One of my players is asking for a Dwarf with a Str of 40~50. I can curse him in exchange, place penalties, he is accepting whatever to get that Str. He wants to make a character able to lift and handle a maze bigger than himself.
I thought it was overkill, until i see some races like the Flind, from ToHC, with such insane score adjustments. So some humanoids with Str scores of 25~30 are possible, even as characters...
I still think Str 50 is a no! Except allowing him to make a dwarf... machine buried and embedded inside a dwarf factory.
Str 30 is a lot, but not impossible comparing it to monsters like the flind. So it is not going to be a special Str... And 40, dunno, i still think it is TOO much.
any advice? any suggestion?
Edit:
To add details to the question:
- Race: Dwarf
- Level: low level 1~4 lvl; i can add CR or "lvl adjustment" if required
- Class: Paladin
- Usage of that Str: At will; well i have a penalty in mind and it is if he is using Str above certain threshold chances are his curse triggers something really undesirable.
- Additional: He is already cursed by his enemy deity.
At which level and how do you intend to run the game?
Usually a player can start with up to 20 (18 +2 racial) from there they can get +5 bonus from lvling , +5 from the books/wish... , +6 from belt.
Probably can get some other few bonus , but overall at the end it will be +- 36 with everything in at 20.
So at 1 having this and then being able to add said +16 should kill everything with ease.
Flind Gnoll is 3rd Party Material.
Often 3rd Party Material has ... shaky ... balance.
Anyway, what Level? - 20th or 1st?
With what? - Just base - or Enlarged, with items, in rage, with Wish +5'ed?
Level 1? Utterly broken. No way to make up for it without completly destroying his char.
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I think it's balanced as long as you make sure that part of the curse involves this dwarf having a daily ritual. That ritual would obviously be 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
But yeah, unless you're going to do something to really leverage out that strength, that's too high for most parts of the game. Talk to them about possibly lowering it some. Also that Flind effectively starts at 2nd level before ever taking a class level, so that's something to take into account. I'd say the racials are too good regardless of that though.
I updated the original question to add more detail on the character.
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Allow him to have the strength as long as he takes binding and total vow of non-violence.
Compared to a 1st level fighter with a str of 20 a fighter of str 20 has +6 to hit +5 dmg(+7 with 2 handed weapon), your str 40 dwarf has +16 to hit and +15 (+22 with a two hander)
This means he will hit and kill anything a resembling a reasonable opponent for a 1st level party pretty much automatically.
Do you have any other players? If any of them want to fight then this character makes them useless .
Give him a str 40 and a curse which gives him -10 to hit and -10 damage (-15 when two handing a weapon(
I think it's balanced as long as you make sure that part of the curse involves this dwarf having a daily ritual. That ritual would obviously be 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
Hahahahaha! You made my day!
40 is right around what someone can achieve at level 20 after great expense, giving that to them at lower levels is game-breaking unless you also give it to the rest of the party and adjust encounters accordingly (like multiply enemy hp by a lot so they don't die in one hit all the time).
If he wants to accept a drawback for an extra bonus, I'd give a mere +2. He can then work towards the end goal of having piles of Str.
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Sure. Give him 40 Str and reduce all his other stats to 3. Lead a balanced game of both social interactions, roleplay and combat, and he should realize how pointless his 40 Str is.
On a more serious note, no, it's most likely not fair of him to ask such a thing. Yes, you can somewhat balance this out probably, but 40 Str is the Strength of gods, titans and giants. He is unrealistic completely.
I would totally encourage him to try to reach such strength through the campaign though. It might be a cool quest sort off.
Adam
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40 is right around what someone can achieve at level 20 after great expense, giving that to them at lower levels is game-breaking
^This.
To put it in perspective, a character of one of the Core Rulebook races (i.e., the "baseline") can get a 40 Str by:
Starting at 20 Str at 1st level
Adding all advancements (every 4 levels) to Str (+5)
Wearing a belt of giant strength +6 (or similar item)
Taking 4 levels in dragon disciple (+4 Str)
Using 5 wish spells/a manual of gainful exercise +5
Allowing a 1st level character to get the same result, which they can then increase by another +20 as they level up, is pretty overpowered.
If the player wants a character that performs extreme feats of strength, then point them toward barbarian (rage) and/or cleric/inquisitor (Destruction/Rage and/or Strength domains):
Granted Powers: In strength and brawn there is truth—your faith gives you incredible might and power.
