In your opinion, what class combinations (of four) are most likely to ROFL-stomp nearly any Paizo published adventure path or module?
I'm thinking a quartet of summoners; or a cleric, kineticist, summoner, and wizard.
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This is a tough question because so many things can work depending on how they are built.
If I were to make an ideal team for every scenario it would be:
Arcane Duelist Bard (Frontline, strength based skills, secondary face, inspire courage and feats that can be applied to him make him a fantastic buffer too) Substitutes: Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, etc
Zen Archer Monk (Damage Dealer, secondary front line combatant, amazing wisdom based skills) Substitutes: Rogue, Inquisitor, Kineticist, etc
Psychic - (Great buffing/debuffing/mind affecting spell list, all knowledge skills as class skills) Substitute: Arcanist, Sage Sorcerer, Wizard, etc
Oracle - pick your poison on archtype and mystery to fill any holes you are missing (can cover blasting/battlefield control/buffing/divine casting in general, and primary face) Substitute: Cleric, Bard
The other option for a great team to handle all scenarios: 4 Bard
Arcane Duelist (frontline)/Archaeologist (Frontline)
Thundercaller (blaster)/Fire Dancer (blaster)
Song Healer (healer)
Lotus Geisha (battle field control)
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Half-orc Primalist Spelleater Bloodrager w/ Arcane Bloodline, Evangelist Cleric w/ Focus on summoning and Heroism Domain, Witch w/ Time Patron (haste and Time stop....Unlimited Hex usage), and a Zen Archer Monk
or
Switch Hitter Ranger (with Boon Companion), Oath of Vengeance Paladin, Skald, and Occultist Arcanist (I call it the Rage Party. All the raged Summons/Pets and a Raging Paladin too)
But I will Be honest the Half-orc Primalist Bloodrager w/ Arcane Bloodline after level 8 can solo a majority of AP encounters...I was actually asked to retire him due to the group feeling it was OP and outshining the entire party...to the point they just stood there and watched him Crit wreck bosses with a Falchion. Level 9 while hasted I got lucky and did 3 critical in a row for roughly 200ish damage and the DM just said enough of this f-ing character I want him retired before you get Come and Get me at 12.
What level?
It's got to cover the range of published Paizo adventures, so pretty much any/all levels.
...while hasted I got lucky and did 3 critical in a row for roughly 200ish damage and the DM just said "enough of this f-ing character I want him retired before you get Come and Get me at 12."
What a big baby! Sorry you had to go through that.
Shoot, Summoner x4 is already taken. Well, since that's taken I'm going to go with: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Summoner. Two pet classes, all casting power, no mercy.
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I like to go half orc worth a level dip in fighter(unbreakable). This allows them to get diehard and endurance and qualify for deathless initiate and master and all that. Then, you'll drop when you have 50 arrows in your back, and five swords!
Half-orc can get Endurance Feat as a alternate Racial. So the "Dip" isn't that Necessary. And Deathless Feat chain is is pretty lackluster for a 5 feat chain.
Pretty sure a Spirit Binder Wizard with a Crab Paladin (Crabadin?) will solo pretty much anything you find in an AP.
Alchemist, Arcanist, Druid, and Cleric.
^And so what's a Warpriest supposed to be for again?
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The skill player
Grenadier Alchemist: Thanks to alchemical weapon, you've got great debuffing to combine with bomb debuffing, and you've got tons of skills and amazing extracts that normally wouldn't be able to target a party member (self only stuff), making them amazing. Supporting the diviner wizard, you won't have opponents on their feet long enough to be a problem.
The strength player
Switch Hitter Paladin: Ranged smite is amazing, and two handed smite is amazing. You've got a front liner who can smash people into pieces with the ability to hang back at a range and pelt them just as easily, having access to amazing spells and self healing. Really your premiere front liner for most encounters.
The controller player
Diviner Wizard: With the ability to almost never fail initiative, you're starting off every combat strong and ready to go, as well as having the entire wiz/sorc spell list to fall back on in case thing get dicey. Throw in a +4 init familiar and you're already won. And when you haven't, the alchemist can pick up the slack.
