a lot of noise while flying. That's what the whole Stealth bonus is all about.
Owls have very large wings and can fly nearly silently.
Tigers weigh hundreds of pounds and are experts at walking quietly, even in dry grass.
Applying a penalty just because you think the creature shouldn't have such a high bonus is unfair to the players. The –5 penalty for movement applies when a creature is moving at greater than half its speed.
Also, -5 is a ridiculous penalty. That would be equal to the bird moving around in plate mail.
As for how quiet birds are, my google foo was having trouble finding a sound recording of a thrush in flight, but my personal experience is that small birds are actually fairly quiet while flying, unless flying in cages, which involves as much cage noise as anything. My decibel chart lists birds flying as 30 db, or ten times quieter than a soft conversation, but ten times louder than a watch ticking.
So unless the bird is moving at full speed, no, it should not have a stealth penalty. (And most birds should easily be able to make the flight check for flying half speed.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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It should be noted that a familiar is a magical beast, so Knowledge Arcana to figure out that the Thrush is a familiar. The DC 10 Knowledge Nature would only say not a normal animal.Actually, it is not a magical beast. It is only treated like one for effects.
"A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type."
Normally doesn't matter, but it is what it is.
Although it may be good to know, I'm not sure that technicality changes the result in this case.
Identifying a creature depends on it's type. You use a different skill depending on the type of the creature.
It seems to me it is still a Knowledge: Arcana to identify it as a familiar.
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General rule: if you need to ask if you're being mean, you're probably being mean.
I don't think he is in this case. People tend to freak out when there's a critter inside the house, and that's in our world where the critters are relatively safe*, not blood sucking stirges* or transformed peeping druids **. "Lets kill it!" is a sadly common Reaction. Followed closely by "EEEEEEEEEEEP! An ______" and then by "Aww how'd you get in here little guy" *net* BOrrrRRRRRRRRn FreeeEEEEEeee". Even if you regularly open your door to this you're going to want to shoo them out before they poop.
I worked at a park that had a lot of city folk at it and even in a place you expect to run into animals people went nuts at anything other than a squirrel coming near them. I got clocked in the head with a water bottle getting a 6 foot black rat snake off the pool deck where he was trying to get his tan on.
*offer not valid in australia
**or florida
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Contributor
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General rule: if you need to ask if you're being mean, you're probably being mean.I don't think he is in this case. People tend to freak out when there's a critter inside the house, and that's in our world where the critters are relatively safe*, not blood sucking stirges* or transformed peeping druids **. "Lets kill it!" is a sadly common Reaction.
I worked at a park that had a lot of city folk at it and even in a place you expect to run into animals people went nuts at anything other than a squirrel coming near them. I got clocked in the head with a water bottle getting a 6 foot black rat snake off the pool deck where he was trying to get his tan on.
*offer not valid in australia
**or florida
Your job as a GM isn't to create a realistic environment where people act 100% like people do in our world. Your job as a GM is to create a FUN environment for everyone at the table, and killing off familiars isn't fun for the player; its a punishment, plain and simple.
Because frankly, saying "This is how people would/should react," is nothing more than a poor man's buffer against retaliation against jerk behavior. Not only do different people react differently in different situations, rendering all attempts at generalization pointless, but our observations of how the people of a no-magic setting (AKA Earth) react in certain situations is not a fair observation of how the people of a high-magic settling (AKA Golarion) should act. This is like saying that racism should exist in Golarion because it exists on our Low-Magic Earth, even though bigotry deprives players who experience hate every day of their escapism.
Hence my opening remark: Your job as GM isn't to create a fantasy environment that is true to our experiences in reality. Your job as GM is to create a fun game, and if you're punishing the players of a fantasy game for doing fantastic things because of real world assumptions, then you're not making the game fun and are therefore failing as a GM.
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Your job as a GM isn't to create a realistic environment where people act 100% like people do in our world. Your job as a GM is to create a FUN environment for everyone at the table, and killing off familiars isn't fun for the player; its a punishment, plain and simple.
Part of the fun is an element of danger and suspense. A critter able to scout with no fear of being killed caught or captured removes that. It also runs the risk of stepping on other party members toes, because you can bet that if the rogue scouts out ahead of the party and gets seen he's going to be accosted.
As to the familiar often dying, if its a familiar it SHOULD get to the point where it turns to the wizard and says. "Yeah, look boss, I'm beaky number what... 5? I may only have a 10 int but I've got a reasonable wisdom score, and I know that you simply do NOT go into an enclosed space that probably harbors dozens of humanoids that think I taste great and make a good looking hat. YOU don't send me on suicide missions, and I'll stop leaving presents in your slippers every morning. Deal?"
Because frankly, saying "This is how people would/should react," is nothing more than a poor man's buffer against retaliation against jerk behavior.
Part of a DM's job is having the NPCs react to unforeseen circumstances based on limited information.
A jerk DM would have the tactic fail even when it should be perfectly safe. Not have it work when it should reasonably do so.
Not only do different people react differently in different situations, rendering all attempts at generalization pointless, but our observations of how the people of a no-magic setting (AKA Earth) react in certain situations is not a fair observation of how the people of a high-magic settling (AKA Golarion) should act.
If the people involved were nice enough to catch and release helpless wildlife we'd probably feel bad for killing them and looting them of artifacts.
This is like saying that racism should exist in Golarion because it exists on our Low-Magic Earth, even though bigotry deprives players who experience hate every day of their escapism.
Already answered. Golarion should make people absolutely paranoid about "harmless wildlife."
Hence my opening remark: Your job as GM isn't to create a fantasy environment that is true to our experiences in reality. Your job as GM is to create a fun game, and if you're punishing the players of a fantasy game for doing fantastic things because of real world assumptions, then you're not making the game fun and are therefore failing as a GM.
Not every expectation of a player is reasonable. Sometimes you have to say no.
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Critter doesn't need cover for the whole corridor. It just needs a corner to hide behind. It can look down the hallway. If it is empty, it continues up to the next corner. And so on. This allows it to make a Stealth check.
If you are applying a penalty to the Stealth roll because you think that Critter shouldn't have such a high Stealth bonus, you are being a jerk.
But if you are rolling it straight, which includes giving the enemies a penalty for distance (–1/10 ft.), then Critter is fair game (no pun intended) if he is spotted.