Strength Surge (Sp): As a standard action, you can touch a creature to give it great strength. For 1 round, the target gains an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) to melee attacks, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skills, and Strength checks. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Might of the Gods (Su): At 8th level, you can add your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. This bonus only applies on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Associated Domain: Destruction.
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the destructive aura power of the Destruction domain.
Rage (Su): At 8th level, you can enter a fearsome rage, like a barbarian, for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. At 12th and 16th level, you can select one rage power. You cannot select any rage power that possesses a level requirement, but otherwise your barbarian level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level. These rounds of rage stack with any rounds of rage you might have from levels of barbarian.
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I think it's a bad idea. You're looking at the strength level of Ancient Red and Gold dragons for a low level. If you were playing a Blizzard (WoW, Diablo) style game were those numbers were somewhat arbitrary then I'd say rock on.
On a selfish note, as a GM, I'd refuse just because of the added work of making balanced encounters. The best way to handle it is a small bonus, maybe a d6 or d4 roll to his final strength score than work their way to 40 from there. 19 to 24 in strength is still fun for the PC to play out the Hercules fantasy, while still letting you do balanced encounters without going overboard.
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Yes it's overpowered, don't do it.
The highest a player can normally start with is a 22 strength by playing an orc and buying an 18 strength.
If you want to fulfill your players concept to an extent, I suggest allowing them to play a new type of dwarf that gets the stat adjustment of an Orc. +4 to strength, -2 to all mental stats. That is relatively balanced. Even on a fighter or barbarian because it's a only +1 more to attack and damage then they would normally have and the penalties to will saves, skill points, etc are enough of a penalty to balance it out.
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Me and a friend once built a character designed to have as much strength as possible at one moment at level 20. By the end, we had levels of alchemist, barbarian, and a host of other things, most of which were fishing for front loaded class features that grant temp buffs. By then end we had around 55. And we had built for it legally. That was a while ago, and with some of the new stuff I think I could push it to 60.
Alternately, a temple champion paladin (from the Advanced Class Guide) grants one of the cleric domain powers and the warpriest blessings.
Strength Surge (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action you can focus your own strength. You gain an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your warpriest level (minimum +1) on melee attack rolls, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skill checks, and Strength checks for 1 round.
Strength of Will (major): At 10th level, as a swift action you can ignore the movement penalties caused by wearing medium or heavy armor or by carrying a medium or heavy load. This effect lasts for 1 minute. During this time, you can add your Strength modifier on saving throws against effects that would cause you to become entangled, staggered, or paralyzed.
What are you giving all the other players?
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One of my players is asking for a Dwarf with a Str of 40~50. I can curse him in exchange, place penalties, he is accepting whatever to get that Str. He wants to make a character able to lift and handle a maze bigger than himself.
A 50 strength DOESN'T allow the character to handle a mace any better than a 10. Size of weapon and strength aren't related. If he wished to wield an oversized weapon, have him take Titan Fighter. It's focused on wielding oversized weapons, something that 50 strength doesn't do.
Or he could use a Dwarven Longhammer and call it a mace. Take Titan Mauler and you can wield it in one hand. And again, a high strength isn't required.
If he's somehow worried about the weight, feel free to buff his strength JUST for carry allowance. that'll have minimal impact on the game as you're bypassing the hit/damage bonuses.
Compared to a 1st level fighter with a str of 20 a fighter of str 20 has +6 to hit +5 dmg(+7 with 2 handed weapon), your str 40 dwarf has +16 to hit and +15 (+22 with a two hander)
This means he will hit and kill anything a resembling a reasonable opponent for a 1st level party pretty much automatically.Do you have any other players? If any of them want to fight then this character makes them useless .
What are you giving all the other players?
Hmmm... let me think. I managed to balance the things with the other players, the old ones use standard races and classes, the new ones get some extra things, like non-standard races or templates (pixie and ghost in this case) and more levels; well, one of the new players have a standard race and class but she does have additional knowledge on what's going in the world than the others, a pretty nice boost. The one asking for strength is an old character so he is commited to not to break the game and have only 30 Str by now with a hard penalty until we decide what to do.
Buuuut... he didn't come to a session, his character didn't make out of prison and the enemies the party faced had strength in numbers and range weapons just to cope with the strength of that dwarf... but without that dwarf the party was about to be wiped out, just the bard ghost and the wizard managed to save the party, and they were so lucky the ghost had entangle with an insane charisma bonus and through the whole battle the rolls of the bad guys were SOO bad... and even with that, i had to pull out some NPCs they were going to find later in the campaign to come and rescue them. So, now, i know how that just 30 Str could break a game.