The support player
Vanilla Cleric: There's nothing special that you need to make a cleric work. You have everything you need to succeed with amazing buff spells, the ability to mix it up in melee as easily as anyone else, and the cleric spell list is basically perfect for this role. When your front line paladin needs less support, you can focus on other things too, making you more able to adapt to the changing flow of combat.
My ideal party though would probably be: Alchemist, Magus, Inquisitor, Warpriest just to keep everyone playing around the same tier.
My party to crush encounters.
1) ecclisitheurge cleric of Azathoth.
2) evangelist cleric of RA.
3) theologian cleric of fire deity X.
4) a battle cleric.
Like it.... although I say be a bit daring and make it an all Dark Tapestry party with a few tweaks!!
1) Samsaran (Mystic Past Life)of Azathoth, Ecclesitheurge (Scribe scroll build), Dreamed Secrets feat, Arcane Savant PrC
This is your have every spell in the book guy, very squishy but in the right party... v.useful!
2) Instead of Evangelist, try a Half Elf Herald Caller of Shub-Niggurath with the Feather Domain..... you are now a summoning monster AND have an animal companion to ride around on causing havoc!
Bolt on Dreamed Secrets for extra loving! Can potentially be the skill monkey with Evangelist PrC.
3)A Human Theologian of Mhar - Fire/Ash with Exalted PrC and bonus domain of Earth..... you focus on blasting and battlefield control with pit spells.... spell focus and specialise in evocation so you can lay waste to enemy groups with high CL Blasphemy spells.
4) Dwarven battle cleric of Yog-Sothoth....Separatist..(Travel and War/Tactics) focus on being the group buffer and tank. Steel soul for extra spell protection.
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Some of the ideas on this thread are actually pretty good for a villain party for the GM to use.
4 summoners. One synth, one master, on unchained, and one normal for variety.
I mean... I don't know if this is -actually- true, but it's probably close enough. I'd just take 4 wizards-- assuming that I had certain assurances. That is to say, the ability to choose the character's point buy and the knowledge of what character build options might be banned by the GM.
I think that's about all you'd need, ever, for anything, excepting maybe an incredible amount of patience to research spell choices and archetype combinations.
Witch with misfortune hex and cackle. An improved familiar that can cast bungle is great to make sure your misfortune hits and sticks.
Druid with an archetype that lets him summon as a standard action (Saurian Shaman is the most flexible)
Barbarian, invulnerable rager, or Ranger, core, preferably a Dwarf with steel soul and, if you're feeling crazy, the trait that boosts hardy even further.
Paladin, core.
The druid, his animal companion, the dwarf, and the Paladin are all bruisers with great saves and toughness, so your party can take some hits. Your witch makes every real threat reroll everything, which is brutal, and uses battlefield control spells otherwise. Your druid has all the amazing flexibility of 9 levels of divine spellcasting and wild shape. You're ready for just about anything.
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Best Combo ever:
Intelligent Player with any class. :)
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1) Beastbonded Witch
2) Dreamweaver Witch
3) Shaman (life/slums)
4) Hexcrafter Magus
All with Coven Hex. They each pitch in 6 grand as soon as they have it and make a Coven Collar
A Coven of casters with piles of curses. Four familiars, all with wands of Ill Omen.
Such laugh. So curse. Wow.
Would you believe I never knew about the herald caller? In that case I would just forgo a battle cleric in the traditional sense. Instead I would make the battle cleric a herald caller with demon domain or tactics and TWF (dex based). At low levels against undead bring two wakizashi (half elf to gain prof) and go to town. Then later just summon the army for the evangelist. With the herald caller you can now free up the evangelist burning feats for summoning and now the evangelist has freed up feats form item creation.
As module creator I don't know how you can beat this four man party without making it a GM vs party situation.