Give him a str 40 and a curse which gives him -10 to hit and -10 damage (-15 when two handing a weapon(
Hahahaha! Too cruel!
But i had to admit with that you gave me an idea!
That was not a cruel suggestion. Actually I would just have used the N word on the whole concept or run the campaign in a different system such as a superhero system which suits that sort of character concept.
That was not a cruel suggestion. Actually I would just have used the N word on the whole concept or run the campaign in a different system such as a superhero system which suits that sort of character concept.
I'm not actually sure what the concept is. 40 strength isn't a concept.
Wielding huge weapons,.... That's a concept, but that's the Titan Mauler and you don't need any specific strength score for it.
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A 40 STR at first level is utterly and completely out of balance. At low levels your stats are the most important thing about your character. Even class and race have less impact than stats. As you level up the stats actually become less important and class features begin to become more important. For example a 1st level elf wizard with a 20 STR will be a better swordsman than the fighter with a 10 STR. Around 4th or 5th level your class starts to become more important and the elf wizard is no longer a better swordsman. With a 40 STR this would put his damage about equal to a mid to high level fighter.
There is no real way you could balance this without breaking the game. Any penalty you give him to try and balance this would have to cripple the character in all other ways. Even if you give the other players something equally powerful balancing the game vs these characters is going to change the game to the point where you are not running Pathfinder.
If you want to run something over the top I suggest you look into the Mythic rules. They are very powerful, but at least you have a framework to work within. Also a mythic character can achieve stats this high just not at first level. There are also mythic abilities that allow him to do feats of great strength without having game breaking stats.
And I thought I was Xtreme!
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I think it's balanced as long as you make sure that part of the curse involves this dwarf having a daily ritual. That ritual would obviously be 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.But yeah, unless you're going to do something to really leverage out that strength, that's too high for most parts of the game. Talk to them about possibly lowering it some. Also that Flind effectively starts at 2nd level before ever taking a class level, so that's something to take into account. I'd say the racials are too good regardless of that though.
That workout regimen is easier than basic infantry training. The run is only a mile longer than standard, and the rest are a warm up. ;-)
Well, the concept is a dwarf male with herculean strength. He is devoted to the old gods, cause a foreign pantheon's schedule is to wipe them, hence the Paladin class.
The foreign pantheon cursed him, not going into the details of the curse, enough is to say it gives him a +6 Str with a cost. To counter it the old local pantheon countered the curse, and, again, not going into details, enough is to say it gives him another +6 Str with no cost.
The cost of the curse is, if he uses the last 6 points of his strength, chances are the curse triggers/calls/spawns/invoke a threat to capture him and kill his allies or anyone else standing in its way and additional chances for the curse to take control of his body, enough is to say he would be able to kill his own party in that scenario.
To flavor the campaign i like it a lot. The paladin of the party is himself cursed by his most hatted enemies dealing with it and devoting to do all in his mortal power to defend the old gods and even revive some dead ones. But about rules... it is a thing i don't want to make as weak as a +2 bonus or make it a complete nightmare.
For what you are saying, i should give to the other PCs and NPC allies some extras, and the bad guys are going to come with some surprises too. I'd cape it at 30 and he'll have to work hard to get the rest of the desired strength. I'm unsure if the curse penalty is enough to balance him...
Actually I would just have used the N word on the whole concept or run the campaign in a different system such as a superhero system which suits that sort of character concept.
Sadly not, the superhero system is too different for what we want as you can read above. We want an herculean strength...
I have to admit, for the herculean stuff... the Mythic rules would work...
That workout regimen is easier than basic infantry training. The run is only a mile longer than standard, and the rest are a warm up. ;-)100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
houstonderek, it is not a real training, it is a fine joke, google that training and you'll get it... a hint, it is a strict lifestyle that allow a character to kill almost any foe with one punch...
Back to the topic... what if i give him just 30 Str and a level adjustment for it? What are your suggestions?
Please read three posts above to understand the background of that PC...
Back to the topic... what if i give him just 30 Str and a level adjustment for it? What are your suggestions?
Please read three posts above to understand the background of that PC...
Well, 30 strength is less unbalancing than 40 strength, I'll give you that. I'm still not seeing why you can't just build him a typical Titan Mauler with a typical "superhuman" strength, but that's your call.
Basically, as far as I can tell, the conversation is going like this.
* I want to drive to Riverbottom. Will I get there if I drive fifty miles down this road?
* Er, no. That road doesn't go to Riverbottom. Driving fifty miles down that road will just put you fifty miles out of your way.
* Oh. That's disappointing. How about if I only drive twenty-five miles down that road instead?
You're still looking at a +10 to attacks and damage. That's still bulldozing through early game play, and probably putting things on easy mode. Not a problem if that's the game you want, Gods know sometimes you just want to kick in a door and smite a balor.
I think that no higher than 24 is fair, if that's what you want to go. Mythic rules will play in perfectly for your blessings and curses backstory. 24 you should only have to modify combat encounters with marginal efffot. A template here or there or a few extra mooks, nothing too time consuming.
I'd be interested in hearing what the other pcs get out of this.
He needs heavy penalties. Normally someone would have 30 STR by 15+. He is level 1.
Further this will only create a massive disparity in the party, as he will be so strong, that you'll need to buff enemies to accommodate his damage, while leaving everyone else weaker.
How about this. Give him 30 STR, and between 5-8 in his other stats. Let him at least have 12 CHA also so his paladin isn't completely gimped.
This way he gets his great strength, while gimping his others. Sounds like a curse to me. Also I'd make it so anything he touches he runs a risk of crushing as he can't control his own strength.
As mentioned before, add a hefty dose of additional non-combat content to make him feel less useful so he realizes how terrible of an idea he had also.
Your current curse might or might not be a huge issue , apparently it is more of a plot thing than a real issue since , probably you wont spawn anything that could actually kill the whole party and capture the PC, otherwise the game would just end.
I would also ask the party if they are ok with this PC even being created , since it not only spawns enemies that want to kill them , but also might actually turn on them at some point , all ofc part of the plot , but make sure all the players are into it since it isnt your usual run.
On a side note , i dont have experience with this kind of thing , usually i just give extra toys to all PCs so everyone is happy and then i make enemies stronger to fit the PCs power when i want a game with this kind of setting.
Mythic has that display of STR right , might take ideas from there.
Simply put starting with stats significantly higher than normal will unbalance the campaign. Having him attacked by monsters if he uses the extra strength does not balance it out. If the monsters are level appropriate all this does is give him extra experience points. If the monsters are overpowering like they should be they will kill him and the party the first time.
Flinds are not balanced because they were never intended as a player character race. They are designed to allow the GM to create adventures using gnolls that are more challenging.
One thing that could give the player something close to what he wants would be rage. Normally a paladin cannot rage because of the alignment restriction. Strangely enough the VMC rules do not seem to have any alignment restrictions so you could use that. Even if there were rules you as a GM can overrule them. This would be a lot less overpowering than allowing a straight up 30-40 STR. The stonelord paladin actually already has a similar ability. Maybe you player should take a look at that.
Yeah 40 Str is overboard no matter the level. The idea of a Curse Feat sounds interesting however, giving a passive benefical ability and a benefical ability they can activate with a reasonably nasty consequence.
For the dwarf I'd have him use a Feat slot and give him double his Str in Weight Capacity and double Str in any ability checks and damage against inanimate objects but his normal Str with skill checks, attack and damage rolls. That would be the passive ability, the ability he could activate is having double his Str count for attack and damage rolls for 1 or 2 rounds. If he chooses 1 round then he is Fatigued for 4 rounds after, if he chooses 2 rounds he is exhausted for 4 rounds after then fatigued for 4 rounds after that. What do you think?
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The cost of the curse is, if he uses the last 6 points of his strength, chances are the curse triggers/calls/spawns/invoke a threat to capture him and kill his allies or anyone else standing in its way and additional chances for the curse to take control of his body, enough is to say he would be able to kill his own party in that scenario.
This is a penalty to his players and not to him. What character in their right mind would want to adventure with potential death threat?
Yeah, 40 or even 30 Strength at low levels will be game-breaking. It'll either result in a) constant party casualties because you have to increase the difficulties of all the encounters and the other players won't be as powerful as the dwarf, or b) this one guy dominating all the combats and boring everyone else to tears. Or both. Mythic rules would be better if you want a really powerful game, but they should be given to everyone in the party, then.
40 Strength takes a lot of effort to achieve at 20th level, let alone 1st.
Well, the concept is a dwarf male with herculean strength. He is devoted to the old gods, cause a foreign pantheon's schedule is to wipe them, hence the Paladin class.