ON ANOTHER NOTE: you mention a theme of those who worship the dark tapestry deities.... It's concievable to also run a light or no armor cleric theme that looks almost identical. Would be especially good for a cult or similar group for a story. Who needs AC if your never attacked?
You could do your idea but I do feel that part of what makes a good Herald Caller is making proper use of your single domain..... having that animal companion (prob dinosaur) about makes melee that much better. Sacred Summons the troops in and then next turn Blessing of Fervour for buffage!!
And Dwarves make great battle clerics especially with spells like Mighty Strength.
With the 4 that I listed you could have 2 neg channelers and 2 pos channelers to make sure healing was taken care of.
But hey with a Dark Tapestry party all things are possible!!! :0)
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Definitely. In fact I co-GMed a campaign where my main Cleric character became the antagonist at the end of the story. I basically used the bad touch cleric in my main post. The cleric of Azathoth was defeated by the 4 PCs in a 4 on 1 fight. Yet despite this the cleric of Azathoth killed 2 of the four. It was a truly epic confrontation thanks to my co GM an lead writer. Point being just one of the clerics mentioned in here by me or silver surfer can decimate some parties and is a reasonable villain for any party.Some of the ideas on this thread are actually pretty good for a villain party for the GM to use.
The key to any cleric BBEG is:
1) Optimised build and kit for Blasphemy spell
2) Some troops to sweep up the bodies afterwards... ;)
If you're not slotting a Paladin I'd say your group is sub-optimal. Class is way too strong in AP's at all levels to not deserve at least one slot.
And 4 wizards, really? You'll need to be very lucky to finish even the first chapter, or you'll have to rely on a weak/forgiving GM. Even god Wizards need front liners - what are you gonna do staff strike everything to death?
In my experience you don't need a frontliner at low levels. Especially from levels 1-4, stats are more important than class - a wizard with 16 STR isn't that bad in the front lines with the right spells to back it up. I ran a campaign for an Arcanist and Shaman (that was it, just 2 people) and the Shaman only had 10 strength but still managed a high AC and relied on Shillelagh for damage. It was surprisingly effective. They didn't actually need a martial character until nearly Level 6 when monsters started getting too much hp to whittle down.
Given the composition of most APs:
1) Paladin. Strong tank, good healer, and very high damage vs. evil foes (which are common in APs); especially effective against dragons, evil outsiders, and undead; possible face. For versatility (if desired and the generation method is forgiving), invest in 13 Int (for added Skill Ranks) and Unsanctioned Knowledge (for access to a few more powerful spells).
2) Cleric, Druid, or Oracle. Buffer, healer, and tank (depending on class and archetype/domain(s)/mystery, the focus can vary between the roles); possible blasting.
3) [Fighter or ranger] 1/[arcanist or wizard] 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +X. Archer, battlefield control, blasting, buffer, and utility.
4) Bard or witch. Buffer/debuffer, healer, and utility; depending on class and archetype (and patron, if a witch), could add face, locks/traps, summoning, etc.
This group covers all the bases, with enough overlap that multiple characters can act in the various roles, protecting against single points of failure or inability to contribute in different circumstances ("one-trick-ponies").
Best Combo ever:
Intelligent Player with any class. :)
Also, this.
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I'll just repost my answer from another thread with explanation:
I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams. I'll unpack exactly what synergies make this combination so strong.
Druid - Druids can fill a number of roles in party from front line meleer, to battlefield control, to healing, to skills especially very important WIS skills like Perception. Especially helpful during early levels 1-5 where the Animal Companion is an extremely reliable free combatant. The Druids effectiveness tapers off at the higher levels, but can still perform it's roles well.
Master Summoner - Wielding a Skill Eidolon and a versatile long duration set of summoned monsters, the Master Summoner is mostly Battlefield control via Summon and buffing. Master Summoner's get a number of valuable buff spells "early" which helps make the low levels much easier. Can use their Eidolon as a powerful skill user as the Skilled Evolution is an incredible +8 at low levels with important skills like Perception and Sense Motive as Class Skills. At later levels, Master Summoners become versatile problem solvers using the massive toolbox Summon Monster provides to address problems on the fly. Doubles as a face.
Shaman - In counter to the Druid and Master Summoner, the Shaman is aiming for the late game. At low levels, the Shaman is at their weakest (particularly level 1), but eventually grows into a much more powerful and even more versatile problem solver. Can cover a variety of roles simply by switching spirits, and can prepare key spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list at the earliest possible level. Serves mostly as a debuffer, providing Save or Die Slumber from level 2. Synergizes very well with the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer by converting Sorcerer/Wizard spells with expensive material components into divine scrolls, which the Sorcerer can use cost free out of a 1 level higher spell slot.
Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer - In terms of set-up this character takes the longest to get going. Thanks to Sage, the Sorcerer can use INT which has the side-effect of giving the Sorcerer a ton of skills to put to use. Covers the Trapfinding role with help from Aram Zey's Focus. Can also be a highly effective face with correct traits. Covers battlefield control and debuffing with Sorcerer list. Works as a back up healer thanks to Divine Scrolls at level 9+. Works in combination with Shaman to get party access to powerful cost free spells. At high levels, the Sorcerer can fill all roles effectively while providing a massive amount of skills, early spell access, and a staggering amount of high cost spells at no cost.
In this set-up the Druid/Summoner shine early on while while the Shaman and Sorcerer take over at later levels. All of them can cover a number of roles and have a lot of flexibility and unique abilities to bring to the table.
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If you're not slotting a Paladin I'd say your group is sub-optimal. Class is way too strong in AP's at all levels to not deserve at least one slot.
And 4 wizards, really? You'll need to be very lucky to finish even the first chapter, or you'll have to rely on a weak/forgiving GM. Even god Wizards need front liners - what are you gonna do staff strike everything to death?
I agree with both points here, although the second one for different reasons.
Since AP was stated in the first post, a paladin is almost always good for an AP (skull and shackles, not so much...), making them a powerhouse early on and into the late game. They're dependable at avoiding saving throws and the self healing is just amazing, making them tanky early on. Later on, they're the best buzz saws for late game opponents.
For wizards, I think past 2 wizards you're getting diminishing returns. 2 wizards, they're great for filling in each other's gaps, but they're not playing the long game. The long game needs a cleric for status removal and other divine stuff that a wizard will have to work around to get, and that's not really super optimal. If we're going to play "super caster party", I'd go diviner wizard, conjuration wizard, vanilla cleric, master summoner summoner.
In my experience you don't need a frontliner at low levels. Especially from levels 1-4, stats are more important than class - a wizard with 16 STR isn't that bad in the front lines with the right spells to back it up. I ran a campaign for an Arcanist and Shaman (that was it, just 2 people) and the Shaman only had 10 strength but still managed a high AC and relied on Shillelagh for damage. It was surprisingly effective. They didn't actually need a martial character until nearly Level 6 when monsters started getting too much hp to whittle down.
In my experience wizards survive low-mid levels largely through kind GMs that are happy to let them cast from the back of the party without interruption!! Back in 3.5 I was even guilty of it myself!.... Not an archer, ninja or save vs fort caster to be seen!!
Throw 4 wizards into an un-tailored adventure with a balanced GM and you will quickly see the difference!
Full BAB classes are sadly undervalued.... :(((
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Cleric, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.I dunno. I think a case can probably be made for Cleric, Druid, Druid, Wizard or Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Wizard. Maybe even Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Bard depending on how the GM rules social skills. Under a GM that lets you try really outrageous bluffs glibness can be stronger than mass charm monster.
You've got one cleric for melee, one cleric for casting (with a pocket fighter if you want), a druid for casting with a pocket fighter, and a wizard for casting. You'll be fine.
And 4 wizards, really? You'll need to be very lucky to finish even the first chapter, or you'll have to rely on a weak/forgiving GM. Even god Wizards need front liners - what are you gonna do staff strike everything to death?