Keep in mind that, in-universe, the average ability score is 10. A PC with even 15-20 strength has "herculean" strength compared to everybody else in the world. He could have a 20 Strength and still be considered incredibly strong.
Ask him very carefully if he wants the 'to hit and damage' bonuses from that str score, OR if he just wants the lift/carry ability (which will be in the eight ton range, or about half as strong as spider-man).
If it's the former, flat out deny him with a cold stare.
If it's the latter, go ahead and let him, with the caveat that this 'super strength' does not increase as he increases his 'real' strength score, he's simply learning how to use and catch up to it. It also does not remove the size penalty for wielding a larger weapon, it just lets him do so in the first place.
So you'll have a dwarf who uses an oversized weapon and can carry a lot, but gets NO str bonuses to anything else, including bend bars and combat manuvers.
IT'll be flavorful, and he gets to talk about how he'll lift a tree, but mostly it'll be thematic. You might want to give hm a bonus to lifting up and throwing giants, however.
==Aelryinth
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I think it's balanced as long as you make sure that part of the curse involves this dwarf having a daily ritual. That ritual would obviously be 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
Also known as, 'training so intense it will make his beard fall off.'
==Aelryinth
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People need to chill a bit lols , it all depends on the game you want to play and the players you have.
Im currently playing one where my friend wanted to play a natural lycan druid , she had 27 STR with 3 natural atks and reach at level 1.
Was this a problem? Not really , because we all were into it , we all agreed to it and the GM changed to game to fit it. We are all having fun.
I think it's balanced as long as you make sure that part of the curse involves this dwarf having a daily ritual. That ritual would obviously be 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
Also known as, 'training so intense it will make his beard fall off.'
==Aelryinth
Only problem is that rituals like that get handwaved. It's only as much of a problem as the GM and player make it; usually, I've found that it gets mentioned now and then and only comes up on the rare occasion that you get captured or whatnot.
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Hulk really f#%+ shit up with 40 strength!!!
Back to the topic... what if i give him just 30 Str and a level adjustment for it? What are your suggestions?
Please read three posts above to understand the background of that PC...
Well, 30 strength is less unbalancing than 40 strength, I'll give you that. I'm still not seeing why you can't just build him a typical Titan Mauler with a typical "superhuman" strength, but that's your call.
Basically, as far as I can tell, the conversation is going like this.
* I want to drive to Riverbottom. Will I get there if I drive fifty miles down this road?
* Er, no. That road doesn't go to Riverbottom. Driving fifty miles down that road will just put you fifty miles out of your way.
* Oh. That's disappointing. How about if I only drive twenty-five miles down that road instead?
Then you didn't get what i said or i didn't make myself clear.
I'll give him level adjustment, not actual levels. So he has the features of a lvl 1 Paladin, but counts as lvl 4; so to get from lvl 1 to lvl 2 he has to actually get the experience to move from lvl 4 to lvl 5, for example. This way he is not going to get two attacks per round at 6 level but at 9 lvl. And the foes he kills are not really providing him that much XP. In the long run he'll be balanced with the other characters, cause what he'll be doing is giving them extra XP.
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houstonderek, it is not a real training, it is a fine joke, google that training and you'll get it... a hint, it is a strict lifestyle that allow a character to kill almost any foe with one punch...That workout regimen is easier than basic infantry training. The run is only a mile longer than standard, and the rest are a warm up. ;-)100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats, and a 10 km run.
Every.
Single.
Day.
Ah, anime. No wonder I missed the reference.
I would have given him a +30 to calculating strength for encumbrance/lifting purposes.
Easier to adjust encounters for.
In the long run he'll be balanced with the other characters, cause what he'll be doing is giving them extra XP.
If he's soloing encounters for 5 levels, there might not be a long run.
Keep in mind that, in-universe, the average ability score is 10. A PC with even 15-20 strength has "herculean" strength compared to everybody else in the world. He could have a 20 Strength and still be considered incredibly strong.
Not really. Hercules was able to take the place of Atlas in holding the heavens and fighting some mythic creatures. Anyway, with that strength we mean strength like Samson, Hercules, Obelix (xD) and alike.
I have a PFS barbarian rage chemist.
level 9
20 str, rage+4, mutagen +6, +4 enhancement, +2 size.
This is a 36 strength that comes with some weaknesses. Plus some dedication.
So it is not horribly broken. He can do some massive damage, but it takes a couple rounds of prep.